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Eventually, sooner or later the min wage will always rise. But the rate of climb continues to drive the middle class out of the American dream.
I'm curious what the correlation is between the minimum wage and the middle class...
Not sure there is one.
Good for you, because there isn't one. Middle class means not making minimum wage.
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Eventually, sooner or later the min wage will always rise. But the rate of climb continues to drive the middle class out of the American dream.
I'm curious what the correlation is between the minimum wage and the middle class...
Not sure there is one.
Good for you, because there isn't one. Middle class means not making minimum wage.
I was wondering how there could be. When you speak of Min Wage, you are talking sub $8 per hour.. That is no where near middle class.
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Eventually, sooner or later the min wage will always rise. But the rate of climb continues to drive the middle class out of the American dream.
I'm curious what the correlation is between the minimum wage and the middle class...
Not sure there is one.
I was wondering if he was implying that minimum wage should get you to middle class... if so, then it's not really "middle class" is it? I mean if you make the government minimum, then by definition, you can't really be middle class, right? "Middle" implies that there are people below you.
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Taking a roommate, canceling cable, turning off the AC…these are all irrelevant because they're all changes in lifestyle, resulting in an apples-to-oranges comparison.
They are relevant, because they are what you do when you need to, you eliminate the unnecessary expenditures and/or increase income.
They absolutely are not relevant at all to your premise that your son lives well despite making what would be considered a poverty-level wage. You omit assistance from family that amounts to a 70% increase in his annual earnings by virtue of not having the expense of a basic necessity that 99% of the middle class does have.
If you were to call that $850/month rent due, he would have to make serious concessions, at which point he would either no longer be living well by most subjective standards, or he would no longer be earning a poverty-level wage. As it stands, that the two intersect is only because of your help, which is a luxury that the majority of adult minimum wage earners do not enjoy.
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If you were to call that $850/month rent due, he would have to make serious concessions, at which point he would either no longer be living well by most subjective standards, or he would no longer be earning a poverty-level wage.
Florida has already addressed that.. and your numbers are a little skewed because the kid is paying the taxes and he is paying the HOA fees, these would normally be covered by the landlord in most rental situations.. so he is paying what amounts to $125/month in rent..
Florida has already stated that if he DID have to pay rent, he could get a cheaper place and/or get a roommate and that things would be tighter than they are now be he would make it and still be able to save some money
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Taking a roommate, canceling cable, turning off the AC…these are all irrelevant because they're all changes in lifestyle, resulting in an apples-to-oranges comparison.
They are relevant, because they are what you do when you need to, you eliminate the unnecessary expenditures and/or increase income.
They absolutely are not relevant at all to your premise that your son lives well despite making what would be considered a poverty-level wage. You omit assistance from family that amounts to a 70% increase in his annual earnings by virtue of not having the expense of a basic necessity that 99% of the middle class does have.
If you were to call that $850/month rent due, he would have to make serious concessions, at which point he would either no longer be living well by most subjective standards, or he would no longer be earning a poverty-level wage. As it stands, that the two intersect is only because of your help, which is a luxury that the majority of adult minimum wage earners do not enjoy.
Slow down there. I didn't say he was living high on the hog, I was pointing out that a one could live on very little earnings if they were willing to make sacrifices and not expect a lot of luxury items and unnecessary comforts that many have come to expect.
Does he have a huge advantage over many young adults starting out? Hell yes, and he is thankful for mine and his mothers hard work and sacrifices that have afforded him this advantage. I could also point to a lot of 25 year olds who still live at home, pay no rent or utilities and have not a penny saved or a thing to their name.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 08/30/13 04:01 PM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Eventually, sooner or later the min wage will always rise. But the rate of climb continues to drive the middle class out of the American dream.
I'm curious what the correlation is between the minimum wage and the middle class...
Not sure there is one.
I was wondering if he was implying that minimum wage should get you to middle class... if so, then it's not really "middle class" is it? I mean if you make the government minimum, then by definition, you can't really be middle class, right? "Middle" implies that there are people below you.
Thus you understand why is said what I said. 
#GMSTRONG
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Not to get on my on a soapbox but some of the pediatric patients I treat have diseases that the fast food industry is directly contributing to... Obesity, diabetes, liver disease, orthopedic disease, etc...
O off my soap box about what fast food contributes to our society
I just don't see how a worker instead of changing their own circumstances wants to get paid almost twice as much as they are currently making for something that a teenager with no high school education could do
thank you! If you don't like your circumstance,, work to change them. I recognize that it's not as easy as saying it and it's done. But it can be done.
I'd agree with you in terms of the health effects of the American diet, which fast food is a part of. Doesn't change the fact that 1/4th of America will eat it daily.
Going on strike is changing something. Just because a lot of people can do your job, doesn't mean they want to. We see this a lot with plumbers and other unskilled craftsman. While they have the same education level as a high school dropout, they get a lot of money, because no one wants to do their job. Striking is just testing your demand.
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I've been reading, but not posting, on this thread since it started. It has been more from curiosity than anything. I suppose I should have some opinion on this issue. It would seem most people do, but I really don't know where I stand on this. I am instead focused on working my ass off at 61 years old to make ends meet. I guess that's the way I always figured it worked, work hard to provide for yourself and your family while always looking for opportunities to improve your situation. At any rate, the 29th has come and gone which made me wonder how the strike went. Below is one article out of many which covered the event. Fast-food-strikes-hit-cities-across-country Fast food strikes go super-sized in clash over wagesJeff Cox CNBC.com Aug. 29, 2013 at 12:40 PM ET Zenquetta Charles of Brooklyn, protests outside the Burger King in New York City's financial district where she works as a cashier for $7.25 an hour. She says she wants higher wages and to be part of a union. The battle to boost the minimum wage escalated Thursday when thousands of workers at hundreds of fast food restaurants in 50 U.S. cities walked off the job to demand decent pay. From San Diego to New York, workers stopped flipping burgers, frying fries, and slathering on secret sauce in what organizers called the largest strikes against the nation's fast food companies ever. "You're trying to go up and you're just going down," said protester Shantel Walker, 31, of Brooklyn who makes $7.25 working at a Papa John's in Manhattan. "All of us are in the same financial crunch. We're trying to take care of our families and our livelihood." The strikes mark the latest salvo in a nearly year-long battle to get not only higher wages but also an opportunity to unionize without facing retaliation from employers. The workers' ire is at the heart of a politicized debate to raise the country's minimum wage that eventually may be decided in Washington. U.S. Labor Secretary Thomas Perez told The Associated Press the strikes were a sign of the need to raise the minimum wage. "For all too many people working minimum wage jobs, the rungs on the ladder of opportunity are feeling further and further apart," Perez said. Workers are demanding that the $200 billion fast food industry more than double starting salaries to $15 an hour from the current $7.25 an hour minimum wage and the $8.94 median wage for front-end workers. Workers mobilized in cities from Alameda, Calif., to West Haven, Conn., and across the nation, including several demonstrations in New York City. To date, strikes have been held in one city or the other, or in regions, but nothing like Thursday's national push, according to organizers. "Our workers are not getting paid sufficiently to take care of our families," Shonda Roberts of Oakland told KNTV outside the McDonald's on East 12th Street in Oakland. About 200 workers marched through the midtown Manhattan McDonald's Thursday morning, and more gathered downtown in the Financial District. As the streets became more crowded with protesters beating drums and blowing loud whistles, police struggled to keep traffic moving. The strike comes as a growing number of minimum wage fast food workers are not teenagers, but adults trying to support families, particularly since the Great Recession. Only 16 percent of fast food industry jobs now go to teens, down from 25 percent a decade ago. More than 42 percent of restaurant and fast-food employees over the age of 25 have at least some college education, including 753,000 with a bachelor's degree or higher, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. "You're trying to go up and you're just going down," said protester Shantel Walker, 31, of Brooklyn who makes $7.25 working at a Papa John's in Manhattan. Walker was one of many protesting in favor of higher wages and uniionization for fast food workers in the financial district of New York City Thursday, Aug. 29, 2013. Janul Dixon, 35, came out on Thursday to offer his support to the workers. He used to work at Wendy's for a low wage, but has since found employment as an exterminator. "They need to allow people to make enough to support their family," he said. "In New York everything is going up but wages are not." Industry defenseThe National Restaurant Association has countered that only about 5 percent of fast-food workers earn the minimum wage. Other defenders of the industry note that increased wage costs will be passed onto consumers. "The restaurant industry provides opportunity to over 13 million Americans with jobs that meet critical needs within our economy. We welcome a national discussion on wages, but it should be based on facts. The restaurant industry is the nation's second largest private sector employer and our industry is an industry of opportunity," said Scott DeFife, executive vice president of policy and government affairs at the National Restaurant Association. "Nine out of ten salaried restaurant workers, including owners and managers, started as hourly workers. The fact is, only five percent of restaurant employees earn the minimum wage and those that do are predominantly working part-time and half are teenagers," DeFife added. He said that restaurant jobs provide workers with valuable skills, such as a strong work ethic, that would help them advance their careers. McDonald's, which has 34,000 restaurants across the globe., was quick to defend its salaries. "McDonald's aims to offer competitive pay and benefits to our employees. We provide training and professional development for all of those who wish to take advantage of those opportunities," the company said in a statement. Thursday's strike was expected to be "the largest attempt at worker organizing in this industry ever" amid support from the Service Workers International Union, and grassroots efforts from community groups, local politicians and the clergy, said Tsedeye Gebreselassie, an attorney at the National Employment Law Project. "The workers are responding to total failure on behalf of the federal government to raise the minimum wage to keep up with inflation and the cost of living," Gebreselassie said. Organizers stressed the importance of the strike spreading to Southern states. "The South has always been the model for low wage employment, from slavery to the Jim Crow laws, to the present," said Dorian Warren, an assistant professor of political science at Columbia University who has published work on labor organizing and inequality. "It's also the most anti-union part of the country, so the fact that workers feel empowered enough to take collective action is enormous." Strikers have complained that while revenue is up about 13 percent at fast-food restaurants as of August, it's not being passed on to the workers. All the media attention paid to the strikers Thursday may re-ignite the minimum wage debate, in which opponents say higher employment costs will mean fewer jobs and higher prices for customers. In The Wall Street Journal on Thursday, the conservative Employment Policies Institute ran a full-page ad with a picture of a robot making pancakes, warning that higher wages would mean "fewer entry-level jobs and more automated alternatives." "You can either raise prices and lose customers, or (automate) those jobs," said Michael Saltsman, EPI's research director, adding that "the idea that restaurants are rolling in the money is not representative of the situation franchisees face." The protests come 50 years after Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. led hundreds of thousands of Americans in a March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. One of their demands was to raise the federal minimum wage to $2 a hour, roughly equivalent to $15 in today's dollars. —By CNBC's Jeff Cox. Follow him @JeffCoxCNBCcom on Twitter. Reuters and the Associated Press contributed to this report.
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I've been reading, but not posting, on this thread since it started. It has been more from curiosity than anything. I suppose I should have some opinion on this issue. It would seem most people do, but I really don't know where I stand on this. I am instead focused on working my ass off at 61 years old to make ends meet. I guess that's the way I always figured it worked, work hard to provide for yourself and your family while always looking for opportunities to improve your situation.
Probably the most insightful quote on the issue. Very well written.
It's not black-and-white, and if you feel it is, you're probably on the wrong side.
You said way more than the article you posted, in a fraction of the words.
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jc:
15/hour for working at a fast food joint?
sorry to any on here who are older and working there now(if any), but minus the manager, fast food jobs should really be for teenagers only. those are suppose to be jobs for kids who need work experience and/or who are paying their way through college.
NOT for people trying to support their families.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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jc:
15/hour for working at a fast food joint?
sorry to any on here who are older and working there now(if any), but minus the manager, fast food jobs should really be for teenagers only. those are suppose to be jobs for kids who need work experience and/or who are paying their way through college.
NOT for people trying to support their families.
Not really. I'm 61 years old,, probably going to retire at some point,, I won't need the money but I"d go nuts sitting at home. So I'll have to do something,, I'm not much of a golfer anymore, I can't drive my Z in the winter (I should say I WON'T drive my Z in the winter), hate bowling, tired of fishing (did to much of that as a kid)..
So, my choices are, sit at home or in a bar and drink, volunteer somewhere, or take a job making min wage just to see people.
My mom did that.. She's 87 now, but just retired from Fashion Bug about 2 years ago.. just before they went under as a matter of fact.
She didn't need the money, it was just something to keep her feeling young.
My mother in law is 80. She volunteers at a thrift store.. I asked her why (she's very very comfortable financially). She said it keeps her young. you know what, it does.
So it's not just old people that need to support a family (probably some of it is).. Its people wanting to feel relevant and vital. Can you understand that?
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Not at all. I don't get why people retire just to continue working. But I think that's just the painter in me.
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It can be very boring to be at home all the time if you are retired and a lot of people need a sense of purpose rather than sitting around.
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Not at all. I don't get why people retire just to continue working. But I think that's just the painter in me.
are you saying you don't understand how a person could retire and want to do something to occupy their time?
Cause it's either have a hobby, travel, volunteer, work or sit in front of the idiot box with a beer in your hand..
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sort of, but at the end of the day, i still think i rather young kids, including my own daughters when they get to working age, to work at occupy jobs like that, rather than some old guy who already is getting a retirement check, just so he/she can be young.
so sorry if i offend you, but i rather have teenagers to work at fast food joints paying their way through college or just earning experience than senior citizens who've already made their mark on the world working at these jobs just to feel young again...or how it usually is in my observations, stare at young women like old perverts.
you're retired, time to let the young bucks earn their keep.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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sort of, but at the end of the day, i still think i rather young kids, including my own daughters when they get to working age, to work at occupy jobs like that, rather than some old guy who already is getting a retirement check, just so he/she can be young.
so sorry if i offend you, but i rather have teenagers to work at fast food joints paying their way through college or just earning experience than senior citizens who've already made their mark on the world working at these jobs just to feel young again...or how it usually is in my observations, stare at young women like old perverts.
you're retired, time to let the young bucks earn their keep.
Sometimes "retired" people still need to work as well if they expected to rely just on social security. Regardless, if someone who is retired wants to still work why would you have a problem with that? There are plenty of minimum wage jobs to go around - it's not like they are taking them away from teenagers.
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plenty?
thats odd cause i don't see them. maybe where you live. but i'm stationed in Ft. sill, and in a military town of all places, there are barely any jobs, unless you have a degree of some sort. hell, back before i joined the military, there wasn't much to choose from in cleveland back in 2006.
i don't have a problem with old people working. i'll say this again, i have a problem with old people working typical jobs that normally teenagers work in, for various reasons including college and such. you can work in an office still, or hell even Wal-Wart. plenty of adults and seniors work there. and theres plenty of other places.
but sorry, i get annoyed when i see a 61 year old guy working at foot locker, who doesn't know the hottest brands out and gets annoyed when theres teenagers running around. places like that, and entry level fast food positions are for teens and early 20's to get some job experience.
so yes, i have a problem with seniors working THOSE type of jobs.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Not at all. I don't get why people retire just to continue working. But I think that's just the painter in me.
are you saying you don't understand how a person could retire and want to do something to occupy their time?
Cause it's either have a hobby, travel, volunteer, work or sit in front of the idiot box with a beer in your hand..
It's the mindless shifts at a banal job that I don't understand. I get it if you still need to make money for a living, but if you're just looking for something to do then I don't. Like I'm a fan of hobbies, volunteer hours, and travel, and those sound a lot more appealing to me than flipping patties.
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When I was a teenager I flipped burgers at McDs. It was a really fun job, but most people who worked there way back then were also teens. So it was social time as well.
It bothers me that people try to earn a living wage on these jobs instead of them being jobs for kids and such as temporary work.
It makes me think this goes back to the economy being bad / lack of better jobs / much higher increase in tuition costs such that people can't afford to go to school to better themselves.
I was a teenager 25 years ago. Times have changed a lot since then. There was no such thing as being 100k in debt from college costs back then. Unless you were in medical school or something. The high cost of college in an uncertain market has to be really intimidating to a lot of people.
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plenty?
thats odd cause i don't see them. maybe where you live. but i'm stationed in Ft. sill, and in a military town of all places, there are barely any jobs, unless you have a degree of some sort. hell, back before i joined the military, there wasn't much to choose from in cleveland back in 2006.
i don't have a problem with old people working. i'll say this again, i have a problem with old people working typical jobs that normally teenagers work in, for various reasons including college and such. you can work in an office still, or hell even Wal-Wart. plenty of adults and seniors work there. and theres plenty of other places.
but sorry, i get annoyed when i see a 61 year old guy working at foot locker, who doesn't know the hottest brands out and gets annoyed when theres teenagers running around. places like that, and entry level fast food positions are for teens and early 20's to get some job experience.
so yes, i have a problem with seniors working THOSE type of jobs.
So you are saying that I would not be able to find a job by going to a few fast food joints? I find that hard to believe. All I see around Columbus and Roanoke, VA (the two cities I know the most) are help wanted signs at McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, you name it. I agree that these jobs should be for high school/college kids but I don't think that minimum wage jobs are that hard to come by. Maybe I am wrong, as I haven't looked for one in 25 years, but there sure are a lot of help wanted signs around for these types of jobs.
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Not at all. I don't get why people retire just to continue working. But I think that's just the painter in me.
are you saying you don't understand how a person could retire and want to do something to occupy their time?
Cause it's either have a hobby, travel, volunteer, work or sit in front of the idiot box with a beer in your hand..
It's the mindless shifts at a banal job that I don't understand. I get it if you still need to make money for a living, but if you're just looking for something to do then I don't. Like I'm a fan of hobbies, volunteer hours, and travel, and those sound a lot more appealing to me than flipping patties.
For once I agree with you  The only way you will find me working after I retire is if I need the money. I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen. I'd retire now if I could.
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Not at all. I don't get why people retire just to continue working. But I think that's just the painter in me.
are you saying you don't understand how a person could retire and want to do something to occupy their time?
Cause it's either have a hobby, travel, volunteer, work or sit in front of the idiot box with a beer in your hand..
It's the mindless shifts at a banal job that I don't understand. I get it if you still need to make money for a living, but if you're just looking for something to do then I don't. Like I'm a fan of hobbies, volunteer hours, and travel, and those sound a lot more appealing to me than flipping patties.
For once I agree with you The only way you will find me working after I retire is if I need the money. I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen. I'd retire now if I could.
Completely agree. The day I retire, I look forward to traveling more with my wife (exploring the world), partaking in new hobbies I had not made time for, enjoy grand kids (assuming I have them) and lastly, if not most importantly, enjoying the moment.
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sort of, but at the end of the day, i still think i rather young kids, including my own daughters when they get to working age, to work at occupy jobs like that, rather than some old guy who already is getting a retirement check, just so he/she can be young.
so sorry if i offend you, but i rather have teenagers to work at fast food joints paying their way through college or just earning experience than senior citizens who've already made their mark on the world working at these jobs just to feel young again...or how it usually is in my observations, stare at young women like old perverts.
you're retired, time to let the young bucks earn their keep.
REALLY?
Go to any McDonald Franchise owner or to a store manager at Wal-mart.. They'll tell you without any reservation, the most reliable people that work for them are the retirees. The ones that come back either out of need money or need to feel alive and stay in contact with people.
Go ask them..
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I understand every thing you said Daman, I assume that someday I'll retire and probably work as one of those old crotchety starters at a golf course or something just to stay busy. I get that much. I'm doing fairly well financially but I don't want to kid myself, I'm not going to have the kind of money at retirement that allows me to jet set around the world taking one trip after another... most people aren't.
Now let me ask you a question... how do you think the retirees affect the overall dynamic of these jobs? As you say, many of them aren't doing it because they need the money, so they don't care if they are making $7.25 or $10.50 or $14.00... they don't really care. So as a box store or fast food manager, if I can hire a retiree who is going to be more reliable and work quietly without complaining for the $7.50/hour.. or I can hire a 20 something kid who is going to be less reliable and complaining that they need more money to live.... well I think the answer to that is pretty self-explanatory... what do you think?
yebat' Putin
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I have no problem with seniors working at fast food jobs. Doesn't change the fact they are minimum wage jobs, and most seniors taking those types of jobs, that what it is, a part-time job to use up time to get them out a few hours a week.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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They'll tell you without any reservation, the most reliable people that work for them are the retirees.
Not to mention they have this thing called a work ethic .
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Legend
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I understand every thing you said Daman, I assume that someday I'll retire and probably work as one of those old crotchety starters at a golf course or something just to stay busy. I get that much. I'm doing fairly well financially but I don't want to kid myself, I'm not going to have the kind of money at retirement that allows me to jet set around the world taking one trip after another... most people aren't.
Now let me ask you a question... how do you think the retirees affect the overall dynamic of these jobs? As you say, many of them aren't doing it because they need the money, so they don't care if they are making $7.25 or $10.50 or $14.00... they don't really care. So as a box store or fast food manager, if I can hire a retiree who is going to be more reliable and work quietly without complaining for the $7.50/hour.. or I can hire a 20 something kid who is going to be less reliable and complaining that they need more money to live.... well I think the answer to that is pretty self-explanatory... what do you think?
If the Human Resource Stats that I am privey to are anywhere near close, the biggest problem is, kids don't want those jobs at McDonalds.
Those places are having a tough time finding people to hire.. and then when they hire them, the younger ones flake out and miss work and in general are a problem.
When you hire a retiree, you get someone that is already seasoned, understands the value of the service they provide and they show up and do a good job.
So the impact of retirees entering or re-entering the work force has been positive overall for employers like Wal-mart, McDonalds and many other retail establishments like Lowes, Home Depot, Target, K-Mart, Sears.. All have reported better results overall with the retiree hiring they've done.
In a much smaller way, I've had the same kind of experience. Since I place Engineering Temps, the young folks may have some good or better book learnin then the older retirees, but they can't match what an elderly engineer has seen.
Can't even begin to touch what they know. You can't get it out of a book. So, many employers I work with shun the young up and comer in favor of a seasoned pro. Funny how that works.
Did I answer your question?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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If the Human Resource Stats that I am privey to are anywhere near close, the biggest problem is, kids don't want those jobs at McDonalds.
Those places are having a tough time finding people to hire.. and then when they hire them, the younger ones flake out and miss work and in general are a problem.
When you hire a retiree, you get someone that is already seasoned, understands the value of the service they provide and they show up and do a good job.
So the impact of retirees entering or re-entering the work force has been positive overall for employers like Wal-mart, McDonalds and many other retail establishments like Lowes, Home Depot, Target, K-Mart, Sears.. All have reported better results overall with the retiree hiring they've done.
In a much smaller way, I've had the same kind of experience. Since I place Engineering Temps, the young folks may have some good or better book learnin then the older retirees, but they can't match what an elderly engineer has seen.
Can't even begin to touch what they know. You can't get it out of a book. So, many employers I work with shun the young up and comer in favor of a seasoned pro. Funny how that works.
Did I answer your question?
In the professional field that is a problem. Those young up and comers only have their book learning because the corps want experience, but you can't get experience without getting hired. It's a bad cycle.
In a menial minimum wage jobs like fast food, walmart greeters I can understand.
We have a college nearby, the McD by the college, maybe 2 miles from it, is mostly staffed by college and high school kids. The service is decent considering how busy that store is, and the food is as expected.
Now 7 miles away we have another McD, mostly staffed by 20 somethings and older folks, and the staff seems to change every time I visit. The service is absolutely horrid (I would be better off typing in my own order), the food is usually subpar, and the tables and chairs always need to be wiped down before you sit because they don't seem to do it.
If it weren't for the multiple free sandwich coupons they give me every time I email corporate about the poor food and service, I would never go there.  I figure eventually they have to get the hint that they should hire competent people. Maybe it's just the neighborhood, because The Burger King half a mile away is just as bad.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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In the professional field that is a problem. Those young up and comers only have their book learning because the corps want experience, but you can't get experience without getting hired. It's a bad cycle.
\
You kinda missed the point there FF..
If let's say, XYZ manufacturing wants to hire a Draftsperson to help with a period of high workload for let's say, 6 months, a young kid, coming out of ITT Technical isn't going to get it quick enough. He/she might learn it, but about the time they get it, the assignment is over.
Where as, if I go get a guy that's been drafting and designing a similar product for 30 years, maybe started out on a Drafting board instead of a CAD system, he's going to walk in, sit down and hit the ground running and actually be able to be a value added person.
But if that same company wants to fill a Full Time slot with an Drafter/Designer or Engineer that they can groom to be exactly what they want him/her to be, they will go to a recent grad or someone with minimal experience. (maybe 1 or 2 years)
When they come to me for help, they need someone that can hit a home run right from the Get Go.
Do you see the difference now?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The ideal candidate for employers is a 20 fear old out of college with 40 years of experience...
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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The ideal candidate for employers is a 20 year old out of college with 40 years of experience...
That's like trying to buy a Cadillac for the price of a Chevy.. rarely works LOL But yeah, that's what some of them try to do until I tell them almost verbatim what you just wrote, then the light goes on..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
In the professional field that is a problem. Those young up and comers only have their book learning because the corps want experience, but you can't get experience without getting hired. It's a bad cycle.
\
You kinda missed the point there FF..
If let's say, XYZ manufacturing wants to hire a Draftsperson to help with a period of high workload for let's say, 6 months, a young kid, coming out of ITT Technical isn't going to get it quick enough. He/she might learn it, but about the time they get it, the assignment is over.
Where as, if I go get a guy that's been drafting and designing a similar product for 30 years, maybe started out on a Drafting board instead of a CAD system, he's going to walk in, sit down and hit the ground running and actually be able to be a value added person.
But if that same company wants to fill a Full Time slot with an Drafter/Designer or Engineer that they can groom to be exactly what they want him/her to be, they will go to a recent grad or someone with minimal experience. (maybe 1 or 2 years)
When they come to me for help, they need someone that can hit a home run right from the Get Go.
Do you see the difference now?
I got your point from the start, I was talking more about full time long term positions.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Did I answer your question?
Sort of... The foundation of my question was, do you think the retirees are keeping wages lower than the market would otherwise be? Are there enough retirees in those positions to have that much impact?
yebat' Putin
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~ Legend
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~ Legend
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You're going down a bad path. 
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This is true. Kids don't want to work at McDonalds. I once worked at McDonalds with my girlfriend and a few friends. Took me about 2 weeks to quit. I absolutely hated it. Everyone I ever knew who worked in fast food could only last a few months at most.
I think it's because parents and teachers always told us to never work flipping burgers. We've linked being dumb = flipping burgers, and no one wants to be dumb.
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The ideal candidate for employers is a 20 year old out of college with 40 years of experience...
Sad but true. As Damanshot knows, I was recently in the middle of a post-graduation job search (not anymore, thank God) and if I had a dollar for every job listing I saw that wanted a recent grad with 3 or 5 or more years experience, I wouldn't have needed the very jobs I was after. It seems to me that anymore, your internship or co-op is your first job, in engineering at least, and you better get that one right because staying on with the company after graduation is by far your best bet to find employment.
Companies don't want to train employees anymore. They don't want to pay a commensurate salary plus benefits to someone while they learn on the job.
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Legend
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This is true. Kids don't want to work at McDonalds. I once worked at McDonalds with my girlfriend and a few friends. Took me about 2 weeks to quit. I absolutely hated it. Everyone I ever knew who worked in fast food could only last a few months at most.
I think it's because parents and teachers always told us to never work flipping burgers. We've linked being dumb = flipping burgers, and no one wants to be dumb.
I worked BK for 4 years starting on my 16th birthday. Hard to find a job with more flexible working arrangements as you go from HS sports/activities to early college (coming home random weeks, etc). Helped me save up the money that paid my way through college (well, a good piece at least).
Actually had to quit when I took my first internship as an engineer. BK offered me more $$ than I would be getting there, but the experience is what I needed (and helped me get subsequent higher paying internships and eventually the fulltime job after college).
Nothing wrong with flipping burgers. Just use it as a means to an end if possible.
#gmstrong
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Did I answer your question?
Sort of... The foundation of my question was, do you think the retirees are keeping wages lower than the market would otherwise be? Are there enough retirees in those positions to have that much impact?
No, I don't believe they are. Corporations know what minimum wage is, they know they have to be there or more.
Then it becomes a market driven number. They know that they can't fill every opening with a retiree (if they could, then I'd say yes to your question) so they have to put together a prevailing wage structure for each position.
Once that is established, if two people walk in and apply for the same job, neither have experience, one is 21, the other is 61. either one they hire is going to be paid the same prevailing wage. So no, it doesn't matter.
Now, like I said, if suddenly, all they could find is retirees, that could change the dynamic.. Not sure how much. (which answers the second part of your question)
The crux of this is, they don't want "JUST" retirees. They know they need younger employees, therefore, the wage has to be good enough to attract them. And of course, that means, they can't discriminate against someone due to age.. So, equal pay for equal work.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It seems to me that anymore, your internship or co-op is your first job, in engineering at least, and you better get that one right because staying on with the company after graduation is by far your best bet to find employment.
My first job as a software engineer was by working really hard during the internship and asking for the full time position about a month before it ended....
I think it's like the apprenticeship of other fields IMO
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Fast Food workers plan to strike
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