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If you want to make 15 bucks an hour than find another damn job. Trust me I am all for the little guy making a living but I am against the little guy make more than 150 percent what he deserves. That's just nuts.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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It's been hard to get a job since 2009, so why would it be easy to just get another job that pays more? Either way, it's still pretty ludicrous when McDonald's fully admits you need a second job to make ends meet. http://consumerist.com/2013/07/15/we-hav...alds-employees/
#gmstrong
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I'm not sure why it's "ludicrous" that McDonald's admits you need an additional income to support yourself or family on their pay scale. I've never met anyone that assumed or thought they could make a decent living wage working fast food. I'm not sure where the confusion originated that any one full time job = ability to support a whole family. Obviously, a full-time employee on the low-low pay scale cannot support an entire family, including housing, food, clothes, misc. expenditures.
I've always viewed fast food service as a part time gig for high school kids. Hell, even then the majority of suburban America kids turn their nose up at working fast food and seek summer employment elsewhere more "popular."
$15/hr is unjustifiable for the skill set required. Fair or not, it's the world we live in.
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I've always viewed fast food service as a part time gig for high school kids.
Except half of minimum wage earners are over the age of 25, so is the perception valid? That is for all hours worked so if we specialized into just full time jobs that percentage would tilt to the older group.
If you think it's valid for someone to work 2 full time jobs to make ends meet then we should abolish min wage entirely because it's not serving its purpose. The purpose of minimum wage is to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well being of said employees. Working 80+ hours a week long term is not a healthy situation. Not to say we haven't done it, I've been fortunate enough to only have to push 90 hours a week for an entire year (shipping my first XBOX360/PS3 game!). But you can't sustain it. You get burned out. I took a month off after that game and was able to recharge, but many can't do that.
Shoot, just going to $9/hr (Washington State's min wage is $9.19) you'd at least make sure the single parents of 1 aren't under the poverty line...
But the numbers are moot when it's more profitable to get on welfare than it is to get into the workplace...
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/ope...TztSW3BoMxn2VrI
#gmstrong
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I'm not sure why it's "ludicrous" that McDonald's admits you need an additional income to support yourself or family on their pay scale.
Have you read that thing?
It is absolutely ludicrous, and if you don't feel that way, you probably need your head examined.
$20 a month for health insurance? Please explain to me in what world that isn't absolutely insane.
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We must stop telling people that producing absolutely nothing actually has some value.
Last I checked, flipping burgers produces burgers.
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I'd be interested to know how big this strike turns out being. As it doesn't really seem to be organized by a union or organization, just some dude?
I am happy everyone here seems to have a basic understanding of how economics works. Easily filled jobs pay little...jobs that require unique skills pay more...
I don't know how much the CEO's are being paid....but McDonalds has 1.7 million employees in the US. Divide some hypothetical 30 million dollar bonus among every employee and they probably make an extra $15 per year. Not an extra $15,000 per year....
Just yelling into the wind on this one. Some schlub doesn't think he is paid well enough doesn't really warrant a news story if nothing comes of it.
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"how can I live comfortably doing the easiest job I can find?"
Fast food jobs are anything but easy. Back in the day, I worked at Rax Roast Beef for a few weeks and then worked in a small factory making 5x as much in pay. The factory job was easier than the fast food job, and I had to carry big sheets of hot glass all day.
I'm not going to belittle the burger flipper or the profession. At least these people have some pride and are working vs. sucking off the government teet. I have a lot more respect for them than I do for freeloaders that feel they're too good for this type of work.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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We are talking about fast food jobs right, which up until maybe 10-15 years ago were primarily part time high school jobs. Just because more uneducated people are now taking those jobs, does not mean the value of the job has gone up anymore. I know plenty of people who have taken jobs at McD, Wendys, BK, etc when times were tough, but they knew, and never intended, it to be a way to make a living. I worked 3 jobs at one time just to get by, I NEVER once told my boss they should pay me more. I did ask for a raise from the primary job, but I came to the table showing I was an asset to the company and let my work speak for itself. They said no, because they used a "length of employment scale" on anyone under 3 years of employment. I gave my notice a week later (Actually gave them 4 weeks so I could finish the project they had me on and not set them back) and then moved to Florida where I started out at 5.00hr cleaning up trash and weed-eating the fence lines at this company where I am now the IT department 23 years later. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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The purpose of the minimum wage is to make people who do not understand either basic economics, or the true nature of the real problem, feel better about themselves.
By simply waving a magic wand and making something valued at $8.00 suddenly "worth" $10.00, it simply causes a ripple of increased pricing throughout the economy and in a fairly short period of time, you're right back where you started.
In fact, you make the problem worse with each iteration. You say to someone on minimum wage "There is no need to make yourself more valuable. Don't bother working harder, learning a skill, seeking better opportunities. None of that is necessary. We will just make your employer pay you more than you are worth."
What if someone had said that to YOU when you were first learning game programming? "We understand that this is the best you can do. We understand that you are not good enough to earn (your current salary), but we will pay you this amount anyway, because we pity you and realize that you will never, ever, be able to better yourself." Would you accept that, or would you have determined to better yourself, learn your chosen profession more completely, and put in the effort to make yourself WORTH the increased pay?
If you had NOT done those things, should you be paid your current salary, or some
lesser amount? Should the person sweeping the carpet make the same amount you do currently?
You also say that you don't think McD's should pay them the extra money, you want some "program" to do this, but then you want McD's to pay the total cost of said "program". Back around to you want McD's to pay them more money.
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The irony of it is that if they give these people a 60% raise, which is about what they are asking for, then the price of the average meal is going to go from $6 to $9 and the consumer will end up paying for it...
I agree with you entirely that this would be the case, but I think this is a good point to highlight a certain attitude I don't quite understand.
Let's say that happened...what you would likely hear is a bunch of noise about how greedy, entitled people should know their place, and in the end it's their fault that poor McDonald's had to jack prices to stay afloat.
When what is really closer to the truth is that this sort of thing is a byproduct of shortsighted and greedy institutions that put that next quarter's profit numbers above all else. People like to roll their eyes at the idea of the "greedy, evil corporation", but that's a straw man argument to an extent.
There's no evil, really...and there's greed on both sides...but if there isn't some shared sense of purpose, some value on a societal level...then it's a damn pyramid scheme. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, I think it's ludicrous to demand $15 an hour for a fast food job. So I'm not really in their corner.
But I am continually baffled by the idea that ::shrug:: 'We've got to operate this way, because profit and responsibility to the shareholder trumps all'.
It's why I always tell friends who want to open a food business to go their own way. Do not go the franchise route, unless it's as a hands-off investment. They will suck you dry and toss the husk if it will bump up the next quarter's numbers.
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If you choose to work for poverty level wages then you should get poverty level wages. Personally I'd rather starve than become a wage slave. A homeless, off the grid, living on the edges of society type life is much more appealing than a life of servitude for the wealthy elite to me. If I choose to work for another for wages, I'm the damn fool if I sell my time(or life) for less than than I feel it's worth.
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Sure, I can understand that. Tell them to pick a business with one of the highest failure rates of all. Tell them to bust their behind so that in a year or two they can go bankrupt, and end up tired and penniless, because they knew how to cook but had no clue how to run a business and make a profit.
Tell them NOT to go into a business with a proven model that virtually guarantees success. Tell them NOT to go into a business with an almost zero failure rate. Tell them NOT to be shown, step-by-step and down to the most minute detail, how to run a business, make a profit, and be successful.
I can understand that.
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By simply waving a magic wand and making something valued at $8.00 suddenly "worth" $10.00, it simply causes a ripple of increased pricing throughout the economy and in a fairly short period of time, you're right back where you started.
Just to add to this. The rest of the non-minimum wage people who worked hard to get up to $15/hr will likely not see a similar increase, or at least until a much later time, and you've now increased the number of people at minimum wage. And once the market adjusts and prices go up, we will have just increased the number of people needing assistance because even Farmtown USA will have Manhattan prices.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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The purpose of the minimum wage is to make people who do not understand either basic economics, or the true nature of the real problem, feel better about themselves.
No, the purpose of minimum wage was to protect those who didn't have the bargaining power to negotiate a living wage. It's why positions like executives and salespersons are exempt,
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By simply waving a magic wand and making something valued at $8.00 suddenly "worth" $10.00, it simply causes a ripple of increased pricing throughout the economy and in a fairly short period of time, you're right back where you started.
If you artificially raise the prices in the market, sure. But if the item is being undervalued at $8 and corrected to $10, the market will adjust. This is why I agree that $15/hr is excessive and shouldn't be forced by the govt. But $7.25/hr isn't a livable wage at 40 hours a week.
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In fact, you make the problem worse with each iteration. You say to someone on minimum wage "There is no need to make yourself more valuable. Don't bother working harder, learning a skill, seeking better opportunities. None of that is necessary. We will just make your employer pay you more than you are worth."
What if someone had said that to YOU when you were first learning game programming? "We understand that this is the best you can do. We understand that you are not good enough to earn (your current salary), but we will pay you this amount anyway, because we pity you and realize that you will never, ever, be able to better yourself." Would you accept that, or would you have determined to better yourself, learn your chosen profession more completely, and put in the effort to make yourself WORTH the increased pay?
If you had NOT done those things, should you be paid your current salary, or some
lesser amount? Should the person sweeping the carpet make the same amount you do currently?
But you're saying that everyone who has ever worked minimum wage decided making $11k a year is awesome and no need to get a higher paying job. I mean we even have examples in this thread of people who did work minimum wage at one point and now aren't. You're making quite the broad generalization. I would make the counter-point that there are many more people trying to better themselves instead of being content at what they do. If someone's making 50k, 75k, 100k, 250k... I mean shoot after 73k there really isn't a whole lot you *need*, but most work to get better, to be worth more. Setting the wage floor from 15k to 18k isn't going to cause an entire country to go put on a visor because THE MONEY IS GOOD YO!
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You also say that you don't think McD's should pay them the extra money, you want some "program" to do this, but then you want McD's to pay the total cost of said "program". Back around to you want McD's to pay them more money.
Nah, I'd just as soon get rid of the corruption that is many of these social programs. All I was saying was that while we do have these programs tho, corporations should shoulder most of the burden compared to the individual.
#gmstrong
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Whether or not the wage for a given job is enough to live on is not relevant.
Whether or not the work done is worth the wage paid, is determined by the person who pays out the money.
What rational economic method are you using to determine that a job that the employer is willing to pay $8.00 for, is "undervalued"?
If a person who was earning $8/hr suddenly starts getting $10/hr for doing the same job in the same way, what have you taught them concerning how you go about earning more money? Will they now be MORE LIKELY or LESS LIKELY to seek a better job?
The market is not "artificially" changed After the wage hike. The Market responds exactly as it should to the initial action, which is artificial. The $10 worker or $10 product goes up correspondingly, and all up the line.
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I'm not sure why it's "ludicrous" that McDonald's admits you need an additional income to support yourself or family on their pay scale.
Have you read that thing?
It is absolutely ludicrous, and if you don't feel that way, you probably need your head examined.
$20 a month for health insurance? Please explain to me in what world that isn't absolutely insane.
Yes, I skimmed the article. Of course the expenses shown as an example are absurd not realistic. I still don't understand where it's crazy for McDonald to say you need a second income to support your family.
But again, I do believe the sample budget is absurd, just not sure how that ties in with my opinion you cannot live in today's world on a McD's full time income.
I'm not too interested in the make believe example McD's and VISA put together to tell me that living on even the $2000/mo they show it would be very difficult to support a family on the kind of income. Hell, I couldn't take care of myself on $2k a month. 
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Quote:
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I'm not sure why it's "ludicrous" that McDonald's admits you need an additional income to support yourself or family on their pay scale.
Have you read that thing?
It is absolutely ludicrous, and if you don't feel that way, you probably need your head examined.
$20 a month for health insurance? Please explain to me in what world that isn't absolutely insane.
Yes, I skimmed the article. Of course the expenses shown as an example are absurd not realistic. I still don't understand where it's crazy for McDonald to say you need a second income to support your family.
But again, I do believe the sample budget is absurd, just not sure how that ties in with my opinion you cannot live in today's world on a McD's full time income.
I'm not too interested in the make believe example McD's and VISA put together to tell me that living on even the $2000/mo they show it would be very difficult to support a family on the kind of income. Hell, I couldn't take care of myself on $2k a month.
See, I can, and do take care of myself on $2000 per month or less. (and will be better able to once I get medical coverage again. I can't live a super extravagant lifestyle, and go out every night, but I can live quite nicely, and even have a few extra niceties as well at $2000/month. I'd be in even better shape if I didn't have to spend $300+ on doctors and prescriptions.
The cost of living in Youngstown is very reasonable though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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30k is a tough living, even for a single man. You could get by, but there isn't much money to put away, and for the most part you're living paycheck to paycheck. I think to live comfortably, you need to make at least 35k, 40k would be ideal. You know you're living good, when something needs fixed, or replaced, you have the cash in the bank to pay for it.
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Not surprised by the near unanimity in this thread, but I suspect most dismiss the notion of a minimum wage increase because they haven't thought enough about it. You are providing the correct and crucial arguments on this issue.
The first problem is the demand for a 15 dollar minimum wage. Like PDR, I'm not convinced this is reasonable, but I am open to seeing some sort of wage increase. Now, the argument against this is that it will only make prices for products increase. If a company wants to maintain its profit margin, then this would probably happen. But what if the company decided to sacrifice a part of their profits in order to give their employees more money? What if every company in the US decided to do this? The number of people living in poverty would decrease and the prices we pay for the products these companies produce would stay the same.
The only way this would happen is if we had a cultural shift--if the Nelson37s of our country could free themselves from a restrictive and disadvantageous political ideology. If anyone is interested in what I'm talking about, check out the thread on China's middle class from a week ago. This issue of how much we should pay minimum wage workers fits right in with what I was saying in that thread.
To summarize, there is a lot of pseudo "conservative" talk happening here. The worst of it is coming from Nelson37 who actually believes the purpose of the minimum wage is to make people feel better about themselves. Ludicrous. I suspect that such a belief is based on some fanciful notion that all persons are inherently equal and so the only difference that could possibly account for one person working at Burger KIng and another working as the CEO is laziness. If you guys want to see the worst and most unreasonable side of the democratic ideology, just read all of Nelson37s posts.
Let's get real. Not all persons are created equal, and personal inequality only becomes more apparent throughout an individual's life. The lifetime minimum wage worker never had and never will have the potential to be a CEO. Many of them lack the potential to be anything more than exactly what they are due to personal deficits in either intelligence or any number of other personal attributes. Anecdotes about how your grandfather rose through the economic ranks have nothing to do with this. Anyone who is able to progress economically possesses the intelligence and determination to do so. Not everyone is equivalent in this regard.
The basic issue, then, is this: for those of us who possess the requisite abilities to achieve wealth and power in our society, what kind of society do we want to create and maintain? If Nelson37 had his way, there would be no minimum wage since all it amounts to is a pat-on-the-back for those who don't deserve it. Does anyone doubt that in a society without a minimum wage, the trend for wages would be stagnant or downward? Who wants to live in a society where people are earning a wage that is well below what is necessary to maintain a decent life? Be thoughtful here, especially you Nelson37. Your answer to this question will demonstrate how much historical knowledge you have of other societies that were not mindful of the welfare of the entire citizenry and what happened to those societies as a result.
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So, gage, I appreciate your sticking to your guns on this in the face of criticism... but when was the last time minimum wage was "a liveable wage?" How long has it been since that was the expectation?
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30k is a tough living, even for a single man. You could get by, but there isn't much money to put away, and for the most part you're living paycheck to paycheck. I think to live comfortably, you need to make at least 35k, 40k would be ideal. You know you're living good, when something needs fixed, or replaced, you have the cash in the bank to pay for it.
Here's the problem: It all depends where you live.
$30,000 in a city (take new york) is decidedly NOT $30,000 in other areas.
I know of many people around here that live on $30,000 and do just fine raising a kid or 3, with a stay at home spouse. No, they don't live high on the hog.......but own a home, kids dress nicely, etc.
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Lol, Thomas Edison.
I don't think many people were rocking overalls in 1789.
Same thing...  My bad.
yebat' Putin
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Not surprised by the near unanimity in this thread, but I suspect most dismiss the notion of a minimum wage increase because they haven't thought enough about it. You are providing the correct and crucial arguments on this issue.
The first problem is the demand for a 15 dollar minimum wage. Like PDR, I'm not convinced this is reasonable, but I am open to seeing some sort of wage increase. Now, the argument against this is that it will only make prices for products increase. If a company wants to maintain its profit margin, then this would probably happen. But what if the company decided to sacrifice a part of their profits in order to give their employees more money? What if every company in the US decided to do this? The number of people living in poverty would decrease and the prices we pay for the products these companies produce would stay the same.
That will never, ever happen with a publicly traded company. It is wishful thinking if you are on the side of wages should be increased, but it is just a pipe dream.
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The only way this would happen is if we had a cultural shift--if the Nelson37s of our country could free themselves from a restrictive and disadvantageous political ideology. If anyone is interested in what I'm talking about, check out the thread on China's middle class from a week ago. This issue of how much we should pay minimum wage workers fits right in with what I was saying in that thread.
I'm not as extreme on this issue as Nelson, however I do think that everyone can improve themselves and make more money if they really try. I think TopDawg mentioned his experience with this earlier in the thread.
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To summarize, there is a lot of pseudo "conservative" talk happening here. The worst of it is coming from Nelson37 who actually believes the purpose of the minimum wage is to make people feel better about themselves. Ludicrous. I suspect that such a belief is based on some fanciful notion that all persons are inherently equal and so the only difference that could possibly account for one person working at Burger KIng and another working as the CEO is laziness. If you guys want to see the worst and most unreasonable side of the democratic ideology, just read all of Nelson37s posts.
I think he believes far from everyone being equal, much as I do. Not everyone can be a CEO. Everyone can flip burgers. That being said, I do inherently believe that everyone is capable of much more than flipping burgers if they apply themselves. The woe is me attitude is what kills me on this issue - they guy has worked at BK for 8 years at minimum wage?!? How is that even possible unless you are doing the bare minimum and just don't care.
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Let's get real. Not all persons are created equal, and personal inequality only becomes more apparent throughout an individual's life. The lifetime minimum wage worker never had and never will have the potential to be a CEO. Many of them lack the potential to be anything more than exactly what they are due to personal deficits in either intelligence or any number of other personal attributes. Anecdotes about how your grandfather rose through the economic ranks have nothing to do with this. Anyone who is able to progress economically possesses the intelligence and determination to do so. Not everyone is equivalent in this regard.
Everyone can advance - didn't we once have something called "The American Dream"? I guess that no longer exists 
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The basic issue, then, is this: for those of us who possess the requisite abilities to achieve wealth and power in our society, what kind of society do we want to create and maintain? If Nelson37 had his way, there would be no minimum wage since all it amounts to is a pat-on-the-back for those who don't deserve it. Does anyone doubt that in a society without a minimum wage, the trend for wages would be stagnant or downward? Who wants to live in a society where people are earning a wage that is well below what is necessary to maintain a decent life? Be thoughtful here, especially you Nelson37. Your answer to this question will demonstrate how much historical knowledge you have of other societies that were not mindful of the welfare of the entire citizenry and what happened to those societies as a result.
I'm going to preface now that I do not have historical knowledge on this subject, so being the unsuccessful minion that I am just going to go with my experiences. People have to want to better themselves. They have to have drive. I hear the complaints all of the time - I need to work 80 hours a week to do this, etc, etc. Well, I've got news for those complaining - MOST highly successful people work A LOT. Not just 40 hours and go home. I am of the opinion that everyone has the intelligence to do something better than work a minimum wage job IF THEY TRY! Problem is, a lot of the complainers want everything given to them for no real merit.
#gmstrong
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jc
Really wasn't going to weigh in on this. Too many "Intellectual Elitist" pounding their personal drums based on their view through the lenses of their political beliefs.
Here is the view through my lens as I see it. A group of non-skilled workers stuck in unskilled jobs for whatever reason are demanding to be given wages that are unrealistic for that job set or they will walk off the job and stage a mini strike.
Do they really believe that 1: The Company is going to bow to those demands and 2: They cannot be replaced by a multitude of other unskilled workers? I feel for the situation they find themselves in, but the economy is on shaky ground as it is and raising the wages of that many people to almost twice what they are getting now will hammer the economy in a negative way. It isn't going to happen and I hope they don't get fired but will not be surprised if every person that strikes will be fired. They are very expendable and are cutting their noses to spite their face so to speak.
The Constitution shall never be construe to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams
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What a bunch of self-entitled buttholes. I hope they go on strike and lose their jobs. Wanting $15/hr for the least skilled position on Earth...get out of here.
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I guess the difference between us is that I believe people are much less capable of changing who they are than you do. You're right: it takes a lot of hard work to be successful. But what does it require to work hard? And what is required to make progress when working hard? This comes down to intelligence, in my opinion, and work ethic falls in this category. I don't believe the Burger King lifer has it in him/her to work harder or be smarter. Human nature is not malleable in this regard. It would be great if it was, if everyone could work as hard as the most intelligent and talented among us. But, unfortunately, this is a fantasy.
So, it seems to me we have two options. We can reject that human beings are innately unequal in intelligence and work ethic and berate them for it, as Nelson37 and others are doing, or we can embrace the fact that some people are destined to work at Burger King for their entire lives and give them a decent wage in order to keep them from agitating and causing problems for our society. What I'm saying is profoundly undemocratic, which is why Republicans and Democrats alike will oppose what I am suggesting. I will be dismissed as an elitist and an enemy of the American Dream. I would say I'm just being realistic and true to human nature.
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Legend
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But what if the company decided to sacrifice a part of their profits in order to give their employees more money? What if every company in the US decided to do this?
And this is where ideas on policy cross from reality into utopian dreamland.
Yes, it is possible... but unless you do away with the construct of publicly traded corporations, this will never happen. It is the sort of thing that only happens in smaller companies, or companies that are trying to retain valuable, vested labor. Companies that have an adequate supply of capable labor will NEVER do this - and it is simply because companies do not exist to employ people, they exist to make money for the people that own them. Employing people is a necessary evil for companies to grow. Every dollar paid to an employee is a dollar not in their own pocket.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Dawg Talker
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And this is where ideas on policy cross from reality into utopian dreamland.
What if every person in this country believed in what I'm advocating. Would that make it possible? I don't see why not. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about public policy or governmental interference. What I'm talking about is much more fundamental than that. This is a matter of changing what people believe to be most important in life. It's about what we value, and it's about virtuous behavior trumping the desire to acquire as much wealth as possible without considering the society that provides the environment to make the acquisition possible. Is that utopian, or have we bought into the insidious lie, propagated by Ayn Rand and her devotees, that the accumulation of wealth without a social conscience is a virtue? What I advocate is an examination of what we truly value about the society in which we live. Is it really the accumulation of wealth, limited only by what we are forced to give up, or is there something more important than this? These are questions that cannot be settled by a government or a policy imposed on the unwilling. This is a matter of what we believe and the culture derived from what we believe. If it is utopian for the beliefs of man to change, then I'm afraid we are lost; but I don't believe this to be the case. We will recognize these truths sooner or later. I'm hoping we do so of our own accord instead of being forced to realize it as our society is torn apart by disproportionate, unsustainable wealth distribution.
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So, gage, I appreciate your sticking to your guns on this in the face of criticism... but when was the last time minimum wage was "a liveable wage?" How long has it been since that was the expectation?
Not that long ago. Min Wage in 1980 was 3.10/hr. Inflation adjusts that to 8.79/hr today, a fair bit more than what min wage is now. But that doesn't even cover things that have raised faster than the rate of inflation, things liký\ HbøÿV‹ñ‹Îÿ$i· ÆF^ÃÌÌÌ_ ŒbøÿU‹ìWVSƒì3À‰Eè‰Eì‰Eð‰Eä‹ñ‹
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"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Quote:
Quote:
But what if the company decided to sacrifice a part of their profits in order to give their employees more money? What if every company in the US decided to do this?
And this is where ideas on policy cross from reality into utopian dreamland.
Yes, it is possible... but unless you do away with the construct of publicly traded corporations, this will never happen. It is the sort of thing that only happens in smaller companies, or companies that are trying to retain valuable, vested labor. Companies that have an adequate supply of capable labor will NEVER do this - and it is simply because companies do not exist to employ people, they exist to make money for the people that own them. Employing people is a necessary evil for companies to grow. Every dollar paid to an employee is a dollar not in their own pocket.
I'd hardly call it an idea rooted in a 'utopian dreamland'.
There are plenty of companies that look to the long-term rather than maximizing quarterly profits. Amazon is one that comes to mind, and I don't think too many of their investors are complaining. Not only are there a lot of companies that do this, but their shareholders are probably better off in the long run. I would argue that it's more beneficial to investors for a company to focus on it's long-term success rather than chasing the dragon of the next quarter, which is basically the crux of these arguments, and huge part of the problem.
Setting your house on fire because you're cold will certainly keep you warm, but the next day you won't have a place to live.
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I would argue that it's more beneficial to investors for a company to focus on it's long-term success rather than chasing the dragon of the next quarter, which is basically the crux of these arguments, and huge part of the problem.
I can agree with this completely, and it is the mode corporate America has operated in since the late 70's and early 80's. I do not see it changing, however. Some companies will be able to maintain success while doing this, but that is more a factor of them already being exceptionally successful.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Setting your house on fire because you're cold will certainly keep you warm, but the next day you won't have a place to live.
And, when translated into a business sense..........too many people don't understand.
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Not reading most of this thread...I would like to weigh in on the issue...
First and foremost...If you've been to a fast food restaurant in the past years...you'll notice that the average worker there...Not all mind you...but the average worker there, that you come into contact with...doesnt have his stuff together. When a business branch has to "find the most presentable person to put up front" you're not doing a great job. When I have to sit at a drive through window for a half hour to get the wrong food at 11:30p I question if these people should even be making minimum wage. To have to go back in and tell them my order for a 2nd time, after waiting a half hour.
It's not that fast food is a difficult job...the people working there are not the best workers on the planet. When at dunkin donuts, I watch a guy stare at the register for over 2 minutes to find the sandwich I ordered...and doesnt ask someone for help or anything...just blankly stares at it...I wonder if min wage is too much...
Is it a burden on a family to work somewhere for 5 years and still be paid only a dollar more per hour than a high school drop out that has been there for a week and wont last much beyond that? Oh yes...is that a disservice? Yes.
Instead of demanding to be paid $15 dollars per hour...how about demand a moderate raise schedule. Does the kid who works there a total of a month and just slows everything down and screws up constantly deserve $15? No...does a person who does the job for years and does it well? Sure...Fix the raise schedule, reward workers for being there more than 2 months...and go that way.
If you dont like the pay...leave. If you cant find anything else...improve yourself. There are enough online programs, or community colleges that cheaply educate you if you have the time...and if you dont have the time to leave, be online...make yourself more marketable.
Our society is becoming handout dependent...I cant survive on this, so you should fix this...
Improve yourself...and itll improve your marketability and your ability to survive. Do the slower lions complain about not getting choice meat from an animal? If they do they get booted and have to find their own food...or they make that choice on their own, or they get faster...
If your situation sucks...change it...Dont complain til it gets better, at the behest of quality. The places sell $1 burgers...if everyone gets higher pay, prices have to go up...
IDK...I feel like theres people with the ability to climb ladders sitting on their current rung complaining that the product is too high...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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How do you read that link and come away with the concept that "Walmart is taking" anything from anybody? People who can't earn enough money can't afford much. To blame this on WalMart is non-sensical. There are other low-dollar employers, there are other jobs that just about anybody can do that pay a bit more.
If a Wal-mart job is the best that somebody can do, then if they want to make more money either find something better or learn to live with it.
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I think you hit the nail on the head. We are becoming a "dependent" society, as opposed to an independent society. Too many rely on "well, I want this, I deserve that - somebody better give it to me", as opposed to a "I want this, I deserve that, and here's what I'm going to do to make myself able to get there."
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We are becoming a "dependent" society, as opposed to an independent society.
I agree with this sentence, but I think we have different views on what it means.
Whenever we talk about jobs, wages, the economy, etc., there's usually a lot of long-winded debates and proposed solutions that don't really address the problem.
I know I can be a broken record about this, but simply put, we've shifted from being a producing economy to a consuming one.
That's our economic crisis, in a nutshell, and sadly it's not going to change. At least not until the cycle completes itself and we become to China what they currently are to us.
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I won't argue with you..........but rather than going from a producing society to a consuming one, as you state, I would say we've gone from production to a service society. And they're are still good jobs in a service economy for those that want them and will WORK for them.
We still have production - just not like we used to.
On a different tangent - imo too many people think they need to start at the middle and stay there, as opposed to starting at the bottom and working their way up.
The "work ethic" of too many people is just sad. It's "give me give me give me.....WHAT? I have to learn something new to move up? I have to show up m-f, and some saturdays? Hell no, that's beneath me."
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I won't argue with you..........but rather than going from a producing society to a consuming one, as you state, I would say we've gone from production to a service society.
I agree with that. I think we're saying the same thing, just using different terms.
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And they're are still good jobs in a service economy for those that want them and will WORK for them.
I wouldn't call the majority of the jobs available in the service economy 'good'. The primary make-up is things like fast food, restaurants, bars, Wal-Mart, Target, etc. Now, in this economy, that's nothing to sniff at, but a sustainable economy it does not make.
And I would argue that what one would consider 'good' service jobs, i.e. mechanic, are decaying as well. A lot of that work has been shifted to a teenager at AutoZone who looks at a computer and says 'Oh, you need this part'.
There are still good service positions out there, but they're dwindling, and the competition is getting so fierce that the jobs are losing value, as well.
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And therein lies my "work ethic" thoughts.
I make a decent living - and I'm what most would call a menial, manual laborer. However, I respect my customers (or clients, whatever term you'd like to use). I work most saturdays, and many holidays. I know it's different here in my little 4 to 5 county area as opposed to the big city boys.........but word of mouth goes a long way. (and by the way, just this week I was complimented 2 different times on not the work I did, but my work ethic)
I have a bro in law. Home schooled. Didn't get a s.s. number until he wanted to marry my sister. She's a physical therapist - makes pretty good money. He makes more. How? Work ethic. He farms for someone - not himself. He's also a self taught mechanic. And I guarantee, I'd put him up against the top mechanics anywhere........doesn't matter what he's working on - he can fix it.
Work ethic. Being willing to go above and beyond what the majority would do........it gets you places. Ask any person in car sales. Do you leave at closing time? Or do you stick around for sometimes an hour, or 3 hours later?
What I'm saying is work ethic and hard work, dedicated work, and commitment will take you much much further than a simple law saying you're going to make, at minimum, this much. People may start at minimum, but the cream rises to the top, and the cream doesn't stay at minimum. The crap does.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Fast Food workers plan to strike
Aug 29, want $15 hr
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