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Maybe he should have come in and coached the team himself, and then handed things over to a handpicked OC (not the Shurmurnator) once he felt like things were stabilized.
Instead he took the easy way out and showed up to work at 10 am and stayed for a few hours. What a jackass.
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Quote:
Maybe he should have come in and coached the team himself, and then handed things over to a handpicked OC (not the Shurmurnator) once he felt like things were stabilized.
Instead he took the easy way out and showed up to work at 10 am and stayed for a few hours. What a jackass.
Bingo
I think that's the type of approach we expected.
He definitely should have coached the team until he found someone capable.
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What do you mean? He did a thorough search of all the potential head coaches then hired Shurmur. He left no stone unturned.
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He, he
A thorough search of Lamonte's client list.
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Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
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He, he
A thorough search of Lamonte's client list.
Even if that is all he did then I would have hoped for someone better than Shurmur. Literally anyone else he could have hired would have done a better job than Shurmur.
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The only problem with that, Bradford isn't the QB everyone thought he'd be..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think Heckert was a decent GM, but he will forever be remembered as the guy who passed on Julio Jones (even though I personally love Phil Taylor) and drafted Richardson and Weeden.
This decision to pass on Julio is what irks me to this day. Couple that with the drafting of Weeden the following year (walrus decision or not) puts an ugly stain on an otherwise very decent track record.
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*In Baker we trust*
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The only problem with that, Bradford isn't the QB everyone thought he'd be..
Daman
Yes on the surface.
Has he received high level coaching? Don't think so. How about his offensive line? When I've watched them over the past few years, the opponents defensive line gets back to the pocket faster than he can. His receivers? Its possible his receivers have been weaker than the coaching and line. Jackson was his running back. Injured most of every season. We can discount these as excuses. But, we give Heckert the benefit of the doubt. Bradford is one of those players that was drafted into the worst possible situation, unlike a Kapernick who would be on the opposite side of the spectrum.
When I've watched him, if his line gets all pumped for one play and blocks at a professional level, I've seen throws that are as accurate as Rodgers and Brees. I'm just saying that if Holmgren wanted to leave his legacy as the guy who also rebuilt the Browns (as we were under the impression, sold as), and he tutored Bradford, we would be on our way towards building a playoff level team.
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That decision to pass on Julio Jones has now, basically, become a straight up trade for Greg Little and Phil Taylor.
The picks we received were used to draft Little, Marecic, Taylor, JMJ, (I think) and Weeden ......
What a depressing pay off for what looked like a great trade at the time. I love Tyalor, but given the choice between him or Jones ...... I think that I'd go Jones. We'd have a great #1 receiver, and probably wouldn't have spent a 2nd on Gordon, so we'd have had that pick this year. Evey is we had also taken Gordon, we'd have Julio Jones and Josh Gordon as a starting pair of receivers. Good lord! That would be frightening with even an average QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What do you mean? He did a thorough search of all the potential head coaches then hired Shurmur. He left no stone unturned.
lol
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Quote:
I think Heckert was a decent GM, but he will forever be remembered as the guy who passed on Julio Jones (even though I personally love Phil Taylor) and drafted Richardson and Weeden.
That whole thing is linked together because the Weeden pick came from the deal involving Atlanta taking Jones.
That deal isn't closed out yet though is it? We passed on Julio and used the picks to in part get Richardson and Weeden... but then we traded Richardson for a 1st round pick and have yet to use it. The 1st round pick very well may be a key reason why we are able to finally get our franchise QB this coming draft.
Also, Julio has great talent but is an injury concern. This isn't the first time he's had foot problems... serious foot problems. Guys has weak feet and could dramatically limit his career.
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I don't think that we used anything in that trade to get Trent.
We got a 1st (Taylor) in 2011, a 2nd (Little) and a 4th (Marecic)
In 2012 we got a 1st (Weeden) and a 4th (JMJ, I believe)
I don't think that Trent has anything to do with that trade. (although I could be wrong about the pick used to draft JMJ)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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And the next head coach is ......
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Quote:
Quote:
I think Heckert was a decent GM, but he will forever be remembered as the guy who passed on Julio Jones (even though I personally love Phil Taylor) and drafted Richardson and Weeden.
That whole thing is linked together because the Weeden pick came from the deal involving Atlanta taking Jones.
That deal isn't closed out yet though is it? We passed on Julio and used the picks to in part get Richardson and Weeden... but then we traded Richardson for a 1st round pick and have yet to use it. The 1st round pick very well may be a key reason why we are able to finally get our franchise QB this coming draft.
Also, Julio has great talent but is an injury concern. This isn't the first time he's had foot problems... serious foot problems. Guys has weak feet and could dramatically limit his career.
You know what, that's a great point. If that pick helps us get a franchise QB, then we'll all look back at how funny that worked out.
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Quote:
Quote:
I think Heckert was a decent GM, but he will forever be remembered as the guy who passed on Julio Jones (even though I personally love Phil Taylor) and drafted Richardson and Weeden.
That whole thing is linked together because the Weeden pick came from the deal involving Atlanta taking Jones.
That deal isn't closed out yet though is it? We passed on Julio and used the picks to in part get Richardson and Weeden... but then we traded Richardson for a 1st round pick and have yet to use it. The 1st round pick very well may be a key reason why we are able to finally get our franchise QB this coming draft.
Also, Julio has great talent but is an injury concern. This isn't the first time he's had foot problems... serious foot problems. Guys has weak feet and could dramatically limit his career.
But the Richardson pick had nothing to do with Julio. Its the Weeden pick we acquired from it and that player is still on the roster.
Wait....Unless you're saying that he drafted Weeden so we'd suck bad enough in 2 years to have to trade away Richardson to get more ammunition to draft a QB in 2014. Maybe the walrus was smarter than everyone and this was his ultimate master scheme!
Or not.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Regardless, just glad the Walrus is gone.  
For sure
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Think about this .....
How would this team look with:
Julio Jones
RG3
Gordon
No Mingo, Schwartz, Trent pick, Little, Marecic, Taylor, or 1st round pick next year.
I think that I would prefer RG3 and 2 great receivers. Taylor has been amazing, and Mingo shows promise ...... but we'd have a franchise QB and 2 great receivers for him to throw to. Wow.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Think about this .....
How would this team look with:
Julio Jones
RG3
Gordon
No Mingo, Schwartz, Trent pick, Little, Marecic, Taylor, or 1st round pick next year.
I think that I would prefer RG3 and 2 great receivers. Taylor has been amazing, and Mingo shows promise ...... but we'd have a franchise QB and 2 great receivers for him to throw to. Wow.
i dunno. i mean i'd be good now with either way.
seeing as we would've got chud, banner, horton, norv and haslam anyway.
because with shurmur, RG3 maybe wouldn't had gotten injured so much his 1st year, but he definitely would've been looking like 1st round bust because of the play calling.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Quote:
Think about this .....
How would this team look with:
Julio Jones
RG3
Gordon
No Mingo, Schwartz, Trent pick, Little, Marecic, Taylor, or 1st round pick next year.
I think that I would prefer RG3 and 2 great receivers. Taylor has been amazing, and Mingo shows promise ...... but we'd have a franchise QB and 2 great receivers for him to throw to. Wow.
i dunno. i mean i'd be good now with either way.
seeing as we would've got chud, banner, horton, norv and haslam anyway.
because with shurmur, RG3 maybe wouldn't had gotten injured so much his 1st year, but he definitely would've been looking like 1st round bust because of the play calling.
I dunno.
We probably would have gone looking for a free agent RB since we wouldn't have drafted Trent. We also probably would have gone in search of another DT, since we were in the 4-3 at the time. Heck, we might have even signed Bryant as a 4-3 DT if Heckert had remained here.
Besides that ..... with 2 outstanding outside receivers, I think that every play would have been more effective. There is a huge difference between hitting a guy like Little over the middle, or hitting Julio Jones. I salivate at the thought of having a real NFL QB and a pair of outstanding, top 10-15 type NFL WRs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Think about this .....
How would this team look with:
Julio Jones
RG3
Gordon
No Mingo, Schwartz, Trent pick, Little, Marecic, Taylor, or 1st round pick next year.
I think that I would prefer RG3 and 2 great receivers. Taylor has been amazing, and Mingo shows promise ...... but we'd have a franchise QB and 2 great receivers for him to throw to. Wow.
We still might have Shurmur as our HC though. The best thing that guy contributed was a poorly transcribed press conference.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Think about this .....
How would this team look with:
Julio Jones
RG3
Gordon
No Mingo, Schwartz, Trent pick, Little, Marecic, Taylor, or 1st round pick next year.
I think that I would prefer RG3 and 2 great receivers. Taylor has been amazing, and Mingo shows promise ...... but we'd have a franchise QB and 2 great receivers for him to throw to. Wow.
i dunno. i mean i'd be good now with either way.
seeing as we would've got chud, banner, horton, norv and haslam anyway.
because with shurmur, RG3 maybe wouldn't had gotten injured so much his 1st year, but he definitely would've been looking like 1st round bust because of the play calling.
I dunno.
We probably would have gone looking for a free agent RB since we wouldn't have drafted Trent. We also probably would have gone in search of another DT, since we were in the 4-3 at the time. Heck, we might have even signed Bryant as a 4-3 DT if Heckert had remained here.
Besides that ..... with 2 outstanding outside receivers, I think that every play would have been more effective. There is a huge difference between hitting a guy like Little over the middle, or hitting Julio Jones. I salivate at the thought of having a real NFL QB and a pair of outstanding, top 10-15 type NFL WRs.
This is my main point and where I was hoping to go to with this.
I know, I know its "could a, whould a, should a. But, I'm not up for another Little needs to learn how to catch the ball thread.
Watching the bengals last night was somewhat depressing. Are any of our units even close to theirs from a talent perspective? Where can we match up or compare? We are talking about the freakin bengals.
After thinking about it last night, I beleive that we Brown's fans give Heckert more credit than he deserves simply because he didn't screw up as bad as all the others -- As bad as weve become used to/conditioned to.
I'm changing his grade down to a C+ and if something happens with Gordon and a suspension then....
Last edited by Olskool711; 11/01/13 11:17 AM.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
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Good:
His solid young drafting n UDFA signing of players in his 3 years. 2010, 2011 n 2012.
After a regime Change: We are starting. 7 of them on Defense. 5 on Offense...not counting Weeden, Greco or Obg.
With his Long Term Building of YOUTH and not through FA...he left the new Regime with 40+mil in Cap Space!
Bad:
Its tough when your boss states he will have a Hands on input for the QB position but still he has to bear some of the responsibilities for that position.
Heckert made it known that he could not work with Mangini due to philosophy differences n had a hand in his firing.
Ugly:
Shurmur - need I say more.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I'm pretty sure Tom Heckert had nothing to do with the hiring of Pat Shurmur. That was all Holmgren.
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Nah I'm a Heckert fan...true, Holmgren had a big piece of the hiring say. Shurmur worked 8 years ??? with Heckert in Philly, they were buddies, I'm sure Shurmur had Heckerts approval.
Do I think it was HOLMGREN who limited our candidates to be under his AGENT whats his name??? Yep that was all Holmgren. So sad 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Nah I'm a Heckert fan...true, Holmgren had a big piece of the hiring say. Shurmur worked 8 years ??? with Heckert in Philly, they were buddies, I'm sure Shurmur had Heckerts approval.
Do I think it was HOLMGREN who limited our candidates to be under his AGENT whats his name??? Yep that was all Holmgren. So sad
What, Marty Mornhiweg and Perry Fewell wasn't a good enough search???
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because with shurmur, RG3 maybe wouldn't had gotten injured so much his 1st year, but he definitely would've been looking like 1st round bust because of the play calling.
So, this is still an argument? Most of you were using it to defend Weeden and TRich. I tried saying that changing coaches and scheme may help, but it wouldn't solve their problems. It didn't. Both guys stunk all on their own!
I have been trying to stay off this thread because I don't feel like arguing about it again, but I just love how Heckert made EVERY GOOD pick and The Big Show made EVERY BAD pick. 
Look, I despised The Big Show. I said early on that he was going to hurt our franchise and argued daily about it. I didn't despise Heckert. I thought you guys overrated him, but I thought he was okay. Some good picks, some bad. Terrible in free agency. Reached for players, but he also had some late round finds. So, while I liked him WAY MORE than The Big Show, I still can't condone rewriting history and placing all the blame on one guy and give all the praise to another. That's just lame.
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Heckert’s Full Draft Activity (Or as close as I could get)
2010
Round 1, Pick 7 Joe Haden -- Starting CB for Browns
Round 2, Pick 38 T.J. Ward-- Starting SS for Browns
Round 2, Pick 59 Montario Hardesty*-- Not with an NFL team
Round 3, Pick 85 Colt McCoy**-- Backup QB for 49ers
Round 3, Pick 92 Shawn Lavauo***-- Starting RG for Browns
Round 5, Pick 160 Larry Asante***-- Backup SS on Colts
Round 6, Pick 177 Carlton Mitchell-- Not with an NFL team
Round 6, Pick 186 Clifton Geathers****-- Not with an NFL team
*Traded picks 134 and 146 (both 5th rounders) to move from pick 71 to 59.
**Acquired pick from trading Kamerion Wimbley to Raiders.
***Acquired from Eric Mangini’s trade of 2009 that send Braylon Edwards to NYJ for pick 85 and 160.
****Browns traded CB Louis Leonard for pick 186
(Note: Browns traded their original fifth round pick selection (No. 137), fourth round selection (No. 105), and LB Alex Hall to the Eagles for CB Sheldon Brown and LB Chris Gocong
Bold indicates still on Browns’ roster
2011
Round 1, Pick 21 Phil Taylor*-- Starting NT for Browns
Round 2, Pick 37 Jabaal Sheard-- Starting OLB for Browns
Round 2, Pick 59 Greg Little**-- Starting WR for Browns
Round 4, Pick 102 Jordan Cameron-- Starting TE for Browns
Round 4, Pick 124 Owen Marecic**-- Not with an NFL team
Round 5, Pick 137 Buster Skrine-- Starting CB for Browns
Round 6, Pick 150 Jason Pinkston***--backup G for Browns
Round 7, Pick 248 Eric Hagg-- not with an NFL team
*Traded their 1st round pick (No. 6,) to Atlanta for their 1st (No. 27), 2nd (No. 59), and 4th (No. 124), as well as the Falcons' first and fourth round picks in 2012. Then Browns traded Picks 27 and 70 to Kansas City for Pick 21.
** Part of trade with Atlanta minus subsequent trade of 27 pick used for Phil Taylor.
***Traded two picks, 168 and 170, to Minnesota for pick 150.
(Note: Prior to start of 2010 season, Browns traded their seventh round selection pick 209 to the Seattle for QB Seneca Wallance)
Bold indicates still on Browns’ roster
2012
Round 1, Pick 3 Trent Richardson*-- Starting RB for Colts
Round 1, Pick 22 Brandon Weeden**-- Backup QB for Browns
Supplement Pick Josh Gordon
Round 2, Pick 37 Mitchell Schwartz-- Starting RT for Browns
Round 3, Pick 87 John Hughes***-- Backup DL for Browns
Round 4, Pick 100 Travis Benjamin-- Backup WR and Starting PR
Round 4, Pick 120 James-Michael Johnson***-- Backup LB for Chiefs
Round 5, Pick 160 Ryan Miller****-- Not with an NFL team
Round 6, Pick 204 Emmanual Acho-- Backup LB on Eagles
Round 6, Pick 205 Billy Winn-- Backup DE on Browns
Round 7, Pick 245 Trevin Wade-- Not with an NFL team
Round 7, Pick 247 Brad Smelley-- Not with an NFL team
*Browns traded picks Nos 4, 118, 139, 211 to Vikings for pick No. 3.
** Part of 2011 trade with Atlanta
*** Browns traded pick 67 to Broncos for picks 87 and 120.
**** Browns acquired the Broncos pick 160, as well as previous sixth-round selection and RB Peyton Hills in exchange for QB Brady Quinn during the 2010 offseason.
(Note: Browns drafted Josh Gordon in the second round of the supplemental draft, forfeiting their 2013 2nd round selection)
__________________________________
A couple of things jump out at me.......
(BAD) 2012 may end up being the worst draft in the three years Heckert was GM because of what happened in the first round....you need to have these picks be successful/productive in starting roles. This won’t happen in CLE. Speculation of Holmgren’s interference exists, but still the selections did not work out in Cleveland. Richardson’s trade to Indy may end up salvaging this selection, but that is the work of Banner, not the prior regime.
(GOOD) In players selected 4th round and later, 8/15 are still on NFL rosters (53%); 3 are starting for the Browns.
(GOOD) In players selected in Rounds 1& 2, 7 of the 10 guys drafted are starting for the Browns; 8 of 10 starting in the NFL, if you include Richardson.
I’ll add some bigger roster/FA moves as well....
(BAD) The switch of Usama Young for Mike Adams didn’t work out.
(GOOD)Letting go of fan favorites Eric Steinbach, Eric Wright, and Peyton Hillis were the right move.
(BAD) Jayme Mitchell was a flop. So were his comments about being the best pass rusher in his first year w/ us.
(GOOD) JMO, but Dmitri Patterson should still be on this team. To this day, I have no clue why we let him go.
(GOOD) Whatever happens to John Greco in terms of starting or being depth was a good move and this FO agreed w/ an extension of their own.
Also, executed contract extensions of Joe Thomas (+), Ahtyba Rubin (+), D’Qwell Jackson (+), Evan Moore (-) Overall, a lack of big names signings deterred fans. Not for me, but it was a legitimate question.
Overall, as some will assume, I think Heckert did far more good than bad. He wasn’t the greatest GM in the history of the NFL, but easily was the best we’ve had since ’99 and could easily rival other notable GMs IMO if someone did the work to compare. The youth foundation has been built and a couple more pieces are needed even with a scheme shift offensively and defensively. Also, the Browns are in a wonderful cap situation with flexibility to make key decision on players as a number of our own talent in the next couple of years are hitting FA and are worthy of keeping and providing long term extensions. We’ve never had this “good problem” since we’ve come back. The only major setback on this team was the prior regime's inability to find a franchise QB. Whether w/ FA signings or draft picks, it wasn’t done.
In my opinion (as I am sure it is others as well), a GM's most difficult task is identifying collegiate talent as it translates to the NFL and building an sustainable organization through the draft. I feel Tom Heckert did a good job doing that as evidence of the the overall early round success AND ability to recognize talent in the later rounds like Jordan Cameron, Billy Winn, Buster Skrine, and Travis Benjamin. All having substantive impact for the Browns.
Hopefully the new regime can add talent through the draft and build upon some of the promising players we already have, particularly the QB position. If that can happen, we may see this team explode on the scene sooner than later.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 11/03/13 12:04 PM.
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That's a well laid-out synopsis.
Would have liked to have seen what Heckert could have done over 5 years without that idiot Walrus pulling the strings but it's water under the bridge.
Heckert had a track record of success and a proven resume. I've no idea how much he contributed to the success of the Donks in only his first season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I was a fan of the work Tom Heckert did here in Cleveland. He did transform an old, cap strapped team, short on NFL talent. Into a young team with a nucleous of talented core players in 3 years.
There was a few misses though, Even though he removed a terrible head coach in Eric Mangini the hand picked replacement was possibly worse in Pat Shurmer. The influx of young talent did not land the team a franchise Quarterback. The 2 choosen both seemed to be panic picks. The worse decision made by Heckert as GM seemed to all be made in panic mode.
1) The targeting of Ben Tate and then the knee jerk reaction after Tate was selected of trading away picks to move up and select Montario Hadesty.
2) Trading up again to select Colt McCoy after passing on him in earlier rounds.
3) Moving up 1 spot to select Trent Richardson when he should have been available at 4.
4) Drafting Brandon Weeden in the 1st round when at 29 years old he could have been had in the 2nd round just to make sure they got a Quarterback.
Heckert did his best work in the draft when he stayed in his raft position and selected the BPA
Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Shaun Lauvuo, Greg Little, Jordan Cameron, Buster Skrine, Jason Pinkston, Mitchell Schwartz, John Hughes, Travis Benjamin, and Billy Winn.
He did have 2 panic picks work out in tradinh up for Phil Taylor and selecting Josh Gordon in the supplemental draft.
Overall I think he will be remembered by building the foundation of the teams return to contention but wasn't able to finish the job do to his failure to find a franchise QB and selection of coach.
Last edited by Day of the Dawg; 11/03/13 12:51 PM.
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No offense intended man, but that's what I'm talking about when I say it's unfair to saddle Heckert with everything when Holmgren was pulling the strings.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Look I am a Heckert fan but he will be remembered for those moves. He was the GM and even if he was over ruled by the President of the team the GM gets evaluated for those decisions.
Just like Lombardi will be remembered for selecting Jamarcus Russell. The people who hate on Heckert and put rose colored glasses on for the new FO always point out that Russell was an Al Davis decision. Bottom line is Lombardi was GM when Russell was selected and Heckert was the GM during the misses by the Browns to select a franchise QB.
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Hehe...everyone in the NFL knew that it didn't matter who the GM was in Oakland. Al Davis ran the drafts.
The people in the know who watched it all unfold in Cleveland understand Heckert got trumped by Holmgren. It's not fair to judge Heckert on those moves without including the name of Holmgren.
Should Heckert carry his own weight? Absolutely, but it's now common knowledge that the Walrus not only forced the move on Weeden but McCoy as well.
I'd go on record and state that if either of those two bums had become franchise QB's, there's a good chance Heckert and Holmgren still have their jobs. I say that to exemplify just how much of a role Holmgren played in the formation of this team, so to saddle Heckert with everything isn't quite equitable.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe Cleveland traded up to get him. I thought he fell to us at 85...the pick we got when we traded Wimbley.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I agree with you if McCoy or Weeden would have turned out to be franchise QB's they both would still be employed in Cleveland today. They didn't and that is the bottom line why neither is here.
I have much more faith in Heckert making draft picks vs Lombardi. Just look at the corner backs selected by each team. Buster Skrine was a 5th round selection and he is starting to make a pretty nice nitche for himself opposite Haden. He struggled last season when Haden was out against #1 wide receivers. McFadden cannot even sniff the field as a 3rd round selection. That is a Lombardi trade mark.
He does have a pretty good grasp of other teams back up players. Lombardi seems to have the ability to see players in NFL practices and preseason and determine where that player is valuable. He has always been terrible in the draft and cannot see college talent and see that value on an NFL team.
He is to GM's what Brandon Weeden is to QB's. He needs to see the player come open instead of throwing that player open. Lombardi has to see the player at this level and cannot see that players talent translate to this level.
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Quote:
No offense intended man, but that's what I'm talking about when I say it's unfair to saddle Heckert with everything when Holmgren was pulling the strings.
That's a common assumption but outside of the McCoy pick (where holmgren himself said he told heckert to take him), I don't remember hearing any confirmation that Holmgren pulled many strings..
Not sure where this comes from , but if you have some facts, please enlighten me..
Oh,, and your opinions, like mine, aren't facts!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The other side of the coin is that just because you aren't aware of a fact that doesn't make it just an opinion, D.
It's a well-known fact now that Holmgren pushed Heckert into taking Weeden. The quotes have made their rounds here numerous times. I'm not interested in doing the homework again.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
The other side of the coin is that just because you aren't aware of a fact that doesn't make it just an opinion, D.
It's a well-known fact now that Holmgren pushed Heckert into taking Weeden. The quotes have made their rounds here numerous times. I'm not interested in doing the homework again.
You know Toad, I'm on this board all the time and frankly, it's NOT A WELL KNOWN FACT to me that Holmgren pushed Heckert into taking Weeden.
Now, that doesn't mean that I remember each and every tidbit that floats by, but I don't remember seeing anything but fan or media speculation that that is what happened.That isn't proof.
And that's not to say it didn't happen.
Again, if you have proof, share it. I can accept being wrong.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
The other side of the coin is that just because you aren't aware of a fact that doesn't make it just an opinion, D.
It's a well-known fact now that Holmgren pushed Heckert into taking Weeden. The quotes have made their rounds here numerous times. I'm not interested in doing the homework again.
You know Toad, I'm on this board all the time and frankly, it's NOT A WELL KNOWN FACT to me that Holmgren pushed Heckert into taking Weeden.
Now, that doesn't mean that I remember each and every tidbit that floats by, but I don't remember seeing anything but fan or media speculation that that is what happened.That isn't proof.
And that's not to say it didn't happen.
Again, if you have proof, share it. I can accept being wrong.
In terms of any comments directly from Holmgren's mouth about 2012 draft trumping, the only other comments I am aware are here:
"I said, 'Tom, do you want to do this?' " Holmgren said after the draft. "He said, 'I don't think I do. I think it's too much or too strong or whatever.'
"Then I said, 'Well, we may have to.' Then he goes, 'Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won't do it.'
"I said, 'OK, then I might have to tell you.' "
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...don-weeden-pick
The only issue is it doesn't definitively say Weeden or Richardson, but it does show he pulled rank.
Also, here is something else from Tony Grossi. It's been posted on here before but it is not from the mouth of Holmgren, rather what sources told him. It's from one of his Hey Tony articles responding to a question. It reads:
Hey Tony: I was a big Tom Heckert fan as I thought he was the best Browns GM since Ernie Accorsi. Recently I have been taking heat from my friends over 2012 draft picks Weeden and Richardson. We know Holmgren took responsibility for picking Colt McCoy. Who was the main thrust behind the Weeden pick, Holmgren or Heckert? The media and fans certainly put pressure on the Browns before the draft to choose Richardson. Because of the pressure, I always thought the TRich choice was a "higher-up" choice as well. With this in mind, who was most responsible for the Richardson pick, Lerner, Holmgren or Heckert? If possible I would prefer you NOT to answer these were group decisions.
-- Dan, North Royalton, OH
Hey Dan: To the best of my knowledge, here is how the Richardson and Weeden picks went down: Pat Shurmur and Heckert were the driving force on Richardson. Shurmur wanted a reliable, workhorse back after the weekly soap opera that had become the Browns’ backfield situation in 2011. However, Heckert was not in favor of trading three picks to move up one spot to select Richardson. He would have called Minnesota’s bluff. Holmgren ordered the trade up. Heckert and Shurmur were not that hot on Weeden. That one is totally on Holmgren all the way. In fact, I’ve been told by more than one source that when the Browns’ turn came up at No. 22, Holmgren popped into the draft room and ordered the selection of Weeden. The draft room was stunned. Heckert felt Weeden would be available in the second round.
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=18&post_id=22591
I don't normally agree w/ beat writers opinion on things but I do think they have sources that feed them legit knowledge, but take this for what it's worth. I know this has circulated the board before so sorry for the repetition.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Thanks MB, Not sure it proves anything about Weeden, It might be he was referring to TRich. But be that as it may, Holmgrens words in an article about Weeden kinda lends credence to Holmgren pushing Heckerts buttons to make Weeden the selection.
Still, we'll never know for sure.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You're right. It doesn't lend itself in identifying which player they were referring to, at least in the NFL.com article. Actually, I meant to ask this initially-- I wasn't sure anything existed discussing Holmgren choosing McCoy. I thought all the information available was in regards to 2012. Out of curiosity, where did you see that?
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Heckert -- The Good, Bad, and Ugly
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