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We jail more of our population than any country on the planet, and it's not even close.
Less than 10% of federal prisoners are there for violent offenses. Most of them are drug offenders. After that, it's immigration and weapons charges.
They are overwhelmingly poor and minority.
Drugs have only gotten stronger and more readily available.
If you are convicted of a felony, you lose your right to vote, own a firearm, and best of luck to you with employment and housing.
The prison industrial complex is being rapidly taken over by the private sector.
Does anyone not see this as the premise for a futuristic dystopia on the brink?
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Legalize drugs...it's that simple.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Scale back drug laws, enact more capital punishment and bring back the chain gangs. That's how I would fix the problem.
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Why do I get the feeling you're the Producer for "Elysium"? 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Its a product of our electoral system. People will say whatever it takes to get elected and nobody gets elected by being "soft on crime". I can't count the number of cases that I was involved in when I was in the courts that didn't deserve 1/3 of the punishment that they were given, only because there was some crumb of public interest in it and a judge or prosecutor wanted to be re-elected. It works for legislators as well and policies like three strikes, mandated punishments, etc. It is honestly one of the major reasons that I left the criminal justice system.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Legend
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They need to legalize the most basic common drugs, and then make possession legal, and only distribution/sale illegal for the remainder.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Tons of other countries have incredibly strict laws on drugs, too. Simple possession in lots of pacific rim nations can get you big jail time in very unpleasant prisons.
Even Mexico has drugs laws.
What makes us different? It clearly isn't the existence of drugs laws.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
"My signature line goes here."
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Quote:
Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
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Quote:
Tons of other countries have incredibly strict laws on drugs, too. Simple possession in lots of pacific rim nations can get you big jail time in very unpleasant prisons.
Even Mexico has drugs laws.
What makes us different? It clearly isn't the existence of drugs laws.
They also have a lot of crooked cops and poor enforcement. And as you said, their prisons are not HOJOs like many of ours, which is probably a biggest deterrent.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
Well, there's that.
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Privately owned prisons are a huge cash cow. I don't see a fix for that problem and the incentive to keep, non violet criminals in jail. They are easy to manage and you get the same amount of money from the government.
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Legend
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Quote:
Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
It's amazing how many people don't get that. Don't break the law, and you don't face a prison sentence.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
What's the alternative?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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j/c
Never used drugs and don't drink much anymore but i would like to see them legalize weed and give stiffer sentences for selling or transporting the harder drugs especially for large amounts. Also would like to see them get stiffer on people with multiple DUIs and people who kill others in accidents due to being drunk. I've read and heard of people with 5+ DUI's basically getting a slap on the wrist and people who were way over the limit killing others in an accident and coming away with just a couple of years in jail.
#gmstrong
Live, Love, Laugh
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Legend
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Quote:
Legalize drugs...it's that simple.
Drugs are bad.. uhkay....
yebat' Putin
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What's the alternative?
Legalize drugs. Just because it's currently illegal doesn't mean it should be. We could pass a law that says you go to prison if you walk down the left side of a sidewalk, and then YTown and I Rogue would respond, "Don't walk down the left side of the sidewalk = don't go to prison, that simple." Doesn't make much sense, does it?
Last edited by Mantis; 08/01/13 11:35 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
What's the alternative?
Legalize drugs. Just because it's currently illegal doesn't mean it should be.
I don't believe that is even remotely a reasonable alternative.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Does anyone not see this as the premise for a futuristic dystopia on the brink?
No, it's a current dystopia... which could of course, get worse.
I wouldn't have a problem with taking the legalization route... but then I have to wonder if the welfare state, unemployment, homelessness, domestic violence wouldn't go up enough to counteract any benefit from the reduced burden on the prison system.
It's a complex problem. I have never been one to try to fix a problem by making the problem itself acceptable and thereby allowing me to ignore it.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
It's amazing how many people don't get that. Don't break the law, and you don't face a prison sentence.
Problem isn't that people are breaking the law, problem is those of us on the outside the have to pay for these people. I rather see some guy get busted with weed pay a few fines do a little community service work and be done with it, rather than spend 3-5 years in jail on my dime.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
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What's the alternative?
Legalize drugs. Just because it's currently illegal doesn't mean it should be.
I don't believe that is even remotely a reasonable alternative.
Then there is no alternative, and we better get used to imprisoning more of our citizens than any other nation on Earth. But maybe that was the point of your question?
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The biggest hurdle to legalizing drugs is convincing the voters that legalizing does not mean condoning.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
It's amazing how many people don't get that. Don't break the law, and you don't face a prison sentence.
Implying all laws are just and appropriate?
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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What's the alternative?
Legalize drugs. Just because it's currently illegal doesn't mean it should be.
I don't believe that is even remotely a reasonable alternative.
Then there is no alternative, and we better get used to imprisoning more of our citizens than any other nation on Earth. But maybe that was the point of your question?
Well, there is that, or we could (as someone said) return to the days of the chain gangs.
Use them to clean the streets and highways. Use them to pick crops for farmers that otherwise have to hire migrant workers that are generally illegals. I can see a great future in something like that.
it's not cruel or unusual punishment, it's work? the State of Ohio and the cities in the state pay for that any way, so why not use them as labor.
I'm not talking about letting a guy like Ariel Castro who did what he did get out of jail for even a second. I'm talking about the kid that's in jail because he or she got caught smoking some dope or selling dope.
I mean, what the heck, they used to call it the work house, somehow the word "work" got taken out of it mix. not sure how or when that happened.
How about Labor for industry. You know, the jobs that nobody wants maybe?
I do believe that alternatives exist. But you gotta think outside the box.
No, that doesn't solve prison over crowding, but it may help ease the cost burdens.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
People decide whether or not to obey the law. That has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. It has to do with being a law abiding person, or being someone who breaks the law.
I understand that some people feel that this type of law shouldn't apply to them ..... just like some people feel that they should be able to drive whatever speed they want, regardless of the posted speed limit. However, if we have laws, then they should be enforced. (cue the symphony of posts with obscure laws that are no longer enforced throughout the country)
The simple fact is that if a strong majority of people felt that drugs should be legalized, and they felt strongly enough about it, then it would happen. However, it has not happened. What has happened is that minor violators of low end drug possession have been allowed a pass. Those selling drugs are sent to jail, as it should be. Beyond the legal aspects, stuff these guys sell could have anything in it.
If we legalize marijuana, does anyone think that street level dealers will be legally permitted to sell it? It will be regulated, and regulated, and sold in authorized locations only to people over a certain age, much as liquor is. What will those street level drug dealers do then? Quit and become law abiding citizens? Probably not. I bet we would see a larger influx of harder drugs, like cocaine, heroin, and so on in their place. Those drug dealers are going to need something to replace the money they currently make from selling pot. Seriously, does anyone think that people selling drugs on the street will say "Well, drugs are legal now, so I'm going to go get a job at McDonalds."? Other drugs and other illegal activities would take the place of pot in a large number of cases. I would bet money on that.
Honestly, the only argument I can see made in favor of legalization is increasing tax revenues by taxing pot sales. It would be a highly regulated industry, and sold only as alcohol and cigarettes are currently sold. I don't buy the argument that we would suddenly see drug dealers suddenly become law abiding citizens though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't think harder sentences will do anything. People don't consider the abstract, potential punishment when they decide to do something illegal. The immediate pleasure wins every time. What really keeps people from doing unethical things is virtue. Do you think possessing drugs is unethical? Not illegal... unethical. I don't. So virtue doesn't apply. Anyone who is really interested in curbing sale/possession of drugs has to inculcate the belief that selling and possessing drugs is unethical, and public policy has never in the history of the world convinced anyone that a behavior is unethical.
Last edited by Mantis; 08/01/13 11:58 AM.
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is legalizing drugs going to stop them from doing this to people? http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htmDrugs are illegal for several reasons. They are harmful to the user. They can be addictive and can prevent people from being able to be productive, causing them to use whatever means necessary (read: illegal and dangerous) to procure more drugs. The actions of people on drugs can be a danger to public health and safety. Honestly I think this whole "legalize it" movement is part of the entitlement culture.
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I didn't think of it in terms of harder sentences.. I thought of it as a way to mitigate some of the costs of imprisonment.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
is legalizing drugs going to stop them from doing this to people?
http://www.facesofmeth.us/main.htm
Drugs are illegal for several reasons.
They are harmful to the user.
They can be addictive and can prevent people from being able to be productive, causing them to use whatever means necessary (read: illegal and dangerous) to procure more drugs.
The actions of people on drugs can be a danger to public health and safety.
Honestly I think this whole "legalize it" movement is part of the entitlement culture.
-Cigarettes are harmful to the user, but legal.
-Alcohol can be addictive and can prevent people from being productive, but it's legal.
-The actions of a drunk person can be a danger to public health and safety, but alcohol is legal.
I hate entitlement, despise it. But, your argument doesn't stand up.
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Quote:
Quote:
Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
What's the alternative?
I'm by no means an expert, but I would think- rather than all out legalization- a significant decriminalization of drugs, coupled with stronger rehab programs would fix a lot more of the problem than the current system of, "Lock 'em up and throw away the key at the taxpayers' expense."
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Quote:
Quote:
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Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
What's the alternative?
I'm by no means an expert, but I would think- rather than all out legalization- a significant decriminalization of drugs, coupled with stronger rehab programs would fix a lot more of the problem than the current system of, "Lock 'em up and throw away the key at the taxpayers' expense."
How many people in prison are users, and how many are dealers?
How many are in prison because they broke other laws as a consequence of their drug use?
Will legalization lessen the number of people who operate outside of whatever the new set of drug laws would be?
Will those who currently deal pot turn over a new leaf and become law abiding citizens once it is no longer illegal to use pot?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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just to use your post as a jumping off point. not directed at you. Quote:
-Cigarettes are harmful to the user, but legal.
and, in most places, it is considered rude (or not allowed) to even smoke them anymore. in alot of cities, it is downright difficult to find a place to smoke them.
isn't it strange that smoking cigarrettes (legal) currently has a bigger stigma attached to it then smoking weed (illegal)?
Quote:
-Alcohol can be addictive and can prevent people from being productive, but it's legal.
-The actions of a drunk person can be a danger to public health and safety, but alcohol is legal
And, we continue to crack down on alcohol abuse/consumption. It is still an issue, but the movement there is still becoming more stringent (see states trying to lower the BAC levels, increase penalties for DUI, sport leagues cracking down on tailgating & public drunkenness in the stadium/ballpark, et cetera).
All the while there is a growing movement to legalize many of the illegal drugs.
==========================
and, all of this still doesn't get at one of the growing issues in our country. the legal drugs by prescription that are being used illegally for recreational purposes.
there is not an easy fix here.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
just to use your post as a jumping off point. not directed at you.
Quote:
-Cigarettes are harmful to the user, but legal.
and, in most places, it is considered rude (or not allowed) to even smoke them anymore. in alot of cities, it is downright difficult to find a place to smoke them.
isn't it strange that smoking cigarrettes (legal) currently has a bigger stigma attached to it then smoking weed (illegal)?
Quote:
-Alcohol can be addictive and can prevent people from being productive, but it's legal.
-The actions of a drunk person can be a danger to public health and safety, but alcohol is legal
And, we continue to crack down on alcohol abuse/consumption. It is still an issue, but the movement there is still becoming more stringent (see states trying to lower the BAC levels, increase penalties for DUI, sport leagues cracking down on tailgating & public drunkenness in the stadium/ballpark, et cetera).
All the while there is a growing movement to legalize many of the illegal drugs.
==========================
and, all of this still doesn't get at one of the growing issues in our country. the legal drugs by prescription that are being used illegally for recreational purposes.
there is not an easy fix here.
They're still legal, it doesn't matter if some people look down on users of them or if laws are more strict than 10 years ago. There would still be plenty of people who would look down on marijuana users even if it was legal. The fact is, we already have drugs that are more harmful than marijuana that are legal and widely accepted among society. We can't really say to keep marijuana illegal just because it has some potentially harmful effects, many of which are the same as other drugs which are legal. That's just inconsistent and no basis for an argument against marijuana.
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Quote:
They're still legal, it doesn't matter if some people look down on users of them or if laws are more strict than 10 years ago.
the societal perceptions of today become the laws of tomorrow. so, yes it does matter.
#gmstrong
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They're still legal, it doesn't matter if some people look down on users of them or if laws are more strict than 10 years ago.
the societal perceptions of today become the laws of tomorrow. so, yes it does matter.
In a few cases, yes. But, there is way too much money involved with tobacco and alcohol to ever ban them, no matter what the public perception is of them. Of course, we all know the ban on alcohol didn't work or last long during prohibition. Plus, I don't think society is going to wildly change its perception on tobacco or alcohol or in the future.
My point still stands that there are equally or more dangerous drugs than marijuana which are legal, so we can't use its advers effects as reasons to not legalize it.
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~ Legend
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Which is completely dismissing the bigger question- one you would think a fiscal conservative would be all over- is that a good use of money?
If we legalize marijuana, does anyone think that street level dealers will be legally permitted to sell it? It will be regulated, and regulated, and sold in authorized locations only to people over a certain age, much as liquor is. What will those street level drug dealers do then? Quit and become law abiding citizens? Probably not. I bet we would see a larger influx of harder drugs, like cocaine, heroin, and so on in their place. Those drug dealers are going to need something to replace the money they currently make from selling pot. Seriously, does anyone think that people selling drugs on the street will say "Well, drugs are legal now, so I'm going to go get a job at McDonalds."? Other drugs and other illegal activities would take the place of pot in a large number of cases. I would bet money on that.
While we don't know what they would do, the rates of crime, homicide, and alcohol use plummeted after prohibition. What makes you think our current situation is any different than prohibition?
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Quote:
Quote:
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Don't do drugs; don't sell drugs = stay out of prison for drugs.
It's amazing how many people don't get that. Don't break the law, and you don't face a prison sentence.
Implying all laws are just and appropriate?
If a law is illegal or unjust there are really two ways to combat that.. one is to live with it while you fight to get it changed... and the other is participate in some act of civil disobedience in order to make a public statement...
Buying drugs in secret from a dealer and then running off to seclusion to do the drugs doesn't really qualify as either of those...
yebat' Putin
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~ Legend
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That's cool and all, but that's not the only thing they've been doing.
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