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Alright, fair post.
I think several people from the other board that I was screaming we should trade down long before the draft took place. I did not come up w/that theory after the draft.
I was pimping several first round prospects: Doug Martin was my number one guy, but I guess I need to point out that I wanted him at the bottom of the first or top of the second. I did pimp David DeCastro very hard. Thought he was the best college guard I ever saw. I liked Claiborne and Barron a lot. Riley Reiff was another guy I thought could help us at RT. I liked Luke Keuchley and even Melvin Ingram. I loved Mohamed Sanu. I thought Jerel Worthy might be a decent second day pick. I did a profile on Bobby Massey. I did another on Schwartz, but I thought he would last until late 3rd---early 4th. I thought Kirk Cousins was severely underrated. There were others, but I can't remember everyone off the top of my head.
What's that tell you? Some hits. Some misses. The point is that there were a lot of options. I continually said pre-draft---that it was a great class. Just as I said this one was very poor----before the draft.
I don't think Mingo was a sexy pick. Not sure why you think that?
Concerning TRich. Again, I hope people will back me up on what I said before the draft. I did not want him. I thought he was a good back, but I said that I thought he would have a short shelf life due to his running style and body type. There were some good arguments on the body type thing. I also mentioned Alabama's unreal OL and how Ingram looked pre and post draft. I said that you shouldn't take a RB that high because they were easily found in a plethora of places.
Hey..........I hated what we did in w/those three picks. I was fuming. I have been consistent on that. Now, you--and others--may love those three picks and how we handled that first round. That's fine. I ain't trying to change your mind, but I will express my own particular thoughts on what Heckert did. Hope that's okay w/you????
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Listening to the Banner interview; he sounds like a logical guy.
However, every regime change we have had each talking head comes out and explains how they envision what it takes to produce winning football. "aggressive playing personality" etc. Building through the draft is how you sustain winning etc. etc. You have to have the right coach, check. You have to draft well, check.
They run through the check list of how winning teams win.
Banner would not have made the moves Heckert did.
But here we are now: New everything except for most of the players left behind from previous regimes.
Let's start from square one. You have to have a quarterback. We all hope Weeden fits the new scheme. However, I have serious doubts about Brandon Weeden.
As much as I want to believe in Weeden; I have to "curb my enthusiasm". based upon what I have seen.
I just want to go into a new season with a quarterback who I have confidence in.
A guy who I know can lead a team in the fourth quarter when you have to produce to win.
Still no matter how you slice and dice it the Browns have a question mark at the key position of the team.
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I did a whole live draft thread where I picked players as though I was the GM of the Browns in real time. It was fun and it'll be interesting to compare a couple years from now.
Tannehill, Mercilus and Glenn were my first three picks...can't remember the rest save for Dennard in the 7th.
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....I hope people will back me up on what I said before the draft.
Consider it done. I believe you wanted Martin in the bottom third of the 1st round...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Hehe, I loved Sanu too and didn't want us to draft TRich either. I was all alone against the whole board on DeCastro. I saw an over-hyped RG-only, but even I was surprised that he looked like a beach ball out there.
Here's my mock draft I did before the draft:
#4 CB Claiborne
#22 OT J.Martin
#37 QB Weeden
#52 WR Sanu (traded up for him)
#118 RB C.Gray
#139 FS T.Robinson
c#204 OLB Trevathan
c#205 DT M.Daniels
#211 WR K.Martin
c#245 CB K.Tandy
c#247 DE F:Alexander
I also liked D.Martin and thought he was much better value than TRich. Was a full blown Weeden, Sanu and DE Vinny Curry pimp. Didn't really want to draft OT Martin at 22 as I liked Schwartz a lot, but didn't have the guts to draft him at 22 over Martin, whom I ended up selecting simply because I didn't like the value of other prospects at 22. Also liked WR Broyles, WR TY Hilton and LB Demario Davis.
I agree that the 2012 class was much better and deeper, but I don't like those lables to justfiy the trades BAnner did, at least not the 1st one as there were some top 50/75 guys still available then, among them the prospect the Steelers ended up taking who I really, really loved when I watched him. This trade could come back to haunt Banner as S.Thomas is a Bob Sanders clone and a perfect fit in Pit's aggressive D. It will especially haunt him if he doesn't extend Ward for whatever reason.while Thomas delivers hit after hit as a Steeler. We will see, but there were several players I really liked and had rated higher when we were otc WR Q.Patton, SS S.Thomas, G B.Jones, WR C.Harper...in the 5th there were some higher ranked RBs still available: RB S.Taylor and RB Randle. Sure, holding a 3rd and 4th in 2014 is nice, but if the Steelers make the POs we're talking about 10-15 or so picks improvement, if they fail to reach the postseason then it'll look better but he still has to make them count. He netted some value but he punted the ultimate decision
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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j/c:
Thanks 32.
Held, I liked Mercillus, as well. Glenn, too.
Dj: Sanu was doing pretty good w/Cincci, but the injury ruined his season. He's a big target w/very good hands. I liked K. Martin, too. Versatile guy. He fumbled too much in his rookie year, though.
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I believe it was baltimore.
but I heard it from some friends in sf that were told face to face by dawson give me a day.
I personally think that banner only values kickers to 600,000 per year.
Not all of his interviews say this but he mentions it alot about not over paying for positions that he doesnt value.
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check cleveland.com haslam said no old players period and wouldnt mention if he offered him a contract.
My guess is he couldnt say due to tampering charges
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Quote:
check cleveland.com haslam said no old players period and wouldnt mention if he offered him a contract.
My guess is he couldnt say due to tampering charges
Yet we signed 31 year old Jason Campbell and 35 year old Shayne Graham ....... (and 29 year old Quentin Groves) ......so I doubt that Haslam made any such edict.
I have heard Banner say that he is cautious with older players and contracts to those players. I have never heard anyone with the Browns say "Don't sign older players".
We signed Groves to 1 2 year, $2.8 million deal, Campbell to a 2 year, $3.75 deal, and Graham to a 1 year deal worth just over $1 million. These were all very reasonable deals that would not leave the team hamstrung if the player suddenly gets really, really old.
There's a difference between being cautious with contracts to older players, and saying "NO!".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I believe it was baltimore.
but I heard it from some friends in sf that were told face to face by dawson give me a day.
I personally think that banner only values kickers to 600,000 per year.
Not all of his interviews say this but he mentions it alot about not over paying for positions that he doesnt value.
Well I heard it from my brother's friend's, cousin, next door neighbor who works with the sister of Banner's dry cleaner and they said that Banner offered Dawson $10 million dollars and he said no.
There is a reason you need to post sources, otherwise anyone can make up stuff and post it. Fact is the Browns signed a 35yo kicker to replace Dawson. I don't think age had anything to do with it.
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Quote:
I believe it was baltimore.
but I heard it from some friends in sf that were told face to face by dawson give me a day.
I personally think that banner only values kickers to 600,000 per year.
Not all of his interviews say this but he mentions it alot about not over paying for positions that he doesnt value.
So he didn't say it? You just made it up?
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Quote:
Well I heard it from my brother's friend's, cousin, next door neighbor who works with the sister of Banner's dry cleaner and they said that Banner offered Dawson $10 million dollars and he said no.
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Quote:
I believe it was baltimore.
but I heard it from some friends in sf that were told face to face by dawson give me a day.
I personally think that banner only values kickers to 600,000 per year.
Not all of his interviews say this but he mentions it alot about not over paying for positions that he doesnt value.
I don't agree with you on the kickers at 600k per year. If Dawson was 27 years old and had 7 to 10 more years of his career in front of him, I think Banner would pay more. But at his age, you look at when this team will be ready to compete for something and Dawson will/might/could be out of the league. Do you pay that guy 1.3 Million, Probably not.
I wanted us to keep Dawson, but I can, to a degree, understand not offering him a deal at the numbers he must have wanted at his age. I don't like it, but I get it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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At his age he's still a great kicker. Sign him for 10 years, because this is the NFL, as soon as he gets to the point he looses his ability you can cut him and find someone else.
The only way it could hurt is if he "went bad" mid-season. Even then there's always someone who can kick but doesn't have a contract.
#gmstrong
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I CAN NOT believe fans are still talking about Dawson and haven't basically come to terms with the FACT that Dawson didn't want to be here...
How many times was Dawson franchised again???
Do you all really think that management as inept as it was or is didn't try to sign Dawson, he wanted out period. He could have taken a long term deal and the guaranteed money that comes with it long ago and turned it down every single time...
He wanted out, and is out.............I wish him luck and thank him for his contribution..............The End
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Quote:
At his age he's still a great kicker. Sign him for 10 years, because this is the NFL, as soon as he gets to the point he looses his ability you can cut him and find someone else.
The only way it could hurt is if he "went bad" mid-season. Even then there's always someone who can kick but doesn't have a contract.
If your trying to build a foundation that will last a long long time, I don't think you do that by holding on to players that cost a lotta money and won't be here.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I CAN NOT believe fans are still talking about Dawson and haven't basically come to terms with the FACT that Dawson didn't want to be here...
How many times was Dawson franchised again???
Do you all really think that management as inept as it was or is didn't try to sign Dawson, he wanted out period. He could have taken a long term deal and the guaranteed money that comes with it long ago and turned it down every single time...
He wanted out, and is out.............I wish him luck and thank him for his contribution..............The End
I keep hearing he didn't want to be here,, nobody can prove that's the case. It's raw speculation based on circumstance. Means nothing.
Of all the interviews I've seen him give and/or read, I don't remember him ever giving any indication that he didn't want to be here.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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2+2=4 He was offered deals why would you want to pay top dollar on a 1 year franchise tag deal when you can get a multi year deal (if your Dawson) with guaranteed money.. You clearly haven't thought this thru who in their right mind honestly wouldn't have tried to get Dawson under contract, who??
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Quote:
2+2=4 He was offered deals why would you want to pay top dollar on a 1 year franchise tag deal when you can get a multi year deal (if your Dawson) with guaranteed money.. You clearly haven't thought this thru who in their right mind honestly wouldn't have tried to get Dawson under contract, who??
What deals was he offered? do you know what he wanted? was it money or length of contract?
You are telling me I haven't thought it out, yet you don't know the answers to any of those questions. Exactly who hasn't thought it out again?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The last 2,3 regimes?  FWIW, I think you're right. Multiple regimes couldn't get it done with Dawson, the talk about doing right for his family and earning the right to play for whoever he wanted seem clear to me. We'll never get the full story because Dawson is too much of a pro to go back and rehash these stories to a reporter. The guy is all class, and I don't think he'd come out and say that he wanted out. San Fran is a contender, Seeley is there, the city is awesome... seems like an attractive destination to me.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I know its cool to beat up on Mac...but how did this come to a Phil Dawson thread???
Just letting you know I am pretty sure a lot of those quotes were during negotiation time.
He rented after he sold his house (just guessing).
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
but how did this come to a Phil Dawson thread???
mac. he makes every thread a dawson thread.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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I know, its the only thought of mistake by Banner and his reluctant decisions to resign aging players.
Sometimes you just got to ignore it. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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JC
I gotta say, I am liking these Banner press conferences/interviews. He speaks pretty truthfully on details that he can reveal, adn doesn't seem to cherry coat those he cannot reveal.
Thus far I am digging everything that has unfolded. Norv, Horton are excellent additions. Chud is more offensive and that offense needs all the help it can get. The free agent market decisions. The draft we'll see of course, but I totally digging the deal they were able to literally and IMO, STEAL, from the Dolphins to get Bess here. I can smell a little more energy in the air with this regime than I did when Pat and Walrus and company were brought in. Heckert has gave us some good picks to build upon and it appears that Banner and co. are doing just that. I wasn't a fan of the Lombardi deal, but they keep him hidden from the media like the plague. In addition, it's beyond evident Lombardi doesn't wear the big boy pants, I'd be very curious what his actual influence is? Anyway, it's like he isn't even here!
We'll see if construction and etc starts on all these new stadium modifications and enhancements. Can't wait to hear what's all in the works! Can't wait to see some training camp footage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You clearly haven't thought this thru who in their right mind honestly wouldn't have tried to get Dawson under contract, who??
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Quote:
You clearly haven't thought this thru who in their right mind honestly wouldn't have tried to get Dawson under contract, who??
Seems like an odd question.
From what we have heard, this FO contacted Phils agent and then never made an offer.
Why they never made an offer is a subject for debate. I don't know the answer but it could have been the money Phil wanted, the length of contract he wanted or that he didn't want to be here.
There's no one answer that can be stated with any certainty.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I think sometimes people think re-signing a guy is like it is in Madden or something.
I don't know what happened, I don't claim to know what happened, but if I had to guess, I'd say we talked with Phil's agent who said something along the lines of 'we're looking for top-kicker money on a long-term deal. If not, we're looking at a winner in nice weather'. We said 'thanks, but no thanks' and moved on.
If it were up to me, I'd have overpaid the guy to keep him here. But that's because I'm thinking with my heart.
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At some point you have to do your own addition. Dawson was tagged what 2 times? Not sure but it stands to reason that if you franchise tag a player #1 you couldn't reach an agreement, but that you would be working in that direction in the future. Then he got tagged again and again no deal, it's not because they didn't want him... You don't tag a player you don't want after all.
And how cheep are you truly being when you franchise tag a player??? In fact your grossly overpaying when you tag IMO.
When you sit down and analyze this entire thing it becomes pretty clear some kind of deal was offered on more then 2 occasions and for whatever reason Dawson walked away and kept walking away..
No me crazy me I know I have the most or one of the most reliable kickers in the league on my squad what is it that could possibly inspire me to NOT want to get a deal done???? I don't care if he is 50, that argument doesn't fly for a kicker and certainly not with a kicker of Dawson's ability, he wanted out almost at any cost........
2+2
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Quote:
You clearly haven't thought this thru who in their right mind honestly wouldn't have tried to get Dawson under contract, who??
I haven't thought it out? Ok,, you seem to have, you show me one story that says that Dawson wanted out.. Something that confirms it and isn't some media maniac spouting his opinion. Something with teeth in it. Something where he was quoted as saying it..
Until you can do that, it's you that hasn't thought it out.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lombardi is part of the team, not "the man". He is one voice, and the one who does a lot of the research behind players. It's a role he should excel in.
I agree with you about Banner. He's been very straightforward thus far .... at least as much as he can be. He has laid out his vision for the team in no uncertain terms. Anyone should be able to tell whether the plan is on track, or not, because he's all but laid things out step by step.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Phil made it pretty clear the last few years that he wanted out. He wasn't banging on the door or anything, and I doubt he cried when we slapped tags on him. He was probably pretty open to the idea of a lucrative long-term deal. But the writing was on the wall.
Most people have moved on. The only reason it's still a big issue is because mac likes to paint it as if Banner was being classless by not offering Phil a contract.
The opposite is true. The worst thing from the P.R. perspective of Phil Dawson is having to turn down an offer, and then leave. How would it look if we offered him more money than San Fran, but he turned us down anyway? No one would paint him like a villain, but the guy wanted to be classy about it. We talked with his agent, and it didn't work out.
It was a pretty classy exit all the way around. I wished we'd have inked him. But it didn't happen. People need to move on.
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I agree. Not getting past casual conversatins with his agent about numbers allows Phil to come back for his Ring of Honor induction in 9-10 years.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Phil made it pretty clear the last few years that he wanted out. He wasn't banging on the door or anything, and I doubt he cried when we slapped tags on him. He was probably pretty open to the idea of a lucrative long-term deal. But the writing was on the wall.
Most people have moved on. The only reason it's still a big issue is because mac likes to paint it as if Banner was being classless by not offering Phil a contract.
The opposite is true. The worst thing from the P.R. perspective of Phil Dawson is having to turn down an offer, and then leave. How would it look if we offered him more money than San Fran, but he turned us down anyway? No one would paint him like a villain, but the guy wanted to be classy about it. We talked with his agent, and it didn't work out.
It was a pretty classy exit all the way around. I wished we'd have inked him. But it didn't happen. People need to move on.
Hey, I have moved on, I just don't get how anyone can be so sure he wanted out? it's all guess work but some think it's fact.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If you want some cold hard facts before you make your judgment, you'll probably never make one.
The guy very politely said goodbye a few times before it actually happened. He was planning on leaving long before he did. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.
I'm not saying we couldn't have locked him in for the rest of his career with a healthy offer sheet, but Cleveland was in the rear view for the guy some time ago.
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Well documented and noted he was in dire need of getting close to his family. Google Map Seattle (where I believe his family lives) to San Fran - it's a good decision for him and also he got to go to a good team.
He's said his good bye along time ago and has exited blue collar. Team could have thrown all the money at him and likely not have been able to obtain him. Priorities are priorities and sometimes it's not about the $, team or maybe even to an extent - the game... he's human and a family man with kids that growing up rapidly.
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The guy's still saying 'Go Browns' in his 'Welcome to San Fransisco, New Kicker!' puff pieces.
All class.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,058
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19,058 |
I thought his family is in Austin, TX.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 |
Quote:
I haven't thought it out? Ok,, you seem to have, you show me one story that says that Dawson wanted out
You shouldn't need a story to tell you something that is obvious man. I mean the writing is all over the wall..
We as fans ASSUME that a player like Dawson WANTS to be here, because that is what WE would want but again obviously that's not what Dawson wanted and he stuck with it for three years until he got what he wanted which was gone from Browns town.....
This is really going to kick up the dirt but I think the way Mangini was fired and his coaches soured Dawson on the Browns and their fans for good.. Prior to that event Dawson was all in for retiring a Brown...
But that's a story for another day.. Come on man your smart enough I think what reason would there be NOT to want to re-sign Dawson??????
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
Quote:
This is really going to kick up the dirt but I think the way Mangini was fired ....
You're probably right, but that is for another thread...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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