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when Savage was hired it was (I believe) only 6 months prior to his first draft - he didn't have time to have his scout team fully in place and on the same page (this was documented in many articles). I think it's still too ealry to judge.
Only freaking thing U said that is accurate, that you didn't try to use any stats to back it up with.
I now declare that "6 months" is a stat 
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Just one thing to remember as you judge Savage's 1st draft. He was really short sheeted on the prep time for that draft. If his 1st draft is poor it may be secondary to lack of time to adequately prepare. If his 1st draft is a huge success it may just be dumb luck.
So while this 1st draft class may be an early indicator, his second draft will give us a much truer look into his drafting abilities.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Just one thing to remember as you judge Savage's 1st draft. He was really short sheeted on the prep time for that draft. If his 1st draft is poor it may be secondary to lack of time to adequately prepare. If his 1st draft is a huge success it may just be dumb luck.
So while this 1st draft class may be an early indicator, his second draft will give us a much truer look into his drafting abilities.
I dont necessarily buy that line of thinking,,, because even before we hired him he was still preparing for the draft with the Ravens. Its not like he didnt start looking at players until he came here.
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Just one thing to remember as you judge Savage's 1st draft. He was really short sheeted on the prep time for that draft. If his 1st draft is poor it may be secondary to lack of time to adequately prepare. If his 1st draft is a huge success it may just be dumb luck.
So while this 1st draft class may be an early indicator, his second draft will give us a much truer look into his drafting abilities.
I dont necessarily buy that line of thinking,,, because even before we hired him he was still preparing for the draft with the Ravens. Its not like he didnt start looking at players until he came here.
2 completely different teams with completely different needs and different philosophies. Savage doesn't scout the players all himself - it takes a TEAM of scouts all on the same page.
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He brought his philosophies here remember. So any grades they used to assign first round players, second round players etc did not change when he came here, Maybe the focus was a little different due to team needs. But the players were graded nonetheless. Thats what they do,, its not as if they ignore players they might not need. I still call it as BS that he did not have time to prep. He knew Cleveland as well as we did being a division opponent,,, I dont buy that there were any surprises for him coming here.
His first pick was Braylon,,, and WR was a Baltimore need.
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Um, 6 months out from the draft means there's a lot to look at. One guy can't breakdown 350+ guys on his own. Believe what you want, but one way to read what you are saying is "Savage doesn't need a scout team - he can do it all himself."
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So your saying he didnt have a scout team in Baltimore? That they hadnt bothered looking at the players before he came here?
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I would agree except that the needs of the team were different so he may not have been as prepared as he was last year simply because he was evaluating different needs for a different team.
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I would agree except that the needs of the team were different so he may not have been as prepared as he was last year simply because he was evaluating different needs for a different team.
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Side note - when Savage was hired it was (I believe) only 6 months prior to his first draft - he didn't have time to have his scout team fully in place and on the same page (this was documented in many articles). I think it's still too ealry to judge. You can easily see the impact last years draft had in a short time - which was his first draft with the scout team all on the same page and with the same focus. Just wanted to interject that. Carry on.
I'd have to agree with you on that.. One word of caution, he did have the benefit of having reviewed a lot of candidates while with the Ravens, so it's not like he himself was unaware of the current crop of players coming out.. but as for him not having his scouts in place and on the same page,,yeah, I can see that.
Good catch!
Last edited by Damanshot; 04/09/07 11:36 AM.
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Vers,,, why so upset,, I don't think it was you I was quoting there...,, Why are you so anxious to attack someone..
What are you talking about? I wasn't upset at all. And I sure as hell wasn't attacking you. You misread me all the time.
Just for the record, I didn't take it that way.
Daman, discussing the QB issues are valid, but we're on something like 5 or 6 different QB threads in two different forums. Even me with my longwindedness is having a hard time stomaching the flood of threads.
Now this isn't to say that I'm irked at posters. Far from it. It's truly a case of all the writers having their own takes which are coming together in this one forum. Oversaturation at it's worst.
Then again, there HAVE been a couple of threads that were started that could have easily gone into one of these threads. Talk of the O-line versus QB production doesn't need it's own thread.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Um, 6 months out from the draft means there's a lot to look at. One guy can't breakdown 350+ guys on his own. Believe what you want, but one way to read what you are saying is "Savage doesn't need a scout team - he can do it all himself."
What was he doing in Baltimore? Playing chess?
I realise he didn't have a "full year here" in advance to his first draft,but isn't that why we hired him? Because of his experience at scouting talent?
Are you trying to imply he hadn't been scouting that senior class well in advance of coming here? I don't think this theory holds water at all.
And secondly,Baltimore IS our division rival and we play twice a year. (ok,I'm overstating the obvious here) but are you trying to say because we are a "different team,different situation" that Savage wasn't FULLY aware of our strengths and weaknesses? Is that what you're trying to imply? That we hired a guy who has no idea as to the strength and weakness of his division rivals?
Now don't get me wrong,I'm not saying it had zero impact. But if you are indicating he didn't have a firm grasp of the talent in that draft class BEFORE he came here,I find that absurd at best.His job in Baltimore was evaluating talent. He had been doing that for six months BEFORE he came here!
And he was fully aware of our glaring needs all along. So let's not make more out of it than is there.
JMHO
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Um, 6 months out from the draft means there's a lot to look at. One guy can't breakdown 350+ guys on his own. Believe what you want, but one way to read what you are saying is "Savage doesn't need a scout team - he can do it all himself."
What was he doing in Baltimore? Playing chess?
I realise he didn't have a "full year here" in advance to his first draft,but isn't that why we hired him? Because of his experience at scouting talent?
Are you trying to imply he hadn't been scouting that senior class well in advance of coming here? I don't think this theory holds water at all.
And secondly,Baltimore IS our division rival and we play twice a year. (ok,I'm overstating the obvious here) but are you trying to say because we are a "different team,different situation" that Savage wasn't FULLY aware of our strengths and weaknesses? Is that what you're trying to imply? That we hired a guy who has no idea as to the strength and weakness of his division rivals?
Now don't get me wrong,I'm not saying it had zero impact. But if you are indicating he didn't have a firm grasp of the talent in that draft class BEFORE he came here,I find that absurd at best.His job in Baltimore was evaluating talent. He had been doing that for six months BEFORE he came here!
And he was fully aware of our glaring needs all along. So let's not make more out of it than is there.
JMHO
He had a grasp on what he wanted - but his scout team wasn't on the same page. We can all agree that he's smart and had a grasp on the draft - but I know it takes more than one guy to evaluate talent. His first real draft with all he needed in place was last year. I'm just saying judging him solely on his first draft isn't all that fair - draft 2 is when he had everything in place he needed and wanted. It takes a while to get a business plan in place and rolling. His real draft to run smooth was #2.
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While he may have been helping to scout that year's Draft class, I highly doubt that he had in-depth knowledge of our roster beyond whomever was getting ready to be available in the coming free agency. As an opponent, it wouldn't have been his job to know our roster... that would be the guys making game plans, their coaches. His focus would have been "who is coming available that we can use?". That would be a mighty short list of names coming from Cleveland that he would even bother with.
I'm sure he had that "view from 10,000 feet" type knowledge, but not enough to fully understand how deficient we were... much less how what we have would translate to the new schemes.
That draft was all about 'just take what ya think is best because anything has got to be an upgrade over what we have and spend the coming season fully evaluating what we end up with'
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What was he doing in Baltimore? Playing chess?
Pit, if anything Savage was probably looking at the Draft in a different light..
When he was with Baltimore, they had a completely different set of needs than Cleveland. When he got here and looked at our roster, he probably 1st had a heart attack then second, set out to plan the moves..
Different moves than he was planning for in Baltimore..
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Well,I disagree to a point. Are you saying that the Ravens are so disfunctional.that one of their top 2 talent evaluaters that watched us play twice a year didn't know and couldn't see our glaring weaknesses?
You see,I'm not trying to say that him only having six months here didn't have "some" impact. It just seems that some seem to believe it had more of an impact than I percieve that it did.
Believe me,I know fans of our division rivals that can sit and explain most of our glaring weaknesses to me. Draft sites and mocks can tell you our glaring weaknesses. Therefore,I would find it rather naive of me to think that Phil didn't have a pretty firm grasp of that coming in here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Well,I disagree to a point. Are you saying that the Ravens are so disfunctional.that one of their top 2 talent evaluaters that watched us play twice a year didn't know and couldn't see our glaring weaknesses?
You see,I'm not trying to say that him only having six months here didn't have "some" impact. It just seems that some seem to believe it had more of an impact than I percieve that it did.
Believe me,I know fans of our division rivals that can sit and explain most of our glaring weaknesses to me. Draft sites and mocks can tell you our glaring weaknesses. Therefore,I would find it rather naive of me to think that Phil didn't have a pretty firm grasp of that coming in here.
I get your point and you have a good point. What you are missing htough is that his SCOUT team wasn't able to be prepared on what it takes for their plan. They weren't all ready to know the complete nuances of switching to a 3-4 and what to really study on the players - essentially, the BROWNS draft philosophy changed. He knew where we needed upgraded - but his ideas and what needs looked for weren't able to be conveyed to his staff as of yet. Look at this past draft - at first glance of these guys - it was a genius draft. Jackson, Wimbley and Williams all played amazing and learned a lot. He showed his staff seems to have the knowledge base and a great direction. Phil had to evaluate talent on our own team as well as what was there in the draft - the scouts just had to look at the draft - so the scout team is what was handcuffed- make sense?
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Pit, if anything Savage was probably looking at the Draft in a different light..
When he was with Baltimore, they had a completely different set of needs than Cleveland. When he got here and looked at our roster, he probably 1st had a heart attack then second, set out to plan the moves....
So he didn't use BPA in Baltimore? Since they had "fewer needs" he didn't have the option of looking at all the available talent in the upcoming draft? He completly ignored BPA and wasn't evaluating ALL of the available talent in that draft?
See,I find it rather amusing how you guys can claim he uses "due dilligence" HERE,but then claim he didn't follow that same strategy in Baltimore. Because that surely sounds like that's what some are suggesting is it not?
What other perspective is there accept for evaluating ALL the top players in any draft and ranking them by BPA?
And once again.we play the Ravens twice a year. Are you suggesting he didn't have a clue as to what he was walking into before hand?
Is he the brilliant guy who ses "due dilligence" and is very astute at grading ALL talent? Or does he wear a dunce cap and walk into major career moves completly unaware of the situation before he does so?
Which Phil is he today?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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As much as I wish they are dysfunctional, no that is not what I am saying. Though it's rather crafty of you to insinuate that if he DOESN'T know that stuff, that that indeed makes them dysfunctional.... when that would not be true at all IMO.
What I am saying is that he would not have had the same level of knowledge of our roster as he would have of his own. There would be zero need for him to.
What I am saying is that HE didn't play us twice a year, the Coaches did.
He wouldn't have had anything to do with it except to see how his own guys were doing and whatever guys we had that would be hitting FA in the coming offseason were doing and whether or not they might be worth going after. Finally, he was the Director.... He would have had Scouts doing much of that for him.
Would he have had knowledge? Absolutely. Would he have had the level of knowledge he had of his own team? Definitely Not. Add in the scheme changes that we didn't know how anyone was going to respond to and that even further compounds how cloudy the picture of our true needs was.
And it wasn't 6 months, it was about 3-1/2 months (last I checked, early january to mid april is only about 3-1/2 months, not 6) is what he had to prepare... and hire a staff, and organize the scouts (remember all of that??).
He's running a business, not being Superman.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Once again Soup,it sounds as though you feel Phil came into this without a plan already in place. Like he mad a major career move without having the facts in front of him. Without knowing our needs. Without being able to put a plan in place before the draft.
IMO- That would be pure foolishness on his part. And we just heard from one of those scouts in an article posted here not long ago.From what I gathered,they are pretty much told what to scout and where to scout. So it would seem as though once given their assignments,they go do their job.
So are you suggesting Phil simply didn't know what to tell is scouts to do? What our needs really were? He just jumped into this job without a clue?
I just don't see it that way. Once again,I'm sure it had "some" effect,but not to the extent some wish to make it sound IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Once again Soup,it sounds as though you feel Phil came into this without a plan already in place. Like he mad a major career move without having the facts in front of him. Without knowing our needs. Without being able to put a plan in place before the draft.
IMO- That would be pure foolishness on his part. And we just heard from one of those scouts in an article posted here not long ago.From what I gathered,they are pretty much told what to scout and where to scout. So it would seem as though once given their assignments,they go do their job.
So are you suggesting Phil simply didn't know what to tell is scouts to do? What our needs really were? He just jumped into this job without a clue?
I just don't see it that way. Once again,I'm sure it had "some" effect,but not to the extent some wish to make it sound IMO
He did have a plan - the place we aren't connectng though - it takes time to implement a plan and get everyone on the same page.
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What I am saying is that he would not have had the same level of knowledge of our roster as he would have of his own. There would be zero need for him to.
What I am saying is that HE didn't play us twice a year, the Coaches did.
So a "top flight NFL talent evaluater" who works for Baltimore,can't see our glaring needs based on playing us twice a year? He can't see this? Is that what you're implying?
And that their coaches and head of scouting don't communicate on a game in and game out basis? That he was "just a scout" and outside of that,he didn't have a clue? That's our General Manager?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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He did have a plan - the place we aren't connectng though - it takes time to implement a plan and get everyone on the same page.
What "page" are you talking about?
Phil; I want you to go to "insert universities here" and scout players W,x,y,and z. Then go to "inset universities here" and look at players a,b,c,and d. Here's what I'm looking for and want evaluated in these players. "add explanation of skill set here"
Scout; Okay boss.
It's really pretty simple actually. Phil had the facts on draftees and had been studying them. He had a pretty good idea of our needs coming in. He knows what he's looking for in players. So you tell your scouts what you want,what to look for and who to look at.
Otherwise,we hired the wrong guy.
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WOW,,, you are really reaching on what I said aren't you,,, Ok Let me be specific with you,.. perhaps this will help.. Phil didn't have the entire football organization under his control in Baltimore, Phil had pieces and parts of the talent aquisition process he was reponsible for.. Now think about how many more duties he became responsible for when he got here in Jan of that year. Heck, he didn't have a coach,, he didn't know his coaching staff and had no idea who should stay or go. Tell you what,,that right there is a full time job. It's not just the method of drafting,, it's not just the idea of who the BPA is (which by the way is beginning to prove that it's not as simple as BPA,, it's BPA as it relates to a need) To me, the biggest thing that Savage had to do first was get a coach and coaching staff and figure out what they wanted in the way of players.. What schemes they were going to run,, 3-4 or 4-3.. There in lies a big difference.. You make it sound all black and white and it just isn't,, I've only given you a few points to ponder. (I like that ,,Points to ponder,,,may start a thread with that name, what do you think?  )
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I spend too much time pondering as it is. That's what I think. I guess we just see this different. IMO-He had been evaluating the draft prospects for six months in Baltimore BEFORE he got here. And I feel anybody making such a huge career decision has already weighed what they are getting into before hand. So I feel he pretty well knew the talent available in that draft and our needs when he walked through the door. If not? He isn't nearly as bright as I thought he was. So yes,he had a LOT more responsibilities here. And as I've stated numerous times now  I feel that did have some impact. But I still contend that the man had a firm grasp of our major needs and a pretty good idea on how to address them coming into this situation. At that juncture,there's not much left to do but deligate to the scouts who to scout,where to scout and what to look for. I understand his job is a complicated one. But our biggest need was an infusion of talent. And I think Phil was smart enough to know that coming in here as well.
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To put an end to this round and round argument - I say we just all agree that Pitdawg is wrong and we move on
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So a "top flight NFL talent evaluater" who works for Baltimore,can't see our glaring needs based on playing us twice a year? He can't see this? Is that what you're implying?
Thats totally different evaluating a opponent and then having to draft for that team 6 months down the road after assembling your scout team.
Do you not see a huge difference in our aquisitions from last year till today?
I get what you mean , but it's still not the same..
It seems like Phil was sleep walking in that first draft ON THE SECOND day..
I get the first three picks even though it's not what I would done..
The second day was like a cloud, afterthought on Rac's D..
Those guys were not good selections..but it seems IMO that Phil didn't have the true insight he needed and he may have thought well they'll either boom or bust..not much expected of second day picks..
Now he really sees the talent level is decrepid here and those second daypicks are TOO VALUABLE to waste..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 04/09/07 01:01 PM.
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To put an end to this round and round argument - I say we just all agree that Pitdawg is wrong and we move on
Yeah, I can live with that
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Sorry to start this heated debate. All I meant was that the evaluation of his 1st draft needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I come back 2 1/2 hours later to this. Wow. Sure was fun to read though. Love the enthusiasm on both sides of the argument.
FYI - Damanshot's last post comes pretty close to summing up my feelings so I won't belabor this issue any further.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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So you're the culprit that started this,,, you should be drawn and quartered... Someone quick,,, give me my crayons..... I'll draw him and someone else will be responbible for throwing the quarters at him
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I wont give my opinion on this Pit ... I'll just throw out some things that ALL NEED TO CONSIDER when grading/debating Opies first draft ... and this will not be in order of importance ...
1. he had a short amount of time with a new team ... he had alot on his plate .. he was further ahead than most because he was in our division .. bt make no mistake .. he had work to do here ...
2. he had to hire a HC ...
3. he had to get scouts in place (ie: he had to hire scouts witch meant time spent finding/recruiting/interviewing and training them in his phiposophies and what he liked and how things worked as far as info went ..
4, FA came first .... including getting informed about our own ...
5. yes he was doing the samething in Balt .. but what do u guys think .. Ozzie said "hell i love the Browns and your a great guy so take all OUR INFO with U" .. *L* ..
yes he had a head start but he had to re-create the wheel in alot of cases ...
7. he head to put an org. in place from support people on up ....
8. had to learn and foster relationships with Randy and RAC and the entire scouting dept.
9. had to adress each player on our team and let them know where they stood in our eyes ...
my point being that he had ALOT MORE TO DO THAN HE NORMALLY WOULD HAVE ... and that definetly put him behind the 8 ball ...
now with all that said at the end of the day guys .. he had a pretty balnk canvas to work with ... we NEEDED EVERYTHING ... so he could take who he thought were the best players ... and when u look at our picks thats pretty much what he did ...
he took Brey who was the best available ... he gambled with Pool as he was targeted as a top 10 pick the following year if he stood in school ..
and so on down the line ...
when u all want to judge his draft all these things must be taken into consideration .... and he as behind the 8 ball as far as time and familiarity went ... no doubt .... but how much did that REALLY play into who he took and when he took them ....
does the definite lack of time to prepare and lack of familiarity with everything involved in our org. take him of the hook if Brey and Pool and Perkins and the others dont pan out????
i have no clue ... just know that theres alot more to consider than some may be thinking about ...
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720 |
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To put an end to this round and round argument - I say we just all agree that Pitdawg is wrong and we move on
Okay then. I'm wrong which makes Phil stupid.
I can live with that!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Damon - I'll watch my back.
Diam - Nice post. Well stated.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
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LOL.........did you reply to my post one point at a time w/out reading the entire thing first?
kinda sorta ya .. *L* ... i read the entire response and said the board needs me here so i best respond .. *LOL* .. then i started my line by line responses .. then i saw where u brightened u but didnt feel like starting over so i just left it there figuring you'd get confused ... *L* .. and it worked .. 
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Take a shot? Bro, I pass up chances at shots all the time.
well when u take shots at Opie on almost every topic it makes it hard to overlook the times u don't ... u take shots at Opie on almost everythign he does .. and this is a SHINING EXAMPLE ..
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I was simply pointing out that Green might not want to play in Cleveland. The offense is one of the worst--if not the worst--in the entire NFL. Why would an aging QB wanna play here?..........unless he doesn't have any other offers.
EXACTLY VERS ... i agree 100% ... so why the shot at Opie???? WE ALL FORGET that he TORE THIS TEAM APART just two short years ago .. that left us in SALARY CAP HELL ... so prior to this year he had had 2 drafts and 1 Fa period ( we didnt have diddly for cash in the first FA period so we couldn;t do much other than replace A-hen and get WARM BIDIES IN) .. to build the ENTIRE TEAM ... not just the O .. and in those dfarts he used 3 of the first 4 picks (i'm talking rnds 1 and 2 times 2 years = 4) ... on D ..
and the best player we've signed since returning (other than possibly jamar Miller) wheo would have helped immensely on O gets hurt on his first play with us ..
yes our O stinks .. and thats not HIS FAULT ..... YET ...
so why the need to take a shot at Opie when CLEARLY even if we were as good as Miami (and BTW there O isn tmuch better than ours .. they STINK TO .. wel on that side of the ball anyhow) ... WHO WOULDN'T choose to go play with their BEST FRIEND and a coach they worked with for 3 years when breaking in????
u clearly went out of your way to take a shot at Opie .. and U don't ned to reach ... I agree .. but when u take UNWARRANTED SHOTS like this one was .. I'm gonna get on U for it .. weather u like it or not (or weather i spelled weatehr right or not .. *L*) ...
so there!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Never ending defense of boy wonder? I have said I am not sure about CF on numerous occasions.
I know your not .. and i can distinguish between the two .. but just like I wasn't sold on Timid i STUCK UP FOR HIM just like u are now with charlie .. your not sold on him but you sure as hell are defending him ..
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I don't agree w/you that most of time he made more mistakes than good plays. That ain't true. You just remember the bad plays more because of the emotion of it. That's natural, but it don't make it right. Frye kept a ton of drives alive last year, by making plays outta nothing!
Touche my man ... i dont think he kept near as many drives alive by making plays as u believe .. i think u remember the good plays more because of the emotion of it .. Thats natural but it dotn make iot right .. Frye KILLED a ton of drives last year, by TRYING to make plays out of nothing!
U proud of me .. i used the comma right in that past sentance ... *LOL* ..
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Secondly, I want a QB that can make plays on his own. I want a QB that makes something outta nothing. I don't want a QB who is just a manager of the game.
I agree to an extent Vers ... talk about oversimplyfing ... u either can make plays or manage games theres no one that can make plays and manage the game??? *LOL* .... anyhow I'll take an accurate/smart QB over the strong armed, mobile risk taker every day of the week .. thats my personality and style ... I'll take Montana/Manning over Elway/Favre evey day of the week and twice on Sundays (obviously these are top of the line examples but i think u get my drift .. ).... thats just my style ...
John Wooden quoted someone quite often who said "the team that makes the most mistakes will win" ... well that works in basketball but doesnt translate well to turnovers and sacks in football my friend ..
and at the end of the day ... Frye has the mobility to escape and give him the opportunity to make plays ... but that doesn't mean he will always make them when he gets the opportunity ... at least not for our team ... the rest of the skill set just isnt there ...
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What has he done to show you that he understands quarterbacks and offense? Is it releasing Garcia and Holcomb, only to trade a 4th rd. pick for Dilfer?
I'm not convinced he knows QB's or O .. but he was 100% CORRECT in getting rid of Jeff .. he didnt release Kelly ... he was a FA who we made an offer to that elected to go elsewhere ... thats not exactly releasing him bro .. *L* ..
Jeff is a WCO QB .. we werent going to run the WCO .. we made a decision to SCRAP the OLD and BRING IN THE NEW even though we would have been more succesful the 1st year with a 4-3 D and keeping some of the players .. we DID THE RIGHT THING IMO and just moved forward .. so Jeff was a goner .. GREAT MOVE ..
your way higher on smelly than i ever was .. and just like with suggs the proof is in the pudding .. wheres Smelly now in the BACK UP ROLE???? hes a great back up Vers but not a good starter ...
we had to have a QB Vers .. so he spent a 4th to get a QB he was familair with and thought could be a good mentor .. he was obviously wrong ...
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Is it then trading Dilfer for Dorsey?
Dilfer wanted out .. he had become a problem .. he had to go .. i see no probs with this one .. he got rid of a disgruntled QB .. hopefully they threw in some footballs or tees of jocks .. *L*
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Is it going into last season w/out an established vet?
i have no probs with that .. he wanted Charlie to know it was his team and he didnt have to look over his shoulder .. he also knew we weren tgoing anywhere anyhow .. so lets see what the kid(s) got ... let him go through the learning curve and see where were at at the end of the year ..
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Is it putting the offense in the hands of an inexperienced QB, even though the OL sucked and the other skill positions were either inexperienced or duds?
Ya .. that one prolly wouldn't be a good one to sell Opie's knowing the QB position or O with .. *L* .. u gotta take the good with the bad bro ... he had two choices ... bring in a vet to be a sacrificial lamb and then put us knowing about Frye for a year or put Frye in an unenviable position and learn as much as u could about him .. he chose the one that shines a bad light if u want to WAY OVERSIMPLIFY THINGS ...
we'll know alot more about how well Opie understands the QB position and Offense in general after our first pick this year .. if BQ is there and takes him hes a genius .. if he passes on BQ he knows very little about the position .. 
I gotta run bro .. will get to the rest later ...
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
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j/c
OL = horses
QB = cart
draft Joe.
don't draft another cart yet.
...this has been a public service announcement.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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OP
Hall of Famer
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I wont give my opinion on this Pit ... I'll just throw out some things that ALL NEED TO CONSIDER when grading/debating Opies first draft ... and this will not be in order of importance ...
As always.........very well thought out and very rational. It reeks a little bit of bias. Seriously man..........do you ever not try and defend him and try to be objective?
Anyway...........I love all the "reasons" ...I call them excuses.......for Savage's [censored] draft. Very creative. However, I would like to point out to all the apologists that Savage said that he drafted Best Available across the board. That need did not factor into the equation. Thus, all the BS excuses are just that..........BS!
I also remember how giddy most were after the draft. The general feeling was that Savage had an excellent draft and was a true genius. I do remember one poster who started a Draft Forum thread about teams that win and how they address the OL and DL and how losing teams concentrate on the perimeter players. Anyone remember that post.....way back when? I think the poster was a good looking guy w/the first initial of V. 
I have a feeling that Savage is going to go down the wrong road again. And in two more years time.......the same damn conversations will be happening again. Some will say we gotta address the OL and DL in the draft. Others will want a QB, WR, or RB in rd. 1 and perimeter players like CBs in rd. 2 and 3.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Vers, Many good points... some not so good points... people like you Diam, Attack, Pit, Toad, myself and others should really not play the bias card... When we do it's easy to get called, not holding the nuts... The Browns do need to draft qualtiy come in and start quality 0-Line prospect/s this year. They also need a quality CB this year. Whether you beleive so or not. The Browns secondary, CB's in particlular is casuing the D to cover the CB's, more saftey help, deeper drops by LB's... We have all seen this... The CB's on the roster are not of good enough quality, a couple are not on the field enough, to be exposed in coverage, trusted to make plays. So the D is more vanilla, doens't take the chances they need to to casue pressure, TO's and mistakes that this D needs to be successful. This effects the run D too, giving up to many yards, not being in position to make plays @ the LOS. The Browns need another quality come in and start DT/DE IMO, now, this year too... I hope we draft one by or before the 3rd round. As ususal this will depend on who's available. When we look at the depth chart we can clearly see this too... One of the problems are that the Browns still have a lot of positions that need upgraded and there is only so much $$$ and draft choices to do so. I too as you know have been critical of PS... I don't like or support the 0-Line, D-Line QB, CB, RB, WR or TE choices made over the last couple of seasons. I understand why PS and staff did what they did. I'm still of the opinion that the Browns are 20 quality players away from being compeditive, 500. When one looks at the team and whats happening on the field it's pretty obvious where the Browns are... 2 years and the condition the Browns were in when the current staff was hired are clearly why the Browns suck right now. We are all tired of being pateint and having the same discussions every year. Again, the Bowns are where they are and so are we. I appreciated most of your takes as they make me think. Even though I don't agree with you much of the time, I learn and expand my perspectives and knowledge set... Until next time... Hang in there man...
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I'm still of the opinion that the Browns are 20 quality players away from being compeditive, 500.
Wow!
Let's see...there's 11 on O...11 on D...which 2 guys do you like?
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
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Quote:
I appreciated most of your takes as they make me think. Even though I don't agree with you much of the time, I learn and expand my perspectives and knowledge set... Until next time... Hang in there man...
Cool. I am glad there are still a few around here who like to learn. I love when other people teach me something. I have a great thirst for learning. I consider myself a life-long learner and I appreciate those who educate me.
Unfortunately, there aren't many people on here who like to learn. They have their opinions and don't want anyone to point out things that might be contrary to their own beliefs. Justification often reaches bizarre levels on here.
Boise.........we don't need to agree. But, if we both respect each other's opinions and keep an open mind throughout the argument....we can both learn. Neither of us will ever change our viewpoints completely, but examining and evaluating our ideas on a continual basis leads to growth. Knowledge is power, my friend. Take care.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Easy now nice lady... Lets take a look @ something that might open another angle to look at or look @ what I wrote from another perspective... There is a 53 man roster for NFL teams? Right? Haaa... Much better. By the way, I believe that outside of our punter, kicker and long snapper the Browns only have 8 players of the starting 22 you mention that would start on any other NFL team... So you aren't to far off of what I saying...
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