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Quote:
I'll end this by asking you ONE QUESTION that I know you will not answer because you never do answer questions:
Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
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*Z{B (¤ o4 u' *Z{B (¢ o4 u' * 0 % 4 {B 75, in an effort to learn how the Steelers turned their franchise around from one that produced only one playoff appearance in their first 36 yrs...turning the franchise into playoff contenders and Super Bowl winners.
dub...I posted my research on the Browns board, titling it "Will the Haslam Way = the Rooney Way". I wanted Haslam and Banner to know that some of our fans did understand the rebuilding process they had just bought into when Haslam purchased the Browns.
I wanted Haslam to continue the rebuilding of the team roster, via the draft...to finish the rebuild that was started in 2010 by Holmgren and Heckert, realizing it was the best way to build the Browns into a winning franchise for the long term. So far, it looks like Haslam is going to finish what was started....but I must admit, my greatest fear continues to be that Joe Banner will find a way to screw this up.
Also, I want to point out that Heckert and Holmgren did an outstanding job of managing the cap and making sure the Browns were loaded with cash when the time came to pursue free agents. That too, was handed to Haslam and Banner on a golden platter though I doubt you will ever hear Banner acknowledge what a favorable situation he was left with.
Joe Banner wants everyone to believe he built this team and any successes they accomplish are because of him. Nothing could be further from the truth...
Dub...you may not understand folks like me who are individuals...individuals who could care less if every single Browns fan on this board agrees with my viewpoint. When I research and write on a subject, the last thing on my mind is, will this please everyone.
Individualism is not a bad quality to have...try it.
Having the courage to NOT follow the pack should not be viewed as a negative quality...but I do understand how easy and convenient it is to be "a follower". You don't have to think for yourself and it's much easier to just agree with something someone else writes...even if you don't believe what they wrote...that happens.
I'm damn proud of my individualism and will never change...and that does not make be wrong or a bad guy. Hopefully now you can reexamine your question and realize how ridiculous it is.
DUB...Just to prove you wrong...I will answer your question...
QUESTION....Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
ANSWER...dub...NO, it does not seem odd to me that all the fans on this board might not "fully agree" with my viewpoint.
....because it's never my goal to please everyone or follow the pack.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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razor...thanks...
I watched the second part this morning on clev.com...never hurts to have the link the link though. 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Quote:
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I'll end this by asking you ONE QUESTION that I know you will not answer because you never do answer questions:
Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
dub...do you like being wrong?
I have no problem answering your question...
About the rest of the board not being "fully" on board with my viewpoints...first, you need to understand a little about who I am..
I didn't join this message board to gain friends and followers for my viewpoints...I'm not a socialite nor do I use this board as my primary source for information on the various football topics discussed.
I do a lot of research, in an effort to gain knowledge on the topics of discussion. You may find that odd...but it is part of who I am.
Life experiences have taught me that much of the print produced by the media is agenda driven and sometimes meant to improve ones image...therefore I dig to find out if there is more to a story.
I do not go around this message board cheerleading and campaigning for support for my positions or sending out IMs to try gain support for my viewpoints...like some I know.
dub...you may not like it or you might have trouble understanding why I'm not "a follower" of any group or clique on this message board...it's just something about me as I have never been "a follower" even as a kid. I have never felt the need to have others agree with my opinions to have confidence in my own opinion.
I'm on this message board because I love football and the Cleveland Browns...who have been the only NFL team I have supported for the last 50 yrs or so. When the Browns didn't have a team, I stopped watching NFL football until the Browns returned.
Since the Browns returned in 99, it has been one nightmare management team after another...constant changes...you can't win doing that because not only are their front office and coaching changes, but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept".
After one year of Mangini, the Browns roster looked like a mismatch of mainly aging and overpaid free agent castoffs from the Jets and Patriots.
I like what Holmgren and Heckert decided to do...a complete tear down... and a rebuild of the Browns roster, VIA THE DRAFT. Most Browns fans have no idea how rare it is in the NFL to do what Heckert and Holmgren did, but given the state of the Browns roster after the 2009 season, it was warranted.
I realized it would take years for the results to materialize, but it had to be done. No more quick fixes for the short term gain. I can honestly say that most Browns fans didn't realize nor have the stomach for such a sacrifice and the local media was worse than the fans. Most fans and media still wanted the "win now", "win quick" type of football and many believed that is what they were getting with Holmgren and Heckert's plan.
I do fault Holmgren and Heckert for not better explaining to the fans and media that the team was not likely to be competitive until most of the offensive and defensive holes had been filled via the draft and then another year for the least experienced players to gain the needed experience to begin winning.
But, in 2010, HAD Holmgren said he didn't expect the Browns to be playing .500 ball until year four (2013), how would the fans and media have reacted? A comment from Heckert or Holmgren like that would have likely given Jr. a heart attack.
I had no problem waiting for the results to materialize because all the other attempts at producing a winner had failed. A total rebuild needed to be done...whether the fans and media were on board or not.
Over two years ago, I became curious about the other teams that had gone through such a rebuild and began looking for a good example to compare to. That is when I realized just how rare it was for a NFL franchise to even attempt such a rebuild. I had to go back to 1969 to find a franchise that successfully completed a complete tear down and rebuild of their roster, via the draft.
I researched every draft pick the Steelers made from 1969 to 75, in an effort to learn how the Steelers turned their franchise around from one that produced only one playoff appearance in their first 36 yrs...turning the franchise into playoff contenders and Super Bowl winners.
dub...I posted my research on the Browns board, titling it "Will the Haslam Way = the Rooney Way". I wanted Haslam and Banner to know that some of our fans did understand the rebuilding process they had just bought into when Haslam purchased the Browns.
I wanted Haslam to continue the rebuilding of the team roster, via the draft...to finish the rebuild that was started in 2010 by Holmgren and Heckert, realizing it was the best way to build the Browns into a winning franchise for the long term. So far, it looks like Haslam is going to finish what was started....but I must admit, my greatest fear continues to be that Joe Banner will find a way to screw this up.
Also, I want to point out that Heckert and Holmgren did an outstanding job of managing the cap and making sure the Browns were loaded with cash when the time came to pursue free agents. That too, was handed to Haslam and Banner on a golden platter though I doubt you will ever hear Banner acknowledge what a favorable situation he was left with.
Joe Banner wants everyone to believe he built this team and any successes they accomplish are because of him. Nothing could be further from the truth...
Dub...you may not understand folks like me who are individuals...individuals who could care less if every single Browns fan on this board agrees with my viewpoint. When I research and write on a subject, the last thing on my mind is, will this please everyone.
Individualism is not a bad quality to have...try it.
Having the courage to NOT follow the pack should not be viewed as a negative quality...but I do understand how easy and convenient it is to be "a follower". You don't have to think for yourself and it's much easier to just agree with something someone else writes...even if you don't believe what they wrote...that happens.
I'm damn proud of my individualism and will never change...and that does not make be wrong or a bad guy. Hopefully now you can reexamine your question and realize how ridiculous it is.
DUB...Just to prove you wrong...I will answer your question...
QUESTION....Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
ANSWER...dub...NO, it does not seem odd to me that all the fans on this board might not "fully agree" with my viewpoint.
....because it's never my goal to please everyone or follow the pack.
Over 1,000 rambling words to say 'I don't care that everyone thinks my opinion is crazy'.
Couldn't really sum it up any better than that. 
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Over 1,000 rambling words to say 'I don't care that everyone thinks my opinion is crazy'.
Couldn't really sum it up any better than that.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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dub...do you like being wrong?
I don't mind it a bit. I'm often wrong. It's one of the ways I learn and acknowledge the lesson.
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I have no problem answering your question...
For the first time in a decade.
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I do a lot of research, in an effort to gain knowledge on the topics of discussion. You may find that odd...but it is part of who I am.
I don't find it odd at all. It's the same thing I do. The same thing many of us do. But you wave it like a flag as though you were the only one researching a subject and therefore the only one qualified to form a worthy opinion.
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Since the Browns returned in 99, it has been one nightmare management team after another...constant changes...you can't win doing that because not only are their front office and coaching changes, but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept".
I agree and you will find many who agree with this same issue. You are not alone in this understanding.
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I realized it would take years for the results to materialize, but it had to be done. No more quick fixes for the short term gain. I can honestly say that most Browns fans didn't realize nor have the stomach for such a sacrifice and the local media was worse than the fans. Most fans and media still wanted the "win now", "win quick" type of football and many believed that is what they were getting with Holmgren and Heckert's plan.
...I had no problem waiting for the results to materialize because all the other attempts at producing a winner had failed. A total rebuild needed to be done...whether the fans and media were on board or not.
I too was fully on board with taking the needed time to build through the draft. I also believe that this season H&H would have done much the same as Banner & Co. did by bringing in a couple of quality FA's since the team has a foundation of young players to build upon.
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Also, I want to point out that Heckert and Holmgren did an outstanding job of managing the cap and making sure the Browns were loaded with cash when the time came to pursue free agents. That too, was handed to Haslam and Banner on a golden platter though I doubt you will ever hear Banner acknowledge what a favorable situation he was left with.
In all your research you should have noticed that Banner did acknowledge on several occasions that taking over the duty of turning the Browns around was attractive precisely because there was a roster of good young talent to work with.
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Joe Banner wants everyone to believe he built this team and any successes they accomplish are because of him. Nothing could be further from the truth...
Exactly. Nothing could be further from the truth than that Banner wants everyone to believe he built this team and any successes they accomplish are because of him. As I said above, Banner has stated on several occasions the Browns were an attractive situation to take over. I don't know how you missed that unless you chose to ignore it.
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Dub...you may not understand folks like me who are individuals...individuals who could care less if every single Browns fan on this board agrees with my viewpoint. When I research and write on a subject, the last thing on my mind is, will this please everyone.
Individualism is not a bad quality to have...try it.
Anyone can understand if you "could care less if every single Browns fan on this board agrees with your viewpoint". I was not talking about "every single fan on this board, I was talking about virtually zero fans on this board being able to understand your passionate hate for Banner and every move he makes is not only wrong but made as though he were a psychopathic deviant hell bent on ruining this franchise.
In addition, I am an individual in my opinion. What might make it seem otherwise to you is that there are others who share some of the same opinions I do which to you must look like I am following them because it seems you believe that would be the only way someone else could agree with me. Since no one shares your opinions you consider them to be followers of each other leaving you the only one with the quality of individualism.
A bit of advice... when you find yourself at odds with virtually everyone it would behoove you to look at your own opinions and wonder if there is a possibility that maybe you are a bit off base in the conclusions you come to which forms your opinions.
I won't go so far as to say, "Well, everybody else can't be wrong", because sometimes everybody else is wrong. But in this case I don't see it. Some of your conclusions are so bizarre that it cannot possibly be that the rest of us are that far beyond reality.
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DUB...Just to prove you wrong...I will answer your question...
Part of my point about your need to be right. "Just to prove me wrong" you answered my question. I made it easy for you. All you had to do was answer to make me wrong. There were no right or wrong answer. Any answer would do. Unlike other questions so many of us have asked of you, you chose to answer this one because there was zero possibility of being wrong so long as you answered. But many questions to you have gone unanswered because you had no answer that would have made you right and being right is paramount to your existence.
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QUESTION....Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
ANSWER...dub...NO, it does not seem odd to me that all the fans on this board might not "fully agree" with my viewpoint.
Again, I never asked why "all the fans on this board" do not "fully agree" with your viewpoints." I asked why "not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoint".
There is a big difference there and you twisted the words in my question to make it sound like an unreasonable challenge which is common and typical of your type of debate.
In addition, your misreading of the question puts in doubt the quality of your research conclusions because it's likely you've misread a lot of the information you've seen online and mentally re-worded it to fit the way you want it to be.
#gmstrong
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Over 1,000 rambling words to say 'I don't care that everyone thinks my opinion is crazy'.
Couldn't really sum it up any better than that.
Why is mac not entitled to his opinion without being ridiculed? Whether you agree or not, his posts are intelligently articulated...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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Quote:
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Over 1,000 rambling words to say 'I don't care that everyone thinks my opinion is crazy'.
Couldn't really sum it up any better than that.
Why is mac not entitled to his opinion without being ridiculed? Whether you agree or not, his posts are intelligently articulated...
You honestly don't think he should be ridiculed for his constant assertions that Joe Banner is a sociopath whose decisions are guided by his need to hurt others?
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Quote:
Quote:
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Over 1,000 rambling words to say 'I don't care that everyone thinks my opinion is crazy'.
Couldn't really sum it up any better than that.
Why is mac not entitled to his opinion without being ridiculed? Whether you agree or not, his posts are intelligently articulated...
You honestly don't think he should be ridiculed for his constant assertions that Joe Banner is a sociopath whose decisions are guided by his need to hurt others?
Nope! Opinions can be challenged, but a poster should never be ridiculed....my opinion of course.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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So if I constantly voiced my displeasure over the Browns drafting Barkevious Mingo because I was convinced that he was an alien from the dark side of the moon who is attempting to infiltrate human society so he can destroy it, you don't think I should be ridiculed for such an opinion?
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Legend
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Personally, I think you should be applauded for your imagination.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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As long as he played in the SEC, it's cool...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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As long as he played in the SEC, it's cool...
I understand that the SEC has a great track record for churning out NFL talent, but the guy is an alien from the moon.
Can you really trust an alien from the moon to produce at a high NFL-level? Especially when you're risking the survival of the human race?
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 Parking is on the left Barkevious.
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As long as his age is correct.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Legend
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So if I constantly voiced my displeasure over the Browns drafting Barkevious Mingo because I was convinced that he was an alien from the dark side of the moon who is attempting to infiltrate human society so he can destroy it, you don't think I should be ridiculed for such an opinion?
No, you should be applauded because it is further evidence of Banner being mentally unstable.
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mac takes way too much crap on this board. Frankly, you do too, for different reasons.
Its a message board. People are entitled to their opinions. And honestly, until Joe Banner produces a consistent winning team just exactly how do we know mac is wrong about anything he says?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Banner's success or failure will do nothing to validate or invalidate mac's opinion, unless it somehow comes out that Banner made his football decisions based on what would do the most to hurt people and create turmoil.
I'm not trying to debate him on whether or not Banner is the right hire. I'm telling him it's crazy to assert so adamantly that Banner is a sociopath. I have no idea where that was born from. Maybe he had a crappy father or boss somewhere along the line and projected his feelings towards them onto Banner.
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Its a message board. People are entitled to their opinions.
Coming from you------------priceless.
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And honestly, until Joe Banner produces a consistent winning team just exactly how do we know mac is wrong about anything he says?
So, you think that Banner is mentally ill? Seriously?
I would say he is dead wrong on that. I would say that type of thinking is fueled by pure hate and has no basis in the truth. But, like you say..........everyone is entitled to their opinions. 
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Good morning Mac...I hate to pile on but I just wanted to touch base on this one subject out of many. It did confuse me a bit.
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Since the Browns returned in 99, it has been one nightmare management team after another...constant changes...you can't win doing that because not only are their front office and coaching changes, but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept".
What is confusing is that you seem to be looking for another change by your negative view of Banner...Why more change where you say it is a definite wrong. 
As ddub stated many of us hold that similar viewpoint. Continuity is so so needed for this franchise.
But I understand a new owner wanting his Billion $$ investment to go HIS WAY. I have no problem with that. Continuity his way and the one big difference between Haslam n Randy (who I liked) is that HASLAM knows what "HIS WAY" is. He said it from day one. Attack D n O.
Coaching changes...I thought our Leadership was not good at all. Jauron was ok...although I do hate the read n react D...I personally love Attack D.
Another thing that confused me was the later part of your statement but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept"
Excellent statement that I agree on. But I don't see this ROSTER TURNOVER.
The only drafted player from 2010-2012 (3 years definitely our big youth movement under Heckert) that left - was a trade for Lewis (RB) from the Eagles...I though an excellent move btw.
But when I look at the roster...I see 42..yes FORTY-TWO Players on our roster from last season...and I'm sure there are one or two that were on that I just didn't recognize cause they were low level guys added on during the season.
This would certainly show you that this premise you have of Banner is just wrong. I do agree in the past regime changes there was a great upheaval of the roster n I agree on the statement that it has held us down. But I disagree that is what is transpiring this time. Actually I have to give Banner credit where credit is due. There is no upheaval of the roster.
I also have to give credit where credit is due...this is also true because of the good job Heckert did in giving us a youth Foundation. We just aren't changing it...personnel wise. We are changing the coaches n the system. Quite frankly in my opinion a very very positive way. Attack D...Attack O its the way to go!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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What is confusing is that you seem to be looking for another change by your negative view of Banner...Why more change where you say it is a definite wrong.
EO...that is your opinion...
I happen to believe that Banner is not the man to be in charge of the football side of the Browns... I believe he will use his background in finance to guide his decision making on the football side.
Banner did poison the Eagles locker room...I don't want to see Banner do the same thing here in Cleveland.
Lombari was hired to be Banner's yes man...surely you know that?
Banner has never been in charge of the football side and Lombardi has never been a GM...not exactly what I would call a strong front office.
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Another thing that confused me was the later part of your statement but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept"
Excellent statement that I agree on. But I don't see this ROSTER TURNOVER.
EO...now you resort to taking this comment out of context when I clearly point out that the issues I spoke of were fron 99 to Mangini after his first season.
Here, read my post in it's entirety...
dub...do you like being wrong?
I have no problem answering your question...
About the rest of the board not being "fully" on board with my viewpoints...first, you need to understand a little about who I am..
I didn't join this message board to gain friends and followers for my viewpoints...I'm not a socialite nor do I use this board as my primary source for information on the various football topics discussed.
I do a lot of research, in an effort to gain knowledge on the topics of discussion. You may find that odd...but it is part of who I am.
Life experiences have taught me that much of the print produced by the media is agenda driven and sometimes meant to improve ones image...therefore I dig to find out if there is more to a story.
I do not go around this message board cheerleading and campaigning for support for my positions or sending out IMs to try gain support for my viewpoints...like some I know.
dub...you may not like it or you might have trouble understanding why I'm not "a follower" of any group or clique on this message board...it's just something about me as I have never been "a follower" even as a kid. I have never felt the need to have others agree with my opinions to have confidence in my own opinion.
I'm on this message board because I love football and the Cleveland Browns...who have been the only NFL team I have supported for the last 50 yrs or so. When the Browns didn't have a team, I stopped watching NFL football until the Browns returned.
Since the Browns returned in 99, it has been one nightmare management team after another...constant changes...you can't win doing that because not only are their front office and coaching changes, but roster turnover increases with each new coaching scheme...thus helping to destroy the "team concept".
After one year of Mangini, the Browns roster looked like a mismatch of mainly aging and overpaid free agent castoffs from the Jets and Patriots.
I like what Holmgren and Heckert decided to do...a complete tear down... and a rebuild of the Browns roster, VIA THE DRAFT. Most Browns fans have no idea how rare it is in the NFL to do what Heckert and Holmgren did, but given the state of the Browns roster after the 2009 season, it was warranted.
I realized it would take years for the results to materialize, but it had to be done. No more quick fixes for the short term gain. I can honestly say that most Browns fans didn't realize nor have the stomach for such a sacrifice and the local media was worse than the fans. Most fans and media still wanted the "win now", "win quick" type of football and many believed that is what they were getting with Holmgren and Heckert's plan.
I do fault Holmgren and Heckert for not better explaining to the fans and media that the team was not likely to be competitive until most of the offensive and defensive holes had been filled via the draft and then another year for the least experienced players to gain the needed experience to begin winning.
But, in 2010, HAD Holmgren said he didn't expect the Browns to be playing .500 ball until year four (2013), how would the fans and media have reacted? A comment from Heckert or Holmgren like that would have likely given Jr. a heart attack.
I had no problem waiting for the results to materialize because all the other attempts at producing a winner had failed. A total rebuild needed to be done...whether the fans and media were on board or not.
Over two years ago, I became curious about the other teams that had gone through such a rebuild and began looking for a good example to compare to. That is when I realized just how rare it was for a NFL franchise to even attempt such a rebuild. I had to go back to 1969 to find a franchise that successfully completed a complete tear down and rebuild of their roster, via the draft.
I researched every draft pick the Steelers made from 1969 to 75, in an effort to learn how the Steelers turned their franchise around from one that produced only one playoff appearance in their first 36 yrs...turning the franchise into playoff contenders and Super Bowl winners.
dub...I posted my research on the Browns board, titling it "Will the Haslam Way = the Rooney Way". I wanted Haslam and Banner to know that some of our fans did understand the rebuilding process they had just bought into when Haslam purchased the Browns.
I wanted Haslam to continue the rebuilding of the team roster, via the draft...to finish the rebuild that was started in 2010 by Holmgren and Heckert, realizing it was the best way to build the Browns into a winning franchise for the long term. So far, it looks like Haslam is going to finish what was started....but I must admit, my greatest fear continues to be that Joe Banner will find a way to screw this up.
Also, I want to point out that Heckert and Holmgren did an outstanding job of managing the cap and making sure the Browns were loaded with cash when the time came to pursue free agents. That too, was handed to Haslam and Banner on a golden platter though I doubt you will ever hear Banner acknowledge what a favorable situation he was left with.
Joe Banner wants everyone to believe he built this team and any successes they accomplish are because of him. Nothing could be further from the truth...
Dub...you may not understand folks like me who are individuals...individuals who could care less if every single Browns fan on this board agrees with my viewpoint. When I research and write on a subject, the last thing on my mind is, will this please everyone.
Individualism is not a bad quality to have...try it.
Having the courage to NOT follow the pack should not be viewed as a negative quality...but I do understand how easy and convenient it is to be "a follower". You don't have to think for yourself and it's much easier to just agree with something someone else writes...even if you don't believe what they wrote...that happens.
I'm damn proud of my individualism and will never change...and that does not make be wrong or a bad guy. Hopefully now you can reexamine your question and realize how ridiculous it is.
DUB...Just to prove you wrong...I will answer your question...
QUESTION....Does it seem odd to you that absolutely not one of all the Browns fans on this message board can fully get on board with your viewpoints?
ANSWER...dub...NO, it does not seem odd to me that all the fans on this board might not "fully agree" with my viewpoint.
....because it's never my goal to please everyone or follow the pack.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Thanks for re-posting that long winded, rambling rant about your individualism.
We all needed a refresher.
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LOL, all I was thinking was TLDNR
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While I think it's hilarious to psychoanalyse Banner from afar, I'd like to point out that mac at least has been more consistent pre-and post hire than most. I remember pretty much the WHOLE board fearing Banner having ANY say in football related matters and NOBODY wanted Lombardi in any capacity.
Well, half a year later, the same crowd is mostly pom pom cheerleading the same feared tandem of Banner-Lombardi while mac has remained consistent, though his dislike for Banner, the CEO/GM has turned into blind hate of Joe, the man, which is both rightfully ridiculed but also distracting from the argumentative consistency.
Sure, people can change their opinions, but a 180 like most on here did without even a game played, to me is as laughable as mac's excursion into psychoanalysis....let's not forget that
#gmstrong
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Thanks for re-posting that long winded, rambling rant about your individualism.
We all needed a refresher.
pdr...it was not meant for you...it was not addressed to you...
it was meant for EO...guess you missed that...
Reading comprehension not too good today?
..just wanted to make sure EO had the full context of the post, which already answered some of his concerns.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Quote:
Thanks for re-posting that long winded, rambling rant about your individualism.
We all needed a refresher.
pdr...it was not meant for you...it was not addressed to you...
it was meant for EO...guess you missed that...
Reading comprehension not too good today?
..just wanted to make sure EO had the full context of the post, which already answered some of his concerns.
The post was at the very top of this page. You could have directed him there. You could have linked it, as well. I don't really see why you felt the need to reiterate a 1,000+ word post that is available to see by simply scrolling up.
But, hey, free country. Have at it. Personally, when I make an embarrassing post, I kind of hope it just goes unnoticed or gets buried in the fray. I certainly don't re-post it on the same page.
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I think most, at this point, are willing to argue the individual moves and overall offseason rather than continuing on harping on the FO.
there are many worries about the glaring holes that were left untouched this offseason.
#gmstrong
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But, hey, free country. Have at it. Personally, when I make an embarrassing post, I kind of hope it just goes unnoticed or gets buried in the fray. I certainly don't re-post it on the same page.
No kidding. There have been more than a few occasions where I have tried to bump threads, hoping I could simply bury my dumb comments....that or answer everybody on every comment so I could push it a page or two back. It usually doesn't work 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think most, at this point, are willing to argue the individual moves and overall offseason rather than continuing on harping on the FO.
there are many worries about the glaring holes that were left untouched this offseason.
And thankfully, camp is about to open and we will have some fresh material to grind out.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Seriously? You, of all people, have the balls to insinuate that I'm intolerant of other people's opinions? That's rich coming from a guy who will consistently come on here and tell guys how wrong they are about, well, just about everything.
My opinion on Banner is that the main reason that you're in love with him is that he's pretty much just like you. He's a legend in his own mind.
Now, he may be the greatest FO guy we've ever had. He may turn out to be a total turd. Just as with the other guys we've had running the operations in Berea I'm willing to wait to see how he does before I put him on a pedestal or tar and feather him. You've got him already mounting that pedestal while mac has the tar bucket warming up. I don't see any real value in either opinion.
But you both have the right to make your case. However, crazy either one may seem.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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While I think it's hilarious to psychoanalyse Banner from afar, I'd like to point out that mac at least has been more consistent pre-and post hire than most. I remember pretty much the WHOLE board fearing Banner having ANY say in football related matters and NOBODY wanted Lombardi in any capacity.
Well, half a year later, the same crowd is mostly pom pom cheerleading the same feared tandem of Banner-Lombardi while mac has remained consistent, though his dislike for Banner, the CEO/GM has turned into blind hate of Joe, the man, which is both rightfully ridiculed but also distracting from the argumentative consistency.
Sure, people can change their opinions, but a 180 like most on here did without even a game played, to me is as laughable as mac's excursion into psychoanalysis....let's not forget that
Hmm.. I think I've changed my opinion a little bit.. I was initially nervous about Banner and dead set against Lombardi. I've slowly come around to Banner and in no small part because of his muzzling Lombardi and keeping him out of sight. Good move. I still want no part of ML.
I hope Banner keeps growing on me and I very much hope he makes good decisions for the Browns. I'm cautiously optimistic about the FO. I've already said it but I'm really not impressed with the ownership. Just my opinion.
SaintDawg™
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I reallized it would take years for the results to materialize, but it had to be done. No more quick fixes for the short term gain. I can honestly say that most Browns fans didn't realize nor have the stomach for such a sacrifice and the local media was worse than the fans. Most fans and media still wanted the "win now", "win quick" type of football and many believed that is what they were getting with Holmgren and Heckert's plan.
Some of us took the fool at his word, Pig Face that is, which was, “We are about winning, period.” His idiot coaching hire Shurmur said and I quote, “ Any other talk other then winning is wasted talk.”
So if we hold him to his word then FIRED he deserved. The irony is he fell victim to the same sword he wielded on Mangini, who if you really knew the FACTS was the guy that set in motion curing our budget problems and stock piled draft picks along the way, which allowed Heckert to work his magic.
Bottom line though Mangini was the guy that got us moving towards the draft and he is the guy that began the process that put our books back in order, but you like most haven't the slightest clue about the how, what, where, or when, you simply loved the Pig Face, and you bought one of his used cars. You know the beautiful car with no engine.
Anyone that loved and believed in PF also believes in Santa, and the tooth fairy, we were going nowhere with his hand picked HC, running his dated offense.
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I fault Holmgren and Heckert for not better explaining to the fans and media that the team was not likely to be competitive until most of the offensive and defensive holes had been filled via the draft and then another year for the least experienced players to gain the needed experience to begin winning.
He fired Mangini for not winning then went out and put up 4 frigging wins running his system with his hand picked HC, after saying he was about winning and after firing a damned good HC for NOT WINNING. The question is when do the lights come on for YOU? He didn't get a raw deal he got what he gave and deservedly so.
You may not believe this but firing PF and his HC will be viewed in the years that follow as the move that saved the franchise. PF was a LOSER, nobody but Randy would EVER be stupid enough to hire that fat lazy piece-a.
You cry about the franchise from 99 on and fail to recognize the reasons for our failings weren't wrapped up in the quality of the people that were hired but were a reflection of the unsteady hand of a owner whom had no clue, and who in reality over reacted every time the fans or the media said one negative thing about the FO or the coaching staff.
So the real research you claim you did, never happened, you just bought a used car from Pig Face, and now your complaining because the car was a piece-a- but your to in love to see it.
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2010, HAD Holmgren said he didn't expect the Browns to be playing .500 ball until year four (2013), how would the fans and media have reacted? A comment from Heckert or Holmgren like that would have likely given Jr. a heart attack.
The truth is Pig Face was is and will always be a liar, period. To bad you haven't figured it out YET.....
BTTB
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I for one remember being skeptical about Banner taking over football operations. And I didn't want Lombardi here either.
Then comes the Pluto interviews over the weekend with Banner and as I've said recently, I'm kinda warming to the guy.. Am I ready to pronounce him the CEO of the year in the NFL,, Oh hell no. but I'm not, at this point, ready to boil him in oil either.
I didn't see the players in Mini's and OTA's so I don't know what they are all capable of in these new systems. Banner and the coaching staff have and they obviously know more than I'll ever know about the details of the game.
My guess is they aren't happy with all positions. But upgrading everything in one year is way to much to ask.
I actually don't ever remember having a regime in here where something wasn't questioned or where everyone was happy happy all the time. I don't remember a time when we were even close to that.
But Macs outright hate for banner? Where did that come from and why?
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But Macs outright hate for banner? Where did that come from and why? ________________________________________________________________________________ He fired PF.................Which actually makes him alright in my book.. He may not be all that and a bag of chips at the end of the day but without question he got the PF firing 1000% correct................ 
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Quote:
I remember pretty much the WHOLE board fearing Banner having ANY say in football related matters and NOBODY wanted Lombardi in any capacity...
...Sure, people can change their opinions, but a 180 like most on here did without even a game played, to me is as laughable as mac's excursion into psychoanalysis....let's not forget that
Oh, so now you're picking on me, as I resemble that remark. Well now it's on!
Actually I did hold the opinion you describe in the first sentence above. All I knew about Banner was the mac-like articles about playing hardball and then releasing fan favorite players causing locker room dissension and finally his ouster from Philly. I thought oh great, now we get this guy to preside over our team.
However, I'm not one for keeping a knee-jerk reaction as my permanent mind-set so I did something only me and mac do, I searched out more information and read everything I could about the guy. Granted, a lot of it was bad. But then when a franchise is going down the tubes the local media are relentless in their witch hunt of whomever they feel is to blame.
I remember during RAC's tenure and the calling for his head was beginning, here on a local Cleveland TV station, Channel 19, there was an announcement to be sure and watch the sports portion of the "news at 11" tonight because there was to be an important announcement regarding the Browns. So, not wanting to miss an important event I made sure to tune in. What the "important announcement" turned out to be was the station's sportscaster telling everyone that "Romeo Crennel must go!" That was it. His venomous opinion and nothing more.
That's what happens once the local media has made a decision to turn on the blame toward someone who they feel is screwing up their sports team. In the case of Banner there is no shortage of "Banner blaming" during that era in Philly so much can be uncovered to bolster an argument against him.
But further research, you know, the kind only me and mac do, you will start to get a more "fair and balanced" opinion on what went on there, who might be to blame and who might be a scapegoat. The further you got away from Philly, meaning the further you got away from those too close to the situation to have a fair assessment, the more positives you find regarding Banner and the more dirt you find dug up on others in the organization who may have gone blameless locally but did their share in the Eagles demise. In many ways Banner was not nearly as bad as he was portrayed nor the other guys nearly as blameless as were they.
That softened me a bit on Banner.
Lombardi, on the other hand, we find that even though he was "in on" player evaluation at various stints he was never the sole decision maker nor the final say anywhere. but somehow, for a track record, he was blamed for them. Probably because he has said some things during his tenure as a TV personality/evaluator that with hindsight have shown him to be way off base many times. But I decided that covering all 32 teams on a consistently short deadline for entertainment purposes is one thing whereas focusing solely on one team in a live or die responsibility is quite another.
That softened me a bit on the Lombardi.
Now, when I say "softened me a bit", in both of their cases, what I'm meaning is that I became willing to listen, watch and analyse their actions with a more open mind than I was willing to do before. I was/am definitely in "show me mode" but not as harsh a judge as I was previously when I judged them based on a previous, first impression.
I like a lot of what they've done while at the same time disagree with a few things they haven't done. I think most of us know the specifics of either side of that so unless prodded for specifics I'll leave them out for the purpose of this writing. Actually, we've all been over and over those specifics so many times already.
Now there is another thing that comes into play. I have learned long ago that in dealing with my sports team and having absolutely no authority to change personnel, schemes, game day decisions or the roster that I have a much more enjoyable experience if I set my mind to try and understand what they are trying to accomplish and what means they are using to accomplish it than I do if I am constantly at odds with every decision they make that I might not initially agree with.
That is to say that if you are on a team, the only way for that team to be successful is if, and only if, everyone "buys into" what the team is presenting in the way of things you, as players, cannot change. So my approach, sometimes after I've spewed my disappointments, is to study the regime and try to understand what they are doing and the hows and whys of what they are thinking. I have found that often my disappointments were due to a lack of understanding .
As I said earlier, it's much a more enjoyable experience, and brings me closer to the team than constantly complaining and moaning about their every move. Unless one constructively uses sports as something to bitch about to give the family a break or something to vent over to let off steam, then it's a miserable experience. I don't follow the Browns to receive a miserable experience which serves no valid purpose.
The lack of winning has been miserable enough without adding to it by my own design.
So for me, as one of the "most on here who's done a 180" regarding the FO, it's a matter of enjoying myself and learning about the workings of my team rather than living my sports life in dismal, forsaken, desolate abandon accompanied by constantly expressing dissatisfaction toward their every move.
Now, attack me one more time and I'll bet even more severe with you.
#gmstrong
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Seriously? You, of all people, have the balls to insinuate that I'm intolerant of other people's opinions?
Yes, seriously.
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That's rich coming from a guy who will consistently come on here and tell guys how wrong they are about, well, just about everything.
You're wrong.
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My opinion on Banner is that the main reason that you're in love with him is that he's pretty much just like you. He's a legend in his own mind.
More evidence of your ability to tolerate other posters' opinions, I presume.
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You've got him already mounting that pedestal
I don't have him on a pedestal. I've spoken many times on moves--and non-moves--that I have not liked. I will say that I don't think he is mentally ill and that it's despicable to even make such a fraudulent claim.
Nice talking w/you again, oh tolerant one.
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Well, once again we have digressed from talking football [in a thread that should have been filled w/great football talk] and are instead fighting one another.
--Anyone care to talk about the 11 players?
--The statement about worrying more about staying strong in your plan rather than being popular?
--The comments on Weeden, TRich, and Gordon?
--The trades?
--His hope for the Browns?
--His thoughts on how to build a team, as in building through the draft and FA?
--Anything relating to football? Anyone?
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But Macs outright hate for banner? Where did that come from and why?
________________________________________________________________________________
He fired PF.................Which actually makes him alright in my book..
He may not be all that and a bag of chips at the end of the day but without question he got the PF firing 1000% correct................
It's probably just me, But I'm gonna hate myself for asking this,, Who is PF?
NEVER MIND,, I got it Geesh: Pat Shumur.. Sorry,, brain hiccup.
Last edited by Damanshot; 07/22/13 01:27 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No, that was his name for Holmgren.
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IM SO CONFUSED!?!?! 
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