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What has changed?
In college he couldn't lay off the weed, now it's the purple drank. Duh.
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if our Front 7 is good to great and Horton is a fine DC then why do we allow all those points? Especially in the 2nd half when teams STOP running and pass the ball on us?
We are 7th in yards allowed and T12th in points allowed (by comparison, the Bengals, who are regarded as a very good defense, are 12th in yards and T12th in points with us) so I'm not sure what "all of these points" is referring to... but...
We have given up 64 points.. 16 of those came on drives of less than 20 yards because our offense keeps turning the ball over on our own side of the field.. that's 25% of the points we've given up, were given up while allowing less than 20 yards of offense.. and if memory serves, 13 of those 16 were given up without allowing a first down.
Other teams are going to score points, we aren't THAT good yet... so we can't help them by giving them 5-6 points per game for free. That is the difference between winning and losing a lot of games in the NFL..
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just look at the Chiefs or Dolphins. That could be us.
Could be... and I'm not saying this is the only factor, but the Dolphins completion % has gone up 8% from last year, the Chiefs up 4%, and ours has gone down 3.5%.
Dolphins YPA is up almost a full yard, Chiefs up .3 of a yard, and ours is down half a yard.
TD to INT ratio for the Dolphins last year was 13-13, its up to 4-2.. Chiefs was an abysmal 8-20 last year and is up to 4-0,.. ours was 16-18 last year and is roughly in the same place at 5-6...
There are other factors to be sure, but both the Dolphins and the Chiefs are getting much better QB play this year than they got last year while ours has been the same, if not a little worse.. they are winning close games and we are not.
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He set this team back hoping to tank the season. Im proud of Ched for saying tohellwiththat we gonna win anyways and gonna do everything we can cuz this team not willing to tank a season.
That is a ridiculous comment. There is no factual evidence to support it. It was fueled and driven by pure hate and bitterness.
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So, a fourth string guard, a FB, and a cb are the reasons we are losing.  But, the qb play has nothing to do w/it. 
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Good, valid points and I'm not saying that the QB is absolved, far from it. Weeden was a BIG reason we lost those games too, I even said so in multiple postgame threads, but many fans think he's the only reason and that's short sighted. Btw, what IS the reason the D isn't THAT good yet as you say? To me it's an easy answer: CB2, CB3 and FS aren't close to above AVG and the clear weak links that get exploited as soon as the rush doesn't come through.
Weeden got hated on since he got drafted, totally absolving TRich from any blame. I lamented this obvious bias all of last season. The guy simply was disliked from the word go, some were Colt lovers and some just rode the 28/29yo rookie QB thing to death. Just now when we traded TRich the same fans are starting to blame the no3 pick too. As much as people didn't believe in Weeden, pretty much everyone was ok to give him this season under Norv to see whet he really is, not two freaking games with his best weapon missing. Hell, even Colt got his "let's see" season under Shurmur, although having no tools to work with. Since we have no potential franchise QB on the roster, that's the way we should go as soon as he's able to play again. Yes, he was still slow processing his options, but his pocket awareness and toughness have clearly improved imho, that was evident in his first two games. I'm not saying he's the answer, but give the dude a fair chance and more than 2 games and 16 overall starts before you throw away a 22nd overall selection just like this, that's not only stupid, it'd be a bad business decision too. Let's be smart for a second, personal opinion of his upside/play aside.
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Since we have no potential franchise QB on the roster, that's the way we should go as soon as he's able to play again.
Why do you say that? We have no potential franchise QBs on the team. Therefore, we need to play the guy that gives us the best chance to win. Weeden is not a potential franchise QB...why does he get to "develop" over a guy who gives us a better chance to win?
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Yes, he was still slow processing his options,...
And Hoyer was the opposite.
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but his pocket awareness and toughness have clearly improved imho, that was evident in his first two games.
I find that interesting. His pocket awareness those first two games is what sealed the deal in my opinion of him.
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I'm not saying he's the answer, but give the dude a fair chance and more than 2 games and 16 overall starts before you throw away a 22nd overall selection just like this, that's not only stupid, it'd be a bad business decision too. Let's be smart for a second, personal opinion of his upside/play aside.
Well...I don't subscribe to that draft selection theory. He was a bad pick at #22 overall. Two wrongs don't make a right. He can either do it or not...regardless of the draft slot.
Weeden cannot do it...he has not progressed as a pro...he really doesn't do anything special or even well. Investing more into developing a guy who is already on his ceiling doesn't make sense.
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I'm just curious as my memory is shaky. Were you the person who was a big fan of Weeden pre-draft DJ?
Frankly as a very casual fan I can't distinguish the intricacies of the position enough to tell if Weeden or Hoyer have any chance to improve. I'm easily impressed by wins and easily upset with missed throws and losses.
I'm not sure how anyone without the All-22 can really judge a QB. Considering that most WRs aren't really visible on screen. All we have to go by is the accuracy of the passes we see. So Weeden overshooting Obi goes a long way in most fan's minds.
I wouldn't underestimate the importance of Gordon being on the field in Hoyer's performance. How do you think Dalton would look without AJ Green? How would Stafford look without Johnson? How is Brady looking without his all-star cast?
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The Eye test sure made it appear that Hoyer did more right then Weeden. FWIW.
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BINGO!!!!
Hoyer scored TDs Weeden didn't
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Good, valid points and I'm not saying that the QB is absolved, far from it. Weeden was a BIG reason we lost those games too, I even said so in multiple postgame threads, but many fans think he's the only reason and that's short sighted. Btw, what IS the reason the D isn't THAT good yet as you say? To me it's an easy answer: CB2, CB3 and FS aren't close to above AVG and the clear weak links that get exploited as soon as the rush doesn't come through.
Weeden got hated on since he got drafted, totally absolving TRich from any blame. I lamented this obvious bias all of last season. The guy simply was disliked from the word go, some were Colt lovers and some just rode the 28/29yo rookie QB thing to death. Just now when we traded TRich the same fans are starting to blame the no3 pick too. As much as people didn't believe in Weeden, pretty much everyone was ok to give him this season under Norv to see whet he really is, not two freaking games with his best weapon missing. Hell, even Colt got his "let's see" season under Shurmur, although having no tools to work with. Since we have no potential franchise QB on the roster, that's the way we should go as soon as he's able to play again. Yes, he was still slow processing his options, but his pocket awareness and toughness have clearly improved imho, that was evident in his first two games. I'm not saying he's the answer, but give the dude a fair chance and more than 2 games and 16 overall starts before you throw away a 22nd overall selection just like this, that's not only stupid, it'd be a bad business decision too. Let's be smart for a second, personal opinion of his upside/play aside.
I'd be okay with it if the team were to give him the job back after his thumb heals DJ... But I'll also be okay with Hoyer. I just want to be interested in watching on gameday, not making plans to go to the mall.
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I truly wonder how Hoyer would have looked without Gordon. Would he have processed his decisions faster ...... or did the fact that he had an often wide open Gordon help make his decision making process faster? Face it, Gordon is the one player we have on offense who can consistently get himself open, even against double coverage. He makes the QB's job easier ..... much easier. He is the one guy we have at WR who has the ability to break any catch and take it the distance. He is our best offensive weapon, by a mile, and with him in, teams cannot concentrate on trying to take Cameron out of the game plan.
I bet that Hoyer would have looked far more mortal if Gordon had not played. I do think that played into the decision to have Hoyer play. I bet that we would have seen Campbell if Gordon had not played.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If Gordon plays to his abilities then we did not trade our best offensive [skill position] player.
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I truly wonder how Hoyer would have looked without Gordon. Would he have processed his decisions faster ...... or did the fact that he had an often wide open Gordon help make his decision making process faster?
I don't know the answer to that question.
I do know that having Gordon on the field didn't make Weeden's decision process any faster.
I think Weeden will probably get another start at some point this season. But I doubt he's going to suddenly make leaps in problem areas he's made no progress in to date. And his confidence is probably shot, as well.
Weeden has a cannon for an arm and a ten cent head. Hoyer has limited tools, but some football intelligence. Neither is going to be the starter next year.
Honestly, if I'm trying to lose games to land Bridgewater, then I start Weeden.
But last week was as bold as I've ever seen this organization be since they came back. In a matter of days they named the third stringer the starter, traded the face of the franchise, and rolled out a game plan that featured a fake punt and a fake field goal.
It remains to be seen how this regime pans out, but at least I'm excited.
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I bet that Hoyer would have looked far more mortal if Gordon had not played. I do think that played into the decision to have Hoyer play. I bet that we would have seen Campbell if Gordon had not played.
Hoyer looked very mortal to me.
We've just witnessed such poor QB play for so long, that average looks great to so many.
I believe giving the reigns back to Weeden depends on where this FO and coaching staff sees things as of now.
If their decision is to dump Weeden at seasons end, there really isn't much point in starting him anymore. Unless there's some chance they feel he may play well enough to raise his value in a future trade scenario. I haven't seen any evidence that is the case.
It's easily imaginable that they may see giving Hoyer this time to develop as a long term back-up is a much better investment of time.
I don't see any possibility that we have an answer on this roster at having a franchise QB. So I could see any move they make in the starting QB as viable.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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We've just witnessed such poor QB play for so long, that average looks great to so many.
and at a lot of other positions as well.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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I agree. When your #2 CB isn't even looking back for the football and simply throws his arms up, it proves that sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I agree. When your #2 CB isn't even looking back for the football and simply throws his arms up, it proves that sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
I know you want to keep bashing Skrine for this play, but it did stop a TD. I understand that he just threw his hands up, but sometimes that is all it takes. The good part of the play was that he was beat deep, and had the speed to close and make the play. If Haden does the same thing people would be praising him.
It is clear that you refuse to give him any credit for playing a decent game. I guess that your mind is made up about him, so trying to poo poo his play away seems to fit your agenda. He has struggled mightily up to this point, but he saved two TDs, he should be commended for that. Just because you don't like the way he achieved it, doesn't make it a bad play. Stopping a TD is his job, and he did it.
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When you aren't even looking back for the ball and simply throw your hands up in the air, it's a lucky play. So you call it what ever you like.
I know the difference. If you don't, that's not my fault.
LMAO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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He reacted to the play got his hands up and deflected the pass. Luck would have been the receiver dropped the ball or the QB over threw him by 5 yards lol. Sorry but a corner recovering and getting his hands up deflecting the ball without drawing a flag is a good play.
Skrine is playing pretty good football. He has made some terrific open field tackles and has been a big reason why our run defense has been outstanding.
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He was likely watching the WR's eyes and correctly judged when the ball was arriving. When the eyes get big, the ball is close. Skrine shows me some speed and good skills. Although he's played a lot he hasn't played a lot, meaning: He hasn't been out there game after game starting. The more he's the #2CB the more experience he'll get. Right now each new WR is a little bit different. He's learning each game.
It's not like he's slow, and it's not like he's stupid with no skills. He's just a below average guy thrown into the action and needs to continue improving.
Would I like to have a more experienced, better skilled CB? Of course. But Skrine is who we have and I'm behind him as I am all the others. He got a bad rap in the Cowboy's game when he got burned for multiple TD's and it seems many made their mind up on him right then and there.
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Well I appreciate those words of wisdom. I'll remember that when a CB can't even see where the ball is, has his back to the ball and simply throws his hands up in the air, he is doing his job and doing it the way it's supposed to be done.
He'll get burnt often playing that way just like he was the first two weeks. Nobody can say with a straight face that's how you are supposed to be positioned in coverage. Nobody with a straight face can say those weren't sheer luck.
But yes, he has helped with run defense. Opposing D's pick on Skrine for a reason in pass coverage. And the way he played last week? He'll get burnt far more than he'll get lucky by simply throwing his hands up in the air with no idea where the ball is.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Nobody can say with a straight face that's how you are supposed to be positioned in coverage.
you are correct, but when you are out of position like everybody will be from time to time you are taught to do exactly what he did.
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Nobody can say with a straight face that's how you are supposed to be positioned in coverage.
you are correct, but when you are out of position like everybody will be from time to time you are taught to do exactly what he did.
Agreed. I was going to ask pit if skrine plays with his back to the ball all of the time......or was it a one time deal?
Guys get out of position sometimes.
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And guys watch receiver's eyes when they feel the ball is coming and there's no time to turn their head around.
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Agreed. I was going to ask pit if skrine plays with his back to the ball all of the time......or was it a one time deal?
Guys get out of position sometimes.
It was on both of his biggest plays last week. And the two prior weeks, he was burnt often.
I'm not hating on the guy and he has the speed so hopefully he'll improve on his coverage.
I just found it funny how I'd seen so much praise on the plays where he was out of position and had to pull a cover your a$$ move in hopes of not being burnt.
His coverage has been sub par at best was my only point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And yet we have only given up 2 passing TD as a team through the 1st 3 games, and Skrine gave up one of those when it appeared that Owens was supposed to have the deep cover against Hartline, and didn't get started to double until it was too late.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Agreed. I was going to ask pit if skrine plays with his back to the ball all of the time......or was it a one time deal?
Guys get out of position sometimes.
It was on both of his biggest plays last week.
Just busting your butt here.....but, if his 2 biggest plays last week (I assume you mean in pass coverage) were him with his back to the ball, couldn't we look at like "hey, he was out of position and STILL prevented a catch"? Also, doesn't that actually speak highly of him?
Say you're the opposing team. Are you going to take your shots against Skrine, or Haden?
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And the two prior weeks, he was burnt often.
That may be. Again, as an opposing team, do you go after Skrine, or Haden? And by "burnt often", remember, other teams ARE going to complete passes against us.
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I'm not hating on the guy and he has the speed so hopefully he'll improve on his coverage.
I just found it funny how I'd seen so much praise on the plays where he was out of position and had to pull a cover your a$$ move in hopes of not being burnt.
Fair enough. The other angle to that is, "hey, we have a guy that, while not great, is quick and fast enough to cover his butt when he gets burned. That's what we have this year? Okay, we'll take it. 2 td passes in three games - for the entire defense. I suppose it could be worse.
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His coverage has been sub par at best was my only point.
I think most will agree with that........but the other side of it is, has he really hurt us? Again, I'm taking the view of "Skrine will be attacked more often than Haden." And I think he's done just fine.
With that said, there is always room for improvement - from anyone, on any side of the ball.
He's what we have, and so far, he's done okay.
I would imagine Haden will be out of position a time or 2 today. Does that make him bad?
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Did you watch the game today pit? Skrine had at least one play where he had his back to the ball and broke up a play.
He had one where he had P I called on him as well.
He also played very well.
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Skrine is the weak link in this defense until he proves otherwise. I think this game helps him out, if he keeps playing this well teams will not attack him so hard.
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Skrine is the weak link in this defense until he proves otherwise. I think this game helps him out, if he keeps playing this well teams will not attack him so hard.
I agree.
And if Skrine really is our weak link.........well boy howdy, we don't have much of a weak link do we?
Every team has a weak link. Skrine has done okay, don't ya'll think?
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I think that Skrine played a great game today. He was on both Green abd Sanu, and neither guy was much of a factor in the game. He is a tremendous tackler. I said this before the game, and I can say it here against after the game ,..... only with another game played. We have now played 4 games, and we have allowed exactly 2 TD passes. In a passing league, that is astonishing. Skrine has allowed one of those TD passes. (and on that pass it looked like he was expecting deep help that never came. Owens looked like he had the deep zone, and was late getting over. Very late.) If he allows 1 TD pass every 4 games ..... I can deal with him being our "worst player". 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Skrine was his usual up and down all game, not sure what game all of you saw. He got beat soundly numerous times but luckily Dalton didn't throw a good ball on some of those plays and his stupid PI was Cincy's biggest play of the game.
Otoh, he had some nice pass breakups and tackles. Overall, he played like a decent no2 CB today, but I really don't see how he was among the best. He wasn't even a top 5 performer on our D today...
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Skrine is the weak link in this defense until he proves otherwise. I think this game helps him out, if he keeps playing this well teams will not attack him so hard.
I can't believe you wrote that after this game.. 
#GMSTRONG
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4 games, 2 TD passes allowed by the entire defense.
"Nuff said.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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He wasn't even a top 5 performer on our D today...
Only because everyone else played well.
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Skrine was his usual up and down all game, not sure what game all of you saw. He got beat soundly numerous times but luckily Dalton didn't throw a good ball on some of those plays and his stupid PI was Cincy's biggest play of the game.
Otoh, he had some nice pass breakups and tackles. Overall, he played like a decent no2 CB today, but I really don't see how he was among the best. He wasn't even a top 5 performer on our D today...
I was watching the game on t.v. The Browns vs. the bengals.
Tell me, when did Skrine get beaten soundly, numerous times?
Dalton was 23-46 for 206 yards.
When was Skrine "beaten soundly numerous times?"
Oh, he IS a number 2 cornerback. And apparently, against this wo is me offense of the bengals........he did pretty damn well.
Jango......the more you post your insistent "I'm right and if you don't agree with me you're wrong" stuff.......even in the face of facts - the facts of the games..........the worse you look.
It IS obvious you know a lot about football. It is also obvious you don't know jack but you pretend you do.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,890 |
When Skrine was on Green, Green didn't get much. Hardly a difference between him and Haden.. I'm not sure what Jango is talking about.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,545
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,545 |
j/c You have to give the new regime a lot of props for all the moves they have made - they have enjoyed a LOT of success. I saw a poster saying all the moves were logical !!! What a crock of B.S. If it was all logical - why has it taken 14 years for a Front Office to get it right??? We've signed so many "big" free agents and they have flopped - or we've free agents like Frostee Rucker...  You judge the team based on wins and loses - and the FO should be judged the same way - they have hit on most of the moves they have made, and I like it. The draft is always a cr@p shoot -- I'm hoping they hit again next draft. In the mean time I'm going to sit back and enjoy the football the Browns play every game.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
Skrine was his usual up and down all game, not sure what game all of you saw. He got beat soundly numerous times but luckily Dalton didn't throw a good ball on some of those plays and his stupid PI was Cincy's biggest play of the game.
Otoh, he had some nice pass breakups and tackles. Overall, he played like a decent no2 CB today, but I really don't see how he was among the best. He wasn't even a top 5 performer on our D today...
This is correct. It's weird to me how people can't see this. Then go back after the fact to stats to defend him.
Dalton is not a very good QB. If he was better it wouldn't have mattered much against Haden. If he was better it would have mattered against Skrine. I'm not picking on the guy but I only see a very moderate improvement from last year.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 816 |
Quote:
Quote:
Skrine was his usual up and down all game, not sure what game all of you saw. He got beat soundly numerous times but luckily Dalton didn't throw a good ball on some of those plays and his stupid PI was Cincy's biggest play of the game.
Otoh, he had some nice pass breakups and tackles. Overall, he played like a decent no2 CB today, but I really don't see how he was among the best. He wasn't even a top 5 performer on our D today...
This is correct. It's weird to me how people can't see this. Then go back after the fact to stats to defend him.
Dalton is not a very good QB. If he was better it wouldn't have mattered much against Haden. If he was better it would have mattered against Skrine. I'm not picking on the guy but I only see a very moderate improvement from last year.
Skrine is getting tons of help from the Front 7. He's not having to hang on in coverage as long and that's important. Has his game improved? I think it has a little bit. But the big difference is that the QB is facing pressure. We didn't have that pressure last year. If all our DL get healthy at the same time and the rotation really gets cooking it'll be scary. Skrine is an adequate corner. We have areas of greater need on the team.
Most of the QB's in the NFL aren't "very good". There are only ten or so that will really make you suffer for the slightest mistake. So I think our defense will continue to have Trick or Treat on them for the most part. It's only a matter of time before they start putting points on the board. That's when it'll get really fun.
8-8 is starting to look like a real possibility this year.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Lombardi's/Banner's 2013 Moves
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