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The trial is a joke, he is TOTALLY innocent and had every right to use deadly force, but I guess it's free TV's when the riot starts.
Where do people who are convinced that there will be riots think they are going to happen, exactly?
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I don't agree that TM instigated it. Z was stalking him, he provoked TM into doing something about it.
Again, following someone doesn't give you the right to beat someone up. Trayvon ran, Zimmerman claims he was just trying to see which way he was going and thought he was trying to get out the back gate. What he did was not smart but not illegal and didn't give Trayvon the right to assault him if that is what happened
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If Z was minding his own business, none of this would have happened.
Well if he is the neighborhood watch then minding his own business is counter productive. What he should have done is stayed in his car and waited for the police and let them try to track down Trayvon to see who he was and what he was up to.
Trayvon should of ran home or called 911 on his cell phone. With Zimmerman on 911 and if Trayvon called in saying someone in the same area is following him the dispatcher may have put 2 and 2 together and defused the situation.
Like I said in my previous post, both sides didn't do the correct thing but I don't believe Zimmerman deserves a 2nd degree murder charge. I can see involuntary manslaughter since his actions (unintentionally) lead to someones death but I don't believe he set out to murder Trayvon.
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Like I said in my previous post, both sides didn't do the correct thing but I don't believe Zimmerman deserves a 2nd degree murder charge. I can see involuntary manslaughter since his actions (unintentionally) lead to someones death but I don't believe he set out to murder Trayvon.
I agree with everything you've said here, but the (hypothetical) tail end there is more descriptive of first-degree murder than second.
I really have no idea what that DA was thinking charging second degree. Their only realistic shot at a conviction of any kid was involuntary manslaughter, and even then, they'd have their work cut out for them.
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Again, following someone doesn't give you the right to beat someone up. Trayvon ran, Zimmerman claims he was just trying to see which way he was going and thought he was trying to get out the back gate. What he did was not smart but not illegal and didn't give Trayvon the right to assault him if that is what happened
I think what it boils down to is mainly 2 things.
1. Zimmerman was told he didn't need to keep following TM. On his own he took a different course of action.
2. At what point do you stop following someone and start stalking them? At what point does someone feel stalked and in need of defending themselves against a stalker>
I don't have the answer to those questions but it would appear that Z made it very apparent that he was watching and following TM.
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Had he just beaten the crap out of Z would he have been charged with a crime? I bet he would have. They would have said if someone is following you, you call the cops. You dont double back on them and attack them.
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I don't have the answer to those questions but it would appear that Z made it very apparent that he was watching and following TM.
I think that's what Block Watch people do... identify suspicious activity, follow and inform the police.
I have difficulty believing Z ran up to TM and attacked him.
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1. Zimmerman was told he didn't need to keep following TM. On his own he took a different course of action.
That may be what happened but you need to prove that. Zimmerman was already following Martin before the dispatcher advised him that he didn't need to do that. He replied OK. He had already went through the sidewalk cut through (according to him). After that he hung up with the cops and claims he was walking back to his car and Trayvon came out of the bottom of the T and confronted him and assaulted him (again according to Zimmerman). In this case the burden of proof falls on the State to prove Zimmerman's story is false. I don't think the evidence available to them can prove with out a shadow of a doubt that Zimmerman is lying about the sequence of events that night.
If Zimmermans story is true then he had already broken off pursuit and was heading back to his car and broke off pursuit. No one will ever know the truth except Zimmerman.
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Like I said in my previous post, both sides didn't do the correct thing but I don't believe Zimmerman deserves a 2nd degree murder charge. I can see involuntary manslaughter since his actions (unintentionally) lead to someones death but I don't believe he set out to murder Trayvon.
I agree with everything you've said here, but the (hypothetical) tail end there is more descriptive of first-degree murder than second.
I really have no idea what that DA was thinking charging second degree. Their only realistic shot at a conviction of any kid was involuntary manslaughter, and even then, they'd have their work cut out for them.
Florida law requires the jury to decide and consider the lesser charge of manslaughter regardless of what the DA charged Z with. That's why.
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Like I said in my previous post, both sides didn't do the correct thing but I don't believe Zimmerman deserves a 2nd degree murder charge. I can see involuntary manslaughter since his actions (unintentionally) lead to someones death but I don't believe he set out to murder Trayvon.
I agree with everything you've said here, but the (hypothetical) tail end there is more descriptive of first-degree murder than second.
I really have no idea what that DA was thinking charging second degree. Their only realistic shot at a conviction of any kid was involuntary manslaughter, and even then, they'd have their work cut out for them.
Florida law requires the jury to decide and consider the lesser charge of manslaughter regardless of what the DA charged Z with. That's why.
Really? I read an article that said the DA would have to push for that but that would mean they would have to admit they didn't have a strong case. (That's what the article said IIRC it was either the Miami Herald or Orlando Sentinel).
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Couldn't find the article but here is from the Wall Street Journal Quote:
But some states, including Florida, have not adopted this sliding-scale approach of the Model Code but instead use an all-or-nothing formulation. Either the defendant's mistake was reasonable, in which case he is innocent of murder, or it was not, in which case he is liable for murder.
This formulation was meant to be tougher on people who kill in self-defense, holding them to a high standard if they use deadly force. But in practice the rule commonly has the opposite effect. Juries are loath to treat as a murderer a person who made mistakes, even culpable mistakes, during the chaos of self-defense. So presented with an all-or-nothing choice, juries can end up giving defendants a free pass when they actually deserve some (perhaps mitigated) punishment.
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Like I said in my previous post, both sides didn't do the correct thing but I don't believe Zimmerman deserves a 2nd degree murder charge. I can see involuntary manslaughter since his actions (unintentionally) lead to someones death but I don't believe he set out to murder Trayvon.
I agree with everything you've said here, but the (hypothetical) tail end there is more descriptive of first-degree murder than second.
I really have no idea what that DA was thinking charging second degree. Their only realistic shot at a conviction of any kid was involuntary manslaughter, and even then, they'd have their work cut out for them.
Florida law requires the jury to decide and consider the lesser charge of manslaughter regardless of what the DA charged Z with. That's why.
Really? I read an article that said the DA would have to push for that but that would mean they would have to admit they didn't have a strong case. (That's what the article said IIRC it was either the Miami Herald or Orlando Sentinel).
I may be wrong but my understanding of FL law is the Judge informs the jury before deliberation, that they can consider the lesser charges. The DA will go after the more severe charge if the think they have a case, weak or strong.
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See my response above according to the Wall St. Journal that is not the case.
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jc
The main problem here is that some of you guys are regarding one man's version of a story as the truth. We obviously can't hear Trayvon's side of the story.
But what if I told you someone was aggressively following you with a deadly weapon? Would that person be the instigator or have self-defense if you decided to confront them? If that is what happened.
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See my response above according to the Wall St. Journal that is not the case.
I did....Murder 2 comes with an appendage called "lesser included". The lesser in this case being manslaughter. Once approved by the judge, the jury may consider whether it is applicable in light of the evidence.
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If you read what I wrote I have used phrases like "Zimmerman Claims", and "According to Zimmerman", "IF it happened"
And I've already said that it falls onto the burden of the State to prove otherwise. They need to use evidence and hopefully have credible witnesses to prove otherwise. In this case the Prosecution doesn't have that.
To answer your question, If George Zimmerman saw Trayvon, grabbed his gun, loaded it, chased Trayvon down, Trayvon was trying to fight him off and was screaming for help and Zimmerman shot him then yes George is guilty of 1st Degree Murder.
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If you read what I wrote I have used phrases like "Zimmerman Claims", and "According to Zimmerman", "IF it happened"
And I've already said that it falls onto the burden of the State to prove otherwise. They need to use evidence and hopefully have credible witnesses to prove otherwise. In this case the Prosecution doesn't have that.
To answer your question, If George Zimmerman saw Trayvon, grabbed his gun, loaded it, chased Trayvon down, Trayvon was trying to fight him off and was screaming for help and Zimmerman shot him then yes George is guilty of 1st Degree Murder.
I wasn't talking about you or the gun. I was talking about the car. The first thing anyone tells you when you get a car, it's a lethal weapon.
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See my response above according to the Wall St. Journal that is not the case.
I did....Murder 2 comes with an appendage called "lesser included". The lesser in this case being manslaughter. Once approved by the judge, the jury may consider whether it is applicable in light of the evidence.
I can't find anything that supports your statement. The NY Times states that the Prosecution can request it but nothing that says the Judge can instruct it on his/her own merit.
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Mr. Weiner suggested that the prosecutor might have “overcharged” to retain the option, should she feel a murder conviction is slipping away, of asking the judge to instruct the jury to consider lesser offenses, like manslaughter. It is also possible, he said, that she might be trying to coax Mr. Zimmerman to the negotiating table to plead guilty to such a lesser charge. But, he added, it is impossible to say whether it is overly tough, since evidence has not yet been produced.
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Unless Zimmerman was driving up on the curb chasing Martin then I think it would be hard to say he was using his car as a weapon. JMO
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See my response above according to the Wall St. Journal that is not the case.
I did....Murder 2 comes with an appendage called "lesser included". The lesser in this case being manslaughter. Once approved by the judge, the jury may consider whether it is applicable in light of the evidence.
I can't find anything that supports your statement. The NY Times states that the Prosecution can request it but nothing that says the Judge can instruct it on his/her own merit.
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Mr. Weiner suggested that the prosecutor might have “overcharged” to retain the option, should she feel a murder conviction is slipping away, of asking the judge to instruct the jury to consider lesser offenses, like manslaughter. It is also possible, he said, that she might be trying to coax Mr. Zimmerman to the negotiating table to plead guilty to such a lesser charge. But, he added, it is impossible to say whether it is overly tough, since evidence has not yet been produced.
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I understand the judge has to approve it. We are splitting hairs. Z can still be charged with manslaughter in this case.
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Florida law requires the jury to decide and consider the lesser charge of manslaughter regardless of what the DA charged Z with. That's why.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought in your original post you stated that with the Murder2 charge under Florida Law the Jury can take it upon them selves to dole out a lesser charge, and then I thought you stated the Judge can instruct it.
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Florida law requires the jury to decide and consider the lesser charge of manslaughter regardless of what the DA charged Z with. That's why.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought in your original post you stated that with the Murder2 charge under Florida Law the Jury can take it upon them selves to dole out a lesser charge, and then I thought you stated the Judge can instruct it.
No worries .. here is the law. http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter33/schedlesserincludoffens.rtf
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j/c
Still wondering why Martin wasn't considered standing his own ground.
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j/c
Still wondering why Martin wasn't considered standing his own ground.
The jury should consider it in delibiration. I'm not taking sides but this case is far from decided. These lawyers are really, really good.
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Holy crap.....I'm having trouble reconciling that this is real: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/10/Judicial-watch-documents-DOJ DOCS: DOJ PROVIDED SUPPORT FOR TRAYVON RALLIES On Wednesday, Judicial Watch announced that the Department of Justice had turned over documents in response to a Freedom of Information Act request showing that the Community Relations Service (CRS), a small division of the DOJ, was sent to Sanford, Florida after the Trayvon Martin shooting to help manage rallies and protests. In April 2013, Breitbart News' Lee Stranahan first reported the role of the CRS in Sanford. The new documents show that from March 25 through April 12, 2012, the CRS spent thousands of dollars helping organize and “work” marches and demonstrations regarding Trayvon Martin. Tasks included: Working “marches, demonstrations, and rallies related to the shooting and death of an African-American teen by a neighborhood watch captain”;
Providing “support for protest deployment in Florida”;
Providing “technical assistance to the City of Sanford, event organizers, and law enforcement agencies for the march and rally on March 31”;
Providing “technical assistance, conciliation, and onsite mediation during demonstrations planned in Sanford.”
In April, the CRS reportedly “set up a meeting between the local NAACP and elected officials that led to the temporary resignation of police chief Bill Lee according to Turner Clayton, Seminole County chapter president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.”
Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton commented, “These documents detail the extraordinary intervention by the Justice Department in the pressure campaign leading to the prosecution of George Zimmerman. My guess is that most Americans would rightly object to taxpayers paying government employees to help organize racially-charged demonstrations.”
Ben Shapiro is Editor-At-Large of Breitbart News and author of the New York Times bestseller “Bullies: How the Left’s Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences America” (Threshold Editions, January 8, 2013).
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By not taking the stand to testify in a "self defense" case on behalf of yourself, shows to the jury you have something to hide.
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It shows that he has smart lawyers more than anything. Putting Zimmerman on the stand would be suicidal.
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The Community Relations Service is the Department's "peacemaker" for community conflicts and tensions arising from differences of race, color, and national origin. Created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, CRS is the only Federal agency dedicated to assist State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony. I hate it when the government does their jobs! 
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It shows that he has smart lawyers more than anything. Putting Zimmerman on the stand would be suicidal.
I agree with you. Still in a "self defense" case the jury will think he has something to hide now.
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It shows that he has smart lawyers more than anything. Putting Zimmerman on the stand would be suicidal.
I agree with you. Still in a "self defense" case the jury will think he has something to hide now.
I doubt it.
The prosecution's case is way beyond weak. Why would Zimmerman even consider taking the stand? The jury will be instructed that they should not make any judgement on the defendant's exercising of his Constitutional rights.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I don't doubt it. In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
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I don't doubt it. In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
I'm not an attorney............but I would guess if the prosecution had made a compelling case, GZ and his attorneys may have decided to have him testify.
As it is, even the prosecution's witnesses (many of them) are leaving me with quite a bit of doubt as to his guilt. Throw in the defense's case.....I see no reason to put him on the stand.
Again, I'm not an attorney.
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In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
Do you have any facts or stats to back up that claim?
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The Community Relations Service is the Department's "peacemaker" for community conflicts and tensions arising from differences of race, color, and national origin. Created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, CRS is the only Federal agency dedicated to assist State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony.
I hate it when the government does their jobs!
Yea, as long as they are remaining totally neutral, then I have no problem with their involvement.
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I don't doubt it. In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
Nope.
It's like the QB that is already pegged to go #1 overall in the Draft. He's going to skip his Pro Days and maybe even the Combine because he stands a higher chance of hurting his cause than helping it because he doesn't need any help - he's already on top.
If the prosecution isn't calling him, that is a clear statement as any that even they don't see it as helping them, so if you are the defense... why would you upset the apple cart?
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The don't think the prosecution calls the defendant to testify. The defendant makes a choice to testify. He decided not to in his own words. Some of the jury will see it as Z hiding something. That was my only point.
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Prosecution can't compel a defendant to testify, as far as I know.
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The prosecution can't call Zimmerman to the stand, per the Fifth Amendment.
If they could, he would've been their first witness.
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The prosecution can't call Zimmerman to the stand, per the Fifth Amendment.
If they could, he would've been their first witness.
Exactly.. but if he volunteers to testify on his own behalf, then he is open to cross examination.. thich is why most opt to not do it.
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In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
Do you have any facts or stats to back up that claim?
Yes, I do. But I'll let you research them in public records for your lasy arse self tho. 
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In almost every "self defense" case, the defendent takes the stand.
Do you have any facts or stats to back up that claim?
Yes, I do. But I'll let you research them in public records for your lasy arse self tho.
So, in other words, you don't have any facts to back that up. 
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