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I'm probably gonna get beat on for this but I didn't want the Browns to trade all those picks for RG3 and while he had a heck of a rookie season, I think it's pretty clear, he couldn't keep that up and stay alive.
He's a polarizing guy, both in terms of play and of value, so it's hard to "beat on" anyone regarding him.
What we can say for sure is that Shanahan totally blew it by continuing to march an obviously crippled RG3 out there when he had no business being on the field. His major knee injury was caused by being forced to play when the leg was already seriously damaged. The laws of causality indicate nobody can say for sure that his major knee injury showed he was injury-prone. What can be said is that it's fair speculation to question whether or not his style made him a risk.
Regardless of how people view RG3, there's no question or debate when it comes to saying Holmgren blew it. He wanted RG3, then cried like a little girl when it got out into public space. It's also non-debatable to say he compounded the mistake by making the ridiculous move to take Flipper in the 1st.
What an idiot.
You won't get an argument out of me on the Weeden pick,, I agree. But as for RG3, that was Holmgren being Holmgren, he didn't get the guy he wanted, but I personally can't get mad about it. I think long term, we're better off without RG3.
As for Shanahan being a dope for trotting RG out there, oh yeah., He had a QB that could do the job waiting in the wings..There was no need to push RG out there.
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Just clicking http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...an-ponder-at-qbSo Freeman has a concussion and Ponder will start.
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j/c
Holmgren made a ton of bad decisions.
He offered up what he thought RG3 was worth. Someone offered more and "won" the bidding. I'm thrilled that we "lost" that ridiculous bidding. If that counts as one of Holmgren's bad decisions, then I am happy that he screwed that one up.
The Weeden pick was terrible...but I separate that from the RG3 "mistake". I think he stuck his nose in there on the Weeden pick when he should have let his guys run that.
I liked the chance we took with Weeden. I hate that we picked him in the first. As my buddy Dan says, "I like the player and hate the pick".
If they would have gotten Weeden in the 3rd, we'd all be consolable with another failed "shot" at a QB in the 3rd round.
What an awful 1st round...trade UP to get a RB who is traded a season later...and pick a 29 year old with no feel for the QB position. You'd be hard pressed to dream up a worse scenario.
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To be fair Willie, very very few thought that TRich would bust out. Jim Brown thought he was nothing special and he turned out to be right, but really, few fans thought he would be what he turned out to be..
#GMSTRONG
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To be fair Willie, very very few thought that TRich would bust out. Jim Brown thought he was nothing special and he turned out to be right, but really, few fans thought he would be what he turned out to be..
Didn't Jim Brown change his tune a little when things began to smooth over with him and the organization?
I think Mr. Brown will tow the company line depending on his current emotional standing with the team.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I think Mr. Brown will tow the company line depending on his current emotional standing with the team.
+ 1
I respect the HELL outta Brown, but I found him to handle a few situations extremely immature.
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I'm probably gonna get beat on for this but I didn't want the Browns to trade all those picks for RG3 and while he had a heck of a rookie season, I think it's pretty clear, he couldn't keep that up and stay alive. I think in the long run, he's not long for this league.
In hindsight though, even if you aren't a huge RGIII fan it was still a horrible mistake not to trade for him. Had we ponied up the extra 2nd, we would've given up Richardson, Weeden, Schwartz and Mingo (although there's no way we'd have finished 5-11 with RGIII so the pick wouldn't have been worth Mingo). Let's say you're right and RGIII is not long for the league (seems a fair argument to make) and plays 8 years in the league before flaming out at 30. Would you trade all those players (or what's left of them  ) for that kind of player and stability at the QB position for 8 years? I would and wouldn't think twice.
That is what cost Holmgren his job. Great QB play means stability. When the great ones are surrounded with hot garbage (look at the 5-2 Patriots this year), they almost always keep the team competitive. Even in an off-year, usually it only lasts one season before a rebound. When you not only draft a scrub QB but draft him at age 28-29 in the first round, you screw yourself for as long as he's on the roster AND waste assets doing so.
This is why it's imperative for Banner/Lombardi to land their guy in the draft, even if we end up paying a king's ransom. With even a good QB, this is a playoff team right now in the watered down AFC North. Hell, even with Hoyer who was cut before the start of the season, we were a playoff contender. With a guy like Weeden though, we're going to be picking in the Top 10 again. Get the franchise QB at all costs. Worry about how much it actually costs later because at that point, it won't matter as much when that QB is winning games.
We're... we're good?
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Just clicking
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...an-ponder-at-qb
So Freeman has a concussion and Ponder will start.
lol...sure he does.
I would suppose that he does.
Most teams don't remove a new starter after only one game. They let him grow into his new role for a while. The Vikings have already decided that they don't like Ponder. One week on the sidelines didn't change that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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or they decided that 8 days or whatever wasnt enough time to memorize their playbook
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To be fair Willie, very very few thought that TRich would bust out. Jim Brown thought he was nothing special and he turned out to be right, but really, few fans thought he would be what he turned out to be..
Didn't Jim Brown change his tune a little when things began to smooth over with him and the organization?
I think Mr. Brown will tow the company line depending on his current emotional standing with the team.
Yeah, he backtracked after the new ownership embraced him and brought him back into the fold. You do have to wonder, was he saying what he believed or was he saying it to be judging Holmgren? I really don't know. But in either case, he turned out to be correct so far.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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n hindsight though, even if you aren't a huge RGIII fan it was still a horrible mistake not to trade for him.
Ha,, in hindsight I have the exact same thought I had before the draft.. I didn't want to pay that price for him then and I have no reason to change my thinking now.
The key for me was, if we could have gotten him with the 3rd overall pick without trading away the future, I'd have done it. But I didn't believe giving away all those future picks was right.
I knew he was a talent,, no question about it, I didn't think he'd hold up in the NFL playing the way he did and thus far, I've been correct. Of course, the kid could play another 10 years, win 3 Superbowls and never miss another game. If I'm still here, I'll admit being wrong then.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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In hindsight though, even if you aren't a huge RGIII fan it was still a horrible mistake not to trade for him. Had we ponied up the extra 2nd, we would've given up Richardson, Weeden, Schwartz and Mingo (although there's no way we'd have finished 5-11 with RGIII so the pick wouldn't have been worth Mingo). Let's say you're right and RGIII is not long for the league (seems a fair argument to make) and plays 8 years in the league before flaming out at 30. Would you trade all those players (or what's left of them ) for that kind of player and stability at
At the time with Shurmur at the helm, no. I think we could have done more damage to him than good. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Why do you care so much about being right and pointing out that you were right? No one cares.
Goodness! It's amazing how many of you really don't get it........or, don't want to get it.
It's NOT about me--or anyone else--being right. It's about all the hateful arguments that a group of posters use when someone doesn't agree w/the majority opinion. It's about them never ever owning up. It's about then turning every topic into a character attack about a poster rather than discussing the topic at hand. It's about them moving on to the very next topic and starting over w/their belittling of the very same people.
It's about arguing fairly and accountability.
It is NOT about me--or others--being right.
Sheesh!
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It is NOT about me
that may be how you see it, but really, that isn't how it appears.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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You'd be hard pressed to dream up a worse scenario.
Oh, I don't know... LaCharles Bentley never playing a down for us wasn't a dream and was just as bad IMO.
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It's about arguing fairly and accountability.
It's a football message board, not the House of Representatives.
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Yeah, he backtracked after the new ownership embraced him and brought him back into the fold. You do have to wonder, was he saying what he believed or was he saying it to be judging Holmgren?
I think he meant what he said the first time but changed his tune so as not to alienate Richardson from himself now that he was going to be around a lot more.
Saying all those good things about TR later on was probably to give him some encouragement. Jim Brown is a Brown. I doubt he'd really want to discourage a Browns player from doing his best. Imagine, how it would feel to be a RB and have to be around the best RB in the history of the NFL and know that he thinks you're a chump?
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It's a football message board, not the House of Representatives.
Still, each of us in our own right has to represent. So what are we going to represent, a knowledgeable football fan on a message board or a bickering child who finds personal faults to expose rather than football points to discuss?
#gmstrong
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Why do you care so much about being right and pointing out that you were right? No one cares.
Goodness! It's amazing how many of you really don't get it........or, don't want to get it.
It's NOT about me--or anyone else--being right. It's about all the hateful arguments that a group of posters use when someone doesn't agree w/the majority opinion. It's about them never ever owning up. It's about then turning every topic into a character attack about a poster rather than discussing the topic at hand. It's about them moving on to the very next topic and starting over w/their belittling of the very same people.
It's about arguing fairly and accountability.
It is NOT about me--or others--being right.
Sheesh!
Who made you the arbiter of the Fair & Accountable Message Board?
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You'd be hard pressed to dream up a worse scenario.
Oh, I don't know... LaCharles Bentley never playing a down for us wasn't a dream and was just as bad IMO.
Thanks ddubia...just about the time I started feeling better about my fandom...you drop the LCB bomb. 
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You'd be hard pressed to dream up a worse scenario.
Oh, I don't know... LaCharles Bentley never playing a down for us wasn't a dream and was just as bad IMO.
Thanks ddubia...just about the time I started feeling better about my fandom...you drop the LCB bomb.
Should we hold the Gary Baxter explosive for reserve, or should that drop too? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Your last two posts: Quote:
Why do you care so much about being right and pointing out that you were right? No one cares.
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Who made you the arbiter of the Fair & Accountable Message Board?
No irony there. 
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j/c...How did this become about Holmgren?
As for the article...I still say this is a unique opportunity by hopefully the right people. Haslam/Banner/Lombardi/Farmer/Chud/Staff...to get this right finally.
Unique cause we have so many of the pieces of the puzzle...so many draft young starters. So much Cap room to sign the good ones maturing and a few key FAs.
I do agree with the author of the article Toad...May n the QB decision is a big one. There was not mention and possibly the article was written before he was known to us - That would be HOYER.
We still draft one but there shouldn't be the pressure of starting him right away.
pblack...man stuck foot in mouth on that one...don't worry we all do that some time or another...just laugh about it and say my bad.
On one of those links...pretty much says it all for me regarding Holmgren.
He was Bragging about his choice on Shurmur as the new HC...Saying it was his first and he thought his last (well he probably was right on the HIS LAST BIT) but last for all the wrong reasons.
I say another thing...I was excited about Holmgren cause I had read several times Ron Wolf's book and was exciting cause I was anticipating Holmgren's following the teachings of a wise man.
He did so on several steps. But Wolf was adamant on two points.
He stated you MUST...MUST!!! have two things in the form of a SUPER STAR!
Super Star HC
Super Star QB
Holmgren possibly did not work too hard after getting Heckert...but he did work hard on both getting the HC and getting a Star QB.
Both failed miserably...end of story.
Vers...I ain't going to pat you on the back more than once on one subject 
The good news...2014 is supposedly shaping up as one of those Year of the QB. Man I hope Lombardi n his sourness on Weeden along with insisting we take a shot at Hoyer is a sign that he can do this evaluation right.
Btw...I really doubt we pick #6...we should be so lucky. And Dang the Colts won 3 games I was counting on them losing  Seahawks, 49ers and Denver.
I think we stand pat and take a QB with our first pick and then a stud at TE/ILB/OL with the 2nd...the usual late spot that one of the best at those positions are.
JMHO. All I know is Lets FINALLY GET THIS THING Done. Between a good OL who can get better, Gordon, Little, Benjamin, Cameron - getting Hardesty n Lewis back along with Ogb...Hoyer will lead us and the new kid QB will learn and take over when he's ready...We are ready to rock n roll!!!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Well Tab, it often times ends up being about Holmgren doesn't it?  The only exception I take with your post is about standing pat and selecting a QB. That's fine if you feel the QB you "target" will fall to you. I believe having faith in Hoyer based on two starts is very short sighted. We've seen far too often how a back-up will come in and light things up for a few games until your opponents get some film on him and then it all goes to hell. I think Weedens poor play simply made average QB play look great. I believe we witnessed what happened when you simply draft the QB who falls to you when Weeden was drafted. IMO, you have to evaluate the QB's coming out and designate a target. Then you go after that target. Now if that can be done by standing pat in the draft, that would be the perfect scenario. But if it takes moving up to accomplish that goal, by all means, move up. While Hoyer looked decent in his two starts, nothing screamed "franchise QB". And until we have one, we will be stuck in mediocrity at best. JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Just a thought but I would imagine if we drafted a guy #1 and his first few games went like Hoyer's did people would be screaming "franchise QB" ...because he was a first round pick.
My point is perception is a funny thing. Hoyer can't be a franchise QB because he wasn't drafted in the first round and he's bounced around the league. Those two games had to be a mirage. But if our first round QB puts up the same games, he will without question be proclaimed a franchise QB.
For the record I agree with you the sample size is small. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss either.
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Just a thought but I would imagine if we drafted a guy #1 and his first few games went like Hoyer's did people would be screaming "franchise QB" ...because he was a first round pick.
IMO people might be screaming it, but once again the sample size would be too small to make such a call.
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For the record I agree with you the sample size is small. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss either.
I believe there is a huge difference between dismissing it and counting on it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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For the record I agree with you the sample size is small. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss either.
Can't dismiss what we all saw.
Hoyer was a leader. Hoyer made quick decisions. Hoyer got the ball out quicker than any QB that's played here in the last 20 years. He showed accuracy, touch, and mobility.
Unfortunately he also showed that he had made up his mind to throw to his primary without making sure coverage wasn't there.
We can't bank on Hoyer being the savior, but there are reasons to believe he's worth a look, just as long as we aren't ready to anoint him the king without cause.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That's why I'd be totally fine grabbing one of the 2nd round QBs (Carr, Maziel) assuming they don't all get over drafted..
Then letting Hoyer start the year (if he's healthy) while they SIT AND LEARN.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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That's why I'd be totally fine grabbing one of the 2nd round QBs (Carr, Maziel) assuming they don't all get over drafted..
Then letting Hoyer start the year (if he's healthy) while they SIT AND LEARN.
So if it's found out to be that Hoyer isn't the answer, we are left with the 5th or 6th QB in this draft "hoping" he will pan out to be a franchise QB?
That sounds like the previous regime to me.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I believe having faith in Hoyer based on two starts is very short sighted. We've seen far too often how a back-up will come in and light things up for a few games until your opponents get some film on him
I think The whole "got film on ya" is not what Hoyer is about. I think the FO knows that the reason Hoyer looks the part, isn't because he is new and the other teams don't have film, as much as his attitude and desire to win. No amount of film is going to take that away. The difference between Hoyer and all the others is "the others" all had faults that stood out and a little film work would expose that. Not so much with Hoyer. I think that's what their looking at.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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The downside I see with Hoyer is similar to that which took down Holcomb. He is excellent at pre-snap reads, and making decisions quickly. He is great at making short, quick throws. He is susceptible to pressure up the middle. He does not have a particularly effective middle to deep pass. (I think that Holcomb was probably better than what Hoyer has shown in this regard) I think that he can be fooled by a defense that does not commit itself early, or that runs multiple defenses out of a similar set can confuse him. Just like all players, once teams get the book on him, he has to adjust to the adjustments teams make to stop him. I do think that he has the football smarts to do so. He definitely has leadership galore. I think that he has more potential pluses than minuses. I was encouraged by some of what I saw from Hoyer.That said, I saw a lot of worrisome things in the Vikings game, and he beat a beat up Bengals defense, and we won that game scoring only 17 points. I do think that Hoyer has promise. I heard something recently that makes some sense. That is that a QB can only develop so far on the sidelines. I think that he has reached that point. I don't think that there is a lot more for him to learn from sitting and watching. I think that he needs to get on the field, make plays and make mistakes, and then we can see what he is, and what he truly has to offer. Frankly, he has already showed more than I thought he would when we signed him. I was entirely unimpressed with him at that time, and would have preferred to keep Lewis. However .... he was a 3rd QB ..... so what were the chances of him seeing the field ......... lol Man was I wrong on all counts there.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's why I'd be totally fine grabbing one of the 2nd round QBs (Carr, Maziel) assuming they don't all get over drafted..
Then letting Hoyer start the year (if he's healthy) while they SIT AND LEARN.
So if it's found out to be that Hoyer isn't the answer, we are left with the 5th or 6th QB in this draft "hoping" he will pan out to be a franchise QB?
That sounds like the previous regime to me.....
You could take the "best" QB of this class and still have to HOPE he pans out.
I'd rather grab a 2nd round guy and use the two first picks on other positions instead of trading MULTIPLE picks and putting all the pressure on one guy right from the start.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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You could take the "best" QB of this class and still have to HOPE he pans out.
I'd rather grab a 2nd round guy and use the two first picks on other positions instead of trading MULTIPLE picks and putting all the pressure on one guy right from the start.
Well here are the rather obvious questions that your scenario leaves.......
Do you honestly believe that based on Hoyers two starts, that you would not go after the QB that has the best opportunity based on your big board at being a long term franchise QB?
Does his two starts give you enough evidence that he gives you the best odds of answering the franchise QB position?
If this FO has a highly ranked QB on their big board they believe will answer the franchise QB position, do you believe what they saw in Hoyer is enough to change that opinion and cause you to go with your second or third option in addressing drafting what you believe is franchise QB material?
I ask these questions because FO's have a big board. If they have a highly talented QB rated that is worth moving up to trade for, or worthy of a high first round pick, and another slated in rounds two or three, there are obvious reasons to them why one is rated much higher than the others. They would obviously feel the one who is much higher rated holds much less risk.
Things like overall talent and their belief of answering the franchise QB plays into where QB's are rated on a draft board. Obviously the talent and potential of a player is why some are rated so much higher than others.
A FO always feels the more highly rated player is better, or there would be no need for such things as a draft board and player rankings. So to me, a FO would have to have a lot of faith in Hoyer to change their draft strategy based on two starts.
While you are right that every draft pick comes with some risk, a FO must believe that if they rank a player one or two rounds higher, they believe the risk is far less than a player ranked much lower.
Now I don't believe any of us know with any certainty that they have a highly regarded QB they they are considering drafting or trading up for in the first round. But if they do, is it your contention they abandon drafting a QB they feel is a much better prospect based on Hoyers two games?
And as far as placing pressure on one guy from the start? I would still see no reason they would have to start a draft pick from day one no matter where he is drafted. You could still start Hoyer for as long as he remains productive.
A disaster is having no answer to your QB problems. Having two answers is a blessing.
My opinion is that two starts is simply not enough evidence to change your strategy on draft day. What ever that strategy is. I'm not dismissing the play of Hoyer at all. I simply didn't see it as enough to abandon what ever plans this FO had in regards to drafting who they have penciled in on draft day.
I believe when addressing the QB position, when you don't have a franchise QB or aren't certain whether you do or not, you try to answer that question with the best possible solution you can get your hands on.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I don't think Hoyers two starts or whatever Cambell does this year changes anything. We are going to draft a QB next year.
But depending on who comes out. If there are 5-6 QBs that grade out somewhat equally, why pay top dollar for one when you can get a guy that's just been pushed down the draft because of numbers.
Heck if we take someone with the Colts pick (high 20s) and use our pick (Mid first) on something else. I think that a lot better long term then trading both of them (plus more) for a top 5-10 pick to get a certain guy.
But that's just me.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I would agree that if they saw that many QB's rated that closely together, you have a valid point.
I am simply of the firm belief, that when it comes to QB's, you rarely have a class that you have that many QB's rated in "the upper echelon" category.
So we're really pretty much on the same page here with that one exception.
I do believe there won't be very many QB's rated in that upper echelon. So I do believe that if there is even one left they believe is worthy of a high first round or even using more picks to trade, and they feel if they wait any longer at the QB position before they feel there is a sharp drop off in talent at QB, they should take the plunge.
I also believe that the system you run has a great impact on how long that list of potential franchise QB's are that you're looking at.
Actually, in every draft I've ever witnessed, outside of the top two or three QB's in every draft has had as many questions as they pose answers. In some cases they paid off, but far more those risks outweighed the rewards. And that's something I believe most of us have seen enough of.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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It's just a daggone shame that Hoyer didn't stay healthy this year. It would have made our decision about where/when/and if to draft a QB so much easier.
We're in a pretty rough spot. Thank God the FO acquired all those extra picks in the upcoming draft. At least we have some flexibility and some options.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
It's just a daggone shame that Hoyer didn't stay healthy this year. It would have made our decision about where/when/and if to draft a QB so much easier.
We're in a pretty rough spot. Thank God the FO acquired all those extra picks in the upcoming draft. At least we have some flexibility and some options.
This.
Best case scenario is that we would see exactly what Hoyer can being to the table. All we ended up with was a small sampling. It looked good, but was too small of a snapshot. If he finishes the season then that is one less unknown going into next year.
We draft a QB, no doubt. The only way we don't is if we end up trading for Cousins or Mallet (I have said in another thread I would consider trading Gordon for Cousins a nice pick. Maybe RG3 would want reunited with his college WR ... I don't care about making him happy but it may be a selling point).
It looks as though we will have one pretty high pick (I do not have a lot of hope for the remainder of our season - Campbell did better than I thought he would, but I am tired of moral victories. At the end of the day, we lost) and the Colts pick will be in the latter half of the first. What would it take to move into a position to draft a top flight QB? I can't even get a feel for who would be best coming out of college this year. We have an extra 3 and 4 ... how much ammo do those give us when trying to move up in the 1st?
Every time something starts to look up ... reality comes along and kicks us in the sack.
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Dawg Talker
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You think we draft a QB no doubt?
I'm not so sure. The recent report that the Browns are not in love with any of the college QBs right now makes me believe they want to roll the dice with Hoyer. Given the fact that Lombardi has a man crush on Hoyer (as he should) and that Hoyer was the unquestioned leader of this team in the 2 games he played, it makes me think they will go with him next year with Campbell backing him up. If they do draft a QB, I'd bet it's not one of the top guys that people are selling this year.
I'm not so sure they draft a QB. I'm actually not so sure they NEED to.............
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All Pro
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It's about arguing fairly and accountability.
It's a football message board, not the House of Representatives.
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