DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland's QB Quagmire

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Note: I re-read this a couple times and pulled out my Frye bias and laid out the facts.


There has been a lot of talk on here about QB's and a lot of fun poked at yours truly. So I decided, why not write an article and see if Dune will put it up on the front page?

When bringing up the subject of QB, let’s take a look at our past. In 1999 we made Tim Couch our first overall pick. He was our starter from 1999-2002. Then somebody ate some bad sushi and decided to start Kelly Holcomb for 2003. In 2004 the bad sushi was chased with sour milk and 3-time pro-bowler Jeff Garcia was our starter. The team eventually gave up and the sushi and milk cost Butch Davis his job. In 2005 we saw super bowl winner Trent Dilfer come in and start and finally in 2006 3rd round QB Charlie Frye was the starter. What was the one constant since 1999? Ignoring the importance of the offensive line.

We know for any team to have a fighting chance on offense they need a solid offensive line. We’ve seen who our past QB’s are, now let’s look at the lines they were drafted to play behind.

1999 - 1 lineman drafted – James Dearth a 6th round long snapper

2000 – 2 lineman drafted – Brad Bedell, 6th round tackle and Manuia Savea, 7th round guard

2001 – 1 lineman drafted - Paul Zukauskis, 7th round guard

2002 – 2 lineman drafted – Melvin Fowler, 3rd round center and Joaquin Gonzalez, 7th round tackle

2003 – 2 linemen drafted – Jeff Faine, 1st round center and Ryan Pontbriand, 5th round long snapper.

2004 – 1 lineman drafted – Kirk Chambers, 6th round tackle

2005 – 1 lineman drafted - Jonathon Dunn, 7th round tackle

2006 – 1 lineman drafted - Isaac Sowells, 4th round guard

Taking out the special teams long snappers, in our 8 years back, we’ve drafted 9 offensive linemen, two in the first 3 rounds altogether. Your 1st and 2nd round guys are to be starters and 3rd round guys are major role players and can become starters. Using simple math we can deduce that the offensive line approximately makes up 23% of your starters. In 8 drafts we’ve spent 2 picks, both on centers, to become starters on our line. Twenty-four possible picks, two to become starters. We have used 8% of those picks on the line, which makes up 23% of your starters. We should have used at least 6 picks in the first 3 rounds on offensive lineman in the first 3 rounds over the past 8 years.

Depending on the defense (3-4 or 4-3) the lines make up approximately 40% of your starting 22. Instead we’ve picked 7 WR's, 2 DL, 2 QB’s, 4 LB's, 5 DB's, and 3 RB's. What’s the weakest part of our team? The offensive line and defensive line. Where have we drafted the least amount of impact players? The offensive line and defensive line. 17% to fill 40%, that’s not going to bode well for the foundation of your team. I’m not going to dwell on the d-line in this piece. Instead I want to focus on the offensive side of the ball.

The biggest piece of your offense is the line, after all, it’s 5 of your 11 guys on the field. Quite obviously, it makes it the most important part of the offense. The one thing every super bowl champion has is an above average to stellar offensive line. We have already deduced, to great length, that this team has completely ignored the o-line in the draft. The past 2 years the line just started getting addressed, of course, 1 of those guys has seen the field and that’s Kevin Shaffer. We all know this line has been garbage since 1999. We have gone through a 1st overall pick, a career back-up, a 3 time pro-bowler, a 4th rounder, WR’s, a super bowl winner and now a 3rd rounder. Quite frankly it’s making me sick.

Has Frye played great? By all means, no, he hasn’t. Has he made many mistakes? Yes, he has. Has he turned the ball over a ton? Yes, he has. So why do I defend him? The 3 time pro-bowler had 12 TD's (2 rush) and 15 turnovers (6 lost fumbles). The super bowl winner had 11 TD’s and 19 turnovers (7 lost fumbles), last year. Frye had 13 TD’s (3 rush) and 24 turnovers. Garcia played in 3 fewer games than Frye, Dilfer played in 2 fewer games than Frye. Notice how their fumbles are completely in line with each other? I guess Dilfer and Garcia have small hands too? It’s amazing how all our QB’s have small hands.

Frye had a rating of 72, Dilfer and Garcia each 76, Tim Couch's career rating is 75 and Kelly Holcomb's in his year of starting posted a rating of 74. Sure doesn’t look like that much of a difference now does it? I have just shown you 5 QB’s starting for this team all with similar numbers. Their only common attribute is a poor offensive line and no running game. By the way Garcia last year with Philly, surrounded by a team, posted a rating of 95 (lost only 2 fumbles in 8 games as opposed to 6 in 11). Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the QB isn’t the problem with this team?

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Frye had a rating of 72, Dilfer and Garcia each 76, Tim Couch's career rating is 75 and Kelly Holcomb's in his year of starting posted a rating of 74.

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There isn't a person around here that doesn't understand the line is the most important aspect of an offense

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How do you read the board with half the posters on ignore

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Frye had a rating of 72, Dilfer and Garcia each 76, Tim Couch's career rating is 75 and Kelly Holcomb's in his year of starting posted a rating of 74.

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While I agree w/your theory, this quote reeks of bias. Why did you only put Holcomb's rating for a single year, while the others were for their entire careers w/the Browns?

Something tells me that KHs rating was either quite a bit higher or quite a bit lower than that number.

soup.......stats are cool, but you really should not manipulate them to prove points. It tends to make you lose credibility w/the more intelligent posters.

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Until you see them perform series BY series..and know how and when those mistakes come.

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Attack,, I'm not sure what they are called, but do you have one of those machines the pros use to break down plays.. you know,, using game films where you can see the whole field and what everyone is doing?

Then of course you need access to the play book so that you can break it down and be able to see if a receiver, for instance, was where he was supposed to be and compare that to where he actually was...

Do you have one of those and access to game films? cause if you do and you haven't invited us over to watch, you are gonna get a spankin.....

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Even when DA got on the field, you just sensed something differant..

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I've always been afraid of Frye, yet the organization went after him. Now the organization is making moves that show they are no longer enamoured with Chuck.

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So are they correcting the mistake they made on draft day, or are they making a mistake by not sticking with him?

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It's neither, and the fans who tend to think in terms of black and white can't see it.

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I've shown you what "proven QBs" did behind our line. It's in plain black and white - but you choose to ignore it. Go ahead though, keep changing the starting QB, it's worked the past 8 years... Keep your eyes open - new post coming with a new article - will be up shortly - don't answer me in this thread - this article will explain more about the constant changes. Answer me in there.

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Now all the bias finally comes out

You don't even know what I said. Hell, twice in the past two days you quoted the wrong posters while flaming the Hell out of'em

I won't go back and requote myself for your benefit. You don't even know what I said so debating warp theory with you while you're feverishly pointing at oatmeal is an act of futility.

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Just for the record, Holcomb's career rating is 79.9, according to his NFL.com player page. As far as the "fixing the OL" vs "addressing the QB position" debate, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time - do both. If the debate is Thomas vs Quinn or Russell, I agree with whomever said that Thomas is the least risky pick and also dovetails with our biggest need ... BPA = Need in this case, IMO.

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And don't say Trent Green,he will be gone in two years

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Trent Green.

A whole lot can happen in 2 years too, including even Charlie Frye becoming an NFL caliber QB. It could happen. He might develope. It might not happen. There will be 2 more years of free agents QB's and 2 more years of possible draftee QB's. Trent Green buys you time and he is better than what we have now by plenty.

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I keep harping on this point, I just don't see how the QB situation can be fixed at the same time as the OL is fixed.

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If we draft Joe Thomas and trade for Green, it's fixed.

Now you can choose to say that Green doesn't count because he's going to be 36.

Jeff Garcia just turned 36. Any guess what he did last year?

People (including me) wrote Brad Johnson off several times. He kept coming back and posting big years.

To be perfectly blunt about it, Green is 35 going on about 32 or 33. Remember, he never started a game in the NFL until he was 28 years old.

TWENTY-EIGHT. I think Green probably has at least two or three good years as a starter left in him. To say that we haven't fixed our QB position just because we don't have a guy who COULD be there for ten years is blowing off the present while staring at the future.

Really, we could fix BOTH the O-line as well as QB in one draft. I think we're ok right now at every position but left tackle, as people don't know much about McKinney. If his neck is ok, he's a pretty solid interior player. If we draft a guard in the 2nd or 3rd, he could be starting as a rookie. Then there's Thomas

So it's possible. Very possible. Besides, if getting Green means allowing Frye to sit and learn, that could solve our QB situation for the next....oh.....I dunno.....ten years or so.

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Besides, if getting Green means allowing Frye to sit and learn, that could solve our QB situation for the next....oh.....I dunno.....ten years or so.

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