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Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
You missed the point. It's irrelevant what the purpose of the individual rules are, I could care less for the reasons for the rules. The point is how many of those other laws you are breaking yet still you stand on the pulpit. In other words it's the hypocrisy of yelling from a soapbox that Leviticus 18: 22 is the law and gay people are damned but then you yourself are breaking several of laws (trimming your beard, cutting your hair at the edges, shaving, clothing,). It's nothing more than hypocrisy. Now If you don't mind being a hypocrite keep on quoting Leviticus.
By the way a mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.
I'll feel like a hypocrite when I start judging people, I'm not. I'm warning people. I don't need Jesus any less today than I did the day I gave him my life and let him keep it. There having been several times prior to that last that I took it back so I could do with it what I want.
What you don't understand is that all those outward things are according to the New Testament just 'ritual' and as Jesus said in John 4 when talking to the woman of Samaria that, 'God is looking for those who will worship him in Spirit and in Truth.'
Jesus has done away with the 'ritual' (other than Communion) like trimming the beard and mixing the clothes and what not and like YTown said, gentiles are not 'under the law' with regards to things like that.
Moral law, yes we're expected to follow. But again, like YTown said, if we fall-we ask forgiveness and we're forgiven.
By the way, didn't know that about mules! Thank You. 
Wait a minute! (Had to edit to ask this question.) I thought a mule was a different name for a donkey! Guess that explains Jesus having no problem riding on an ass in the New Testament.
Last edited by MrTed; 07/06/13 09:36 PM.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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What's with the horrid blue text? Can't even read it. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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There's a lot I don't get about this board. The most readable colors I found are the scarlet lettering on the gray background and I didn't know what other colors might have meant. Like what's the sarcastic color I've seen mentioned.
Also, every time I click on an emoticon in a post I'm quoting no matter where I put the cursor the emoticon always shows up at the very bottom of the post, same with choosing a color for a font no matter where I want to put it.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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I want start and say I am confused. Hopefully you won't mind me clarifying: Quote:
I'll feel like a hypocrite when I start judging people, I'm not. I'm warning people.
Since you are only warning people you don't mind when gay people get married or have relationships? For example if you saw a gay couple kissing what would be your response? I mean if you view those things as amoral, groos or detestable isn't that passing judgement?
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What you don't understand is that all those outward things are according to the New Testament just 'ritual' and as Jesus said in John 4 when talking to the woman of Samaria that, 'God is looking for those who will worship him in Spirit and in Truth.'
So is every law in Leviticus ritual or not? Who gets to decide which laws in Leviticus are merely ritual?
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Jesus has done away with the 'ritual' (other than Communion) like trimming the beard and mixing the clothes and what not and like YTown said, gentiles are not 'under the law' with regards to things like that.
Isn't this just selectively choosing? This seems arbitrary to me. If Jesus did away with the old testament why does everything get whitewashed but this? In the new testament there is no reference to gay men or women and Jesus to my knowledge never said anything about the gay lifestyle that's why people rely on Leviticus.
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Moral law, yes we're expected to follow. But again, like YTown said, if we fall-we ask forgiveness and we're forgiven.
So gay men and women can enter the kingdom of heaven if they ask forgiveness for their sins?
Do you see the issue people have with someone says well all those ritual ones I no longer follow aren't really enforced but that 1 in there that doesn't apply to my lifestyle it sure does.?
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
You missed the point. It's irrelevant what the purpose of the individual rules are, I could care less for the reasons for the rules. The point is how many of those other laws you are breaking yet still you stand on the pulpit. In other words it's the hypocrisy of yelling from a soapbox that Leviticus 18: 22 is the law and gay people are damned but then you yourself are breaking several of laws (trimming your beard, cutting your hair at the edges, shaving, clothing,). It's nothing more than hypocrisy. Now If you don't mind being a hypocrite keep on quoting Leviticus.
By the way a mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.
Yup.
You're either all-in, or you're selectively choosing.
If you're all-in, you're nuts.
If you're selectively choosing ... is it really sacred?
In my opinion, the character of Jesus Christ was more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
Actually, Jesus Christ lived the perfect life according to the Law. He lived that life for us, so that we who believe in Him could be redeemed and saved through Him. Thus, because we are saved and redeemed through Him, we are not bound by the Law.
That does not mean that we have a free hand to sin as we desire, and still expect to be saved. We will sin, because we are imperfect creatures. However, if we truly repent of our sins, and ask for forgiveness, it is given.
Repentance itself implies that the sinner will try to remove him/herself from the sinful situation though. For example, a man cannot pretend to repent his sin with a woman who is not his wife while continuing to live with her "in sin".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Combing your hair, eating this or that-ritual. Adultery, rape, sodomy-conduct. Pretty easy to me.
True, Jesus didn't say anything specifically. The only thing I can point to that he said was 'in the beginning he made them male and female.' When chastising the Pharisees about divorce. In the New Testament (which is just as much the Word of God to me as the 4 Gospels) the apostle Paul is the one that addressed same sex relationships specifically.
Who gets to decide what is ritual and who does not? All I can refer you to is the apostle Paul and like YTown said, gentiles are not required to follow the 'ritual' like ancient Israel was. The things gentile believers were commanded to follow were outlined in the book of Acts which had to do with morality and charity and 'things strangled' (whatever that means), the one dietary restriction in the New Testament.
I don't get to 'mind' whether or not gay people get married, like I said I'm not judging I'm warning. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Why? I've made that clear. I don't agree with the way I used to live before Christ either. I'm just standing up for the values I BELIEVE to be the values and standards of an omnipotent Creator and pleading with those who don't know him yet that it's in their eternal best interest to get to know him.
I certainly see the issue people have with this, and I'll be honest-as a house painter I've worked with gay men (they really are good interior designers). Very polite, very professional people. Did I say anything about my faith? No, never found a way to share it that wouldn't be off putting in that environment.
Is this selective choosing? No. Like I said before, combing your hair or what you eat isn't going to send you to hell, Jesus even talked about that with the disciples, 'It's not what goes into a man that defiles him,.... but what comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye (don't know what that means), blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these things come from within, and defile the man.'
How's that for who decides what gets done away with and what doesn't?
Would a gay man get in if they asked forgiveness? As a forgiven sinner, all I can say is I hope so. My fear for those in the gay community is that they're seeking heavenly approval for something that is according to the Bible not going to be approved, but from my perspective I understand the struggle to overcome something God doesn't approve of.
I think the main problem modern christianity has is the spirit in which we've shared our faith, particularly on t.v. and in public and I've been guilty of this also.
It's gotten to be a competition for 'my superior teaching and opinion' rather than my genuine concern for your soul ONLY. The Bible does say to earnestly contend for the faith, but not in a self righteous preachy attitude. I don't know if I'm explaining that correctly (and I know I'm new here) but I apologize.
Gotta go, time to work on a paint estimate.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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Quote:
In my opinion, the character of Jesus Christ was more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
The book of Ezekiel talks about God writing his law on the tablets of our hearts, and taking out our heart of stone and putting in a heart of flesh.
What would you call the spirit of the law? I don't know if you know this, but that's a pretty close quote of 2 Corinthians 3:6 talking about how, '...for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.'
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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The politicians wouldn't have it any other way.
That's probably a whole lot closer to The Truth than most of us really want to consider, jfan.
Now, j/c for general conversation:
When the DOMA was signed into law, I was upset, to say the least. I thought that it was a calculated move on WJ Clinton's part to garner another term in office- and I hated that it was so political in nature. It was also too reminiscent of seeing state and federal law that legally upheld the oppression of My Own Family- for hundreds of years. To see it visited upon other American citizens in any other way, was an eye-opener- to say the least. I saw it then- as I do now still- as an overt act to suppress an entire group of Americans' rights to live their lives with a reasonable expectation of equality with other Americans.
In the mind of a moral, just man- how could this be deemed acceptable, let alone legal? If said man was the beneficiary of the hard work done by his forbears, how could he not stand up against oppression/suppression of his his fellow citizens without being a hypocrite?
____________
I'll freely admit to my "Angry Young Black Man" persona during my early adulthood, without apologies. I made my stands/said my piece/paid my dues. I learned from Life's lessons. At the same time, I'll openly embrace my "Angry Gray Man," as I support this newest move in America's evolution.
When I think about the 400+ year history of This Country, it's still very hard to believe that I am the very first generation of My Family who was able to legally vote in all 50 states. Most of My Family has been north of the Mason/Dixon Line for generations, so the rights they learned to take for granted were not always shared by their Family 'Down South'.... It's only been during my lifetime that Federal Law allows Me & Mine to live wherever, and expect the same rights everywhere. Think about this: I was almost a Jr.Hi student when it became legal for My Grandfather to vote anywhere in America.
In America.
In 400 years of occupancy and 237 years of Official Governance, My Bunch has only been considered 'totally legit' for a mere 48 years (...think about those numbers for a minute... then come along on this ride with me-).
It's now 2013.
A new group of Americans have just now gained legal rights that My Grandparents sacrificed for me to get. White People. Hispanic People. People from other continents. ALL of them have a shot at full rights that were only a dream for some, just 3 generations ago.
3 generations.
Less than 75 years.
How can I not be happy for them, without being a total hypocrite? How can I not be happy for them, and yet sad for us all... that Some Americans will have spent every share of their energy to keep other Americans from enjoying the same freedoms and rights that are taken for granted by so many others?
Any day that America can break down another convention that limits the rights of any of its citizens is a good day, IMHO.
There comes a time when every nation must eventually grow up. We might just be living in The Times where it's happening for our nation. Those times will no doubt be very tumultuous.... but also very cool, at the same time- because as we stumble along- we're making history.
For me, this issue has never been about religious views/practice. It's always been about the rights of Fellow Americans.
And until we're all truly free- none of us us has truly achieved 'freedom.'
.02,
Clemdawg.
I know for a fact that to many blacks, equating the plight of blacks to that of gays is offensive and insulting. You're so out of line on this one sport.
Perhaps being an angry black man and your intense struggle for equal rights caused you to become a bit irrational...."over doing it" so to speak.
Yep, ever since the sting of the lash was felt upon their backs, gays have come a long way...gays can now drink from heterosexual water fountains, don't have to sit in the back of the bus, can go to the same schools as straight people, don't have to worry dogs and fire hoses unleashed upon them, can vote, have jobs...and now are finally free to have their perverted lifestyles validated as a "marriage"...
FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, GAYS ARE FREE AT LAST! lol 
You mention that whites, hispanics, and peoples from other continents all having a shot at free rights that was one time was only a dream...In case you weren't aware, gays belong to those groups of whites, hispanics and peoples from other countries. They became the beneficiaries of rights along with everyone else in their respective culture.
So stop with this "rights" b.s.
This isn't about rights, it's about a minority of crybabies whining about wanting something they are not eligible or qualified to have...so now we gotta screw up the true meaning of marriage at the expense of the majority. Sorry, but life is not fair for any of us. I don't believe a legally blind man should be allowed to have a drivers license either. They don't qualify, so call me a bigot.
You're delusional in thinking that this country is going forward... it's going backward, as in the days of ancient Greece and Rome where perverted sexual acts of homosexuality and pedophilia were practiced openly and accepted as being normal and healthy. Ironically, socialism, and the moral decay of it's people are two (of many) factors that contributed to the fall of Rome.
Not long ago most blacks did not approve of gay marriage...until the "Messiah" Obama flip-flopped his view back in 2011...following their savior like sheep, many blacks now believe that gay marriage is cool. Curious, are you that guy?
Actually this fraud Obama didn't really flip-flop in 2011, what he did was lie in 2008.
He lied in 2008 when he said that marriage is between a man and woman in order to get elected.
It should be apparent to everyone by now that Obama is clearly gay.
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Quote:
What would you call the spirit of the law?
I'm leaving shortly. so forget the curt answer, but what I meant when I said that was that when Jesus had harsh words, it was more often than not with moralists or hypocrites, rather than the sinners themselves. He was more concerned about the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.
If you'd like to talk more on that, I'll try to respond tomorrow.
I come from an agnostic point of view that leans toward atheist, but I think that Jesus Christ is someone that we should all try to be like.
I just don't see too many invoking his name trying to do so.
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It should be apparent to everyone by now that Obama is clearly gay.
Wow, that's the conclusion of your rant? 
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Quote:
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It should be apparent to everyone by now that Obama is clearly gay.
Wow, that's the conclusion of your rant?
Epic.
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~ Legend
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It should be apparent to everyone by now that Obama is clearly gay.
Wow, that's the conclusion of your rant?
Epic.
You called it though. Pedophilia by page 5. Remind me to never wager with you again.
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These topics stick to a script .
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I know for a fact that to many blacks, equating the plight of blacks to that of gays is offensive and insulting. You're so out of line on this one sport.
1. I don't care. Discrimination of any sort is antithetical to the principles upon which this nation was founded.
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You mention that whites, hispanics, and peoples from other continents all having a shot at free rights that was one time was only a dream...In case you weren't aware, gays belong to those groups of whites, hispanics and peoples from other countries. They became the beneficiaries of rights along with everyone else in their respective culture.
So stop with this "rights" b.s.
...and yet, they still weren't allowed by law to marry whomever they wished. So... my "rights" argument isn't really bs after all.
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This isn't about rights, it's about a minority of crybabies whining about wanting something they are not eligible or qualified to have...so now we gotta screw up the true meaning of marriage at the expense of the majority.
False- from the start. It IS about equal rights, whether you try to change the narrative or not. An entire segment of America's population has been systematically (and legally) barred from one of the most basic of rights enjoyed by the rest of us. How is this NOT discrimination?
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Not long ago most blacks did not approve of gay marriage...until the "Messiah" Obama flip-flopped his view back in 2011...following their savior like sheep, many blacks now believe that gay marriage is cool. Curious, are you that guy?
No. In my profession, I've worked beside openly gay people for more than 30 years. I've held these beliefs long before any of us knew who Barack Obama was.
__________
Here's the deal: I believe that MY marriage is defined as one man wedded to one woman... but it's not my place to define marriage for anyone else. And I won't stand in support of any policy which makes it legal to suppress another citizen's rights.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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In the new testament there is no reference to gay men or women and Jesus to my knowledge never said anything about the gay lifestyle that's why people rely on
Yes there is and I quoted it once in another thread and I got the "well, it's only mentioned once in one New Testament book so it can't be too important otherwise it would be mentioned more"
The Views Expressed By Me Are Not Necessarily The Views That You Will Agree With, I'm In My Own Little World But They Know Me Here.
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Technically, but only one father, and he wasn't the one his mom was married to. God ignored his own views of sanctity of marriage to knock up a married chick against her knowledge and will. The first use of Roofies, perhaps? Divine rape? Of course, his view is that he gave her a gift, but he's going to put a positive spin on his perspective, isn't he? He certainly wouldn't paint himself to be the bad guy. Prisons are full of guys like him.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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There is debate as to what age Mary was as well. Some say young (12-14), others put her at at least 20.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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That potentially explains a lot about the Catholic church.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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You're in rare form today!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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You're in rare form today!
He really is...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Technically, but only one father, and he wasn't the one his mom was married to. God ignored his own views of sanctity of marriage to knock up a married chick against her knowledge and will. The first use of Roofies, perhaps? Divine rape? Of course, his view is that he gave her a gift, but he's going to put a positive spin on his perspective, isn't he? He certainly wouldn't paint himself to be the bad guy. Prisons are full of guys like him.
He's probably got a picture of his kid on his desk. 
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I have to disagree with your comments and laugh at them at the same time bro. I will just leave it with "I love you man" Hands Purp my last Diet Coke as I know you would prefer that to my last Bud Light.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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For what it's worth: Quote:
cleveland.com
'Freedom to Marry' amendment picks up support from noted Republican
Brandon Blackwell, The Plain Dealer By Brandon Blackwell, The Plain Dealer
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on July 08, 2013 at 8:00 PM, updated July 08, 2013 at 8:02 PM
Gay marriage ruling by Supreme Court celebrated in Cleveland, across the nationThe City of Cleveland raised a rainbow pride flag under the Stars and Stripes above the City Hall today June 26, 2013 to celebrate the Supreme Court rulings in a pair of major victories for the gay rights movement.John Kuntz / The Plain Dealer
COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A proposed constitutional amendment that would lift Ohio’s ban on same-sex marriage has picked up support from a prominent Republican.
Former Ohio Attorney General and State Auditor Jim Petro added his name on Monday to a petition that aims to place a "Freedom to Marry and Religious Freedom Amendment" on the 2014 ballot.
The career Republican declared his support of the amendment after announcing that his daughter and her same-sex partner are expecting a child.
“Last year, my daughter Corbin married Jessica Gelman in Massachusetts, where same-gender marriages are legal,” Petro said in a statement. “They are expecting a child soon, and deserve the same protections guaranteed to other families. Seeing their happiness, and realizing all the rights they would be denied here in Ohio has proven to me the importance of equal marriage in our state.”
Petro, who recently retired as Ohio’s higher education chancellor, opposed same-sex marriage during his 2006 primary run for governor. However, he supported civil unions and opposed the passage of the 2004 ballot issue that defined marriage in Ohio as being between a man and a woman, citing its "poorly written" language.
The “Freedom to Marry” amendment, crafted by the group FreedomOhio, would legalize same-sex marriage in the state while allowing religious groups to determine for themselves whether to perform the unions.
A conservative group that pushed for the 2004 amendment and intends to fight to preserve it predicted that Petro’s announcement would not make a difference.
Petro said the state’s ban on same-sex marriage “makes Ohio look intolerant and objecting to diversity. It’s not good for a state that wants to grow. I think we need to be a more diverse state and be accepting of diversity.”
FreedomOhio co-founder Ian James said Petro’s support of “Freedom to Marry” could start a chain reaction.
“With Jim being on board and being able to make a conservative case for marriage, it does help us as a campaign reach folks who weren’t as susceptible to that message,” James said.
The group needs to garner about 386,000 signatures by July 2014 to place its measure on the next gubernatorial ballot.
“We will have more than enough signatures for next year’s ballot,” James said, adding that about 4,000 volunteers are working statewide to bolster the petition.
Petro said his support of same-sex marriage upholds a GOP tenet.
“This amendment is rooted in a central conservative value, namely, freedom – the freedom to love, the freedom of religion, and the freedom from big government,” Petro said in a statement.
Petro also said he has reconciled his religion with his support of same-sex marriage.
“There are many people who are active Christians, and I’m a very active Christian, who support marriage equality,” Petro said. “Jesus never really said anything adverse about people who are gay.”
There could be more high-profile Republicans stepping up to support “Freedom to Marry,” James said, refusing to hint at who could follow in Petro’s footsteps.
Phil Burress, president of Citizens for Community Values, a Cincinnati-based group that championed Ohio’s same-sex marriage ban, said Petro’s stance is inconsequential.
“It’s not going to have much of an impact at all, what he thinks,” Burress said. “He’s taking a family matter and wants to force it on all Ohioans. I have compassion for his family situation, but he shouldn’t be forcing same-sex marriage on all Ohioans.”
Burress said CCV plans to make same-sex marriage the key issue during 2013 and 2014 elections. There’s no question “Freedom to Marry” will be defeated, he said.
“We’re going to be identifying every elected official and campaign that is wrong on this issue,” Burress said. “We’re going to start holding people accountable who support same-sex marriage.”
Petro joins U.S. Sen. Rob Portman on the list of high-profile Republicans who endorse same-sex marriage. Gov. John Kasich is not likely to join them, Petro said. Kasich recently reaffirmed his opposition to same-sex marriage and civil unions.
“We’ve had discussions about it broadly,” Petro said. “He has a different view. I have many friends who have a different view, and I respect that.”
© 2013 cleveland.com. All rights reserved.
isn't it funny, a man that was against same sex marriage is suddenly for it when his daughters preference comes into play.
I suppose it is our right to our minds 
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/...#incart_m-rpt-2
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Rob Portman also changed his position when his son (IIRC) came out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
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I've long believed that much of the lack of acceptance concerning LGBT folks was based on ignorance- not the "low I.Q." type of ignorance... but rather, a lack of contact with such people.
I discovered early on in my life's path, that outside of sexual orientation, most gays and lesbians were exactly like everyone else... with the same goals, likes, dislikes, hopes and aspirations as the rest of us. As I pursued my career, this discovery became further reinforced.
See- it's not that there are statistically more gays in The Arts, it's that the atmosphere in these communities was much less judgmental than in other segments of the community at large. This allowed people to be more open about who they were, with less fear of recrimination than in other areas of life. If you can play your ass off, you'll get calls for work. If you are a brilliant actor or sculptor or dancer, other pros didn't care who was waiting for you at home when the gig was over. You were judged by the work you could do.... not the 'person you do' in the privacy of your home.
As more folks reveal their orientation, more of their friends, relatives and co-workers will be forced to do one of two things:
1. reject the person who comes out
2. re-examine their attitudes in light of this new knowledge.
I believe the latter is the case, when seeing the turnarounds by folks like Rob Portman, John McCain, and many others.
Of course, there will be people who choose to exercise option #1, but they do so with the understanding that their choice will alienate a loved one- possibly for Life. Not as easy as it may sound. In other words: it's much easier to stand on a principle or P.O.V. until it's tested by events in Real Life. Things get a bit dicier and "grayer" when examined in the light of Reality.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
See- it's not that there are statistically more gays in The Arts, it's that the atmosphere in these communities was much less judgmental than in other segments of the community at large.
And you don't think that steers young gays looking for acceptance/niche into the Arts at a higher rate than into other fields?
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Legend
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Legend
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Hard to say.
As open as they've been for the past 3-4 decades, there seems to be no more of them per capita than the stat averages I've read over the years- at least in orchestras. Theater, visual arts- who knows?
Obviously, we can't account for the numbers who are still 'closeted,' so I guess we're left with suppositions only.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Dawg Talker
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As far as "closeted", who knows how many are in other fields due to historic rejection of their lifestyle.
Maybe we'll discover as time goes by that there have been an equal representation in other occupations.
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Since the majority (guessing?) in the arts just feel more comfortable with people in general and are therefore less discriminatory than most people, gay folks feel the same and are more open. Like you said, Clem, they don't care who you do. My guess is there are many, MANY, gay people still in hiding and we don't have a clue who they could be. We may work with them every day, they could be family, etc. Until that person feels safe, we may never know. I'm just questioning that there are MORE gays in the arts than anywhere else....there are just more people willing to be open.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
And you don't think that steers young gays looking for acceptance/niche into the Arts at a higher rate than into other fields?
I don't. You either have the calling, or not. Regardless of sex, religion, orientation, etc.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
Quote:
And you don't think that steers young gays looking for acceptance/niche into the Arts at a higher rate than into other fields?
I don't. You either have the calling, or not. Regardless of sex, religion, orientation, etc.
Do you ever wonder if non-gays avoid certain occupations?
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No....do you think they do?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Since the majority (guessing?) in the arts just feel more comfortable with people in general and are therefore less discriminatory than most people, gay folks feel the same and are more open. Like you said, Clem, they don't care who you do. My guess is there are many, MANY, gay people still in hiding and we don't have a clue who they could be. We may work with them every day, they could be family, etc. Until that person feels safe, we may never know. I'm just questioning that there are MORE gays in the arts than anywhere else....there are just more people willing to be open.
Exactly my point, Michelle. We see it the same way.
The first well-known name that pops into my head is that of Billy Strayhorn. Billy was the staff arranger for Duke Ellington's big band in the 40's and 50's. Now.... considering the times, the fact that Jazz was a male-dominated 'macho' world, and the fact that (...as our poster friend Jake puts it) African Americans were "historically opposed to the gay lifestyle," one might think his would have been a tough row to hoe. In many ways it was- but not from the musicians who knew him. If Billy ever had trouble, it always came from outside the musical world.
Everybody knew who Billy was- because he was fearlessly, openly "out" throughout his entire life. The cats just didn't care- they all loved him, because he was Family. He had a quiet, polite demeanor, was extremely strong and unwavering in his convictions, deeply intellectual, and was supremely gifted in his crafts (writing, arranging, Classically-trained virtuoso pianist) For those around him, what he was as a fellow musician and friend was all they ever cared about. As a result, The Band was very protective of him, and always had his back. Duke loved him like a 'little brother'- and said of him: "He was my right AND left hand... he wrote the charts; I played piano and took the bows."
I'm certain that the acceptance Billy felt among his 'family' allowed him to be totally himself... which is essential in a business that requires the person to put their entire selves into what they produce. (You don't hold back or "phone in" musical performances- in print, or on the bandstand. If you do, you won't be around for very long.)
As for other professions... and even my own.... who can tell how many folks are keeping their identities closed to the public? And how much should any of us be required to share with the world? All I really DO know is this, regarding politics and the civil rights of the LGBT Americans among us:
If Adam and Eve (of 1406 Dawtalk Place) can take for granted rights of citizenship that are denied Adam & Steve (of 1408 Dawgtalk Place) or Ada & Yvette (of 1410 Dawgtalk Place), something is still wrong with the basic way in which municipalities are interpreting The Nation's Constitution.
Either we're all free- or we all are still enslaved. (those of you who Know me, know exactly what I mean- in ALL its contexts-)
Just sayin'.
___________________
Since my bottom line (pretty much since the 'age of sexual awareness' ) has been: "Who cares what others do, when lights are low?"... this entire issue has always been a head-scratcher for me. I can almost get my head around a personal animus about the subject, but widespread CIVIC policy?
Please--
It always seemed to fly in the face of what "Everyone's America" was supposed to be about.
So long as ANY American is still fighting for social equality, America will always be 'a work in progress.'... which is as it should be. Change should always be slow, incremental... and inexorable. No matter what direction inertia asserts upon the population. If the movement is 'right,' it will be seen as such- in the fullness of Time; if not, it can be altered/"tweaked"/amended to suit the conditions of the day.
In other words: Our Constitution allows for civic flexibility. By its very nature and makeup..
___________
'Civil rights' will always be a sloppy public issue in this country, because it always straddles the realms of how we interpret the Law of The Land and how Human Beings naturally treat each other. It's messy business- because people are so complex. This is where The Blessing for some Americans becomes the The Curse for others. Those who wish to enforce Law in black & white terms are always frustrated, because Our Constitution (and by extension the Legal branch of government) has protocols in place to accommodate change in our collective Civic Imperative. It was the one most genius pillar of our Constitution's framework- the pillar that has allowed this nation to grow, change and re-make itself, as Our History continues to unfold. It was framed to accommodate 'shades of gray'... and (imho) it was framed as such, in tribute to (and left to the responsibility of) future generations... to make of this country what they will. It is within that 'gray area' the Our Constitution draws its most profound weaknesses- and its most profound strengths, depending upon outlook.
It was a huge leap of faith Our Founding Fathers took in their progeny... but it was the right choice, imho. Today's citizens have the same rights to effect the interpretation of the standing Constitution as its original framers. Take a minute to think about that, if you will. Such is the depth of their wisdom, foresight- and humility. They KNEW that they didn't have all the (eternally relevant) answers... and they left it up to each successive generation to find the (ever-evolving) answers for Their Own America. Huge, that was.
Pure.
Genius.
We might be 'getting it wrong' here in 2013... but I don't think so. Perhaps in 2033, 2063, an American populace will reverse the movements we're seeing today. I doubt it, but I'm also secure in trusting a framework that allows for us to continue this discussion of 2013 well into 2033, 2063- and well beyond, if it becomes necessary... and that's the beauty (and weight) of what we hold today- as "Custodians of the Constitution."
Adapt- and grow.... in fits and starts.
.02,
Clem.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Legend
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Legend
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Rob Portman also changed his position when his son (IIRC) came out.
Funny how that happens isn't it. as soon as the problem comes home, it's suddenly looked at differently. What's that tell you about how politicians think?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't have any evidence other than personal observation for the following hypothesis, but I do think there is a higher proportion of gay people in the arts, depending on how populations are being compared. For example, if we were to compare a sample population drawn from professions in the arts and humanities and compare it with a sample population drawn from professions in retail (common worker types, not mgmt. or administration), I think we would find that there are proportionally more gay people in the arts and humanities than in retail. Why? I propose two explanations. First, the general IQ measure for the arts and humanities population would undoubtedly be higher than the retail population, and I think there is a correlation between IQ and homosexuality. The second reason is linked to the first; the arts and humanities encourage free thought and inquiry whereas a job in retail working the cash register doesn't provide much in the way of intellectual stimulation. The combination of intelligence and free thought found in the arts and humanities, along with whatever biological predispositions that might already exist across all populations, leads to higher instances of homosexuality. In short, I submit that the biology of homosexuality is stable across all populations; therefore, it is intelligence, nurtured by one's environment, that makes the difference in proportions across populations. One corollary to this conclusion would be that gay people, in general, are more intelligent than straight people, if we are comparing entire populations.
Just a theory....
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No....do you think they do?
I don't know, but I would think if they were openly gay then they would seek whatever occupation they wanted, but if they were not openly gay I would assume, meaning of course that I'm probably horribly mistaken, they would stay away from certain occupations.
I don't even know for sure which occupations.
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Legend
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Just by my own casual observation I would agree that the percentage of homosexuals in the arts seems higher... It seems to be pretty high in the hospitality industry as well. I don't really know if it's true, and if it is I don't really know why, and to be honest, I don't really care. I believe that before long, science will prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that it's impossible for a waiter to actually get gayness on my food... so I'm comfortable with it.
yebat' Putin
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I'm probably horribly mistaken
Wouldn't be the first time!
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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Well Mr. Ted stinker...I'm still waiting for you to admit the zillions-quadrillion-billion times you've been soooo wrong!!!!! 
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