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Eight weeks ago...two weeks ago...today...and after the season ends Eight Weeks ago (approx. meaning the start of TC):We thought we needed a QB, CB2+, FS, WR2, G, TE2, FB No one - except maybe me  - thought Skrine would work out at CB2. We cringed our minds over Gipson. We couldn't get a finger on Weeden. We thought we were set at G, but knew we needed to get stronger there. We heard how much Little was working and were pissed that Gordon would miss the first two weeks.. We brought in some TEs and wondered why Marecic was still in the NFL. Two weeks ago:We started to think we might be ok at CB2. We saw that Gipson was coming along. We suddenly had Kurt Warner at QB. The Browns had me in for a look-see at G. Little looked like he did at the start of last year. Cameron looks like a stud and Barnidge looks like a capable TE2. Oby is our FB and Marecic is in San Fran.. Today:Skrine looks fine at CB2 although we need to upgrade Owens to CB4. Owens has looked better these past two weeks. Skrine is a little guy who can hit. Gipson has come far-enough along to make us NOT want J Byrd and we are seeing what Jauron and Horton BOTH saw in him. Another little guy who can hit. Kurt Warner blew out his knee and Weeden is back at QB1. We have no idea if Hoyer or Weeden can be "the guy" going forward. Feels like Groundhog Day. Lavauo returned and we did not play the Purple People Eaters DL and our G play looked ok. Cousins became unnoticed the week before Lava returned. We still can't run block very well, but we sure ran the ball a lot last Thurs...which was nice. Little looked a little better after a "benching". We still aren't confident that he can be our WR2. Cameron is looking more studly and my 18 year old daughter wants to marry him. I'm actually ok with that. Barnidge is a pleasant surprise and a former QB turned TE3 is playing FB while Obi is out with a head. Fair enough? Now, what will we be thinking at the end of the year?CB2 - We'll still likely need a CB3. With the way our guys are progressing, maybe McFadden comes on? I think we will still want a CB3 who is almost CB2 quality. FS - I think we will be fine here. I'm actually likely to be more worried about SS. I like Aubrey and have hope for Slaughter. QB - We are going to draft our favorite guy who is there at one of our picks. No trade ups...probably with our 1st 1st. We will agonize over Hoyer's return and still wonder whether Weeden can be the guy. G - We need a stud here. It is the one thing not called QB that this offense needs. Especially if we don't re-sign Mack...which I would dislike. I won't be surprised if we go here with our 2nd 1st. WR - Little is what he is. We need an upgrade and move Little to #3/4/5. We will spend a high pick on a guy here. TE - We look good here but need to upgrade Barnidge to TE3. We have 2 3rds and 2 4ths right? Sounds like a TE2 that could become TE1 quality. FB - Who knows? Oby? Grey? ILB - We need to think quickly about a replacement for DQ who can be groomed for a year or two ala Mingo. RB - We will look forward to Dion Lewis coming back and pick a new guy in the draft. DL - We don't need a thing here...just leave it alone. With (2) 1sts, a 2nd, (2) 3rds, (2) 4ths, and a 5,6,7 we are in GREAT shape to improve the roster. I don't think we have (10) guys to replace...so a good player will be cut/traded/released etc. Good Lord...that was enjoyable to think about.
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What do we need?
QB (I'll take this over anything and everything else)
WR2 (assuming we keep Gordon and he stays clean)
OG (or OT if we move Schwartz to RG)
CB2 (I like Buster as a slot CB, but he has shown improvement)
ILB (We need depth here BADLY ... DQ and Robertson play every snap)
FS (Gipson has shown some promise, but we need help here IMO)
K (We need a young guy to groom and call our own)
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I love that Skrine has stepped up, but I still want another corner, if for nothing else than depth.
I still want a QB next year with one/both of our firsts. Get it done. I don't care what happens the rest of this year, short of winning the SB, draft someone that you think fits perfectly into your scheme.
I think we can all agree we need to draft a guard on the first/second day.
Would love another receiver, especially if Little flounders the rest of the year.
I think other than that, you are looking at depth picks, which is pretty cool.
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We might be looking for a Center at the end of this season. I hope not, but it's possible.
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All Pro
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QB - We are going to draft our favorite guy who is there at one of our picks. No trade ups...probably with our 1st 1st. We will agonize over Hoyer's return and still wonder whether Weeden can be the guy.
This will all depend on who declares at the end of the year and where we are drafting. If Banbardi, wants someone badly enough, I see them trading up to get their guy. I honestly believe this front office will go "all in" to get the guy of the future. This team has struggled for too long to settle what falls into their lap. They are laying the ground to be aggressive and get their QB of the future. JMHO.
And the next head coach is ......
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I love that Skrine has stepped up, but I still want another corner, if for nothing else than depth.
a BIG +1
And as good as Cameron has been, it's all for nothing if Weeden won't target him more. It seemed like Hoyer was able to focus on Gordon and Cameron and feed them over and over again (they ARE our playmakers). I don't know if Weeden doesn't get through his progressions, won't take a chance or something I'm not seeing. Good QBs find a way to get it to their playmakers. Heck, watch Cutler for one quarter, he practically forces the ball into Brandon Marshall's hands every other play.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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We might be looking for a Center at the end of this season. I hope not, but it's possible.
Yeah, that's definitely possible. I think things will work out between him and the Browns but that would be a tough break to have to go and find/groom a center.
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We might be looking for a Center at the end of this season. I hope not, but it's possible.
+1 We have some guys we have to re-sign
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What do we need?
QB (I'll take this over anything and everything else)
WR2 (assuming we keep Gordon and he stays clean)
OG (or OT if we move Schwartz to RG)
CB2 (I like Buster as a slot CB, but he has shown improvement)
ILB (We need depth here BADLY ... DQ and Robertson play every snap)
FS (Gipson has shown some promise, but we need help here IMO)
K (We need a young guy to groom and call our own)
I'm just curious: what do some of you guys see in Schwartz that makes you think he'll be a good RG?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I just see his lateral movement as a deficiency. He is not very quick and can get beat by very athletic/quick DE's (which most of them are). Not to mention our FO has hinted at wanting to upgrade RT (which would clearly indicate they feel Schwartz would be very effective as a RG).
Personally, I like the idea of keeping Mack and Greco where they are (Mack would need to be resigned obviously) and drafting a RT/RG (whichever is available at a good place of value) and then placing Schwartz accordingly
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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We haven't really faced a lot of good O's with two good WR's. So to me, while I like the progress we've seen in the secondary, I feel it's far too early to say we're "set" at FS or CB2.
I just believe we are a very long way from knowing what we do or don't have. At the end of the season we will know. What we have seen thus far is a very small sample against teams that have been injured and weak.
I'm very hopeful that what we've seen is a sign of things to come from many positions. But I'm not willing to state anything factual in that regard based on five games.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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(which would clearly indicate they feel Schwartz would be very effective as a RG).
no, it means they want to trade him
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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QB, RT, G, CB, WR X2, RB, ILB
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Two good games, an AVG one and two bad ones is what I've seen from Skrine, overall that grades out at AVG, which is ok, but far from settled yet. He needs to become more consistent, but I still maintain that his best value is as CB3, spot starting CB2, that's what he is imho. If Haden would miss games, Skrine is not the CB I want to cover the likes of Megatron, AJ Green on every snap etc, so I'd prefer a bigger, physical outside CB2 who has CB1 upside...that's the way I see it. Skrine in many ways is like Little at WR2, but has played better overall, but both those guys really struggle if forced to be the top guy at their depth chart and both guys would look better as the no3, while being AVG or below AVG no2 players. I think it's the expectation level that distorts their game evaluation more than anything, as many had high hopes for Little, and not much for Skrine. One is playing "better than expected" and vice versa, but to me they have about the same value and upside to the team now and going forward.
As for Gipson, he's another guy that has played "better than expected", but I'd still call his game below league AVG at FS. He's somewhat slipstreaming imho. Our D has many good and above AVG performers, so he's covered up by their play. He's still late to the action a lot and does not ave great instincts or playmaking ability. He plays it safe most of the time, as the last line of defense. He's a pretty good hitter for a FS though, I'll give him that. Overall, I don't think he has much of a ceiling left unless he develops his instincts vs the pass with reps and experience, we will see.
That said, the needs as of now are (as in positions we are below AVG at):
QB
FB
RB
WR2
TE2
OG
ILB2
CB2
FS
K
There's still some work left to do, although there do not exist teams who don't have some below AVG play at some stating position, so the list looks longer than it really is and some are backup positions and K and FBs should not be high cost. Really urgent needs are only QB, RB, FB, WR2 and FS imho
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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You consider Robertson below average?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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We really need to think about 2015 as much as what we need now/2014. We have a ton of talent that is on the block to leave. we need to sign as many this offseason as we can and figure out who won't resign. draft their backups as well as filling holes from this year.
our 2014 FA are:
Alex Mack need to resign
TJ Ward need to resign
Lava need to resign
Cousins replace
Owens replace
McGahee replace
Jarrod Shaw replace
Robertson need to resign
Condiff replace
Butler replace
Rainey eh..
2015
Haden need to extend
Rubin extend
Taylor extend
Sheard extend
Campbell replace
Little eh...
Cameron extend
Dion Lewis extend
Groves extend
Pinkston extend
Hoyer extend
Kitchen eh...
Badamosi extend
Obi eh.. depends on how we use him
Lanning extend ( so far)
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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You consider Robertson below average?
No, not at all, my bad. I labled him the unsung hero of the D after the Bills game, so far from it.
With ILB2 I meant backup, since DQ does not get younger and the depth at a 2 starter position is really, really thin with an UDFA rook and Carder. Also, Robertson will be a FA too I think after this season, although we hold the rights (ERFA) so some kind of tender offer will probably do the trick for one more season
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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We might be looking for a Center at the end of this season. I hope not, but it's possible.
Of all the guys that I hope we extend or resign, for some reason I don't care either way with Mack. Resign him, great. If not, draft his replacement, sign one in FA, or move Greco over and get an upgrade at G. Not to sound too flippant as if those moves are easy...but I really don't care if we resign him...especially if we have to lose at least one body.
Extending Ward and Haden need to be priorities, IMO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't know. The center's role is more than just snapping the ball and blocking. He's usually the one to call the blocking assignments and should have the respect of the rest of the line. It's not like you can just throw anyone into that role.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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It's going to be interesting and will stir-up a lot of debate. One thing is for certain, guys like Dj will wait until we make a move and then criticize it unmercifully. Others will defend the moves no matter what.
I will speak before they make the moves. I would resign Mack. No, he isn't great, but he is a solid player who made enough decent calls for us to have a good pass protecting line. I actually think TJ Ward is the guy on the bubble. I believe he needs a BIG year to be retained. I think he is terrible in coverage. No way do I give him big dollars unless he shows a lot of improvement in that area.
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I'm with you on both Mack and Ward.
I hope Ward beasts in this new D...but I don't think he will. (As I alluded to above.)
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I agree that Ward isn't great in coverage but he's damn good everywhere else. That play he made Thurs night was a big time professional football play.
Your first post claims we are solid at CB2 yet he still doesn't know how to get his turned around on routine plays and gets beat too often for my liking. Yeah Skrine is a nice story and he is a little improved, but you want to dump Ward and claim Skrine is good to go. That's just nuts.
I think people confuse improvement with good play.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Btw-------------good thread. You put a lot of thought into this. I don't agree w/everything, but I respect how you went about it. I'll comment later when I am more sober. 
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Quote:
You consider Robertson below average?
No, not at all, my bad. I labled him the unsung hero of the D after the Bills game, so far from it.
With ILB2 I meant backup, since DQ does not get younger and the depth at a 2 starter position is really, really thin with an UDFA rook and Carder. Also, Robertson will be a FA too I think after this season, although we hold the rights (ERFA) so some kind of tender offer will probably do the trick for one more season
Roger that.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Ward is actually above AVG in coverage for a SS and a pretty darn good player vs the run. He's one of the most complete SS around the league. It's pretty much acknolwedged by most NFL analysis sites I know, but there are still some Browns "fans" that try to criticize him because he doesn't play two positions. They seem to want him to cover both S spots and make up for the perennial bad FS play we have had. I didn't forget how much worse we looked when Ward missed the 2nd half of 2011.
I'd like to re-sign Haden, Ward and then Mack (and feeding the troll: said so multiple times already)..in that order. If Mack wants top 3 C money, I'd let him go. If it falls in the 5th-10th range I'd re-sign him.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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RB
Forgot about this. I think our hand is forced to go and get someone next year.
Man it would be nice if we could find our guy at QB with only that first pick we have, and then between the second first rounder and that second third rounder, find our RB.
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I agree that Ward isn't great in coverage but he's damn good everywhere else. That play he made Thurs night was a big time professional football play.
Your first post claims we are solid at CB2 yet he still doesn't know how to get his turned around on routine plays and gets beat too often for my liking. Yeah Skrine is a nice story and he is a little improved, but you want to dump Ward and claim Skrine is good to go. That's just nuts.
I think people confuse improvement with good play.
Ward is worse in coverage than just "not great". I could overlook that aspect if he would hit AND WRAP UP. Gipson and Skrine are better run-stoppers than Ward. Isn't run support in the box a big part of the SS job in this defense? BTW: That's an honest question. I'm not trying to being a smart donkey.
I notice Gipson much, much more than Ward. If he wants top 10 SS $$$ I'm not likely to re-sign him. Paying him like a top 10 SS would be nuts.
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Your first post claims we are solid at CB2 yet he still doesn't know how to get his turned around on routine plays and gets beat too often for my liking.
I could say that exact same thing about Haden. And no...I'm not saying they are equal. But if THAT is the primary complaint about Skrine's play, then I'd say we now have a solid CB2. Do the Bangles, Rats, or Stoolers have a better CB2?
Skrine was a 5th round pick from a school that many didn't even know had a football program. This is his third year...he is showing the exact kind of improvement that we hope to get from guys in their 3rd year.
He was our #4 CB last year and ended up playing as our #1 against Dallas. He got beat and he made mistakes...no shame in that.
By the end of this year, I think most will see him as a solid CB2.
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Ward is actually above AVG in coverage for a SS and a pretty darn good player vs the run. He's one of the most complete SS around the league.
We will have to agree to disagree on the coverage grading. The most complete SS's in the league are better than "pretty darn good players vs the run". I rarely notice the guy for being such a great SS.
I'm willing to keep him...but he's not worth top 10 $$$.
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It's pretty much acknolwedged by most NFL analysis sites I know, but there are still some Browns "fans" that try to criticize him because he doesn't play two positions.
Many NFL analysts don't know much more than we do and push the party line. Some Browns "fans" criticize him because he needs to play better and wrap up when he hits someone...and don't think he's worth the big bucks.
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They seem to want him to cover both S spots and make up for the perennial bad FS play we have had. I didn't forget how much worse we looked when Ward missed the 2nd half of 2011.
I guess we will see as it appears Gipson is going to be - at least - average. Ward finished off the game against the Bills...so maybe we will see a much better SS now. If he doesn't shine this year and wants big $$$, he's gone in my mind.
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I'd like to re-sign Haden, Ward and then Mack (and feeding the troll: said so multiple times already)..in that order. If Mack wants top 3 C money, I'd let him go. If it falls in the 5th-10th range I'd re-sign him.
Keep the personal attacks alive...nice work. Too bad...because I agree with your assessment except I sign Ward also with limitations on how much $$$.
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I would definitely try to resign Mack.. but like with everybody else, he has to accept money that is commensurate with his ability, which is very good but not elite. If he wants elite money, then you might have to let him go.
I like the idea of keeping this line together for a while and adding pieces instead of constantly shifting pieces around. I'd love to add one (or two in my dream world) good run blocking OGs in the next offseason. I like Lauvao and I like Pinkston but this seems to be a position where we need depth every year and don't have much...
yebat' Putin
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I'd like to re-sign Haden, Ward and then Mack (and feeding the troll: said so multiple times already)..in that order. If Mack wants top 3 C money, I'd let him go. If it falls in the 5th-10th range I'd re-sign him.
That is my order preference as well, however, the timing may not align with said order as Haden has one more year left on his contract. Perhaps Banner will seek to get him under a contract extension with still a year remaining..I think that would be smart. His value so far has increased each year he's been in the league, IMO. Might as well take a chance and get him locked up sooner rather than later in case his value continues to move upward. Also, we have the money now and this upcoming offseason w/ roughly $30M in space. Who knows where we will be after next year financially and how that equates to Haden's value at that time. So many things can happen.
Tons of difficult decisions in the next 18 months or so w/ tons of players coming off their first contracts (Rubin, his second) and where to allocate money. This regime has, albeit one offseason, showed to play their hand in FA with large contracts (Bryant and Kruger plus the rumors of liking Ben Tate for next offseason), plus two first-round pick $$ if we use both of them.
I guess what I am trying to say is we won't be able to sign everyone (both this year and next), but I'm sure that is not a shock to anyone. If I could have two of the three, I would consider that a success. But in my perfect world the two would be Haden and Ward. I think it would be easier to replace Mack than the other two.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Keeping good players under contract is a nice problem to have (finally).
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Keeping good players under contract is a nice problem to have (finally).
Amen.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Keeping good players under contract is a nice problem to have (finally).
Yup.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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It is hilarious that people have this view of Ward as an average player. He is a top five strong safety in the league by every available metric.
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His value so far has increased each year he's been in the league, IMO. Might as well take a chance and get him locked up sooner rather than later in case his value continues to move upward.
As the defense continues to get better overall, and if the team continues to win some games, the key individuals will be seen as more valuable and his price tag will go up.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288
Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288 |
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It is hilarious that people have this view of Ward as an average player. He is a top five strong safety in the league by every available metric.
In what area is he "special"? Metrics? Ok...I don't look at those...but I watch a lot of NFL games. However, I'm a lousy x's & o's guy...so help me out here. Seriously.
I have every game on tape and have watched each game twice...some more than twice. Tell me what I am missing.
I understand he's in the d backfield...so the camera isn't on him much...but that's one of my points...the camera isn't on him much.
I was at the opener and he did not impress me...although I think he got dinged and missed some time. I was at the Bills game but did not really notice him until the pick-6...which was classic SS play to me...very nice to see. I don't really remember ever seeing that from him previously though.
I don't see anywhere near top 5 SS for impact.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
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It is hilarious that people have this view of Ward as an average player. He is a top five strong safety in the league by every available metric.
The older people see what they want to see. It's why eventually with the younger generation getting older that numbers will hopefully replace the eye ball test. Granted there will still be some egos holding on for nastalgia purposes.
Numbers are not flawed, the people that don't know how to use them are.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 688
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 688 |
maybe the older ones see why stats are misleading?
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194 |
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maybe the older ones see why stats are misleading?
Well of course not!
You know as well as I do that everything can be solved with stats!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959 |
Quote:
Quote:
It is hilarious that people have this view of Ward as an average player. He is a top five strong safety in the league by every available metric.
The older people see what they want to see. It's why eventually with the younger generation getting older that numbers will hopefully replace the eye ball test. Granted there will still be some egos holding on for nastalgia purposes.
Numbers are not flawed, the people that don't know how to use them are.
That might well be one of the dumbest posts ever 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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