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The way I see it now we can cry and whine or we can put our heads down and work harder and continue to win.
Yeah, how I feel behind my keyboard is the key to the team's success.
Look, I get that you love Weeden. You wanna believe that he is going to lead us to a good season..........fine.
I was stating my own feelings. You calling me a cry baby or a whiner isn't going to change them.
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I was stating my own feelings. You calling me a cry baby or a whiner isn't going to change them.
Brought to you by the author of the "tank this" threads 
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Win and I think we will regardless of who the QB is and the reason I say that is because we really haven't won a single game because of the QB play so far. They have contributed to winning but they haven't carried the team, the defense has done that and that hasn't change a bit...
Really? While the defense is our bread and butter but I just don't believe these sentences at all. What about the 2 game winning drives when Hoyer marched us down the field?
Last edited by tastybrownies; 10/06/13 10:53 AM.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
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When Hoyer went down and Weeden came in, I will be the first to admit the doom and gloom engulfed me. I didnt think we had a prayer to win that game and that another 5 win season was coming.
I do however feel that there is an NFL quarterback in Weeden. It may take Norv and Chud beating it out of him but it is there. These 10 days off are the most important 10 days of Weeden's life. This team is willing to pick him up and carry him forward, we saw that on Thursday.
The Weeden debate gets decided now. 10 days and I think we will know everything about Weeden we wanted to know good and bad. The Lions D is the same D we played last year basically, so the film study and prep time needs to be spent on Weeden and his receivers. Know where to the ball is going before that back foot hits the ground.
I have my doubts, but I also have hope that it clicks. He is football dumb and the only way to get football smart is study and experience. Just do it.
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Look, I get that you love Weeden. You wanna believe that he is going to lead us to a good season..........fine.
Your simply wrong about that Vers, I don't care for the guy at all, I have seen enough and I wanted nothing more then to see Hoyer finish the year and for many years to follow but I'm not going to hang my head and cry about something like this because its counter productive IMO...
But that's me and my make-up I don't give up easy, I'm not a quitter that's for damned sure...I think we have a damned good football team and staff, and they will through hard work and aggressive game planning find a way to win...
I haven't changed my thought that we should be a better team come week 9 of the season then we were week one of the season. I know Hoyer makes it a lot easier for us to win, but I still expect to win.. I won't cry or whine about anything unless this defense folds which I don't see happening... 
BTTB
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What were the 2 drives?
He drove us to victory in the Vikings drive, He did a fantastic job on that drive in that game.
In the Bengals game, we scored a TD with 2 minutes left ...... in the first quarter. We won the game 7-6. I actually think that Hoyer was better overall in this game. I wish we could see what he would do with the rest of the year, because he did some really nice things when he was in the game. I could hardly believe my eyes, because I never expected him to do as well as he did.
That said though, he is out for the year. We can dream, and imagine, and wonder what he might have done the rest of the year, but we don't know. He is out, and we can't do anything to get him back. Weeden is likely the starter for the rest of the season, unless he gets hurt. Then Campbell .... and then .... well, I hate to think. I am going to hope that Weeden can fix some of his flaws so that we can maybe have a winning team, and maybe even a playoff team. (God willing)
I find it funny that Sapp is on TV right now talking about a great defense "dragging the opposing QB into misery" when your own offense has an under-performing QB. I think that there is value to that mindset. I think that the defense, if they are a great defense, needs the mindset of getting out there and making more plays because your own offense, QB, and running game may be under-performing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Win and I think we will regardless of who the QB is and the reason I say that is because we really haven't won a single game because of the QB play so far. They have contributed to winning but they haven't carried the team, the defense has done that and that hasn't change a bit...
Really? While the defense is our bread and butter but I just don't believe these sentences at all. What about the 2 game winning drives when Hoyer marched us down the field?
Any response I make will come out sounding wrong but here goes..
There was but one game winning drive and that was brought about by virtue of the fact that we had int's that were converted into points non the less the game winning drive was a wonderful thing.
Look I think Hoyer hands down was our best option at QB but this defense is the reason we will win or lose, that fact hasn't changed even a little bit...
Outside of anyone playing QB turning the ball over repeatedly this defense has and will continue to keep us in the game...
All is not LOST would be my point. We can sit and cry and . and moan or we can get busy and work harder, which course do you think and expect the team to take???
I just so happen to think we all should support that.....For cause.... 
BTTB
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I'm trying to overlook and get past my deflation that Hoyer is gone for the season because he's gone and that can't be changed it just like YTown said. We have to move on. But I just have a hard time watching Weeden again if he makes the same exact mistakes as he did in his previous games of staring down receivers, holding the ball to long, you know what I mean...I want him to improve but I simply don't have any faith that he will.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
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I was skeptical of annointing Hoyer when he first stepped in.
That said he did enough to impress me over the course of the games he played. By all means draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round - Hoyer will be good enough to win plenty of games especially with improvements to the OL and recievers. Keep those draft picks.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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My expectations for this season remain in tact. Win and I think we will regardless of who the QB is and the reason I say that is because we really haven't won a single game because of the QB play so far. They have contributed to winning but they haven't carried the team, the defense has done that and that hasn't change a bit...
I look at the season the same way. Yes, we lost Hoyer.
We still have the D
We still have ST under Tabor
We still have Josh, Davone and Jordan
We still have a coaching staff that is second to none.
We still have a shot at winning any game we play.
I'm glad the team is showing more confidence and cajones than many of its fans. I've been sick of watching the Browns give up on the season by the end of September. This team is different. This team can with with Weeden.
And no... I'm not a huge fan of his. Just thought I'd get out in front of that before anyone accused me of being 'all up in his jock.' On this board, such a thing is always possible....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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j/c
I liked the play of Hoyer over Weeden no doubt.
But I do find it funny that I don't see the fake punt and fake FG as attributing to that one win more than anything else.
And had they of failed, the outcome would most likely have been different.
Sometimes the team wins, not just the QB. And the exact same thing could be said for last weeks win.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I agree with that.
Our special teams have played a huge part in 2 of our 3 wins.
The special teams led to, or scored 10 points in the Vikings game. The run on the fake punt led to a FG, and obviously we scored a TD on the fake FG.
In the Bills game, we had that PR for the TD.
In the Ravens game, our special teams gave us very little. Benjamin averaged 4.8 yards/return on 4 punt returns. Ditto for the Bengals game. Benjamin had 1 PR for 7 yards in that game. We have had very little good come from our KR unit thus far this year in any of the games.
I hope that the team continues to grow. I hope that Weeden can make enough plays to help us win. I hope that we can run the ball well enough to win. I hope that our receivers catch the ball consistently. I hope that our special teams can continue their mostly stellar play. I hope that the KR unit improves. I hope that the defense continues its high quality play, but that they start creating more turnovers. For a unit that considers themselves elite, 4 INT in 5 games is embarrassing. They have also forced only 3 fumbles.
Elite defenses not only stop the opponent, but also turn the ball over. I want to see this defense start to create more turnovers. I know that the talent is there. We should create more turnovers, especially given the way we rush (both sacks and hits) the passer.
Interesting tidbit. We have had the lead at halftime of every game so far this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not getting into the QB debate, well, maybe, but I'd think if you are honest about it you'd have to admit that Hoyer, with his quick release and obvious ability to read coverages, looked a lot better than what we've seen from Weeden the first two games this year and all of last year.
I don't hate Weeden so bad that I just want to see someone, anyone else at QB for the Browns. I don't hate on any of our guys and am fully behind Weeden and rooting for him the rest of the way.
Neither am I some QB guru or even a plausible QB evaluator. There are just too many intricate, fundamental mechanics that I don't understand and the mental issues are far beyond me. But I know when I saw Hoyer playing I felt like I was watching him do what other good QB's on other god teams do. Play fast, get rid of the ball quickly, succeed on 3rd downs, move the chains and pilot long, TD scoring drives at the end of the half and at the end of the game.
When Weeden came in the game vs Buffalo I saw from him what I've always seen, the slow play, holding the ball too long, indecisiveness leading to late throws, taking sacks even when he has a lot of time to get rid of the ball. I saw the OC do with him in the Red Zone the same thing the OC's did with Frye in the Red Zone, feared allowing him to pass for a TD. He called pass plays for Hoyer in the same circumstances and we scored TD's.
I hope and pray Weeden improves the rest of the way. Partly because he's all we got and partly because he's my QB now and I stand fully behind him and root for him to do well. It's just that I'm afraid it's hope without faith.
I was on this board for about two weeks when I had a heated discussion with Vers for saying, "I hope I'm wrong". ([Do you even remember that Vers? lol)I chided him as I didn't understand how anyone could hope they were wrong about something. We came away friends although I don't think I ever fully understood anyone saying that.
Now I do. I hope I'm wrong about Weeden.
I've seen plenty of very good quarterbacks over the years although not on this team. Weeden has pretty much been the same as all the others who, since our return, came before DA in '07 and again after him. When I saw Hoyer play I saw great improvement over Weeden. He brought hope, excitement and the faith he could do it again and he did.
This is not because I hate Weeden, because I don't. Hoyer simply looked so much better. If Hoyer was Weeden's size and I'd mistakenly thought it was Weeden I'd have marveled at how much better he was suddenly playing.
You can't tell me you didn't see that?! You could've seen that but still think Weeden does/can do a good job given the chance with this better coaching staff and some playmakers he didn't have before and I really couldn't argue that.
We're all going to see if he can cut it. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. And it will have and should have nothing to do with who is right/wrong about him.
It will simply be what it is.
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I feel our long term plans will be decided by how this season plays out. If the team falls apart and they are picking in the top 5 to 10. If this team finishes .500 or better and the Colts are again a playoff team then they will not have enough fire power to get up into the top 5 or so picks. If they win the division that will also change things.
1) If they finsih well then I think Lombardi and the coaches will be comfortable with Hoyer as the QB. The question then is will Weeden return and do they draft a QB like AJ McCarron, Aaron Murray in the 2nd round to back up Hoyer. Do they make a run at a free agent QB? Trade for the famous Ryan Mallet finally.
2) If Weeden leads the team to the playoffs and/or an AFC North title will he remain the starter or have a QB battle with Hoyer in the off season. Do the Browns trade Weeden or Hoyer to acquire more picks. Strike while the iron is hot so to speak.
3) If the team falls apart Weeden will be gone and what franchise QB will they take to be the face of the franchise. Is there 1 QB worth trading a fortune of picks for or do they see who falls to them? I have not scene a QB like Andrew Luck yet in college this year. The best I have seen is the Freshman QB at Florida State but he will not be draft eligible this next draft.
I would also say some of the same posters who were giddy when the Browns won 2 games without Weeden and Richardson should look into the mirror and decide if they are really Browns fans. A win is a win is a win. They are precious and hard to come by in the NFL. Weeden has his flaws I agree but he did lead the team to a come from behind victory Thursday night. When he came in the team was down 10-0 and then the Bills took the lead in the 3rd quarter and again he lead the team back. There is no denying that. For the next 11 games as Browns fans we have to root for Weeden if we root for the Browns. The division is up for grabs and I think 8-8 or 9-7 will win this division so why not the Browns.
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Let's assume that Hoyer is done for the year.
If you are the Browns brass right now, have you seen enough from Hoyer to refrain from going after one of the top-tier QBs in the draft?
Or do you think the vision is to draft a top-tier QB prospect regardless how Hoyer plays and he is just a stop gap?
My feeling is that Weeden is not a part of the long term plan.
Curious what everyone thinks.
I'm still not 100% convinced that Hoyer was the long term answer. I've loved watching him play and would love to see more. But to me, at this point, if he's out for the year, you go after a prospect in the draft and keep Hoyer (if he can come back) as your #2. You dump Campbell and Trade or Cut Weeden during the off season.
That would be my plan if I had to make that decision TODAY. But Weeden may have a shot at making me rethink that depending on how he does this season. That's assuming he starts the rest of the year.
This would be my plan also.
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I'm trying to overlook and get past my deflation that Hoyer is gone for the season
We all are brother, we all know with Hoyer we had a better chance, but we can't get wrapped up in feeling sorry for ourselves....
I expect the team to work even harder and especially Weedon to keep the train rolling. There is a ton of football left to play and as long as this defense continues to perform at a high level we have a shot...
So we have to set that aside and move forward that's what I expect the team to do, and we as fans need to support that, because we really have no other choice...
Bottom line I don't expect this team will quit and we as fans need to get behind that and be supportive...
I think the team will hopefully look at this as a challenge and work to overcome and I think they can if they work hard....
BTTB
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I agree. We have won 3 straight. When was the last time we did that, and we need to understand that Weeden was a part of that.
Let's make it 4 in a row and beat the Lions.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I agree. We have won 3 straight. When was the last time we did that
Last year.
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True statement, but given how last year went I can forgive anyone who drank away that memory....
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True statement, but given how last year went I can forgive anyone who drank away that memory....
What memory?
#GMSTRONG
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I have been asking myself if Weeds could have won some of these games we won; not sure he could. And not sure why he collects sacks like Halloween candy. I haven't seen improvement in some of the most basic problems carried in from last year (and I would LOVE to see him succeed). Our long term must be to eat the losses and pray for a perfect draft and/or trade for the Man. Hoyer as basic backup tops. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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True statement, but given how last year went I can forgive anyone who drank away that memory....
What memory?
Indeed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I was stating my own feelings. You calling me a cry baby or a whiner isn't going to change them.
Brought to you by the author of the "tank this" threads
Priceless
You don't even make sense anymore.
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When Hoyer went down and Weeden came in, I will be the first to admit the doom and gloom engulfed me. I didnt think we had a prayer to win that game and that another 5 win season was coming.
I do however feel that there is an NFL quarterback in Weeden.
We all had our own personal reactions to his injury. I wasn't trying to debate w/anyone about it. It's just how I felt, but of course, Dj started his usual crap.
I pretty much agree w/your take, Mourg. I simply am not as confident as you are about Weeden being a legit NFL starter. I hope I am wrong [yeah dd, I remember  ] and I very well could be.
I don't even think Hoyer was that great, but watching him after watching Weeden, he just looked so much better. Heck, Lewis made quicker reads and better decisions in last year's final. Watching Weeden pains me. It really does.
I get infuriated when QBs hold the ball too long and don't see the field. Bothers me more than picks.
Like I said, I hope I am wrong about Weeden. We'll see how it goes.
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I honestly still am seeing the them Draft a QB this coming year.
There's a decent amount of depth in this next class that It'd be hard not to pick a guy up.
Where exactly is difficult to predict but I don't think it'll be later than the 2nd round (Could package the thirds to move up... or something)
Also need a CB, an RB and another WR... so well...
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I get infuriated when QBs hold the ball too long and don't see the field. Bothers me more than picks.
I don't know if I agree with the last part but I sure do agree with the 1st part....I would add to that I hate RB that dance as well...
But I read a piece somewhere not sure where that the O line is now more then ever put on and island and coaches will risk sacks as long as they can get big plays down the field, the theory being sacks don't hurt as much as big plays do... I can agree with that as long as the big plays don't come with less frequency then the sacks do.... It went something like that I'm not sure I have the wording right???
When I read it I of course thought of Weedon.... We are stuck with the guy and it's time to make lemon aid, it is what it is. If he can play like he did against the Bills we can win, the sacks hurt the big plays he made down the field hurt the Bills worse then the sacks he took by holding the ball.. It goes against my thinking as well Vers, but when you think about it in that light its hard not to conclude the big plays he did make hurt them worse then the sacks hurt us.... 
I hate negative plays and sacks and stupid penalties Pee me off, but the game is changing again, I guess????
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Sounds like the NFL version of "Chicks dig the long ball"..  Swing for the fence at all cost.. no need for bat control or advancing runners.. or bunting.. just keep trying to hit home runs and hope you hit more than they do... 2 on, 2 strikes, bottom of the 9th and down by 1.. don't choke up and put the ball in play, try to hit a home run.. if you strike out, oh well, get 'em tomorrow.
yebat' Putin
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Well when you see the guy throw the ball 40 yards down the field and hit on a few of those it sure goes a long way towards making up for the sacks it also explains why Weedon takes 4 seconds to throw the ball and Hoyer 3...
I prefer Hoyer's game and a slow and steady approach to all or nothing, but we are stuck with the all or nothing.. I know this too the guy actually throws a nice enough long ball and man if he can string a few together like he did against the Bills its bing bang your in the end zone its the rest of the time that you want to poke your eyes out and your horse from yelling throw the ball, get rid of it, oh Jesus not another sack that kills ya.
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I prefer a guy who can throw the ball 50 yards down the field with a flick of his wrist. I like a guy who can put the fear of God into a defense on every play, and who makes the defense go "Oh crap!" anytime he launches the ball deep down the field.
That's not Weeden. Not yet anyway. Will it be? Who knows? I still have hope. I don't think that he'll be able to do enough to remain the starter next year .... but maybe he can have a miraculous transformation.
Regardless, that's the style of football I prefer. Obviously the guy has to be able to march the team down the field methodically as well ..... but I want a guy who can hit a big play from anywhere on the field.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I tend to like the QBs that have that almost 6th sense about everything...
They understand how long they have in the pocket. The WRs are so on point with the QB that it's like they communicate telepathically. And it's not so much about arm strength as much as it's about being accurate without thinking about it.
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I tend to like the QBs that have that almost 6th sense about everything...
They understand how long they have in the pocket. The WRs are so on point with the QB that it's like they communicate telepathically. And it's not so much about arm strength as much as it's about being accurate without thinking about it.
This quality along with accuracy is what really makes QBs effective ... look at Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers ... they all are intelligent, can maneuver the pocket, and are very accurate.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Legend
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Posts: 28,201 |
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look at Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers
It is also very ELITE company.
QB's come and go in this league. Upper tier QB's come and go. That list right there never really changes .... the most recent change being Rodgers ascending after Favre left the Packers in after '07. That is a looooong time ago; it is a lifetime in the Not For Long league. Not even Eli gets put into that list.
Everybody loves to look at those guys as the model of what you want, but the reality is that those guys are totally the exception and in a class of rarefied air by themselves because they got to that level and have stayed there. Anybody else even approaching their levels has been a tumbleweed simply blowing through that neighborhood.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,097
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,097 |
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Anybody else even approaching their levels has been a tumbleweed simply blowing through that neighborhood.
...and some of those tumbleweeds have rings...
There is enough parity in this league that you can still win with guys like Flacco and Eli. A 'magic season' still happens occasionally, and well-assembled team will still consistently get you the tournament. From there, it's anybody's chance (any given Sat/Sun). It's easier with an elite QB, but not impossible with a 2nd-tier QB.
Neither QB in last year's SB is what I'd consider 'elite.'
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Absolutely! It is a TEAM sport.
The QB position is important, but by no means does it EVER stand on its own.... especially in a championship.
The one-loss-and-you're-out nature of the sport means that a football team in the playoffs just needs to catch a little bit of magic to make it to the Promised Land.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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I prefer a guy who can throw the ball 50 yards down the field with a flick of his wrist. I like a guy who can put the fear of God into a defense on every play, and who makes the defense go "Oh crap!" anytime he launches the ball deep down the field.
The two most important attributes of a QB that I want are brains and accuracy across the spectrum of throws.. Don't care if he's 6'5", don't care if he's 240, don't care if he can run a 4.5, don't care if he can palm a watermelon, don't care if he can throw it through a brick wall or throw it 70 yards from his knees... you could take Peyton Manning's brain and accuracy and put in any body type you want and he's still going to be a heck of a QB...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Definitely, Intelligence, accuracy and leadership are vital for a QB. All things being equal, though, I prefer a guy who can zip the ball on all throws, as opposed to the guy who lobs it to his receivers. I prefer a guy who can get the ball through small windows, and who can also make the defense have to defend deep on every single play. I prefer the gunslinger type to the guy who has trouble throwing an out because he just can't generate enough speed to get the ball there safely.
I always like guys like Jim Kelly, John Elway (I know, but I am talking capability and ability) and Dan Marino ... guys who could throw a TD pass from anywhere on the field.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
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The QB position is important, but by no means does it EVER stand on its own....
I think that Tony Romo would very likely agree with you...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
All things being equal,
Well of course if all other things are equal, I want the better physical specimen with the canon arm as well...
but if I have to give up something, I'm giving up some throwing velocity before I give up brains and decision making.. in a heartbeat.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
All things being equal,
Well of course if all other things are equal, I want the better physical specimen with the canon arm as well...
but if I have to give up something, I'm giving up some throwing velocity before I give up brains and decision making.. in a heartbeat.
Exactly.
See Hoyer, Brian and Weeden, Brandon.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Brains and accuracy are more important than arm strength and it isn't close.
I think some of you are deluding yourself that Weeds will ever be good enough to be a Super Bowl QB.
I get the hope. I get that you like him. I am not bad-mouthing you. I just don't think he has enough in his game to ever be that kind of guy.
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