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Many claim to want to Talk Football, I hope to make a series of these.
To illustrate the ground rules, we can talk about The Run Blocking without getting into the FO, Previous FO, or the one before that. We don't need to address the guy getting the snap. We don't even need to get into whether one RB was drafted wrong, or the other is injury-prone. See how easy this is?
We got one primary back who averaged 3.6. Based on this, our run blocking is graded low. BUT - our "other" RB averaged 4.2, on 60+ carries with no major long runs. He's supposed to be nothing special.
The 3.6 back was a rookie, the 4.2 has some experience and most importantly, appears to hit the hole faster, or takes less time to pick one.
This means to me that any decent back should do well, and our run blocking is not really a problem.
Thoughts?
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Nelson, I like this thread. I'd like to add a few conditions to our running success or lack thereof from last season.
The rookie was adjusting to NFL speed and played with two broken ribs as the season went on. I think those affected his ability to run at a higher level.
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One thing about Trent Richardson is that he was used to setting up deeper in the backfield in college, where he could get the ball and make a decision deeper in the backfield as far as which lane to attack. He got the ball and could see the whole defense.
He had to change to the Shurmur offense when he got here. Plus, he was injured.
I hate to say this, because it does seem to be cliche by now, but I think that Norv Turner's offense will benefit Trent, and it will also benefit Brandon Weeden.
I do really like Trent's blocking and receiving as a rookie. He is the complete package on the field. His only real questions to me are his ability to stay healthy, and his full out top speed. (and that top speed doesn't matter as much to me as the other things he brings)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Here are my bulleted thoughts.
1. Our line as constituted is built much more for pass blocking than run blocking.
2. Many of our players are either young or tall and don't get under people's pads well.
3. We don't generate enough push in short yardage situations.
4. Our FB is beyond terrible. There's probably a Latin word for it but not one in today's English.
Commentary:
Joe Thomas is a good in line run blocker and a very good run blocker in space. He's a HoF pass protector. Pretty big difference but I'd put him in the 10th range as far as run blocking LTs.
John Greco was kind of a surprise to me. He looked light years ahead of where Pinkston was. Maybe that's a juxtaposition with Pinkston when he had a health condition. But Greco looks like a serviceable LG who does nothing great but everything at an acceptable or good level. And I'll take that for now.
Alex Mack is overrated here. He's gotten to be a better pass blocker over the years but he's a real tall guy and more lanky than most C coming into the league. He's not a drive you 3 yards back kind of C but you're not going to get around him in pass pro unless there's a mental error on him or one of the Gs. I'd say he fits somewhere in the Top 10-15 starting Cs. He's certainly nothing better than an average run blocker.
Shaun Lauvao is a much better athlete than people give him credit. He's best getting to the second level than anything he does inline. He's strong though. I think he's the worst pass protector on our line (it's common for the RG to be) and I think he makes the most mental errors (the most breakdowns I've seen come from the C/RG A gap).
Mitchell Schwartz became a very good RT over the course of the season but he didn't start as one. He's got average athletic attributes. Not an elite lateral mover either. But he stopped making errors about midseason. And that's huge! Not sure I've seen a player make a transformation like that in the course of his rookie season. I think it was Prisco that said he hoped Schwartz would become passable. Well he's way beyond that. If he develops physically over the next few years he might be a Top 3 type RT.
Owen Marecic...seriously what the hell are we doing here?!? Seriously!
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Quote:
Owen Marecic...seriously what the hell are we doing here?!? Seriously!
If he had a YouTube highlight reel, it would be scored with 'Yakety Sax'.
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Good old Benny Hill. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
To illustrate the ground rules, we can talk about The Run Blocking without getting into the FO, Previous FO, or the one before that. We don't need to address the guy getting the snap. We don't even need to get into whether one RB was drafted wrong, or the other is injury-prone. See how easy this is?
You have a very condescending tone for someone who wants to get people [peons] to talk, but what the heck........I will play.
--I do think our OL is better at pass blocking than run blocking.
--I do think that Weeden's poor play hurt our running game.
--I think that TRich was indecisive and did not hit the holes like he should have.
--I think that Joe T. is a very underrated run blocker. He is a great gap blocker and is very agile. Very good at the second level, too.
---Greco showed pretty good agility. Good at angle blocking. Trap blocking. Good at chipping and moving to second level.
--Mack is a bit overrated. A little slow of foot. But, he isn't bad.
--Lava is good in tight quarters. He is very strong and if he gets his hands onto you, he can control you. He is not good in space.
--Schwartz is not real strong. He didn't control guys at the LOS.
I think our running game suffered from a myriad of issues and should not be blamed on one person or unit. The poor passing game, the indecisiveness of TRich, and some inadequacies on the OL itself were to blame. I will say that the run blocking of this particular OL will not be too much of an issue if Weeden and TRich improve, although I still think we need to upgrade the RG position.
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Does anyone have a copy of the September 27th game against the Ravens? I'm pretty sure the play I want to see is with 1:34 left in the 3Q. The play by play is: T.Richardson right guard to BLT 43 for 5 yards (A.Jones, T.Cody). I'm pretty sure this is the play that Trent Richardson beats Owen Marecic to the hole on a dive. It is the quintessential Marecic play and I must see it again! It's my birthday! 
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I hate to be the ahole,seeing as how it's your birthday and all,but,if the tailback is following the FB,it's not a dive.
In my mind,the WCO is not a run friendly offense,too complicated and too many rules for a lineman to follow.In time this group would have excelled at it,thankfully time isn't an option.
I like the rightside,add a blocking TE,and of coarse a FB,mix in Turner's power scheme,and the run game will not be a problem this year.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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j/c
I would expect that coaches and Trent himself have studied his game tape carefully and identified the areas to work on. Being more decisive in the hole, making one cut and getting upfield will help his YPC. Equally important will be the new attack passing game that should result in fewer 8 man fronts.
Are we expected to remain primarily a zone blocking OL? If so then footwork, communication, and lateral quickness are keys to a successful running game. Also coordination between linemates must be at a high level. Don't know for sure but I'd suspect the starting line was intact for 12 or more games last year. That should go a long way toward knowing what how to work the combination blocks called for in a zone scheme.
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Quote:
I hate to be the ahole,seeing as how it's your birthday and all,but,if the tailback is following the FB,it's not a dive.
Now you have me confused! What do you call it?
So I Googled dive and I get this: Link
Quote:
Up the middle - Main article: Plunge/Dive
Also called dive, guts, slam or numerous other names. The most basic run play is a run up the middle. In this case, the ball is handed off from the quarterback to a running backs . The back then aims for a predetermined hole between his offensive linemen. This hole can be either between center and guard or between guard and tackle. The offensive line will run block, pushing defenders away from the chosen hole. Often, the fullback will lead block through the hole first to clear a path for the half back or running back.
In a run up the middle, the running back will aim for one of the A or B gaps
Are you thinking about a FB dive out of the I-Formation?
Am I confused? Help me!
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talk football.
If the Browns Def, Line actually takes control of a game the Browns might get a legitimate win, not just a fluke win or a lucky win.
No matter the run blocking, if the Qb is going to line up in the shotgun too much, then the D will know where the ball is, ( stationary) and that is disasterous.
I've seen enough 1 yard out routes hoping to get yac for 10 lifetimes, I don't want to see anymore.
Alex Mack is a bit overrated? Well you don't know what you're going to get out of him any given play, sometimes he seems legit, sometimes it seems like he doesn't get blamed for his problem play.
NO matter how great the run blocking is in any given game, the coaches can't afford to call 11 straight runs up the middle and hope for 5 first downs and a touchdown. This is the NFL that doesn't work.
It never seems like the Browns offense have enough plays that are designed to get a touchdown from anywhere on the field. It seems too often they design things, that if all goes well, they will set up to get in position, get ready to, and then get down real close, and then hope for a touchdown.
Richardson maybe, but do we see a Rb who can beat (or if somehow he gets behind) all 11 defenders and NOT get caught from behind? It needs to be end zone or bust.
Everybody on the field on offense has to be involved in the run blocking, and they need to know how to tackle, because turnovers are a part of life.
The coaches can never go over enough the responsibilities on pass protection on offense, because if you miss it once you lose opportunities on drives.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I hate to be the ahole,seeing as how it's your birthday and all,but,if the tailback is following the FB,it's not a dive.
Or this one: Link
A "dive" (or "plunge") is a type of play in American football in which the ball carrier (usually a fullback or a halfback) attempts to rush through one of the gaps immediately to the left or right of center, denoted as the A gap. It may be run with or without a lead blocker, though when run with a lead blocker it may be called a "lead dive". It is often, though not always, used in short-yardage situations, specifically at the goal line. This play is used with fullbacks or larger, stronger running backs less prone to fumbling because this play values strength over speed. It is distinct from both an end run and an off-tackle run.
Or this one!
Last one! Link - For Dummies!
Blast or dive: The simplest of carries. Usually led by a blocking fullback, the running back takes a quick handoff from the quarterback and hits a hole between an offensive guard and a tackle. The offense calls this run when it needs a yard or two for a first down. The runner lowers his head and hopes to move the pile before the middle linebacker tackles him.
--------------
This was a run where Richardson beats Marecic to the A gap between Mack and Lauvao. It goes for 5 yards but it could have gone for much more if the eventual tackler had been taken care of Marecic.
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Don"t know where that stuff came from,but a FB in the hole 1st is either a lead,iso or power.
Now I'm talking Wing-T here,but that is the basis of all modern run games,a dive is a quick hitter to the upback,normally the fullback,but in a pro set it would be the off back.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Gosh, Vers, It's not like I was thinking Specifically of you when I wrote that, or anything.
Other than there being a huge hole, I don't much really see individual line play. What I saw was our #2 back consistently getting to, and past, the LOS without any significant contact.
I don't so much care that the #1 back did NOT do this, that's not great but it's a DIFFERENT discussion. The other back DID, and enough times that it was no fluke. The holes were there.
We weren't running power sweeps like the old days, but a "nothing special" RB did very well.
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Plunge,lead dive?
I'd have to say those terms were dropped in the 40's,long before my time.But,to a purist,lead and dive are two distinctly different plays.
Last edited by BCbrownie; 07/02/13 09:31 PM.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Hey I'm not that old! I guess I consider a dive a quick hitting A gap play, led by a FB or not. No worries. My whole point is that the lead blocker should never get run over getting to the A gap. Ever. And when it happened I said it was the worst play I've ever seen. Only to be usurped by the buttfumble.
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Someone used to say that a FB was a wasted roster spot and if you needed a lead blocker put a guard back there.The play your referring to demonstrates why that's a bad idea.
Butt fumble that was,and still is hilarious.
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Even though the OL coach remains the same, much of the run scheme will be vastly different. We will see more deep draws, remember Jerome Harrison on those deep draw plays? We will see the unbalanced line once again. 2 tight end sets will be the norm. Chud also likes to use more zone blocking schemes, this should benefit our line.
TRich should find life a bit easier with Chud and Norv attacking deep IF Weed can make teams play for showing blitz. Its funny but Weed hits on just those little dump offs to the RB, he could shatter records. Cam and DA are just horrible at making that dump down.
I do feel we will be a bit better in short yardage because of chemistry and body maturity of the rookie Schwartz. The Draw however is gonna be our homerun play this year.
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Quote:
Does anyone have a copy of the September 27th game against the Ravens?
I'm pretty sure the play I want to see is with 1:34 left in the 3Q. The play by play is: T.Richardson right guard to BLT 43 for 5 yards (A.Jones, T.Cody).
I'm pretty sure this is the play that Trent Richardson beats Owen Marecic to the hole on a dive.
It is the quintessential Marecic play and I must see it again! It's my birthday!
http://www.youtube.com/v/RLZPAqz5e8o&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/v/mRKF9TNeQvk&feature=youtu.be
Last edited by pblack18707; 07/03/13 06:03 AM.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Quote:
Quote:
Owen Marecic...seriously what the hell are we doing here?!? Seriously!
If he had a YouTube highlight reel, it would be scored with 'Yakety Sax'.
If he had a YouTube highlight reel it would not be long enough for anyone to recognize the song.
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I'm no Marecic fan, but watching that play it appears to me that he reached the LOS first, and engaged #53, McClain, effectively.
Did he block at the wrong spot, Trent went more to the left. Did Trent pick a different hole, or did Owen pick the wrong one?
What was Marecic supposed to do on that play?
What was wrong with the run blocking?
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Got to run so apologies for not reading any posts on this thread except that last one.
All I can say is this. X's n O's are fine and dandy but especially in the NFL. Things change with formations who has containment who has what gap responsibilities. So unlike some youth league there is no definite YOU got this guy especially in a position such as FB where the dimensions of the playing field will change as the play evolves. Most of it has to go by VISION n reaction...why I thought Vickers was an excellent blocker...he had great vision as an every down RB in college.
But part of the RBs Vision is to REACT to the FBs block. Also he can set up the block. For the FB position 99% of the time its not OH HE GOT THE WRONG GUY or Blocked him the wrong way. You take advantage of whatever good angle you got and hit him HARD. THE RB has to make a sight adjustment. The 1% bad from FB is just a bad block or whiff. I think that Pct. was a little too high from Marecic (higher than 1%) the 4 out of 4 dropped passes n benching did not help either.
All I can say its a NEW DAWN n NEW DAY with the NEW REGIME. Marecic supposedly worked hard on his body...lets see it on the field.
Quite frankly - I thiink we are going to go with a High Pct. of Two TE formations - pending on the health of what we got there. Marecic better stud out on ST. but by design FB is not of a high concern??? Still not in the "I KNOW" stage...just THINK.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Here are my bulleted thoughts.
4. Our FB is beyond terrible. There's probably a Latin word for it but not one in today's English.
Commentary:
(the most breakdowns I've seen come from the C/RG A gap).
Owen Marecic...seriously what the hell are we doing here?!? Seriously!
So we need a strong FB. I agree.
So maybe that's the "key log" in this situation-the one that breaks the logjam-get a good FB. I like Smelley, he impressed me in camp, and Richardson and he SHOULD have some chemistry but he did nothing after, or did i miss something?
Who is available?
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Quote:
It never seems like the Browns offense have enough plays that are designed to get a touchdown from anywhere on the field. It seems too often they design things, that if all goes well, they will set up to get in position, get ready to, and then get down real close, and then hope for a touchdown.
CLEVELAND BROWNS FOOTBALL!!! 
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Quote:
Alex Mack is a bit overrated? Well you don't know what you're going to get out of him any given play, sometimes he seems legit, sometimes it seems like he doesn't get blamed for his problem play.
NO matter how great the run blocking is in any given game, the coaches can't afford to call 11 straight runs up the middle and hope for 5 first downs and a touchdown. This is the NFL that doesn't work.
i agree 100% with both those statements.
Mack is very good most of the time, but it's every down play that wins you games. He is not there yet.
the other...well i know Chud doesnt think that way so im hoping that goes away!
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looks to me he hit the line first and got blown back into where trent wanted to go. so there was no hole.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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hi nelson excellent post run blocking is very weak god help us if we could run on 3rd and 2 against the steelers and get it.
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like some of your analysis look for the the browns to go deep once they get on there own 35.
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Quote:
I'm no Marecic fan, but watching that play it appears to me that he reached the LOS first, and engaged #53, McClain, effectively.
Did he block at the wrong spot, Trent went more to the left. Did Trent pick a different hole, or did Owen pick the wrong one?
What was Marecic supposed to do on that play?
What was wrong with the run blocking?
My bad guys. Wrong play.
Let me see if I can figure out the right one. If anyone remembers the play I'm talking about chime in.
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j/c
the biggest thing to aide the run game, is to establish a consistent passing attack and void out the number of times we see 8+ man defensive fronts. Consistent passing attack was out of Shurmur and Weeden's vocabulary.
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Quote:
Quote:
Does anyone have a copy of the September 27th game against the Ravens?
I'm pretty sure the play I want to see is with 1:34 left in the 3Q. The play by play is: T.Richardson right guard to BLT 43 for 5 yards (A.Jones, T.Cody).
I'm pretty sure this is the play that Trent Richardson beats Owen Marecic to the hole on a dive.
It is the quintessential Marecic play and I must see it again! It's my birthday!
http://www.youtube.com/v/RLZPAqz5e8o&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/v/mRKF9TNeQvk&feature=youtu.be
Thank you very much for taking the time to find this and post it! I appreciate it! 
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Quote:
I'm no Marecic fan, but watching that play it appears to me that he reached the LOS first, and engaged #53, McClain, effectively.
Did he block at the wrong spot, Trent went more to the left. Did Trent pick a different hole, or did Owen pick the wrong one?
What was Marecic supposed to do on that play?
What was wrong with the run blocking?
marecic got blown into the hole trich was supposed to go?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Lol...
Hillis use to consistently beat Marecic to the hole too... Owen is beyond likely the most pathetic excuse for a fullback.
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sure. might take awhile though.
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It's an interior run where Richardson and Marecic get the hole at the exact same time and T-Rich has to rub past him. When you see it you'll know what I'm talking about. You'll yell at the screen just like I did! First Quarter: 2-20-CLV 28 (2:16) T.Richardson left guard to CLV 31 for 3 yards (H.Ngata, A.McClellan) Second Quarter: 2-10-CLV 20 (12:53) T.Richardson left guard to CLV 25 for 5 yards (P.McPhee, A.McClellan). Second Quarter: 1-10-CLV 17 (9:57) T.Richardson right end to CLV 20 for 3 yards (L.Webb) Third Quarter: 1-10-BLT 35 (7:05) T.Richardson left guard to BLT 33 for 2 yards (A.McClellan, H.Ngata). Check the last one first. You'll know the right one when you look at the play and tell Marecic to "Get Out of the WAY!!!" Thanks!
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If we could access the gameday forums from last year it would be easy to find...  
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Correct! 
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Posts: 4,544 |
yea don't have that game. I was doing the wrong game lol.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Let's Talk Football! #1 - The Run
Blocking
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