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Link What's Really 'Immoral' About Student LoansIt's not so much the interest rates charged. It is, rather, the principal of the thing.Unless Congress acts, interest rates for government subsidized student loans will double to 6.8% from 3.4% on July 1. In May, House Republicans passed a bill that would index rates on new loans to the rate on 10-year Treasurys (currently about 2.6%), plus 2.5 percentage points, with an 8.5% cap. But with little Democratic support in the Senate, that bill is dead in the water. Most Democrats want to lock the current 3.4% rate in place for two more years while Congress debates a "fairer" solution. Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren has even proposed letting students borrow directly from the government at the same ultra-low rate that banks currently get on short-term loans from the Federal Reserve—0.75%. She calls the Republican proposal "immoral." In the student-loan world, there's immorality to spare—not in the still historically low interest rates, but in the principal of the thing. Student debt, which recently surpassed the trillion-dollar level in the U.S., is now a major burden on graduates, a burden that is often not offset by increased earnings from a college degree in say, race and gender issues, rather than engineering. According to an extensive 2012 analysis by the Associated Press of college graduates 25 and younger, 50% are either unemployed or in jobs that don't require a college degree. Then there are the large numbers who don't graduate at all. According to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, more than 40% of full-time students at four-year institutions fail to graduate within six years. The National Center for Education Statistics reports that almost 75% of community-college students fail to graduate within three years. Those students don't have degrees, but they often still have debt. Why do students have so much debt? According to a recent study by Mark Perry, a professor of economics and finance at the University of Michigan at Flint, between 1978 and 2011 college tuition in the U.S. increased at an annual rate of 7.45%, vastly exceeding the rate of inflation and the almost-stagnant rate of growth in family incomes. The difference has been made up by more and more debt. With costs above $60,000 a year for many private schools, and out-of-state costs at many state schools exceeding $40,000, some young people are graduating with student loan debts of $100,000 or more, sometimes much more. A study released last month by Fidelity Investments found that 70% of the class of 2013 is graduating with college-related debt—averaging $35,200. According to a recent study by the New York Federal Reserve, "the share of twenty-five-year-olds with student debt has increased from just 25 percent in 2003 to 43 percent in 2012" and "student loan delinquencies have also been growing." Almost 12% of student loans are more than 90 days overdue. Student-loan debt, the New York Fed study found, also delays marriage, home purchases and other "adult" decisions that once followed graduation from college. Now here's where the real immorality kicks in. The skyrocketing cost of a college education is a classic unintended consequence of government intervention. Colleges have responded to the availability of easy federal money by doing what subsidized industries generally do: Raising prices to capture the subsidy. Sold as a tool to help students cope with rising college costs, student loans have instead been a major contributor to the problem. In truth, America's student loan problem won't be solved by low interest rates—for many students, the debt would be crippling even if the interest rate were zero. If we want to solve the very real problem of excessive student-loan debt, college costs need to be brought under control. A 2010 study by the Goldwater Institute identified "administrative bloat" as a leading reason for higher costs. The study found that many American universities now have more salaried administrators than teaching faculty. Another way to approach costs is to remove the incentives for universities to accept government-subsidized student-loan money regardless of a student's prospects of graduation or gainful employment. Under the current setup, incentives run the other way: Schools get their money up front via student loans; if students are unable to pay the loans back, the burden falls on taxpayers (if the loan was "guaranteed" by the federal government), and the students themselves, while the schools get off scot-free. A serious student-loan fix would change this incentive. First, federal aid could be capped, perhaps at a national average, or simply indexed to the consumer-price index, making it harder for schools to raise tuition willy-nilly. Second, schools that receive subsidized loan money could be left on the hook for a percentage of the loan balance if students default. I would favor allowing students who can't pay to discharge their loan balances in bankruptcy after a reasonable time—say, five to seven years, maybe even 10—with the institutions that got the money being liable to the guarantors (i.e., the taxpayers) for, say, 10% or 20% of the balance. You can bet that under this kind of a rule, universities would be much more careful about encouraging students to take on significant debt unless they are fully committed first to graduating, and second to a realistic career path that would enable them to service that debt over time. At the very least, schools would be more likely to warn students of the risks. Even thinking about the impact of such a "skin in the game" rule for colleges helps to illustrate the irresponsible—even, in Elizabeth Warren's words, "immoral"—way that colleges up to now have dealt with costs and with debt. If lawmakers were serious about helping students pay for college, Congress would be considering more than simply continuing low interest rates on ever-higher student-loan balances. Mr. Reynolds, a law professor at the University of Tennessee, is the author of "The Higher Education Bubble" (Encounter Books, 2012).
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This crap is back in the news?
Easy solution -- unless you are dead set on a particular profession that requires a degree, don't waste your time with college.
If you don't yet know what you want to do... get a job, and don't waste your time with college. When you figure it out, then go.
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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's back in the news because of the scheduled rate hike.
And I agree with you.
I have 16 years or so before I have to deal with this with my child and I'm thinking about it already.
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It's truly amazing. I can't imagine starting out with the kind of debt people strap themselves with, it's crazy.
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Especially when there are community colleges and stuff to get started at. You can also join the military and then get the GI Bill.
LOTS of ways to do it way smarter than most do it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And it drives me nuts to see them interview all of these "woe is me" young adults who can't figure out why they are having a hard time finding a job with their poetry degree that they spent 100k on.
If my son wants a degree like that he's paying for it himself. If you aren't going to school to get a degree in something useful then don't freaking go. Heck, most of the best IT folks that I work with do not have a degree. I have one, and it has helped me land some jobs, but it certainly isn't needed if you've got the motivation to teach yourself.
#gmstrong
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Heck, most of the best IT folks that I work with do not have a degree. I have one, and it has helped me land some jobs, but it certainly isn't needed if you've got the motivation to teach yourself.
Amen. High school drop-out with just a G.E.D. here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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 I'm one without a degree. I think many times about taking some courses as things are getting more complicated and technical, but the internet is such a useful tool. if you can read, and research, and have the time to do so, you can teach yourself almost anything. I've had an IBM tech, with a degree, in here to do a warranty repair on a server. After 30 minutes I looked in on him and he had a befuddled look on his face. He didn't even know how to disassemble the machine to get to the CPU.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I had 2 years of college that really did nothing for me. (except pile up some debt, though fortunately, not as much as some people did)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well, unless you have enough experience to counteract a degree then I'd say you need one. If your resume indicates you don't have a bachelor's degree and a lot of other candidates for that job do, they would probably toss yours aside. I'm about to get my degree in computer science and I couldn't imagine going out into the workforce and trying to competing against others without a bachelor's.
Of course if someone has 20 years of experience at something then that is another story.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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Quote:
Well, unless you have enough experience to counteract a degree then I'd say you need one. If your resume indicates you don't have a bachelor's degree and a lot of other candidates for that job do, they would probably toss yours aside. I'm about to get my degree in computer science and I couldn't imagine going out into the workforce and trying to competing against others without a bachelor's.
Of course if someone has 20 years of experience at something then that is another story.
While I agree if there are two candidates that it is a tossup between, the one with the degree wins every time. No experience at all and a degree vs no experience and no degree, degree wins every time. Someone who has had an interest in programming, system engineering, etc, since jr high and 1-2 years real world application development/administation vs someone with a 4year degree and no experience I'd take the former based on the interviews I've done.
Programming is 20% technology and 80% art. Some people have it and some don't and they certainly cannot teach the art part in college.
I'm not trying to say college isn't worth it. Like I said, I've got a degree (management information systems) but I cannot say that I used a whole lot from it other than some basic programming skills and database normalization, of which I most certainly could have taught myself.
#gmstrong
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Especially when there are community colleges and stuff to get started at. You can also join the military and then get the GI Bill.
LOTS of ways to do it way smarter than most do it.
Honestly the community college path is brilliant. Sure, you're sacrificing the "college experience" but having thousands of dollars in debt sucks.
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Agreed. The 2+2 with a community college is a great way to save a lot of money.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I did 1 +3.
I got into some good schools, but I had to pay for everything myself and didn't feel comfortable with the loans I was being offered.
The plan was to do 2 + 2, but after one I wanted to go where the grass was green and the girls were pretty, so I took on a bit of debt.
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I managed a network and a website, and that was before I went to college.  I did spend about an hour a day online looking for the latest problems and solutions. That was the extent of my training though. I fixed problems created by the guy the big boss (the father) hired. He was a college grad, and MS certified. He had no common sense, and had no clue how to fix simple problems. My boss (his son) threw that guy out of our dealership and said that I was to handle the network, not him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Co. I work for is going bassakwerds. The have been forcing out those with experience or into early retirement, and really won't look into replacing anybody unless they have a degree. I have seen good people go and replaced with book smart people only to be replaced within a year by somebody that knows how to do the job. You guessed it, somebody with experience. I don't know why they keep looking for the degrees vs. the experience. I wonder why the Gov. is the only one who can offer low interest loans. It seems to me that the colleges would make a little money on the side by offering loans to the people they want to go there. They really push the Gov. loans and we've been fortunate to stay away. There are so many strings attached that you might end up paying back double what you borrowed if you don't jump through all their hoops. It's a scam run by the Gov. just to make money.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
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Quote:
The Co. I work for is going bassakwerds. The have been forcing out those with experience or into early retirement, and really won't look into replacing anybody unless they have a degree. I have seen good people go and replaced with book smart people only to be replaced within a year by somebody that knows how to do the job. You guessed it, somebody with experience. I don't know why they keep looking for the degrees vs. the experience. I wonder why the Gov. is the only one who can offer low interest loans. It seems to me that the colleges would make a little money on the side by offering loans to the people they want to go there. They really push the Gov. loans and we've been fortunate to stay away. There are so many strings attached that you might end up paying back double what you borrowed if you don't jump through all their hoops. It's a scam run by the Gov. just to make money.
I don't remember the exact default rate but students loans are defaulted on at an alarming rate. Why would a college take that risk?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I don't remember the exact default rate but students loans are defaulted on at an alarming rate. Why would a college take that risk?
Exactly. No way is it worth the risk and headache. They get their money and ont have to worry about repayment. The colleges ar in a perfect situation.
#gmstrong
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Heck, most of the best IT folks that I work with do not have a degree. I have one, and it has helped me land some jobs, but it certainly isn't needed if you've got the motivation to teach yourself.
Amen. High school drop-out with just a G.E.D. here.
I'm a 6 figure high school moron without ever stepping foot in a college.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
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Heck, most of the best IT folks that I work with do not have a degree. I have one, and it has helped me land some jobs, but it certainly isn't needed if you've got the motivation to teach yourself.
Amen. High school drop-out with just a G.E.D. here.
I'm a 6 figure high school moron without ever stepping foot in a college.
Having years of experience kind of looks nice on a resume 
14 years of sales experience.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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If a man can sell, he'll never go hungry."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I suppose bringing up subjects like "institutional racism" and "white privilege" probably wouldn't go over too well, would it? 
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If we were discussing boogeyman phrases from many years ago, perhaps.
In terms of discussing people who take out loans and don't pay them back, not so much.
Unless you are arguing that this should be a "black privilege"?
Or where you just babbling incoherently, again?
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This thread took a weird turn...
I went to college straight from high school. I got my engineering degree, and I wouldn't have been able to land any of my jobs without it.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but it depends on the job you want to get. Nowadays, I'd guess it's damn near impossible to get any type of engineering position without a degree (or at least enrolled and working towards a degree). I say that having met 2 people that I've worked with and have been in the field forever and don't have one. They were able to do it, but I think those days are over.
It also has to do with employers. I've never looked at a job posting that didn't have a bachelor's degree as a minimum requirement (again, I'm an engineer). I'm starting to run into postings where a master's is the minimum. I think that HR departments are seeing this as an easy way to cut down on the number of resumes they have to read. If the computer automatically screens out a resume that doesn't have a degree, that makes their job easier (not saying this is right, just saying).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Quote:
This thread took a weird turn...
I went to college straight from high school. I got my engineering degree, and I wouldn't have been able to land any of my jobs without it.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but it depends on the job you want to get. Nowadays, I'd guess it's damn near impossible to get any type of engineering position without a degree (or at least enrolled and working towards a degree). I say that having met 2 people that I've worked with and have been in the field forever and don't have one. They were able to do it, but I think those days are over.
It also has to do with employers. I've never looked at a job posting that didn't have a bachelor's degree as a minimum requirement (again, I'm an engineer). I'm starting to run into postings where a master's is the minimum. I think that HR departments are seeing this as an easy way to cut down on the number of resumes they have to read. If the computer automatically screens out a resume that doesn't have a degree, that makes their job easier (not saying this is right, just saying).
It hadn't been mentioned outright in those words, but more insinuated several time. There are jobs that NEED a degree to get into the field, engineering, architecture, doctor, nursing, teaching. The primary one there where the pay will probably never equal the debt acquired is teaching. The others could reach a level of income to live comfortably and pay their loans.
And has been stated the college choice also affects the debt level. You don't go to Yale or Harvard to be a gym teacher, it's just stupid.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Well Nelly it ain't nice to call something babble when you just have no idea what it means. The very same banks that gave out these loans got their debt paid for by us. Now they're charging our kids more than what we charged them when they said,"Hey we banks need help here!!!". As far as black privilege; that makes no sense. If you want to get an idea about white privilege check out what the FHA warned about letting blacks use the GI bill to buy houses in certain neighborhoods because it would drive down the value of the neighborhoods. If you figure that out, try to realize how wealth creates wealth without any effort and most middle class wealth lies in their homes. Now the same people who control money want to add to profits by charging students ever increasing rates of tuition and interest rates. Meanwhile we can all say, "I don't get it. I had no problem getting mine."  If the world were as simple as some people preach it to be then you might just be a genius, but as it is....well....  Yea, the thread took a weird turn, but it was just kind of riding along on a lot of self-congratulations without much questioning. We're not getting screwed by kids or the lower class. There's been increasing wealth in only one class and they want tax cuts, bail-outs, and the ability to screw over our kids to boot. Excuse the loans. How's it going to hurt us? Isn't it the same type of investing in job creators as tax-cuts are??
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Excuse the loans. How's it going to hurt us? Isn't it the same type of investing in job creators as tax-cuts are??
Why excuse them?
And they won't simply be excused... they have to be paid. Guess who will end up paying them? Everybody. More spending that we cannot afford.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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While we are in the excusing debts kind of mood I got this pesky little mortgage thing I'd like to talk about.
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Oh, heck yeah.... let's get real here. Pay that off, and my Firestone card, and my Visa, and my HHGregg card! 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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While we are in the excusing debts kind of mood I got this pesky little mortgage thing I'd like to talk about.
Exactly. If we are going to start excusing loans, I got some things I want to buy, especially if I don't have to pay for them down the road. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Oh, I know Exactly what it means. It means you're a far-left loon that babbles incoherently.
Quoting the FHA from how many decades ago? A few banks were bailed out, many make college loans. Interest rates and tuition are controlled by two completely different entities. Kids who get degrees in "gender studies" aren't going to FIND a job, much less create any. "just might be"? I am.
Creating wealth is open to anyone. My great-grandfather was a broken-down drunk with nothing, his son became a millionaire. His son did, too. The secret is to work really, really hard.
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Excuse the loans. How's it going to hurt us? Isn't it the same type of investing in job creators as tax-cuts are??
Why excuse them?
And they won't simply be excused... they have to be paid. Guess who will end up paying them? Everybody. More spending that we cannot afford.
Yep.
IIRC, there is $1 trillion in outstanding student loan debt in this country. If we "just excuse" it, then we add $1 trillion to the national debt. We're currently at $16.7 trillion as it is. That equates to roughly $53,000 for each man, woman, and child, whether they are working, or not. Let's just keep piling it on. Someone will pay it off ...... some day .........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Grandfather a millionaire, father a millionaire , .. hmmm... I thought from your posts that you sounded like a trust fund baby . Why are you slumin with us blue collar folk ?
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I chose a different path.
There is not and never has been any "trust fund". Like my father and grandfather, what I have, I earned.
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The article is a bit flawed on a couple of levels.
First. The reduction is budgets of state supported schools was not mentioned in the article. It is pretty well known that colleges are not supported to the same extent as they were 20-30 years ago. A critical analysis would probably show the gap between the cost of public and private education shrinking.
Second. There is the sticker price of what a college would like you to pay and the real price... This is just insane, but some schools show a higher tuition and then offer discounts in many forms to reduce the cost.
Third, The great unspoken world out in the market is the "quazi" or non-accredited colleges and the private (for big profit) non transferable credit schools that work the system hard. Real hard. That is immoral. We all know them, and frankly what they provide is generally substandard.
I agree with the point about the availability of money making it easier to go further in debt.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Oh, I agree with ya, but I was just concerned about the ability of some to so easily dismiss the idea without some kind of real discussion.
I know who will pay for it. The same people who are paying for everything. The ever dwindling middle class.
I was just wondering why we're not so all fired up to stop paying the "hard earned" for profit making entities, yet we easily gripe about kids trying to do the right thing and getting screwed over?
These kids are not in the same situation we were. Sure we had to pay, but tuition these days is ridiculous and unlike when we were young and thought a high school diploma meant "employable" these days it's college or minimum wage and no profession.
And minimum wage these days is way more minimum than in our day.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 |
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Oh, I know Exactly what it means. It means you're a far-left loon that babbles incoherently.
Your misunderstanding doesn't equate to others' babbling. It only means you struggle to understand things.
Quoting the FHA from how many decades ago?
I believe it was the decade that marked the beginning of suburbs and "white flight". Home ownership is the mark of creating middle class wealth. When a whole class is denied that privilege then that whole class is subjugated to urban areas where property values (wealth) have declined. Meaning they have no home value to invest in a better home in a better area. It's really not that complicated. Have your kid read it for you.
A few banks were bailed out, many make college loans.
Many have started inflating that property value balloon again also. I'm wondering if they have paid the same interest rates some of them are charging these kids.
Interest rates and tuition are controlled by two completely different entities.
Yea, you're probably right. There's absolutely NO connection between the banks and the universities.
Kids who get degrees in "gender studies" aren't going to FIND a job, much less create any. "just might be"? I am.
You am what?
Creating jobs in "gender studies"?
Well I think that's great and I have no criticism for your choice of interests.
Creating wealth is open to anyone. My great-grandfather was a broken-down drunk with nothing, his son became a millionaire. His son did, too. The secret is to work really, really hard.
If only this were true. However, it's still true that if the world were as simple as many people want us to believe then you'd be a genius.
If all it took was hard work then just about everyone on this board would be a millionaire. Right?
Or are you trying to make everyone believe you and yours have worked harder or smarter than those who aren't millionaires like you.
Whereas I believe hard work, diligence, a sense of entrepreneurship and other characteristics can lead to wealth, you'd have to admit there are far more failures than successes, and I don't care how much of your money you want to give to make me believe the Walton have worked hard I just can't believe it.
They and theirs have benefitted from the capitalistic (a good thing) benefit of wealth creating wealth. There are some wealthy people who can't spend money fast enough to keep up with what their money earns, so they create charities and trusts and stuff, or like Henry Ford, take care of their employees.
I apologize if you find all of this incomprehensible or somehow insulting your sense of worth, but it is what it is.
No shame in it, but you gotta at least have an idea of how the world of finance sorta works. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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Home ownership is the mark of creating middle class wealth. When a whole class is denied that privilege then that whole class is subjugated to urban areas where property values (wealth) have declined. Meaning they have no home value to invest in a better home in a better area.
Having lived in the DC area for a long time, I can assure you that urban property values did not decline (Until such time as ALL property values started to decline). The areas where they did decline, was due to neglect, poor upkeep, and crime. Is that the fault of the people that left or the people that stayed?
Now when you speak of an urban renewal or an investment in bringing decent quality of life back to inner city living for middle and upper middle class people, you are accused of wanting to kick out the poor. Nobody, black/white/other wants to invest in a home and move their family in when it's surrounded by low income housing, poverty, homelessness, crime, etc...
So how do you fix it? Well, one idea would be to encourage (almost force) banks to give low interest loans without income verification to people or to make ARM loans that start with this very attractive payment because that balloon payment that's going to happen in 7 years, well you have sold the house by then anyway.... so that lower income and more minority people could buy homes, then the banks could flip these loans to Fanny Mae so that they are government insured and then the bank could use that money to go back and give more loans to people who may or may not qualify for the amount of money that are asking for..... I don't see anything that could go wrong with that plan.
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Yea, you're probably right. There's absolutely NO connection between the banks and the universities.
There is a connection, banks lend money, universities need money to educate kids... federal and state governments regulate, insure, and control all of it, so there is your connection.
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If only this were true. However, it's still true that if the world were as simple as many people want us to believe then you'd be a genius.
If all it took was hard work then just about everyone on this board would be a millionaire. Right?
No, it's not all that simple.. it's not all that complex either.
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Whereas I believe hard work, diligence, a sense of entrepreneurship and other characteristics can lead to wealth, you'd have to admit there are far more failures than successes,
I would disagree totally.. unless you define success as being independently wealthy. If you develop a marketable skill set, get a decent education, keep your nose clean and work hard the chances of you failing are slim. You will have ups and downs with the economy but the odds that you won't be able to support yourself and family are slim. I'm tired of the conversation about "the American dream" being turned into what it takes to become a rags to riches millionaire because, while possible, it is unrealistic for most people. My own story is far more realistic, great grandfather was an Irish immigrant who did ok, grandfather got a good factory working job in textiles and moved into management, father was the first one to go to college, paid for it himself, I was 6 and went to his graduation, my brother sister and I all went straight to college, now our kids have just a little more than we had... achieving the full scope of the American dream of rags to riches in one generation is highly unlikely.... but if you set out to make things better for your kids than you had it and instill in them the values of education and hard work to make things better for THEIR kids, then by your grandkids or great grandkids, they should be doing pretty darn well.
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and I don't care how much of your money you want to give to make me believe the Walton have worked hard I just can't believe it.
Are you referring to the Wal-mart Walton's? If so, then I would disagree. They worked very hard and they put together the 3 ingredients it takes to be very successful, innovation, opportunity, and hard work. Most of the people who achieved wealth (outside of the entertainment field) did so because they had an innovative idea and they capitalized on it... usually at tremendous personal risk. Why aren't more people wealthy? Because they aren't willing to take the risk of mortgaging everything they have on an unproven idea.... they are more comfortable working for a salary or maybe running a business that is similar to a lot of other businesses and following the same business model.
I've shared this on here before... a few years ago I went to the national minority contractors association conference in Charlotte.. it was eye opening. I was one of 3 white people in attendance, most of them were black with a smattering of some women owned business and a few latinos.. but mostly black. The whole three day conference was a bunch of subcontractor types who owned cleaning companies and roadway line painting companies and painting companies and all they wanted to know was, how can I get a little piece of the pie. How can I get the Skanskas and the Balfour Beatty's and the Clark Constructions (all giant national and international general contractors) to give us just a little more work... how can we lobby the government to make sure there are more set-asides to ensure that our businesses can get just a little more work.. not a single person there, not one, ever challenged the notion that THEY wanted to be the next Balfour Beatty... they didn't even entertain the idea that THEY could be the big dog, they just wanted a few more scraps... it was fairly disheartening and I shared that with the guy that invited me.... the guy who was in charge of the diversity program at Wake Forest University at the time.. He said that in his 10 years of doing those functions, he had never looked at it that way..... If you want to be big, then you have to think and dream big... and the bigger you want to be, the greater the chance you will fail.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 |
Quote:
Having lived in the DC area for a long time, I can assure you that urban property values did not decline (Until such time as ALL property values started to decline). The areas where they did decline, was due to neglect, poor upkeep, and crime. Is that the fault of the people that left or the people that stayed?
If you don't already accept that it was due to people moving to the suburbs where property values increased while the urban property values decreased then you won't accept my statement and that's OK.
Maybe you think I'm blaming white people for moving, but there were all races who wanted out to the suburbs. It was the banks and realtors who did the block-busting and steering, over-valuing, under-valuing which caused the situation of urban families losing value in their homes, quickly.
The reason it's called "white flight" is because it was predominantly white people given the opportunity to move out.There is plenty of evidence that shows how trouble started when a black family wanted to move to a nicer neighborhood. I suppose we could deny that, in the same Amadinajacket denies the Holocaust, but it is a fact that black families were not given the same opportunities.
The reason why it's called institutional and there are terms like "white privilege" is because most white people have never needed to put a thought into what was occurring. The FHA, banks and realtors made the decision back then which have pretty much set the course for where we are now.
I doubt it would be fair to compare Cleveland, which has been on the top part of list of most segregated cities, to other cities, likewise I've heard you can't rent a shoe box for less than an arm or leg in DC, so how fair is that? Detroit has begun demolishing large portions of their urban areas.
Cities like Cleveland and Detroit have a near zero tax base within city limits. I know it would be simple to say it's all their fault for being born there, but it's really not that simple. Which is the point I was originally trying to make after reading all of the self-congratulatory comments about how we shouldn't help these kids, because nobody helped me and I'm fine.
And again, I'm not blaming white people, which of course I am a member of that race, I'm saying look a little deeper into what's been happening with the "regulations" on banks and Wall Street and check out how they're already starting the property value cycle to rise again.
Now when you speak of an urban renewal or an investment in bringing decent quality of life back to inner city living for middle and upper middle class people, you are accused of wanting to kick out the poor. Nobody, black/white/other wants to invest in a home and move their family in when it's surrounded by low income housing, poverty, homelessness, crime, etc...
I have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. there have been neighborhoods in the Cleveland area that were recently built to encourage middle class families to move into. I don't recall anybody blaming anybody for kicking out poor people.
It probably did happen, but I wonder if the poor people won-out in the end.
So how do you fix it? Well, one idea would be to encourage (almost force) banks to give low interest loans without income verification to people or to make ARM loans that start with this very attractive payment because that balloon payment that's going to happen in 7 years, well you have sold the house by then anyway.... so that lower income and more minority people could buy homes, then the banks could flip these loans to Fanny Mae so that they are government insured and then the bank could use that money to go back and give more loans to people who may or may not qualify for the amount of money that are asking for..... I don't see anything that could go wrong with that plan.
That's a wonderful couple of sentences there. The longer one does seem to contain some politically biased and sarcastic assumptions, but suppose you are already aware of that.
There is a connection, banks lend money, for a profit universities need money to educate kids.. so they annually raise tuition...BTW do you realize that in some states the highest paid individuals are college coaches? . federal and state governments regulate, actually they write legislation and consistently refuse to fund it insure, With one of those "Too Big to Fail!" policies. and control all of it, so there is your connection. That last part is where you're closest. Most laws governing these institutions have actually, literally been written by the institutions themselves.
No, it's not all that simple.. it's not all that complex either.
Neither is magic. It all works through deception.
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Whereas I believe hard work, diligence, a sense of entrepreneurship and other characteristics can lead to wealth, you'd have to admit there are far more failures than successes,
I would disagree totally.. seriously???? unless you define success as being independently wealthy. Well the person I was conversing with was pretty much implying that. If you develop a marketable skill set, get a decent education, keep your nose clean and work hard the chances of you failing are slim. Unless of course you are a recent grad saddled with huge loans. And - believe it or not, in spite of the constant characterizations, they are not all water-color and nose-picking doctorates either. You will have ups and downs with the economy but the odds that you won't be able to support yourself and family are slim. To be honest, if you consider that these days you pretty much have to have a degree or know someone who will hire you in a trade or already have the skills to start your own trade service, then it is more difficult for these kids than it was for our(?)/my generation. I'm tired of the conversation about "the American dream" being turned into what it takes to become a rags to riches millionaire because, while possible, it is unrealistic for most people. Although it's always a bit humorous to hear that some of these kids think they'll start at a $40,000 salary, that's hardly "rags-to-riches. Most of the relevant conversation, especially when it comes to the biggest bo stores and other corporations is the willingness for them to supply their employees with a "working wage" that allows them to do more than barely meet a "hand to mouth" existence, even with two wage earners. My own story is far more realistic, great grandfather was an Irish immigrant who did ok, grandfather got a good factory working job in textiles and moved into management, father was the first one to go to college, paid for it himself, I was 6 and went to his graduation, my brother sister and I all went straight to college, now our kids have just a little more than we had... achieving the full scope of the American dream of rags to riches in one generation is highly unlikely.... but if you set out to make things better for your kids than you had it and instill in them the values of education and hard work to make things better for THEIR kids, then by your grandkids or great grandkids, they should be doing pretty darn well.
Yea, great story, we've all got one, but it doesn't explain away the fact that there has been an unequal economy for decades and now the balance is exponentially moving upwards.
Maybe I should be saying, instead of paying off these loans why aren't we asking why can't they pay the loans or why are the loans so damn expensive, because I bet your dad didn't have the same situation when he went to college and please don't take that as a slam on your father. My point is, there's a reason WHY these kids are in this situation. They are no better or worse than previous generations, yet now they are paying off huge loans we never had to.
WHY?
Are you referring to the Wal-mart Walton's? If so, then I would disagree. They worked very hard and they put together the 3 ingredients it takes to be very successful, innovation, opportunity, and hard work. Most of the people who achieved wealth (outside of the entertainment field) did so because they had an innovative idea and they capitalized on it... usually at tremendous personal risk. Why aren't more people wealthy? Because they aren't willing to take the risk of mortgaging everything they have on an unproven idea.... they are more comfortable working for a salary or maybe running a business that is similar to a lot of other businesses and following the same business model.
I've shared this on here before... a few years ago I went to the national minority contractors association conference in Charlotte.. it was eye opening. I was one of 3 white people in attendance, most of them were black with a smattering of some women owned business and a few latinos.. but mostly black. The whole three day conference was a bunch of subcontractor types who owned cleaning companies and roadway line painting companies and painting companies and all they wanted to know was, how can I get a little piece of the pie. How can I get the Skanskas and the Balfour Beatty's and the Clark Constructions (all giant national and international general contractors) to give us just a little more work... how can we lobby the government to make sure there are more set-asides to ensure that our businesses can get just a little more work.. not a single person there, not one, ever challenged the notion that THEY wanted to be the next Balfour Beatty... they didn't even entertain the idea that THEY could be the big dog, they just wanted a few more scraps... it was fairly disheartening and I shared that with the guy that invited me.... the guy who was in charge of the diversity program at Wake Forest University at the time.. He said that in his 10 years of doing those functions, he had never looked at it that way..... If you want to be big, then you have to think and dream big... and the bigger you want to be, the greater the chance you will fail.
You couldn't have explained it better than I could. This is what's been going on. These people probably had fathers, uncles, aunts, mothers who were working just as hard, but what they lacked was investment power. The power that a lot of middle class families had. "I put my HOUSE up for collateral to get this business started"
As far as the Waltons..?.. give me a break.
To Match Walton Heirs' Fortune, You'd Need to Work at Walmart for 7 Million Years
Just how rich are the Waltons? According to the latest edition of the Forbes 400, released yesterday, the six wealthiest heirs to the Walmart empire are together worth a staggering $115 billion. This marks the first time in American history that one family has controlled a 12-figure fortune. While the nation's richest person is still Bill Gates, the sixth-, seventh-, eighth-, and ninth-richest Americans are all Waltons.
To put that in perspective, here's a chart of things the Waltons could afford to pay for: CHECK OUT THE CHART
Sources: Center on Budget Policy Priorities, CNN, Los Angeles Times, Congressional Budget Office
The Waltons' fortune might be something to celebrate if not for the fact that they've raked it in at our expense. Sasha Abramsky writes:
In 2004, a year in which Wal-Mart reported $9.1 billion in profits, the retailer's California employees collected $86 million in public assistance, according to researchers at the University of California-Berkeley. Other studies have revealed widespread use of publicly funded health care by Wal-Mart employees in numerous states. In 2004, Democratic staffers of the House education and workforce committee calculated that each 200-employee Wal-Mart store costs taxpayers an average of more than $400,000 a year, based on entitlements ranging from energy-assistance grants to Medicaid to food stamps to WIC—the federal program that provides food to low-income women with children.
The average Walmart worker earns just $8.81 an hour. At that wage, the union-backed Making Change at Walmart campaign calculates that a Walmart worker would need:
◾7 million years to earn as much wealth as the Walton family has (presuming the worker doesn't spend anything)
◾170,000 years to earn as much money as the Walton family receives annually in Walmart dividends
◾1 year to earn as much money as the Walton family earns in Walmart dividends every three minutes
For more on the Walton fortune, see my 2011 chart: "6 Walmart Heirs Hold More Wealth Than 42% of Americans Combined"
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