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Quote:
He was in the shotgun more than 95% of his snaps in college. Traditionally, the Chargers ran higher-than-league-average shotgun percentage under Turner. Shurmur's O here was in the bottom 4 of shotgun utilization. Weeden has said there is a lot more shotgun, and that he is more comfortable in the shotgun.
I have a question for you. Do you think that this change will fix Weeden's ability to read coverages post snap? His ability to read defenses pre-snap? His accuracy? His pocket presence? His decision making?
I will listen to your answers. I hope you make a good argument.
I will tell you that going in............I think that Weeden is better suited to this offense than the WCO. We all agree w/that. I just think that almost everyone is overrating how much he will improve because of the schematic change.
Tell me how those issues that he struggled w/terribly last year will improve so much because he is going to be playing in Norv's system. See, I get that throwing down the field more will help him. I get that he will see the field better from the shotgun. I get that Shurmur hurt him w/all the talk about picks. I get that the WCO was very complicated. I do get all that.
What I don't get is how the hell is this going to help him read defenses and coverages and throw more accurately? Educate me.
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An unscientific argument would be that if he feels more comfortable with everything else, he can focus more on the defense. I think it's a pretty easy statement to make that he spent too much time worrying about our offense (the playing under center/footwork, too much pressure to not throw an interception, waiting for the play call to come in, the idiocy of the offense in general, etc).
While you're right about the influence of Norv and his system being exaggerated in helping Weeden improve as a player; how many times have we heard of players playing better the less they have to think? Nobody on the offense last year (especially Weeden) got to that point.
Basically, all I'm saying is that when/if Weeden ever gets to the point where he doesn't have to think about the offense or his throws/mechanics/footwork, then he'll be able to really think about the defense in front of him.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Quote:
I have a question for you. Do you think that this change will fix Weeden's ability to read coverages post snap? His ability to read defenses pre-snap? His accuracy? His pocket presence? His decision making?
Here are my thoughts: PART of the problem was how late the plays were getting in last year. The offense struggled to get to the line and get the play off. This coaching staff will get the plays in more efficiently allowing the O to get to the LOS with some time on the play clock.
Now instead of having to make a snap read Weeds has a chance to look over the defense. I think that this will help with his pre snap reads which in turn will help his post snap reads and decision making.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Thanks for answering guys. I too think the new offense will help. I just think people are over doing it w/the change of offenses.
With that said, he looked good tonight and the Browns looked very sharp on offense.
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With that said, he looked good tonight and the Browns looked very sharp on offense.
I sure sounds good to hear that. It's been too long.......
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Is it your opinion that the areas you think Weeden is weak at that he can't improve in those areas?
How many guys struggle their first year with reading defenses and coverage? How many end up getting it?
Is it that you're either smart or your not?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I think you can improve quite a bit at reading defenses. Guys watch a lot of tape. They see formations. They study down and distances. They study tendencies. They get better over time and guys who study hard can improve tremendously.
Reading coverages is much tougher. For guys like you and me, all we would see is a blur. NFL QBs see things more clearly. Some don't see it as clearly as others. They get confused. You really don't teach reading coverages. Yes, you can talk about looks, disguises, etc, but man, it happens so fast. I really think you have it or you don't. It's a God given gift.
With that said..........I am not positive he can't read coverages. I am not in the film room. I don't know any players or coaches. I am just going by how long he took to throw the ball, how he missed seeing open receivers, his penchant to check down, his ill advised throws into coverage, etc.
Who knows, maybe a lot of it was on Shurmur and the pick thing. Maybe some of it was rookie nerves. I kinda doubt it, but it's a possibility.
One more thing to consider. Spread QBs don't read coverages in college. They have one read for the most part. They all take some time to develop. Newton burst onto the scene, but he regressed a bit last year. Even Drew Brees took some time to develop and he is very intelligent.
Weeden has a chance. It stinks that he is older, though. I'm not saying it is impossible. I just have my doubts. That's all.
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Weeden is being put in the gun often and that raises his comfort level. I also feel a year of experience of facing NFL defenses is a huge plus. Facing Hortons complicated defensive philosophy is a bonus. Vastly superior footwork is a bonus. No longer patting the ball and telegraphing his throws is going to be a tremendous help. Improved hands with Bess and confidence in Little will help. Having Norv turner teaching you how to break down games and how to study film is tremendous but most importantly is having Chud support you.
There are a ton of things going Weeden's way right now an d then you throw in what should be a healthy Trich and a top 5 OL with a defense that should create turnovers and give this O some manageable distances to work with.
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Quote:
Quote:
He was in the shotgun more than 95% of his snaps in college. Traditionally, the Chargers ran higher-than-league-average shotgun percentage under Turner. Shurmur's O here was in the bottom 4 of shotgun utilization. Weeden has said there is a lot more shotgun, and that he is more comfortable in the shotgun.
I have a question for you. Do you think that this change will fix Weeden's ability to read coverages post snap? His ability to read defenses pre-snap? His accuracy? His pocket presence? His decision making?
I will listen to your answers. I hope you make a good argument.
I will tell you that going in............I think that Weeden is better suited to this offense than the WCO. We all agree w/that. I just think that almost everyone is overrating how much he will improve because of the schematic change.
Tell me how those issues that he struggled w/terribly last year will improve so much because he is going to be playing in Norv's system. See, I get that throwing down the field more will help him. I get that he will see the field better from the shotgun. I get that Shurmur hurt him w/all the talk about picks. I get that the WCO was very complicated. I do get all that.
What I don't get is how the hell is this going to help him read defenses and coverages and throw more accurately? Educate me.
Hey, Just FYI I wasn't ignoring your post, I just haven't been on.
First, from the setup of your question I think you may believe I am in what you refer to as Weeden's "camp." I am no more in his camp than I am any other Browns player. I thought it was an awful selection at the time it was made specifically because of the fit with Shurmur's WCO. In fact, Weeden wasn't even in my Top 150 prospects (which I posted here) for the Browns going into the 2012 draft because he was an awful fit.
Now, to respond with my opinion to your questions: I do think that being in the shotgun more should improve (I don't like the word choice with "fix"... I don't think it's a binary proposition) Weeden's ability to read the defense, to be comfortable in the pocket, and to make decisions. The reason I think this is that he's not spending time and concentration on things he's not comfortable with: dropping back, turning his back to the defense on PA, etc. Also, the simple fact that he's got another year experience should improve those facets of his game as well.
Before the draft, I referred to Weeden as a JUGGS machine... a guy who wants to stand in a fixed position and rifle passes to his receivers, but was ill-suited to 3-,5-,or 7-step drop, to roll-out... all the things that a WCO QB is expected to do. He seems much more comfortable when he can just stand on his pitchers' mound and fire passes. A fixed frame of reference should help with all those things you mentioned, especially if he is more psychologically comfortable with standing in a shotgun.
One thing I really disagreed with in the pre-draft evaluation of Weeden compared to most people, is that I thought he did a good job in college of standing in the pocket, and firing a pass while taking a hit... not shirking away. I read he had some issues with that last night (won't get to see the game until Saturday), so I'll watch for that.
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To all:
What are the advantages for taking the ball from under center, as opposed to shotgun?
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No, I didn't think you were in the Weeden camp. I do think that most place too much emphasis on the changing of the offense. We'll see.
Thanks for answering the question. I like hearing the opinions of others, as long as we all keep it civil.
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You can hand it off. No one knows for sure if you are passing or running.
Joe Thomas #73
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Reading the defense. Recognizing blitzes. Calling audibles. More options for the running game.
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It would seem like reading defenses, audibling, and recognizing blitzes would all be easier from the shotgun than under center. What am I missing there?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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I'm not so sure that any of those are true anymore.
Most of the QB's coming into the NFL now have been in the shotgun for most of their careers.They've gotten quite comfortable reading and recognizing from back there.
This I will say though,coming out of or going into the endzone and short yardage,the QB has to be under center.Only because those extra split seconds it takes for the ball to get to the QB destroys your chances of running against a stacked D.
Oh,and trap.It's damned hard to run trap from the shotgun.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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JMHO, everyone's happy Weeds, Camp, other guy did well......but, don't bank on anything yet....if Weeds jump ball had been intercepted, the M would have gone the Rams way AND we could easily be crying in our beer......one game doesn't mean anything.................but was nice way it played out.....next one, let's see more improvement AND touch!!! he smoked that one in there, might have been smarter to throw it away.......GO Browns!!!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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Why do you say that?
I can assume that we are in agreement about the running game, right?
I can see why you question my points about reading defenses and recognizing blitzes. No problem.
But, why would you think calling an audible would be easier from the gun? You can run your entire offense from under center, which isn't true from the gun. I am not saying I don't like the gun, but I was just answering the poster's question.
I think you need to utilize both. I didn't mention this before, but I think you also aide the defense when you are in the gun. They have less to think about. Probably not a huge deal, but it's still something.
I wanna get back to reading defenses pre-snap and reading coverages post-snap. Who do you guys think are the best at both?
Reading defenses: I would pick P. Manning. He does a great job of looking over the defensive alignment and then calling an audible to put them in the right formation and play call.
Reading coverages: This one is harder to recognize. I think Manning is much weaker in this area. He doesn't suck, but this is where he makes his mistake. When teams change up coverages on him and run delayed blitzes up the middle, he sometimes struggles. SD and NE gave him some problems back in the day.
I would have to say it is either Rogers, Brees, or Brady. Probably Rogers. I don't know, though. Again, it's harder to discern.
What do you guys think?
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It was a genuine question for my own learning. I really wanted to know what I was missing. It's not the first time I've heard people say that, but I've never really understood it except for keeping the defense guessing run or pass. That seems to be a legit reason to be under center as well as play action. The rest I wasn't sure about.
I wasn't trying to debate you on that one.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Why would he throw it away? Cameron was open. If you take steam off the ball you risk someone cutting in front of the receiver and getting the pick. IMO that was all on Cameron. But I agree with your thoughts about not being sold on Weeden after one game.
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Quote:
I would have to say it is either Rogers, Brees, or Brady. Probably Rogers. I don't know, though. Again, it's harder to discern.
What do you guys think?
I don't know for sure about who is best at reading coverages and pre-snap reads, but Manning and Rodgers throw out of the shotgun way above the league average.
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2013/02/statistics_show_west_coast_was.html
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Why would he throw it away? Cameron was open. If you take steam off the ball you risk someone cutting in front of the receiver and getting the pick. IMO that was all on Cameron. But I agree with your thoughts about not being sold on Weeden after one game.
Weeden's job is to throw the ball where his receivers have a chance to catch it. Cameron's job is to catch it. It was a well thrown ball with needed zip.
I agree with you. That was all on Cameron, IMO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I know you weren't. LOL...........I think we are both a bit gun shy. I was just wondering what you thought about it. Like I said earlier.......after you pointed it out, I started thinking about reading the defense and recognizing blitzes. You're probably right. I had always understood it to be the way I said, but I don't see how it could make much of a difference.
I do think that it aides your running game and ability to audible. It also gives the D more to think about. But, I gotta concede the reading the defense and recognizing blitz thing, though.
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I do think that it aides your running game and ability to audible. It also gives the D more to think about.
Again, open to anyone:
Okay, good info so far. I'm still curious about these things, though.
1. How exactly is under center better for the running game? Is it because the running back receives the ball while running? Is this the only advantage? Another poster said it has something to do with disguising run/pass plays, but it seems like this can be done just as easily in shotgun.
2. Why is the audible easier? Is it simply a matter of the distance between QB and the rest of the offense? This doesn't seem like a real problem to me because the QB can move in the backfield pre-snap, right? Doesn't Manning do this all the time?
3. Why would it give the defense more to think about? The only reason I can think of is that there are more potential plays from under center, but I'm not sure what those might be. Is the shotgun really more limited in play selection/possibilities?
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pretty sure it would be hard to do play/action out of the gun?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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I think the answer to all three of your questions can be addressed by saying that the offense can run more plays when the qb is under center. For example, you can't run out of the I formation when you are in the shotgun. You can't run an offset I out of the shotgun. You often lose that lead blocker. The RBs vision is compromised. And there are only so many plays you can run out of the shotgun. Additionally, most RBs like running downhill w/a head of steam as they get to the LOS. Just visualize how a RB gets handed the ball out of the shotgun. He is pretty much standing dead still.
Again, I am not saying which way is better. I am saying you need to utilize both. Make sense?
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Quote:
Why do you say that?
I can assume that we are in agreement about the running game, right?
I can see why you question my points about reading defenses and recognizing blitzes. No problem.
But, why would you think calling an audible would be easier from the gun? You can run your entire offense from under center, which isn't true from the gun. I am not saying I don't like the gun, but I was just answering the poster's question.
I think you need to utilize both. I didn't mention this before, but I think you also aide the defense when you are in the gun. They have less to think about. Probably not a huge deal, but it's still something.
I wanna get back to reading defenses pre-snap and reading coverages post-snap. Who do you guys think are the best at both?
Reading defenses: I would pick P. Manning. He does a great job of looking over the defensive alignment and then calling an audible to put them in the right formation and play call.
Reading coverages: This one is harder to recognize. I think Manning is much weaker in this area. He doesn't suck, but this is where he makes his mistake. When teams change up coverages on him and run delayed blitzes up the middle, he sometimes struggles. SD and NE gave him some problems back in the day.
I would have to say it is either Rogers, Brees, or Brady. Probably Rogers. I don't know, though. Again, it's harder to discern.
What do you guys think?
I agree with you on Manning in all respects.
I go with Brady in terms of being the best at reading coverages. You do t see him audible like Manning does (obviously), but he's quick to get the ball out and he understands and executes an elaborate scheme designed to respond to different post-snap coverages.
I think Rodgers and Brees are both good as well, but I think Brees more so utilizes his uncanny accuracy to beat coverages and Rodgers moreso utilizes his ability to keep plays alive.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Yes, that makes sense. I can see how a RB in motion before receiving the ball is in a better position to make a play, and the question of whether or not that RB in motion will actually receive the ball builds in potential confusion. Thanks.
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Quote:
1. How exactly is under center better for the running game? Is it because the running back receives the ball while running? Is this the only advantage? Another poster said it has something to do with disguising run/pass plays, but it seems like this can be done just as easily in shotgun.
Besides running down hill, by turning and handing off the defense has to cover both a hand off and if PA. Makes them be more disciplined. From a shotgun, the DL already has the mindset that the ball no matter what is going to be 4-5 yards behind the LOS at the onset of the play. Allowing them to tee off a little bit.
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2. Why is the audible easier? Is it simply a matter of the distance between QB and the rest of the offense? This doesn't seem like a real problem to me because the QB can move in the backfield pre-snap, right? Doesn't Manning do this all the time?
If you audible in a shotgun, and lets say its a pass play and you wanna switch to a huge gap, the defense has and run it. It's easier to do a quick audible at the line/quick snap and run it up the middle from under center. From the shotgun you'd probably lose a lead blocker and the RB wont be running down hill. If you audible from shotgun to undercenter, your tipping your hand and more then likely the D will audible.
]Quote:
3. Why would it give the defense more to think about? The only reason I can think of is that there are more potential plays from under center, but I'm not sure what those might be. Is the shotgun really more limited in play selection/possibilities?
Besides limited play selection, Think how crafty some QB's can be with the ball under center. Favre comes to mind. The potential for a bootleg or roll out which shifts the focus of pressure makes the defense be disciplined and not able to attack a fixed point.
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Good explanations. I had not thought about it in terms of defense attacking fixed vs. moving target.
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imho the advantage of the gun is that you have space to read the field without someone in your face with hands up. You also have more room to step up and you can see where the edge rushers are at and can adjust to them much easier. The field is also opened up for the inside run on the draw to where you have have monster gains if you catch them rushing the passer and getting out of their lanes.
The disadvantage, The run game often suffers and that attitude of imposing their will over the the defensive line is lost. The play action fake is almost completely ineffective out of the gun. The OL must move on timing instead of command due to loud visiting stadiums. Then you have the shotgun snap being an issue to begin with and throw in inclement weather and you have the makings of a disaster movie lol.
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Quote:
You can't run an offset I out of the shotgun.
Quote:
Just visualize how a RB gets handed the ball out of the shotgun. He is pretty much standing dead still.
Also, look who is incorporating the Pistol into his offense (from Thursday's preseason game):
Here is the definition of the Pistol from Wikipedia:
Quote:
In the pistol offense, also commonly referred to as the "pistol formation", the quarterback lines up four yards behind the center, which is much closer than the seven-yard setback in a traditional shotgun formation. The running back then lines up three yards directly behind the quarterback, which is in contrast to the shotgun, where they are beside each other. It is argued that the position of the quarterback in the pistol formation strikes an advantageous compromise: the quarterback is close enough to the line of scrimmage to be able to read the defense, as with run situation sets such as the I Formation, but far enough back to give him extra time and a better vision of the field for passing plays, as in the shotgun.
And another one from something called SportingCharts.com:
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The pistol formation is a relatively new formation in professional football. By placing the quarterback much closer to the line of scrimmage than the more traditional shotgun formation, the quarterback is able to initiate the play in a better location, but he still benefits from being able to see over the offensive line before the snap.
The other main difference in the pistol formation is that the running back is still lined up directly behind the quarterback. This allows for a variety of run and option plays out of the formation that are unavailable in the shotgun.
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This Blackmon seems like a cancer, I don't know why anyone would ever defend him. Quote:
Justin Blackmon didn't play Friday night in Jacksonville, but even that didn't keep him out of trouble: Jaguars teammate Maurice Jones-Drew had to escort him to the locker room after a verbal spat with Miami Dolphins cornerback Nolan Carroll.
Mark Long of The Associated Press wrote that Jaguars coach Gus Bradley had to get involved at one point before Jones-Drew calmed down the situation. Long later tweeted that he heard it all went down like this: Jaguars defensive end Jason Babin told Blackmon to be quiet since he's suspended for four games. That caused Blackmon to turn on Babin.
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Kids.... 
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In those pics... look how far the RB is from the LOS. To run it, you have to have a mobile QB who is a running threat.
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I think that's an accurate statement.
You can run those formations with a Kaepernick or a Russel Wilson. But with a guy like we got who is not an athletic running threat then you're shotgun formation is just that and you can't line up the RB that far back.
I think most of what has been said on here regarding the positives and negatives of the "under center vs shotgun" debate has been right on target regarding our team and our QB. I like to also say that it's been very informative and educational to me. Good football talk.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
But with a guy like we got who is not an athletic running threat then you're shotgun formation is just that and you can't line up the RB that far back.
Why is that? What does the QB being slow have to do with handing the ball off?
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 137
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 137 |
Quote:
I think that's an accurate statement.
You can run those formations with a Kaepernick or a Russel Wilson. But with a guy like we got who is not an athletic running threat then you're shotgun formation is just that and you can't line up the RB that far back.
I think most of what has been said on here regarding the positives and negatives of the "under center vs shotgun" debate has been right on target regarding our team and our QB. I like to also say that it's been very informative and educational to me. Good football talk.
As far as I can remember, that feller there isn't exactly the most mobile of QBs. Maybe I missed something?
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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I'm not a big X's and O's guy but I'll take a shot in answering your question.
With the QB being an athletic running threat there are essentially two running backs and a passer in the backfield. In addition, the QB could appear to be running on a play only to have him option to the running back. Any one of the now four threats could happen making it a nightmare for the defenses to prepare for and worse yet for them to defend during the game.
Witness the way the 49er's and Seahawks ran roughshod over defenses last season.
In our situation only two of those other mentioned team's four possibilities exist because the QB is never a running or option threat. That makes it much simpler for defenses to prepare for and as has been said earlier, from the shotgun defenses have a little more time to read the play in front of them.
Also, as has been said earlier, under center makes play action more effective because you have a RB running at or near full speed so the defense has to watch him immediately and attentively while at the same time knowing and paying attention to the possibility it could be a play action pass. If the QB pulls the ball back for a pass then they have to discount the RB and re-focus on the pass play. That is confusing for defenses and is the reason why play action works so well if the running threat has been effective up to that point.
On the contrary, in the shotgun without a QB running threat the play is either going to be a pass by the QB or a run by the RB and the defense gets an extra bit of time to read which is happening because both players are so far back from the LOS. If the QB hands it off to a stationary RB it happens quickly enough to allow the defense to focus on the run, (and discount the pass), while the RB is still 4-5 yards behind the LOS and starting from a standstill. (Under center the RB may get the hand-off 2 yards behind the LOS with a full head of steam) If the QB doesn't immediately hand it off to the RB the defense has that extra time to recognize the pass play is coming.
A very good alternative on this is a play we saw during Thrusday's game. A delayed draw. On that play the QB keeps the ball longer making the defense think they are reading a pass play but then after the delay he hands it to the RB catching the defense off guard. It's almost a trick play that Norv called on a 3rd and 5 situation that went for a 1st down.
Like I said I'm no X's and O's guy so maybe someone who is can step in and correct where I may be wrong. But you asked me so I gave it my best shot.
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