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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
My only concern with overpaying a guy is the precedent it sets...regardless of how much cap space we have left.
That said...I'd like us to re-sign Mack and Ward...even tho I think Ward is overrated.
I don't think it matters unless you are talking similar positions. I mean, comparing a CB with a Center? The numbers won't match. Comparing two CB's, yeah, I can see that.
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I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
Nearly every OL group in the NFL playoffs had a lower grade as unit than the Browns and yet, they went to the playoffs.
Everyone seems to think that you need All-Pro players at every position to be successful. That just isn't the case.
LT - Thomas (perennial Pro Bowler, deserving or not)
LG - Greco (competent)
C - Mack (perennial Pro Bowler, deserving or not)
RG - Lauvao (incompetent)
RT - Schwartz (subpar)
You can let Mack and Lauvao walk and still get quality players there without breaking the bank. A quality LG might actually help Schwartz out.
I posted the list of free agent centers available. The Browns could easily sign one that's competent enough to do the job.
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Who has said we need a Pro Bowl player at every position on the OL? Name one person.
I don't agree w/you in regards to Mack being so easily replaced. I also disagree w/you on the importance of a center. We also disagree on how important cohesion is for an OL. Continuity can aide in the cohesion.
How is a LG going to make Schwartz better?
I think we need an upgrade a guard, especially our RG.
I am also not as sold as many are w/Schwartz. It would be nice to upgrade there rather than plug in a reject at center after losing Mack.
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So, narrow it down for me, tell me who is better than Mack and can be gotten for less than Mack!
You don't have to improve the center position, only get value for it. How about I give you a few that could do the job, for cheaper and you wouldn't notice the drop off.
Brian de la Puente could be had for far less. He was working under a 1 year deal with New Orleans that notched him just over $2 million. For what it's worth, he got playoff experience along with it. And I think that's worth a lot.
Cody Wallace filled in for Pouncey in Putzburgh and did a decent job starting 4 games for them.
I would add that Dietrich-Smith wouldn't be bad.
Spencer wouldn't be bad either. He was the Tennessee backup at the C and both G positions for the Titans last season, starting 9 games.
McGlynn played in 15 games for the Colts last season, starting 14 of them.
There are more of them on the list too. Would I pay Mack those dollars? Hell no!
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If we are going to seriously consider starting a rookie QB, then re-signing Mack should be a no-brainer. Not only does he help keep pressure out of the face of the QB, he is also excellent with making the line calls, which will help a young QB immensely.
I think that we need a Guard and a RT. I actually think that Greco might be able to slide to the right side if we sign a solid LG type in free agency.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah, I agree w/everything you said in that last post.
I do think that our FO will try to keep Mack. I am just worried that he might want out no matter what we offer him. Heck, even before the season, he said he was not open to working out a new contract before or during the season.
He may have said that only because he wanted to concentrate on football, but it struck me as a bad sign when he said it.
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He's been a really committed player though. (even played a week after having an appendectomy) He has said that he would "absolutely" give the Browns right of last refusal on any deal he could find. I see no reason to doubt his word. Plus, there have been other players who have been uncomfortable worrying about contract details during the season, I think that I prefer that to a guy like Peyton Hillis, who worried about his contract to the extent that his play suffered badly.
Hopefully the Browns have a solid read on Mack, and can franchise him if necessary. They could even use the transition tag, which would automatically give them right of first refusal.That would be an average of the top 10 salaries instead of top 5 ......and could be the way we go. IIRC, the NFL has outlawed the "poison pills" that some teams used to use in these cases, so that might not be a concern.
Should be interesting to see how it all works out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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anarchy, two of those teams have seasoned QB's. Luck was rocked the last two seasons.
If reports are true, Shanahan is the new OC. I assume zone blocking is scheme of choice. You feel confident having someone else besides Mack assisting a rookie QB?
I normally would agree with your argument, but if I'm starting a rookie QB, assuming, I want the most talent on the OL I can get. After all I want to save the wear and tear on my QB.
With Browns current OL, you do realize we have not had a starting QB survive a season. You really think downsizing is wise?
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I hope you are right. I definitely don't want to lose the guy.
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Who has said we need a Pro Bowl player at every position on the OL? Name one person.
I don't agree w/you in regards to Mack being so easily replaced. I also disagree w/you on the importance of a center. We also disagree on how important cohesion is for an OL. Continuity can aide in the cohesion.
How is a LG going to make Schwartz better?
I think we need an upgrade a guard, especially our RG.
I am also not as sold as many are w/Schwartz. It would be nice to upgrade there rather than plug in a reject at center after losing Mack.
I said that 'everyone seems to think', not 'everyone thinks', and I did so for a reason.
Okay, you don't want to let Mack walk (although he can if he wants) and money doesn't seem (there's that word again) to be a factor. That is, until it is a factor when you realize that you can't re-sign Haden next year (and many think he's a god at CB). What happens then? Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor and Ismaail'y Kitchen will all be FAs next year. That's 3 of your DTs in one season. Add Jabaal Sheard & Buster Skrine (so, both starting CBs will be FAs). Toss in Jordan Cameron (and Hoyer if you want) on the offensive side of the ball. You'll also have two RBs added to the ranks of Browns FAs next year with Ogbonnaya and Dion Lewis.
Remember, you're going to want to sign some of these guys. I suspect that Haden, Cameron, Taylor, Rubin, Sheard and Skrine will all be targets. You won't be able to keep them all but you could probably keep one more of them if you don't overpay for players this year.
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I said that 'everyone seems to think', not 'everyone thinks',
Again, I would much rather keep Mack than Ward.
Reubin will probably not be retained. Big Phil better improve. I wonder if DQ will be back. Weeden will probably be dumped. Campbell might go, as well. We may have seen the last of Little. The rest shouldn't be a problem.
Here is what I am saying..............I think Mack is way more valuable than some of you guys do. You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
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anarchy, two of those teams have seasoned QB's. Luck was rocked the last two seasons.
Luck is going to take his licks regardless because of his play style. He's very much like Favre and he did have the youngest starting OL in the league. I don't think there was an OL with 3 years experience among the whole lot of them.
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If reports are true, Shanahan is the new OC. I assume zone blocking is scheme of choice. You feel confident having someone else besides Mack assisting a rookie QB?
Yes I do.
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I normally would agree with your argument, but if I'm starting a rookie QB, assuming, I want the most talent on the OL I can get. After all I want to save the wear and tear on my QB.
How do you know who the QB is going to be? And how are you going to decide before knowing what rookie QB is going to be on the roster? I don't think that it's going to be nearly the problem that folks seem to think that it'll be.
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With Browns current OL, you do realize we have not had a starting QB survive a season. You really think downsizing is wise?
Downsizing? I wanted the Browns to sign Levitre and Warmack. They both ended up in Tennessee. We could have probably gotten them both. I wanted to beef up the G positions but it seems that it wasn't a priority but I actually like the Gilkey kid better than Lauvao.
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Here is what I am saying..............I think Mack is way more valuable than some of you guys do. You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
I understand the reasons you put forth. I just don't weigh Mack's abilities as favorably as you do. When you're trying to put a team together, you have to be cognizant of the 'value' portion of the player because it does all count. Too many people think that these contracts are paid with Monopoly money. GMs have to treat these dollar amounts as if they actually were coming out of their own pockets.
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Downsizing? I wanted the Browns to sign Levitre and Warmack. They both ended up in Tennessee. We could have probably gotten them both. I wanted to beef up the G positions but it seems that it wasn't a priority but I actually like the Gilkey kid better than Lauvao.
Downsizing? Yes. Replace a pro bowler with someone who is not.
I'm a firm believer you need two tackles and a center to make an effective line evenly distribute talent. As stated above, with the influx of 3-4, centers have become more important. With 2 out 3 AFCN components playing 3-4, you need talent at center as well as LT.
I do agree Gilkey gives Lauvao a run at RG. I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving Schwartz a run at RT.
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We replaced the injured LeCharles Bentley with Hank Fraley and had one of the best Olines in the league...(After adding Joe T and Steinbach obviously... but I was focusing on the center position)
Last edited by ThatGuy; 02/01/14 05:24 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
5-11
5-11
4-12
5-11
4-12
Since Mack was drafted in 2009, these are the Cleveland Browns record each year.
What beat are you hoping to avoid missing?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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The beat that allows our QBs a ton of time to throw the football. Which beat did you think I was referring to?
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Then why wouldn't you want to keep Schwartz? He's part of the same line.
I don't know. I wouldn't mind signing Mack, but I don't care either way. I'm not a big fan of creating holes, but I don't think we should act like he has been a difference maker either.
Someone mentioned Fraley replacing Bentley and us having a great OL still. Funny that it coincided with the best year a Browns QB had since the return. So which is it? The center makes the team better or the QB makes everyone better.
I know he's a good player. I just don't think we should fret if he leaves. I'll be happy if we resign him. I'll be indifferent if we don't.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't think that Schwartz is that good. We gave him a lot of help this year. We put a TE over there a lot and even chipped his guy w/our RBs.
I am not asking you to agree w/me about Mack, but it is my opinion that he is a very fine center. He is not easily replaceable. I think we should concentrate on upgrading our RG and perhaps our RT rather than replacing one of the best centers in the league.
And Rish...........don't act like I am stupid. Of course, the QB is more important. I am not suggesting that in the slightest and if you look on the QB threads, you will see that I think it is imperative to get either Teddy or Manziel. I am in favor of moving up to number two to get it done.
With that said, I don't want our QB to be getting killed like Luck is in Indy. We need to keep our OL at it's current level and maybe even improve it somewhat. We can do that by upgrading the RG position and perhaps the RT position. Losing Mack will not help us in the slightest and it could cause major problems for our QB.
Again, it's just my opinion and I am not asking you to agree. I just think Mack is way more valuable than a guy like Ward........and it ain't even close in my book.
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We replaced the injured LeCharles Bentley with Hank Fraley and had one of the best Olines in the league...(After adding Joe T and Steinbach obviously... but I was focusing on the center position)
Dough Boy wasn't a mediocre center simply at the end of his career. Fraley was a top center in league in his early years. Having Tucker on the right side helped too.
Browns did have three top OL. I prefer a center over a guard as one of the three. To me, I think guards are the easier position to fill. I don't agree with Anarchy you can bring anyone at center. A center just doesn't hand the ball back anymore. They do toss it back. A center is also the OL play caller. He also needs to execute with a man in front. I don't feel it is as easy a position as it once was.
Anarchy, I'm not saying you are wrong. You make a valued argument. I simply don't agree. I am a firm believer of balance. Having two tackles and center creates balance. I also believe you can do much more with a athletic pulling guards than you can do with the other positions.
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I don't think you are dumb. I know you know the significance of the QB position.
We just have a difference of opinion on Mack.
I could really care less if they replaced every single position on the field if they can find us a QB.
Mike Adams is the starting free safety for the Super Bowl favorite Denver Broncos. Wrap your head around that one.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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was that a shot at mike adams or a shot at our team?
cause i think a ton of people on this board has said, mike adams is no bum.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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JMO..
I grade in 3 tiers..
Above NFL avg
NFL avg
Below NFL avg
IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
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IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
By indicating these guys are average to a little above, you are basically stating that roughly 80% of the centers or strong safeties in the league can equal the production of Mack and Ward. If this is he case, you have a high probability replacing either one at a cheaper price. Is this what you want to say?
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IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
By indicating these guys are average to a little above, you are basically stating that roughly 80% of the centers or strong safeties in the league can equal the production of Mack and Ward. If this is he case, you have a high probability replacing either one at a cheaper price. Is this what you want to say?
Not even remotely close to what I am saying.. I'm saying these two perform at a high enough level that I want to retain both of them.
The RG is the position I want to address.. IMO our RG play is awful and may be a part of / related to our performance at RT.
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Downsizing? Yes. Replace a pro bowler with someone who is not.
Or getting someone that knows how to play the position without what I see as worthless accolades. Mack was on a 4-12 team. I don't know what to say other than that.
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I'm a firm believer you need two tackles and a center to make an effective line evenly distribute talent. As stated above, with the influx of 3-4, centers have become more important. With 2 out 3 AFCN components playing 3-4, you need talent at center as well as LT.
Okay. I'm a firm believer that you run the ball between the tackles and you need good guard play to run the ball effectively.
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I do agree Gilkey gives Lauvao a run at RG. I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving Schwartz a run at RT.
Gilkey is already better than Lauvao is and Lauvao won't even be on the roster next year. He may float around the league but he'll never start in the NFL again unless there is an injury to the OG ahead of him on the depth chart.
I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving him some competition at RT. I just think that the Browns will either draft a RT or will sign one in FA. Faulk may or may not get his shot, but he could hardly be worse than Schwartz. Oneil Cousins could give Mitchell Schwartz stiff competition at the spot. Any drunken & fat slob off the streets of Cleveland might give him a run for his money.
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I know he's a good player. I just don't think we should fret if he leaves. I'll be happy if we re-sign him. I'll be indifferent if we don't.
This is my viewpoint except that I would add a qualifier. I would be happy if we re-signed Mack at a reasonable cost. I don't want to harm the team's chances to improve elsewhere if they re-sign him. If Mack agrees to a reasonable offer, then re-sign him. If he wants more than $4 million or so per year, let him walk.
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Or getting someone that knows how to play the position without what I see as worthless accolades. Mack was on a 4-12 team. I don't know what to say other than that.
Per this definition, Joe T is expendable too.
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Okay. I'm a firm believer that you run the ball between the tackles and you need good guard play to run the ball effectively.
You don't need good quality guards to run. Browns, with Hillis, ran the ball with Pink and Lauvao.
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Gilkey is already better than Lauvao is and Lauvao won't even be on the roster next year. He may float around the league but he'll never start in the NFL again unless there is an injury to the OG ahead of him on the depth chart.
I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving him some competition at RT. I just think that the Browns will either draft a RT or will sign one in FA. Faulk may or may not get his shot, but he could hardly be worse than Schwartz. Oneil Cousins could give Mitchell Schwartz stiff competition at the spot. Any drunken & fat slob off the streets of Cleveland might give him a run for his money.
If you think Cousins is better than any OL on the Browns or NFL, all I can say is set your beer down you have reached your limit!
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Per this definition, Joe T is expendable too.
Yep, but for a different reason. His contract isn't expiring.
If a team came to the Browns offering an RG3 deal for Joe Thomas, the Browns should take it.
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You don't need good quality guards to run. Browns, with Hillis, ran the ball with Pink and Lauvao.
That's true, and with a turnstile at RT too. But Pinkston's and Lauvao's problems aren't in run blocking but pass blocking.
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If you think Cousins is better than any OL on the Browns or NFL, all I can say is set your beer down you have reached your limit!
Schwartz is really that bad. He wasn't an upgrade at the position of RT and a 2nd rounder was burned on him.
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You don't have to improve the center position, only get value for it.
I'm sure who ever our QB is next season will see it that way 
Brian de la Puente has been with 5 different teams (six if you count the 49ers twice) he was undrafted and hasn't been able to stick anywhere. And you want him to replace Mack? I don't think so.
Cody Wallace has been with 6 teams (seven if you count Detroit twice) and can't stick? And you want to replace Mack with him? I don't think so.
Evan Dietrich-Smith has been with 2 teams (three if you cound the packers twice) and can't stick. I don't think so.
I'll stop there as a pattern is developing. You appear to be more interested in paying less, than you are about who the best we can get is.
Look, if we loose Mack in FA, then any one of those guys could be decent to be brought in.
But if the lease on your Maybach is up and you have the money to buy it out, you don't go get a Volkswagen and delude yourself into thinking you got the better end of that deal..
While I'm in agreement with you that not every position along the Oline needs to be all pro or anything, you do need competent people in those roles. If you got one of the best and you have the pockets to pay, you pay. End of discussion.
#GMSTRONG
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Schwartz is not a plodder...he has good feet. What you have to remember is because of Joe T a lot of teams concentrated on attacking the other side with over loads and/or putting the best edge rusher there. But his feet or not of the Pashos variety. I really would love to get his brother in FA and make them a tandem...but I'm not so sure if Geoff??? has Zone blocking scheme skills - I know he is tough but not sure on his lateral movement. Pinkston and Greco are not the best at it either.
I would like to draft that kid from Alabama (OT but he is quick and has good feet) move him in between Joe T and Mack. Oh and if we are doing this Zone Blocking Scheme...signing Mack is an IMPERATIVE he is perfect for it! Lewis n Baker fit in nicely too. The Texans didn't utilize a FB but went with Casey in their best years as an H-Back. Btw don't forget that 290 lb TE we had on our roster all year who actually got some reps at the end of the season.
Just thinking out loud.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Schwartz is really that bad. He wasn't an upgrade at the position of RT and a 2nd rounder was burned on him.
Just a matter of opinion but I disagree. Although I do not find him to be at the place I would have liked him to be at this point, I don't think he is "really bad".
First, he was definitely an upgrade when he was drafted. Remember Tony Pashos?? Ugh, that guy was slow couldn't pass protect for the life of him and was injured a good portion he was here.
I guess at this point, I would label as average as a starter....hopefully with the potential to improve. What's concerning to me is a couple of things...
In both years, he has started off poorly and improved as the season went on. Originally, I chalked up his slow start during his rookie season because of just that..he was a rookie. As he closed out the season, he had played really, really well earning PFF accolades if you like that sort of thing:
Tackles: Matt Kalil, MIN (LT) (+15.9) and Mitchell Schwartz, CLV (RT) (+16.1)
It’s uncanny how similar the numbers look for Kalil and Schwartz. Both made the team on the strength of top-notch pass blocking, as Kalil graded at +15.6 and Schwartz at +15.1, while both have room to improve as run blockers (Kalil -2.4, Schwartz -2.9). They finished among the Top 22 tackles in the league, making for an easy selection as the bookend tackles on the All-Rookie Team. 2012 PFF All-Rookie Team
But then his second season, against top DEs, he stuggled in pass protection early on. He did improve but not at the pace he did his rookie year IMO. However I still think he is more than adequate but hope he continues to improve. But if he doesn't improve, team will continue to exploit him and but their best pass rushers on him weekly.
Could we technically upgrade on him? Sure we can but I'd rather upgrade the guards first, re-sign Mack, Ward, and others, and perhaps address other positions via FA. So in short, RT would be further down the list, at least for me.
I think are some questions to be raised about Schwartz's play last year:
- Did Turner's offense weigh heavily on Tackles to pass pro longer?
- Did Weeden simply hold the ball too long?
- Did Schwartz only improve with blocking help?
- Was Schwartz gradual improvement in the second half all on him?
- Will a new offensive scheme suit him better?
It's probably a combo of many of those things, I just don't give up on him yet. I wait a year and address other positions in the offseason.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Do you remember the scouting report I did on him the year he came out? That was the year I wanted us to trade down and grab a bevy of players in a strong draft. Instead, we gave up picks for TRich, reached for Weeden, and drafted Schwartz too early.  I gave Schwartz a 4th grade and wanted us to take him in that round. A few points that I remember writing about him. Positives: ---Excellent size ---Versatile, played both LT and RT and could play inside ---Good bloodlines ---Can finish blocks ---Good in a short area ---Experienced ---Reliable ---Intelligent Negatives: --Plays w/poor balance----chest is too far past his thighs --Reacts poorly to blitzes in general and delayed blitzes in particular --Back injury that would need to be checked-out --Struggles in wide-open spaces, such as when the rusher loops around in a stunt or on a blitz --Doesn't shift his weight well I haven't seen much to change my mind about any of that, other than he has shown no signs of the back injury being an issue. Again, I would have never drafted him that high. I'm not sure if we will try to upgrade him or not. I would say that it is a distinct possibility. I am not as high on his brother as most of the people around here. Here are some free agents I like: Jared Veldheer---RT from Oakland. He is coming off an injury but is a fine player. I believe he is only 26. Jon Asamoah, G from KC. Another guy who was limited by injury, but is a very good player and excels at run blocking. Brandon Alberts---T from KC. This is the guy they didn't know what to do with after drafting Eric Fisher. He is a very good tackle and once again played well this year. Zane Beadles, G from Denver. Very good run blocker. Manning was hardly sacked this year despite all those passing attempts. One or two of these guys could really give our line a boost, especially if we keep Mack.
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I know you don't care what I think, but that is a really good post. Nice job. 
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Quote:
I gave Schwartz a 4th grade and wanted us to take him in that round. A few points that I remember writing about him.
So, had we taken him in the 4th round, would you have been ok with him? Why? value maybe?
I don't get this value thing.. Sounds like a made up word by draftniks. You know, the ones that talk about it but have either never done it or can't do it.
It's funny, I've never heard a GM of a team talk about value. I suppose there could be a valid reason for that. Not sure what it would be, but maybe there is one.
But I guess that's just me.. the guy you want to ignore. so what's it matter what I say.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Nice football post.
Do you get some perverse pleasure from hijacking threads?
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I don't know about you Vers, but his back injury was a big concern to me when we drafted him. I don't like big guys like that having problems like that. It's almost like having bad foot problems. I'm glad he hasn't had problems with it.
FYI Jon Asamoah got benched for Mitchell Schwartz brother Geoff.
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Yeah, back injuries are a big concern. Sometimes I wonder if that his why his bending at the knees seem so stiff which leads to him getting off balance, but then I think that we would hear something about his back if it was really bothering him.
I thought Asamoah missed time due to injury rather than being benched?
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I'm betting things come together for him this year.
Some different coaching, different scheme and another year under his belt.
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I read recently that Turner's offense called for deeper QB drops, which would necesarily require holding blocks longer, and also leave both OT on an island. Joe Thomas is pretty good with that but I think Schwartz struggled a bit. The problem was made worse by inept RG play and the absence of a true FB or RB who blocks well. I'm hoping he'll rebound in an offense that might not demand as much of its OT's.
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