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Yes. both the Coryell and Walsh systems have been referred to as "West Coast offense" at one time, but they have no real relation to each other.
Since the early 80's when the Walsh system consistently won, it's taken over the name West Coast offense(though it was conceived in Cincinnati) . Air Coryell is being referred to as the "numbers" system, and or the Greatest Show on turf offense now.
Both systems are proven over time and still effective today in various forms. Both have won multiple Super Bowls. But they aren't the same and have completely different lineage. 
True this, but the 'Air Coryell' offense was referred as the "West Coast Offense" first. It was in use before Walsh's version. Walsh's version was a misuse of the term which stuck to it.
On the other points, we'll agree.
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ya know i don't usually post much unless it during the season in the countdown thread...or the gameday thread, but I am so tired of your idiotic BS that I have to post this. I was a construction foreman for over 35yrs and if I had someone like you, you wouldn't have last 15min. before you were fired. and believe me I watched the 64 game so you have nothing on me except you are a single view ass...you say you resreach, but it's only your point and nothing else...I have learned over the yrs. that it's a team effert.. somethings you need the younguns and sometimes you need the older guys, BUT if you're basing your aurgment that Phil was our best player[ then are an idiot and i'll take my 30 days now and it was worth it..
I don't think you should be serving 30 days or even a day. There are a lot of people that mac rubs the wrong side of. There are so many more important things than to let mac get under your skin.
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He comes across as very smart. He is forthright w/his answers and if he doesn't want to talk about something, he comes right out and tells you that. I like that. Makes me think he is more truthful about the things he is saying. I also think that he is going to work his tail off to make sure we succeed, which is a far cry from The Big Show.
vers...clearly you don't understand who Joe Banner is.
Only I do...you see, I do a lot of research. I know that probably seems odd to you and others, as I'm the only one who does this.
But if you had done any research on Joe Banner, you'd know that he lacks empathy....
If someone were to ask you or I why it's wrong to strangle a prostitute, we'd probably come up with a number of reasons.
Joe Banner wouldn't be able to. He wouldn't see anything wrong with strangling a prostitute, if he felt like it.
Where most people hired to run an NFL team would sit down and start thinking of what they need to do to put a winner on the field, a guy like Joe Banner sits down and starts thinking about how he can hurt people.
It's just who he is. He should probably be committed to a mental asylum.
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ya know i don't usually post much unless it during the season in the countdown thread...or the gameday thread, but I am so tired of your idiotic BS that I have to post this. I was a construction foreman for over 35yrs and if I had someone like you, you wouldn't have last 15min. before you were fired. and believe me I watched the 64 game so you have nothing on me except you are a single view ass...you say you resreach, but it's only your point and nothing else...I have learned over the yrs. that it's a team effert.. somethings you need the younguns and sometimes you need the older guys, BUT if you're basing your aurgment that Phil was our best player[ then are an idiot and i'll take my 30 days now and it was worth it..
nor...you are not the first to attempt the angle...that Dawson was not our best player, therefore it was ok for Banner to kick him to the curb.
Vers tried this same childish angle to try avoiding the fact that Banner lied...so nor, you are not alone.
I will post the question and answer again...
Pluto asks..Q: How do you see free agency?
Banner answers...A: Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players.
See that little 's' on the end of "players"? ...that 's' has meaning (plural-more than one)...it does not mean "best player".
Trying to demean Dawson's value to the team is a rather weak attempt to excuse Banner's lie...especially since Dawson had his best performance as a Pro in 2012, earning him Pro Bowl honors. Dawson was not only one of the very best performing Browns, he was one of the very best performers in the entire NFL.
Banner was not talking about retaining just one player or the very best player...Banner was saying..."Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players."
Problem is, Banner history and actions here in Cleveland, do not match his spoken word.
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Calling me childish would be an insult and punishable by a suspension.
And I am sorry if you think I am childish that I believe Joe Thomas is our best player and has been for years now.
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ya know i don't usually post much unless it during the season in the countdown thread...or the gameday thread, but I am so tired of your idiotic BS that I have to post this. I was a construction foreman for over 35yrs and if I had someone like you, you wouldn't have last 15min. before you were fired. and believe me I watched the 64 game so you have nothing on me except you are a single view ass...you say you resreach, but it's only your point and nothing else...I have learned over the yrs. that it's a team effert.. somethings you need the younguns and sometimes you need the older guys, BUT if you're basing your aurgment that Phil was our best player[ then are an idiot and i'll take my 30 days now and it was worth it..
nor...you are not the first to attempt the angle...that Dawson was not our best player, therefore it was ok for Banner to kick him to the curb.
Vers tried this same childish angle to try avoiding the fact that Banner lied...so nor, you are not alone.
I will post the question and answer again...
Pluto asks..Q: How do you see free agency?
Banner answers...A: Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players.
See that little 's' on the end of "players"? ...that 's' has meaning (plural-more than one)...it does not mean "best player".
Trying to demean Dawson's value to the team is a rather weak attempt to excuse Banner's lie...especially since Dawson had his best performance as a Pro in 2012, earning him Pro Bowl honors. Dawson was not only one of the very best performing Browns, he was one of the very best performers in the entire NFL.
Banner was not talking about retaining just one player or the very best player...Banner was saying..."Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players."
Problem is, Banner history and actions here in Cleveland, do not match his spoken word.
He's also excited to join a Super Bowl contender and learn more from special teams mastermind Seeley.
"I'm probably going to be involved with football even after my playing days are over," he said. "The opportunity to sit under a guy once again and learn more football from him. ... I think that'll help with the transition. I'm really looking forward to working with him again."
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
Cleveland Browns franchise kicker Phil Dawson for more than $3 million in 2011
By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
on February 22, 2011 at 5:23 PM, updated February 22, 2011 at 10:12 PM
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Phil Dawson said goodbye to teammates and friends after the Browns 2010 finale, sold his house in Westlake and headed back home to Texas with his wife and kids.
But the veteran kicker's 12-year career with the Browns may not be over, as he thought walking out of Cleveland Browns Stadium on Jan. 2. The Browns on Tuesday designated Dawson as their franchise player for the 2011 season, meaning his offer will be about $3.25 million -- the average of last season's top five salaries at his position.
If the same rules apply under the next collective bargaining agreement, another team can sign Dawson, but would have to surrender two first-round picks to the Browns. The Browns can also match any offer.
The $3.25 million would more than triple Dawson's previous salary of $1 million a year. The Browns' only full-time kicker in the new era, Dawson has been seeking a new deal the past several seasons, but the team hasn't budged.
Dawson, who couldn't be reached for comment, has made an apparent statement about his contract each of the past two years by skipping some of the voluntary organized team activities. He's never gone public about being underpaid, but it's been clear he hasn't been happy.
After the 41-9 loss to Pittsburgh in the season finale, Dawson sounded resigned to being gone, but admitted that he wouldn't rule anything out, "even returning to the Browns."
He added, "For me, it's really going to be what's best for my family. I've earned the right to have that choice [of where to play] and I'm going to take advantage of it. I'll seek my wife's input. We'll get together, my boys are even getting old enough I'll see what they have to say about it. Whenever that time comes, we'll make the best decision for us."
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/02/cleveland_browns_franchise_kic.html
Cleveland Browns kicker Phil Dawson accepts franchise tag, source said
Browns General Manager Tom Heckert said last week that Dawson may have been unhappy about being tagged for the second straight year. His "ultimate goal'' was to sign Dawson to a multi-year deal.
Dawson has declined to comment.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/03/cleveland_browns_kicker_phil_d_3.html
the guy just didn't want to be here anymore. you can babble all you want but you are just being foolish.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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An unusual but intriquing move by Lombardi (I suspect). In a weak draft, it may play out in our favor. However, we may have missed out on a potentially sound player at a position of need: OG/OC. Barrett Jones, Alabama, was there for the taking in rd 4. We may regret this move...
Why do you suspect that? Banner clearly states that there are four men making the decision and that he is the guy who would break ties. Do you have contrary evidence?
And it perplexes me how people still don't understand how trading a 4th and 5th in a weak draft for a 3rd and 4th in a stronger draft isn't a no-brainer. There are some of you who are going to complain about everything the new FO does and will refuse to give them any credit. That is your right. It is also my right to call you out on it.
Btw----Jones was a very decorated lineman, but he is a guy who lacks physical tools. He will most likely be a back-up in the pros and will probably play guard. He is 6'5" which is very, very tall for a guard. He will need help w/strong bull rushers. Yes, he is decorated and very media friendly, but his skill set is that of a back-up lineman. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to complain about us not taking him--when we got a 3rd round pick instead--is.
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Calling me childish would be an insult and punishable by a suspension.
And I am sorry if you think I am childish that I believe Joe Thomas is our best player and has been for years now.
vers...what was it you wrote (in this thread) in an attempt to support Joe Banner's decision to kick Dawson to the curb?
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" Phil was NOT our best player.
Still can't believe all the good comments that are not being addressed and the primary focus is the leaving out of one coach."
I guess I have to do this again...
Here is the question and answer from Pluto's interview, again...
Pluto asks..Q: How do you see free agency?
Banner answers...A: Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players.
See that little 'S' on the end of "players"? ...that 's' has meaning (plural-more than one)...it does not mean "best player".
vers...you do understand that?
I realize it is difficult to backup Banner when he is caught in one of his lies...in this case, not signing one of the very best performing players the Browns had on the roster...Dawson.
The truth is, Banner "failed" to retain one of our very best players.
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I find it puzzling that you quote Vers stating that Dawson was not our best player, yet somehow leave out the quote that he had cited to begin with, which was: Quote:
Banner went cheap, not willing to pay for the best available kicker, not even trying to retain our best player.
He wasn't talking about Banner's answer when he said that, he was responding to your post, and you must have forgotten the 'little S' after player.
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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They're intriguing because we suspect Banner wouldn't have bit on any of them. And because they carry such high risk-reward. And, lastly, because Banner will live with them this season after smartly deferring to the offensive coaches he hired to maximize the players Heckert delivered at quarterback, running back and No. 1 wide receiver.
Picking Brandon Weeden in the first round.
Trading up to draft Trent Richardson and running counter to a league trend in the process.
Taking a second-round flyer on Josh Gordon in the supplemental draft.
Heckert is gone from Berea, not because those moves constituted strike one, two and three. But certainly those choices didn't represent anything Banner would laud as championship architecture.
That was some of the worst drafting I have EVER seen. And yes, I understand that I am in the minority and that most of you think those were great picks.
That draft was so strong. It was loaded w/talent from the early teens to the mid 4th round. We had so many needs and were sitting in a perfect spot. No way was Minni taking Richardson. If a team [reportedly TB] wanted to move up to get TRich, it could have been us to trade w/them. We could have accumulated more picks and strengthened our team.
The Weeden pick was insane. They draft an older Spread QB who played in the shotgun his entire career and didn't have to make reads and expect him to step right in and play in a complicated WCO.  I doubt if the guy is good in any system, but that was as ill of a fit as one could get. I wonder if Heckert was drunk that day? Just kidding. Relax. 
The Gordon pick was not as dreadful, but man, this kid didn't seem to learn from any of his mistakes at Baylor. He failed two drug tests there. And then he failed another at Utah AFTER being booted from his previous university. Then, he lies about it. He has already failed two drug tests in one year in Cleveland. He makes videos of him getting drunk and posts pictures of himself w/a marijuana pipe and a pill bottle w/tape wrapped around it.
In short, Heckert decided to go "sexy" [RB, QB, WR] rather than do the smart thing and trade down. Heck, when you refuse to use FA as a tool, why would you give away picks when you could be accumulating them. Those picks were unbelievably risky and told me all I needed to know about Heckert. I understand that many of you think those were three great picks. They may turn out to be great, but they also may set this franchise back years. As the author said: "But certainly those choices didn't represent anything Banner would laud as championship architecture."
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Thanks. It's amazing how he tries to turn things around. Heck, I actually quoted him and he is now trying to ..................Aaarrrggghhhhh.............never mind.
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
Thanks for posting. Maybe that will end this insane discussion.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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So you're saying its possible the browns went to Phil and asked if he wanted to stay and be said he'd rather go too SB contender for one of hs final years?
<><
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An unusual but intriquing move by Lombardi (I suspect). In a weak draft, it may play out in our favor. However, we may have missed out on a potentially sound player at a position of need: OG/OC. Barrett Jones, Alabama, was there for the taking in rd 4. We may regret this move...
Why do you suspect that? Banner clearly states that there are four men making the decision and that he is the guy who would break ties. Do you have contrary evidence?
And it perplexes me how people still don't understand how trading a 4th and 5th in a weak draft for a 3rd and 4th in a stronger draft isn't a no-brainer. There are some of you who are going to complain about everything the new FO does and will refuse to give them any credit. That is your right. It is also my right to call you out on it.
Btw----Jones was a very decorated lineman, but he is a guy who lacks physical tools. He will most likely be a back-up in the pros and will probably play guard. He is 6'5" which is very, very tall for a guard. He will need help w/strong bull rushers. Yes, he is decorated and very media friendly, but his skill set is that of a back-up lineman. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to complain about us not taking him--when we got a 3rd round pick instead--is.
It is a recognized SOP to trade a pick for a one round earlier pick in next year's draft. This does happen, but infrequently. To do it twice in successive rounds, smacks of Bill Belichick-ish draft philosophy. Thus, I see Lombardi's hand all over those two moves.
I have a great deal of respect for your ability/experience in evaluating talent and their ability to transition to the NFL; it is certainly much greater than mine. I do not mean to imply that you are wrong, nor that I am right, about Barrett Jones. We shall just have to wait-and-see. Incidentally, Jones is "officially" listed at 6-4 which is within the generally accepted range for an OG of 6-2 to 6-4. I'm nit-picking here...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
pblack...so there were negotiations and an offer made to Dawson and his agent ?....
...or NO, that did not happen??
I do thank you for the article as it supports my contention that Banner continued his crazy Philly standard of not signing his own teams free agents who were approaching or beyond 30 yrs old...
A simple phone call to an agent does not indicate that Banner tried to work out a deal to sign Dawson, one of the Browns very best performing players in 2012.
What Banner is claiming in this Pluto interview, does not match Banner's history nor his record in the brief record with the Browns.
Q: How do you see free agency?
A: Winning teams are built through the draft, and by retaining their best players.
In Banner's first opportunity to back up what he says is his priority (resigning your best players)...Banner proved that his words are meaningless and pure BS.
Last edited by mac; 07/22/13 08:15 AM.
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
pblack...so there were negotiations and an offer made to Dawson and his agent ?....or NO, that did not happen??
I do thank you for the article as it supports my contention that Banner continoued his crazy Philly standard of not signing his own teams free agents who were approaching or beyond 30 yrs old...
The two sides talked and for whatever reason (unknown to everyone including you) a formal offer was not made.... Could be Phil was ready to move on (which I think is closer to the truth) or banner is the devil (which you think is closer to the truth)
<><
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
pblack...so there were negotiations and an offer made to Dawson and his agent ?....or NO, that did not happen??
I do thank you for the article as it supports my contention that Banner continued his crazy Philly standard of not signing his own teams free agents who were approaching or beyond 30 yrs old...
It actually doesn't support your invented contention.
You asked for evidence that Banner tried to re-sign Dawson, and it was given to you. Banner had a discussion with Dawson's agent about a new contract. It's right there in black-and-white.
Had the article stated that Dawson's agent called, and Banner told him, 'Don't bother, I don't re-sign players over 30', then you might have a point.
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pblack...if you can show me evidence that Banner tried to resign Phil Dawson, it will change my opinion about the Banner/Dawson situation.
...ball is in your court...show me.
The Browns -- looking to sign players in their mid-20s -- did have a discussion with Dawson's agent, Neil Cornrich, about a new contract.
http://www.neilcornrich.com/2013/03/dawson-makes-extra-point-of-saying-bye.html
Thanks for posting. Maybe that will end this insane discussion.
I admire your optimism
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It actually doesn't support your invented contention.
You asked for evidence that Banner tried to re-sign Dawson, and it was given to you. Banner had a discussion with Dawson's agent about a new contract. It's right there in black-and-white.
Had the article stated that Dawson's agent called, and Banner told him, 'Don't bother, I don't re-sign players over 30', then you might have a point.
pdr...sure it does support what I have been saying all along...Banner continue to use his crazy standard of kicking his own players/free agents, who are approaching or beyond 30, to the curb...refusing to negotiate contracts with them.
It was Banner's favorite tactic in Philly and as it a result, Banner poisoned the Eagles locker room and ultimately, got himself fired...now we see Banner starting the very same crap here in Cleveland with the Dawson situation.
No offer...no negotiations...
It's becoming obvious that many have no clue about what it takes to build a winning football team...kicking your best players to the curb, refusing to negotiate contracts with those players WHO ARE DESERVING...is not how a franchise builds a winner.
One last point...how could two NFL franchises have such a different opinion about the value of Phil Dawson?
...one team looking to win a Super Bowl (49ers), the other team (the Browns) simply going through the motions with their actions no way near their rhetoric.
BTW, the article does not say that Banner contacted Dawson's agent.
Last edited by mac; 07/22/13 08:40 AM.
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j/c:
How about we get back to football and let mac go a little bit? He is obviously trying to ruin the thread. There is a TON of football in that interview we can discuss. One of the best articles I have seen --as far as number of items about football--that I have seen in a long time. Let's discuss it. Please?
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Do you just copy and paste when you post, or do you take the time to type out the same drivel over and over again? I'm not going to waste my time. You asked for evidence of something, and you were given it. I don't think you saw that coming, and now you're digging your hole even deeper. You've been beating this dead horse for far too long. Remember when you thought it was classless that Banner didn't hold a joint press conference with Phil after he signed with the 49ers? 
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How about we get back to football and let mac go a little bit?
well, you did ASK for it 
#gmstrong
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LOL................I guess I did.
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You could be right and it's the proofreader and the editor that don't know jack about the Browns.
Well Pluto did actually leave out Warhop, but like I said, he just made an error. I suggest we nail him to a cross..:LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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...been beating this dead horse for far too long.
The "evidence" suggests that there were negotiations of some sort, but no formal offer submitted. So everybody is right, and as nobody is wrong, let's allow the matter to rest...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Thanks. It's amazing how he tries to turn things around. Heck, I actually quoted him and he is now trying to ..................Aaarrrggghhhhh.............never mind.
I cant believe you guys still try to talk to him.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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In short, Heckert decided to go "sexy" [RB, QB, WR] rather than do the smart thing and trade down. Heck, when you refuse to use FA as a tool, why would you give away picks when you could be accumulating them. Those picks were unbelievably risky and told me all I needed to know about Heckert
Some points here:
1. I agree that Weeden and Gordon were risky picks (though I considered them necessary, more on that in 2.), but TRIch? I hated the pick and even moreso the trade up for it, but "risky"? By all accounts he was THE safest bet in the entire draft, though I was alarmed by the knee "procedures", those were red flags but not even close to Peterson's injury risk pre-draft, the player he was compared to the most. So, if TRich was risky, who were the prospects you wanted in the 1st? I trust you to not give me Rookie All Star hindsight picks since many of the main site board are here too for check-proof. It's easy (and argumentatively weak) to talk about "strong" and "weak" drafts, I want names.
2. RB, QB, and WR also happened to be BY FAR our biggest needs and the FA contracts at those positions are the most over-blown around. I'd like to know, who you would have signed in FA there (plenty of adequate RBs I was screaming for to avoid the TRIch selection btw, but WR and QB? Who?)...and remember that the in house alternatives to start were named Colt McCoy and Cribbs
3. As much as I hated trading UP for TRich, but calling "trading down" the "smart thing to do" is revisionist history. We already had 12-14 picks when the draft started. Everyone expected us to use some of them, though I agree that we wasted them on the wrong uptrade.
4. Sexy over smart? Didn't Banner do the exact same thing with the selection of Mingo, who didn't even represent a major need with Kruger, Sheard and Groves in the fold? Banner also had a trade down proposal in the 1st and Mingo sure is more "sexy" than anything else considering his "questionable" College production
And before you want to go there: no, this is not defending Heckert and trashing Banner or anything personal. I'm just asking for consistency in argumentation, thus the questions, because I think it's hilarious to even suggest much of a "difference" between the two AS OF NOW, as they said/say and did/do the same thing, which is build through the draft (taking some risks and sexy players) and sit on plenty of cap room.with several questionable positions left unattended. No?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
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...been beating this dead horse for far too long.
The "evidence" suggests that there were negotiations of some sort, but no formal offer submitted. So everybody is right, and as nobody is wrong, let's allow the matter to rest...
The issue is mac claims there was no offer because of Phil's age and go on and on and on and on and on about it when it could of easily been Phil's agent telling Banner that Phil wishes to explore other options and wants to move on.
I just look at the time line of Phil's contract.
End of 2010/11 season
Phil is to become an unrestricted Free Agent. He sells his house in Cleveland. Cleans out his locker and tells long time teammates and Browns staff goodbye.
Phil is quoted that he has earned the right to "Play where HE wants to play and wants to take advantage of it."
Browns try to work out a multi-year deal with Phil but in the end they franchise him.
End of 2011/12 season.
Again Tom Heckert goal was to work out a multi-year deal but again they have to Franchise their kicker. Heckert mentions that Phil may not be too happy about being franchised for a second year in a row.
End of 2012/13 season.
Browns can only franchise Phil Dawson if they want to pay him Top QB money which is unrealistic. Even if you have the cap room and all you need is a kicker there is no team out there that is going to pay their kicker $15+ million.
Banner has discussions with Phil's agent. No contract offer is known to happen.
Phil signs with the 49ers, the losing team in the previous Superbowl.
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From here we can only assume what happens. From the previous years my assumption is Phil wanted out and wanted to chase a ring and play for a team that is closer to winning one than the Browns. And he has earned that right.
mac called me out and said I was painting Dawson as the bad guy. mac's logic suggests Banner wanted Phil gone because he was older than 30yo.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Ok, let's go through it. Quote:
Getting something in return for Colt McCoy
and replacing Colt as a backup with Campbell and/or Hoyer. I'll agree this looks like a solid move.
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Not giving up much of anything to land wide receiver Davone Bess
loved this move. we needed a reliable veteran WR, now we have one. add the possibility of Nelson recovering and providing more depth and Benjamin being more comfortable and we have some real WR depth (potentially - of course).
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Trading mid-round picks in a weak draft for better mid-round picks in a presumed stronger draft
well, this is a good move on the surface. and, would have been better if we would have addressed CB2, OG, TE, FB, ILB in UFA. But, we didn't and so we still have glaring holes at those spots. Outside of CB2, the middle rounds often have starting potential guys at all of those other positions (not foolproof guys, but we needed them IMO).
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Picking Brandon Weeden in the first round.
Trading up to draft Trent Richardson and running counter to a league trend in the process.
Taking a second-round flyer on Josh Gordon in the supplemental draft.
Weeden & Gordon were risky picks. We'll see how they pan out in the long-run. Richardson wasn't really risky and it seemed like Heckert knew we had too many draft picks and got over-anxious about losing Richardson (after losing RGIII), but it also looks like TB had real inquiries about trading up (rumors beforehand, then they end up taking Doug Martin in the 1st round).
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The Gordon decision might outrank the other two as questionable moves in Banner's mind for reasons that included the wide receiver's inexperience and his lifestyle issues
I do wonder what our current FO thinks as far as off-field issues. Heckert was willing to gamble on them (Taylor, Sheard, Gordon, etc.). Hard to say from the 1st draft what Banner's view is on them.
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the Browns are taking the smart approach in giving Weeden every chance to succeed.
hiring coaches - yes.
getting WR depth - sure, though the starters are carry-overs
backup QBs - I think we're better there too (not sure it helps Weeden though)
however, we are sitting on $30mil in cap room. we haven't yet extended our young corps. and, we didn't look to improve at TE (Watson gone), OG (no major moves), or FB (Alex Smith gone).
not as egregious as what we didn't do with our secondary, but it's still there as well.
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Defensively, accumulating pass rushers is exactly what they needed.
definitely. though, I think we also could have done a better job at getting a CB2, Safety depth, and an ILB. our secondary depth is scary and there are always a ton of injuries in the secondary.
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Why should this time around be any different in Berea?
hopefully, the young foundation and the coaching staff are enough to offset the areas of weakness. the good thing is that most of the areas of weakness are at positions that aren't considered primary positions. but, they are still obvious to even the fans, so we need people to step up at them.
of course, as mentioned in the article, the main area we need someone to step up at is QB. hopefully, Chud/Norv can get the absolute most out of Weeden and hopefully that will be enough to give our offense life.
#gmstrong
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Nicely done. Normally that would end the Phil conspiracy, but I know better.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
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All Pro
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sorry dawson is on the record last week saying banner wanted everybody over 30 to be shown the door,
The same interview said banner NEVER offered him a contract.
This goes back to banner saying never overpay for a unimportant position,
To translate left tackle is worth 8 million dollars do not pay a cent more than cut them at 30.
linebackers are worth 7 million dont pay a cent more than cut them at 30.
Last edited by jacksondawg; 07/22/13 10:12 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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sorry dawson is on the record last week saying banner wanted everybody over 30 was not going to signed,
Where did he say this?
I'm not saying he didn't, I just haven't seen it anywhere.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Jesus Terry, take some pride in your appearance. That getup is hilarious! 
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Legend
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I wasn't the only one to question the Browns for not attempting to sign Dawson... ESPN.com..Apr 16 Browns' decision at kicker is confusing You might not agree with it, but one can understand if the Cleveland Browns wanted to draft a kicker and go young at that position. Phil Dawson, the longtime kicker of the expansion era Browns, is 38 years old. What's hard to rationalize is the Browns signing veteran kicker Shayne Graham on Monday. Over the past four seasons, Dawson has topped Graham in field-goal percentage, touchback percentage and accuracy on long kicks. The Browns really didn't get much younger. Graham, who is now the front-runner to beat out Brandon Bogotay for the job, is 35 and just three years younger than Dawson. The biggest difference between the two is salary. Graham signed for the veteran minimum of $940,000, which is $1.41 million less than what Dawson got in San Francisco. But money shouldn't be a problem for the Browns, who have more than $25 million in salary-cap room. This isn't a horrible move by the Browns. Graham set a Texans’ scoring record last season with 138 points. He has experience dealing with the weather of the AFC North after seven seasons with the Bengals and a short stint with the Ravens. He is the fifth-most accurate kicker in NFL history. He also has converted 93.4 percent of his career field goals inside 40 yards. But this is a questionable move by the Browns. Cleveland had a Pro Bowl kicker in Dawson. He knew how to succeed at Cleveland Browns Stadium despite the challenges of the lakefront winds, and was nearly automatic over 50 yards the past couple of seasons. It would've cost less to keep him this year than last (the Browns paid Dawson $3.81 million in 2012). And, as I pointed out earlier, it's hard to debate value when a team has more cap room than nearly every other team in the league. So, the Browns go from the one constant they have had since returning to the league to a journeyman. Graham has played for five teams (the New York Giants, New England Patriots, Miami Dolphins, Baltimore Ravens and Houston Texans) since a seven-year run with the Cincinnati Bengals from 2003-09. A kicker who once received the franchise tag from the Bengals, Graham wasn't re-signed in 2010 after missing two field goals in a playoff loss to the Jets, including a 28-yard attempt late in the fourth quarter. Some Bengals fans nicknamed him "Shank" Graham. It was expected that the Browns would undergo change with the new regime headed by chief executive officer Joe Banner. But it's hard to argue that the change at kicker makes a lot of sense. web page
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Jesus Terry, take some pride in your appearance. That getup is hilarious!
It's kinda funny, now that you bring appearance up. My grandfather always used to preach polishing your shoes. He always said a man that doesn't polish his shoes doesn't wash himself well either. did you notice Banners shoes
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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OP
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The same interview said banner NEVER offered him a contract.
That may be true. The fact is we talked with his agent, to get a feel for where things needed to go. Obviously the agent started mentioning numbers way above or beyond what we were willing pay or offer in the way of years.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that Phil wanted a few playoff kicks before he hangs up the spikes??
The problems with Dawson started with Homie and Heck...not Banner. My guess is we franchised him because he wouldn't sign with us...he wanted to go to Houston 3 seasons ago.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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the real reason phil is gone. [image]http://  [/image]
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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You could be right and it's the proofreader and the editor that don't know jack about the Browns.
Well Pluto did actually leave out Warhop, but like I said, he just made an error. I suggest we nail him to a cross.. :LOL:
Nah, that would give him too much legitimacy. I think his end should be the firing squad in the blogosphere.
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