LINKCleveland Browns safety and potential free agent T.J. Ward: 'I definitely want to be here'
By Tom Reed, Northeast Ohio Media Group
October 31, 2013 at 2:51 AM
BEREA, Ohio – T.J. Ward believes good times are in the near future for the Browns and he wants to be part of them.
The strong safety, in the final season of a four-year, $5.088 million deal, said he prefers to remain in the organization that drafted him in 2010. Ward and center Alex Mack are the team’s biggest potential free agents.
“I definitely want to be here,” Ward told cleveland.com. “If I could stay here my whole career that would be great, but I understand it’s a business.”
He said his representatives have not had detailed discussions with Browns management.
“I do think about it, but I wouldn’t say I’m worried,” Ward said. “You always think about your future. I’m just trying to focus on finishing the season off strong.”
Ward is the second-highest ranked safety behind New England’s Devin McCourty, according to ProFootballFocus.com, and tops against the run. One league talent evaluator told cleveland.com that Ward is a top-five safety in the AFC, and rates him better against the run than in pass coverage. In a passing league, however, the evaluator is interested to see how Browns’ management weighs that factor.
The Oregon product is second on the Browns with 65 tackles and tied for the lead with two interceptions. He ranks third on the team in missed tackles with eight, according to ProFootballFocus.com.
“I think he brings a real attitude to our defense,” coach Rob Chudzinski said. “He’s tough, he plays tough. ... That’s what you need to do on defense. He’s learned the system and really stepped into a leadership role in terms of on the back end and understanding what to do, getting guys lined up and doing all of the things you would want a safety to do.”
Despite the Browns’ 3-5 record and no winning seasons since 2007, Ward sees hope for the coming years.
“I’ve been here through the bad times, I just want to see the good times,” Ward said. “I know they’re coming and we have a good team. The future is bright here. ... Everyone wants longevity and success and I want to get them here. I think that’s coming here and I want to be a part of it.”
We will definitely learn our FO's opinions on our "previous" core players ... Ward/Mack/Haden especially.
It will be interesting. If I had to guess: we'll resign Haden and Ward and let Mack go, which would shift Greco to C (hence why we resigned him)
Will be ticked if we lose Mack . . .
I can't remember a time where guys were actually still on the team at the end of their rookie contracts LOL. Ward has been much more impressive this season against the pass. I'd like to resign both.
Alex Mack was one of the guys they deemed untouchable after they traded Richardson (along with Joe Thomas). So I am assuming they would like him back.
I would think that we try and re-sign both. If not both then re-sign one and slap the franchise tag on the other.
I was unaware we were allowed to use our franchise tag on players other than kickers. That is allowed?
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we'll resign Haden and Ward and let Mack go
Why? I know we haven't had a ton of above average players around here, but I will never understand some people's fascination with letting a good player go so we can create a hole so we can hope to fill it some other way.
Thinking the team will do something is different than wanting them to do something.
Just clicking
Last off season, I remember reading some posters on here, or some radio talk show callers saying that the team was making mistakes not spending the money they had to get some solid Free Agents..
Look at the situation now. we have a ton of money to pay for our own guys to keep the core group together.
The money to take care of our own is there.
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we'll resign Haden and Ward and let Mack go
Why? I know we haven't had a ton of above average players around here, but I will never understand some people's fascination with letting a good player go so we can create a hole so we can hope to fill it some other way.
I never said that was was I wanted to do, I'm just taking a guess as to what the FO will do. If it were up to me, I'd re-sign all 3 because we can't create any more holes ... but IMO, I think the FO signed Greco with a plan in place.
the fo is going to re-sign FO, ward has given them no reason not to. he is an essential part of our core, and a lot of experts with good analysis have have as a top 5/10 safety.
the FO knows that, the coaches know that. the national media knows that.
but of course, we got fans who yet again, want to get rid of good players for hopes in dreams.
makes absolutely no sense.
The national media "knows" it, huh?
Here is how I look at those three guys:
It's a big year for all three.They must play well to get a decent offer. Thus far, I think all three have.
Ward: I think he is very good against the run, although he lowers his head and whiffs at times when he is trying to tackle in space. But, he has made a lot of big tackles behind or at the LOS this year. His pass coverage in general is below average. He sometimes blows coverages so bad that most people don't even realize it is him blowing it and blame the closest guy. I do know zone coverages and I know he has been out of position too many times. With that said, I think he is a very solid player w/the potential to get even better. I think the FO makes a legit effort to retain Ward, but will balk if Ward's contract demands are too high, as in---he wants to be paid as one of the top safeties in the league.
Haden: This is a huge year for him. I know people have loved this guy from day one, but he has been a "bit" of a disappointment, until this year. I love how he has stepped up his game and is finally covering the other team's #1 WR on the majority of plays. I don't think he is a true shutdown guy, but he is a very good player. Again, I think we try to resign this guy. We may even give him a really lucrative contract, but will back-off he wants to be paid as a top 3 corner.
Mack: A solid player. Keeps his mouth shut and shows up every week. Solid center that we retain unless he wants to be paid as a top 3 or 4 guy. We could move Grecco there if we have to, but I suspect we hope to keep Mack.
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The national media "knows" it, huh?
Here is how I look at those three guys:
It's a big year for all three.They must play well to get a decent offer. Thus far, I think all three have.
Ward: I think he is very good against the run, although he lowers his head and whiffs at times when he is trying to tackle in space. But, he has made a lot of big tackles behind or at the LOS this year. His pass coverage in general is below average. He sometimes blows coverages so bad that most people don't even realize it is him blowing it and blame the closest guy. I do know zone coverages and I know he has been out of position too many times. With that said, I think he is a very solid player w/the potential to get even better. I think the FO makes a legit effort to retain Ward, but will balk if Ward's contract demands are too high, as in---he wants to be paid as one of the top safeties in the league.
Haden: This is a huge year for him. I know people have loved this guy from day one, but he has been a "bit" of a disappointment, until this year. I love how he has stepped up his game and is finally covering the other team's #1 WR on the majority of plays. I don't think he is a true shutdown guy, but he is a very good player. Again, I think we try to resign this guy. We may even give him a really lucrative contract, but will back-off he wants to be paid as a top 3 corner.
Mack: A solid player. Keeps his mouth shut and shows up every week. Solid center that we retain unless he wants to be paid as a top 3 or 4 guy. We could move Grecco there if we have to, but I suspect we hope to keep Mack.
they do, and are more often correct than anybody on this board. including you.
Haden isn't a top guy yet. For one thing, he simply does not create turnovers. He sometimes gets in position to make a turnover, but cannot catch the ball. To be an elite guy, he has to start creating turnovers.
That said, he is very good. I look at a guy many wanted us to draft, Dee Milliner, and he is an absolute mess. He allowed something like 5 pass completions for well over 100 yards last week. I read something about him being benched again.
He's going to start against the Saints. That should be interesting to see.
Anyway, back to Haden, I think that he is a very good corner, but I don't yet see elite. He sure looks better than another high draft pick like Milliner has looked so far though.
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they do, and are more often correct than anybody on this board. including you.
Prove it, mouth!
I will start the process:
I said TRich was solid. I said he was not explosive. I said he lacked instincts, decisiveness. and vision. The national media said he was the best back since AP. Who was right?
I said Weeden should have been a 4th round pick. I said he couldn't read coverages. I said he was inaccurate after being pressured. I said spread qbs have a hard time transitioning to the NFL. I said that Shurmur's lame offense was not the real reason why Weeden stunk and that Weeds would not flourish under Norv. The national media disagreed.
Now, what say you, Mouth?
Hey, Miliner was my number one guy for us to take. He isn't playing well.
It appears I was wrong.
See how easy that is, guys? You are wrong and you admit it. Care to try it.
Oh, and YTown.............I am not talking to you, so don't lay an egg.
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Haden isn't a top guy yet. For one thing, he simply does not create turnovers. He sometimes gets in position to make a turnover, but cannot catch the ball. To be an elite guy, he has to start creating turnovers.
That said, he is very good. I look at a guy many wanted us to draft, Dee Milliner, and he is an absolute mess. He allowed something like 5 pass completions for well over 100 yards last week. I read something about him being benched again.
He's going to start against the Saints. That should be interesting to see.
Anyway, back to Haden, I think that he is a very good corner, but I don't yet see elite. He sure looks better than another high draft pick like Milliner has looked so far though.
Has Revis or Nmandi ever been a ball hawk?
It is hard to get interceptions when the ball is not thrown your direction.
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Haden isn't a top guy yet. For one thing, he simply does not create turnovers. He sometimes gets in position to make a turnover, but cannot catch the ball. To be an elite guy, he has to start creating turnovers.
That said, he is very good. I look at a guy many wanted us to draft, Dee Milliner, and he is an absolute mess. He allowed something like 5 pass completions for well over 100 yards last week. I read something about him being benched again.
He's going to start against the Saints. That should be interesting to see.
Anyway, back to Haden, I think that he is a very good corner, but I don't yet see elite. He sure looks better than another high draft pick like Milliner has looked so far though.
Has Revis or Nmandi ever been a ball hawk?
Yep, I'd rather have a guy like Haden who can shut down your best WR the entire game then someone akin to Alterraun Verner who can get turnovers, but won't shut down an AJ Green or a Calvin Johnson.
I think that both of our starting CBs, Haden and Skrine, have played well this year ..... but I still feel that they need to create more turnovers to be considered elite.
Teams do throw at Haden. It's not like they look at him and say "Oh no, we can't throw over there". He has done well, make no mistake .... but to be elite, he needs to start getting some turnovers when the opportunities present themselves.
Edit: Before anyone says anything, I am not saying that Shrine is playing at the same level as Haden.
Frankly I just rely on those advanced football statistics websites to tell me how good a Browns player is. I can't be completely objective on my own.
I think Haden is a very dominant shutdown CB. But he doesn't produce the amount of turnovers you would expect from a HOF type player. I think he is probably a top corner in the league today, but maybe not top 10 of the decade if that makes sense.
I don't know if I was spoiled by Anthony Henry, but I get disappointed when guys aren't grabbing 10 INTs a season.
I look at a guy like Revis, who shut down everyone to the extent that teams threw away from him, yet he still managed something like 18 INT in his 1st 5 seasons. Even with team worried about throwing in his direction, he still created turnovers.
I have watched Haden drop interceptions that hit him right in the hands, and I understand the axiom that if a CB could catch he's be a receiver ...... however, those turnovers are the difference between a defense being a good defense, and a great one .... and a CB being a very good one, and a great one.
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See how easy that is, guys? You are wrong and you admit it. Care to try it.
OK, I'll give it a go. Let's see: Being human, I'm not perfect therefore I can't always be right. However, in the absence of "mis-statements", I can conclude that I haven't been wrong. Oh well, I did try... 
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they do, and are more often correct than anybody on this board. including you.
Prove it, mouth!
I will start the process:
I said TRich was solid. I said he was not explosive. I said he lacked instincts, decisiveness. and vision. The national media said he was the best back since AP. Who was right?
I said Weeden should have been a 4th round pick. I said he couldn't read coverages. I said he was inaccurate after being pressured. I said spread qbs have a hard time transitioning to the NFL. I said that Shurmur's lame offense was not the real reason why Weeden stunk and that Weeds would not flourish under Norv. The national media disagreed.
Now, what say you, Mouth?
haden. thats was a big one, all the media was giving him credit these years except for you.
now he's ranked as a top 5/10 CB. whoops.
now ward.
and the big one of all, your boy mangini. that espn job must be awesome? to coach for other team cause he's such a great HC....oh wait.
your move, mouth.
Ytown,
can't really agree with that.
wanna know why revis and haden's int numbers are always low?
because Qb's don't throw it in their direction.
shutdown.
Haden? I argued that he wasn't a top 3 cb or a shut-down corner for a few years. And he wasn't. He was challenged by Horton to step-up his game this year. He has stepped-up. You have no argument.
Ward? I never said he stinks. I said that his coverage ability isn't very good. I will stand by that.
Mangini? He isn't even a player. Pull another one out of your butt.
right right.
and who said it had to be just players?
that mangini firing still burns huh?
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Edit: Before anyone says anything, I am not saying that Shrine is playing at the same level as Haden.
I'm not saying this either. I love joe. He is top 7anywhy ya look at it. To be elite he has to keep the off hand from around the waist of wr. His rep helps him with that call. It's joe and it looks great when he is slapping the ball down with the other hand. He can be shutdown, but man he has those games sometimes where I'm like wth joe! If he would look back once in a while he WOULD get those picks. For some reason our cb think when beat a little, throw your hands up and pray. He is great. Possible pro bowler but just not elite.
Buster? Man I have been his worse critic past 2 years. But he has been player past 3-4 games. When he don't panic when beat he is pretty good. Hitter too. Joe can tackle, but buster is a better tackler.
If someone watched the browns and knew nothing about the browns or any player. Buster would get a little more respect. That being said. Buster needs to show that a little more for me to say he is as good as joe obviously. But he has been playing a lot better. Lot of talent, needs that confidence joe thinks joe has.
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Haden? I argued that he wasn't a top 3 cb or a shut-down corner for a few years. And he wasn't. He was challenged by Horton to step-up his game this year. He has stepped-up. You have no argument.
Ward? I never said he stinks. I said that his coverage ability isn't very good. I will stand by that.
Mangini? He isn't even a player. Pull another one out of your butt.
I I I I I,, That's all we ever hear from you,, I did this, I said that... Who the hell cares.. You ain't a guru.. Just another fan like me me me.
My point is that Revis got his INTs, even being "Revis Island". He has had 18 INT in the past 5 years.
Haden has not. He started off strong in his rookie year turning the ball over, then not so much since. He had 6 INT as a rookie, and has 3 since. Revis has been somewhat consistent in getting INTs, even as the best CB in the NFL. I don't think that people throw away from Haden more than they did Revis. He still gets his opportunities.
I look at a guy like Richard Sherman, and he might be the best CB in the NFL ..... and he gets his INTs. He has 16 in 3 years. He also has a ton of passes broken up. Teams still throw against the whole field in today's NFL.
I am NOT saying that Haden isn't having a very, very good year. He is. However, he still has opportunities for turnovers, and he has to make the most when he gets them. I know that I am comparing him to some of the best in the NFL, but that's the point. I think that Haden could be one of the very best in the NFL, but he has to complete those turnovers instead of just breaking up passes when he has an opportunity to do so.
In one way Haden is very-much like Antoine Winfield was, which is to say they were both excellent cornerbacks who had hands of stone, though nobody I've ever seen tackled like Winfield from the CB position.
This isn't going to be backed up with any data because it isn't that important, but I remember numerous times when Haden had not one but both hands on the football...and dropped it. If he had the hands of some of the truly elite corners in the NFL his INT numbers would be doubled.
Just my opinion, but I feel Joe Haden probably would rank in the 10-15 range in the NFL, give or take. He does a masterful job of using his hands to grab, pull, and manipulate receivers in a way that allows him not to get too many flags thrown on him. Too many fans see that stuff and get upset at him, but the reality is there's an art to that, and it's taught. Despite not having great speed...I didn't put any stock into his pro-day numbers...Haden shows good recovery and change of direction ability, and he has very solid instincts, which was a question coming out. He isn't afraid to get physical, which is something I probably overvalue. Call it a personal quirk because I don't like wussy DB's. As noted, his hands absolutely stink which devalues him greatly.
I happen to think fans are way too critical of Haden, as they want to compare him to some perceived hype, so it becomes not enough that he's a very good CB.
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I happen to think fans are way too critical of Haden, as they want to compare him to some perceived hype, so it becomes not enough that he's a very good CB.
He was drafted 7th overall, so yes, I do have higher expectations for him than I would a guy who was drafted in the mid to late rounds.
Toad, I think the truth lies somewhere between you and YTown.
Haden does not have stone hands. That's a myth. But he does not create turnovers either. But it's not because he can't catch.
Haden is a very good cover guy but he's always a half step behind the play. That's enough to make sure his guy doesn't do a lot of damage but it's not enough to create turnovers. He plays with zero anticipation. It's reactionary. He doesn't jump routes. He never makes a play that screams 'film study'. He plays somewhere between aggresive amd safe football. I think he's been in position to have one pick this year. That one he did drop. But he's mostly never in position to have picks. He's always that half step behind that allows him to maybe get a deflection but not be in position to take the ball away.
He's a maddening player to me. I think the FO is going to have a really difficult decision to make on him. And I would bet you any amount of money the FO doesn't consider him elite or 'shutdown'. Just a hunch.
Well thanks for the acute preparation for the future by Heckert and the wisdom of Banner/Lombardi to not OVERSPEND - we at least have the option to sign our players to their 2nd contract. Ward n Mack probably the most important right now...but we also have Haden n Sheard soon coming up. This is where Banner is suppose to be one of the BEST in the NFL. In Banner we must trust!
JMHO 
I would like for Ward and Mack to get their contracts here. More so Mack if I had to pick one of them.
If we could address people like Haden's contract in advance, then that would be perfect too. Lots of discussion about Haden, but would you rather give up plays or see bat downs instead of interceptions? You can't question his attitude and fire that the kid plays with and his upside is still high. I wouldn't say "top three" yet, but he's up there with the best of them and I expect him to be top three corner EXTREMELY soon. When that happens, I don't want it to be contract year when all the team's start to have a little more drool coming out their mouths to have him. When that happens, I'd rather him already have a contract passed 2015 here in Cleveland!!!!!!!!!!!
He sticks his nose in on the run games too. It's a shame he's so good and Horton rarely ever wants to waste his skills on a blitz assignment, cause I'd like to see him get to the QB a few times!!!!!!
Just my two cents.
Big difference between hope and trust tab.
I do hope though!
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I happen to think fans are way too critical of Haden, as they want to compare him to some perceived hype, so it becomes not enough that he's a very good CB.
He was drafted 7th overall, so yes, I do have higher expectations for him than I would a guy who was drafted in the mid to late rounds.
Not sure where "mid to late rounds" comes into the equation as it pertains to my post. Perhaps you're referencing a previous post by someone else.
I believe the vast majority of teams who take a corner where we drafted him and have gotten the production from Haden that we've had would be quite satisfied, the idiotic drug ban notwithstanding, though I believe we're specifically talking about his talent and production on the field only.
Trying to rank CB's in next to impossible as some of it is anecdotal evidence, but when ESPN's SportsNation put up a nationwide poll of the the top CB's in the league, where Haden is one of the 12 listed, and he gets ranked 6th out of the 12 with more than 17,500 votes cast, that's a pretty solid indicator that he's widely accepted as one of the better cornerbacks in the NFL in the eyes of fans.
Now, that's just fan-speak and less definitive. Something from Profootballfocus is more definitive. While that site misses the mark in their statistical analysis sometimes due to not factoring in non-quantifiable factors such as strength of opponent and home field advantage when it comes to other categories, I happen to believe that this statement from them speaks volumes to just how good Joe Haden is:
web page
Joe Haden, CB (7th overall pick in 2010): One of the better man coverage corners in the league, Haden rarely gets the praise he’s due with a lack of interceptions not capturing hearts and minds. However, his +30.0 coverage grade in three years should show just how good a player he has been.
I'm not going to fill this up with links to various sites and references, but there's another which states PFF ranks Haden as the 14th best in the country. That's about where I'd put him, as his hands drop him down for me.
I'm not stating that Haden has been robbed by not going to any pro-bowls, only that he's a very good cornerback. He's never had the benefit of a defensive that gets consistent pressure on the opposing QB and that extra second makes all the difference in the world if you're not an elite CB. He's dropped far too many footballs that he could have picked off as well. Still, I believe we've received very good value for our selection.
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Rishuz-
I think the FO is going to have a really difficult decision to make on him. And I would bet you any amount of money the FO doesn't consider him elite or 'shutdown'. Just a hunch.
My feeling is that they'll make him a priority. Teams just don't let very good, young cornerbacks walk away.
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My feeling is that they'll make him a priority. Teams just don't let very good, young cornerbacks walk away.
Right, they trade them for a first round pick and another (conditional 4th - could be a 3rd). See Darrelle Revis trade. This was after he suffered a torn ACL. Haden doesn't become a free agent until after next season.
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I happen to think fans are way too critical of Haden, as they want to compare him to some perceived hype, so it becomes not enough that he's a very good CB.
He was drafted 7th overall, so yes, I do have higher expectations for him than I would a guy who was drafted in the mid to late rounds.
Not sure where "mid to late rounds" comes into the equation as it pertains to my post.
It's pretty simple. I expect more from the 7th overall pick than I do from a guy like Skrine. He was a bigger investment. I expect bigger results. Not everyone thinks that way, but I do. I was simply responding to your comment about being it not being good enough to be just a good cb. I expect him to be elite.
i think he was pretty elite today
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i think he was pretty elite today
He's been extremely elite every game so far. People just want more and more. Complete shut down corners are not enough for people these days, they want a shut down corner who can also make interceptions.
He had a nice game. He gave up about 4 completions, including the 2 pt. conversion. He is not quite elite, but I am happy w/his play this year. I am really pleased that he is finally shadowing the other team's #1 WR most of the game. That's huge! I think Horton is bringing out the best in him.
The one thing I like about Joe more than anything is what a physical tackler he is. He pounds guys after they make the catch.
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He had a nice game. He gave up about 4 completions, including the 2 pt. conversion. He is not quite elite, but I am happy w/his play this year. I am really pleased that he is finally shadowing the other team's #1 WR most of the game. That's huge! I think Horton is bringing out the best in him.
The one thing I like about Joe more than anything is what a physical tackler he is. He pounds guys after they make the catch.
pretty much. i just wish we had another thumper at CB.
skrine will lay the wood, like he does all the time, but i wish owens or mcfadden were thumper's.
then WR's would really be scared to go across the middle.
I hear you, but man, I think our defense is playing very well. Much better than any of us expected. I was one of the positive guys about our defense and I didn't expect us to be this good.
Do you remember all the crying about us switching to a 3/4 and how Taylor was going to be traded, Reubin was going to be traded, Sheard was going to be traded and NONE of them fit the 3/4?
Funny how none of those guys are talking now.
I couldn't be happier that the 3-4 is working, as I've been on this bandwagon for years. Too many people would look at the 3-4 under Crennel and say it didn't work, therefore the scheme doesn't work. Truth is it still comes down to implementation, coaching, talent, and execution. Horton is doing wonders with what he's been given to work with. I do remember being shouted down by saying the guys we had couldn't possibly work in a 3-4-hybrid. People forgot the words "rotation" and "hybrid" in the equation.
Vers, here's a thought. You can probably find something else to put in your sig. I think the war is over, soldier.
I don't really think it's about the 3/4 or the 4/3. Both can be effective. I'm glad the 3/4 is working for us.
LOL on the sig. I have been meaning to change it. It's not even up to date. Just too lazy. Want me to find one that offends you? Perhaps something about TRich?
Nah, but you could join me in placing the flag off whichever team the Colts are playing on any given week. We need that draft pick man!
LOL...........the power of the flag is working tonight, man!
Given the way things are trending, I think you need to put a horseshoe in your sig.
The D really loose the battle of 3rd down way to much .. We are very week over the middle .. Responsibility ( DQ , Robertson , Ward , Gipson ) for the most part .. This part of the game drives me nuts ..
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The D really loose the battle of 3rd down way to much .. We are very week over the middle .. Responsibility ( DQ , Robertson , Ward , Gipson ) for the most part .. This part of the game drives me nuts ..
I agree. In my view, the Browns have to look hard at drafting TWO inside linebackers in the draft next year.
Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
I hear Orlando Pace just bought a bar in Sandusky
Unless this front office is completely retarded, Mack isn't going anywhere.
Blah... lots of talk about trading Gordon and that didn't happen. Signing Alex Mack is in the realm of "no-brainer" for this front office.
Just get it done the first day after the last game since Mack doesn't want to talk contract during the season. Besides, Jim Irasy is too stupid and too annoying to be granted a player of Mack's caliber.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
Any team that needs a Center will be after Mack.
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Blah... lots of talk about trading Gordon and that didn't happen. Signing Alex Mack is in the realm of "no-brainer" for this front office.
Just get it done the first day after the last game since Mack doesn't want to talk contract during the season. Besides, Jim Irasy is too stupid and too annoying to be granted a player of Mack's caliber.
We should see if the Colts will give us their 2015 first rounder for us to re-sign Mack ourselves. You never know, they just might fall for it!
J/c...
I'm sure we will try hard to sign Mack and Ward.
I doubt we will rely on Greco although I don't think we will retard the Center position too much if we do.
I don't think we will re-sign Lava unless its for close to league minimum - I have been a big supporter of his in the past but I think considering we started Pinkston at RG this past game (he moved over early to LG as Greco got hurt) - although the Unit played one of their best games with Pink n Lava at the OGs. I'm taking an educated guess Lava is on the way out???
JMHO
I don't think Mack wants to be here.
By "they" you mean, Jim Irsay?
Will T.J. Ward play his final game with Browns at FirstEnergy?
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-report Quote:
CLEVELAND, Ohio - Are T.J. Ward's days numbered as a member of the Cleveland Browns?
Ohio.com reporter Nate Ulrich writes how Sunday could be Ward's last game playing for the Browns at FirstEnergy Stadium, but not if cornerback Joe Haden has any say in the matter.
“Of course, I want him to be in the best position for him and his family and everything like that, but being a football player, you’re trying to win games,” Haden said Wednesday. “I think the best possible way is to have him as our strong safety. If I had any say, which I don’t really think I do, I would definitely want T.J. to be here with me.”
This is the final year of Ward's rookie contract. He becomes an unrestricted free agent in March.
Ulrich writes how Haden said he’s willing to tell the organization’s new decision-makers how valuable Ward is to the defense if they ask.
“If there’s anything I can do to keep T.J. here, I’d do anything in my power for sure to keep him here because that’s not only a really good player, one of the best players on the team, it’s my best friend on the team,” Haden said.
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
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By "they" you mean, Jim Irsay?
Will T.J. Ward play his final game with Browns at FirstEnergy?
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-report
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CLEVELAND, Ohio - Are T.J. Ward's days numbered as a member of the Cleveland Browns?
Ohio.com reporter Nate Ulrich writes how Sunday could be Ward's last game playing for the Browns at FirstEnergy Stadium, but not if cornerback Joe Haden has any say in the matter.
“Of course, I want him to be in the best position for him and his family and everything like that, but being a football player, you’re trying to win games,” Haden said Wednesday. “I think the best possible way is to have him as our strong safety. If I had any say, which I don’t really think I do, I would definitely want T.J. to be here with me.”
This is the final year of Ward's rookie contract. He becomes an unrestricted free agent in March.
Ulrich writes how Haden said he’s willing to tell the organization’s new decision-makers how valuable Ward is to the defense if they ask.
“If there’s anything I can do to keep T.J. here, I’d do anything in my power for sure to keep him here because that’s not only a really good player, one of the best players on the team, it’s my best friend on the team,” Haden said.
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
and... I still don't understand why people want to get rid of Ward.. He's a beast, a leader in the locker room, and he's glue for the other good players(like Haden) on the team to keep them here.
We need to Resign Ward to a year longer than Haden so they both keep staying because they are BFF's. SS and FS are not a dime a dozen. There are only a few good ones out there. maybe 5 at each position. Ward is at the top of that list. It would be like getting rid of a top 5 QB .
I honestly believe if we let Mack go, Greco will get moved to center and Schwartz will replace Grecos spot.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
Down 2 draft picks, I don't think the colts can afford tampering. They're talking out of theirbutts.
j/c:
I really hope we retain Mack. He is very smart. He makes good line calls. Rarely do you see busted blocking protections from our OL. That is partly in part because of Mack's good reads at the LOS.
Mack is also very tough. He has the physicality to handle the big boys in our division. In addition, he is a durable player. He played after an appendectomy and I don't think he has every missed a snap, never mind a game.
I do worry about us retaining him, though. He didn't want to talk contract during the year. Hopefully, he doesn't want out. I'm apprehensive about this.
Ward? As most of you know, I think he is extremely overrated and his lack of coverage skills compromises our defense. Not sure how some see him as a leader??? I would keep him if he wants average safety money. However, if he wants to be paid like a top 3 or 4 safety........forget it. And I believe the Browns will evaluate him the same way.
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j/c:
I really hope we retain Mack. He is very smart. He makes good line calls. Rarely do you see busted blocking protections from our OL. That is partly in part because of Mack's good reads at the LOS.
Mack is also very tough. He has the physicality to handle the big boys in our division. In addition, he is a durable player. He played after an appendectomy and I don't think he has every missed a snap, never mind a game.
I do worry about us retaining him, though. He didn't want to talk contract during the year. Hopefully, he doesn't want out. I'm apprehensive about this.
Ward? As most of you know, I think he is extremely overrated and his lack of coverage skills compromises our defense. Not sure how some see him as a leader??? I would keep him if he wants average safety money. However, if he wants to be paid like a top 3 or 4 safety........forget it. And I believe the Browns will evaluate him the same way.
why wouldn't you pay him top 3 or 4 safety money when thats what the rest of league clearly see's him as?
you say mack is good, which i agree...in passing situations. he's part of the problem in run blocking. how come you don't bring up that?
i don't see how we as fans can not admit we have good talent on this team, and always see the negatives. please vers, enlighten us on who we should draft/trade for that will be as good or better than ward?
we have imo 2 good safeties. thats not an issue that needs upgrading right now. we need to keep ward, and i would love to keep mack, but you seem to harp on negatives about ward all the time, and never the negatives on mack.
The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him? Really?
I think Mack is better than Ward. Pure and simple.
It does amaze me how many of you mock me time after time after time for my opinions on guys and then when things come to fruition, get bent out of shape if I bring up the past arguments.
You wanna mock me and then not hear about how you mocked me after you have been proven wrong. So you can take you sarcastic tone and stuff it.
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him? Really?
I think Mack is better than Ward. Pure and simple.
It does amaze me how many of you mock me time after time after time for my opinions on guys and then when things come to fruition, get bent out of shape if I bring up the past arguments.
You wanna mock me and then not hear about how you mocked me after you have been proven wrong. So you can take you sarcastic tone and stuff it.
i don't know what this is about mocking you in the past, but i'm definitely mocking you NOW seeing as how you completely ignored the question i asked you and went defending your online personality on these boards.
so i'll ask you again, and maybe this time you can keep it football talk:
why did you evaluate macks good without the bad.
and why do you evaluate wards bad without the good. and who would YOU draft/trade/sign that would be an upgrade over ward.
Ward isn't even top 3-4 in the AFC, i would have no problem letting Ward walk. To be honest i think Mack is serviceable but not a world beater, his best attribute is his ability to stay healthy. I don't think I've ever seen ward actually just textbook tackle someone...he just hits them, I'd def. try to keep both guys if the money is right but neither at at the top of their positions so if they are looking to get paid as such, thats not going to happen with banner running things. Esp since both are 2 or 3 years from that magic 30 cutoff.
when people say stupid things... other people that don't know that much believe it.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/24373/tj-wardhttps://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/27/secret-superstar-t-j-ward-s-cleveland-browns/http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/5/6/43...players-of-2012Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7 | Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...injury-1.451199Browns strong safety T.J. Ward rebounded from a knee injury he suffered last season, prompting his teammates to choose him as a recipient of the 2013 Ed Block Courage Award. over Phil Taylor and Jason Pinkston
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_226.htmlProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_tj_ward_irked.htmlFrom the day I stepped on an NFL field if you look at my numbers, the times I have been targeted and passes defended I’ve been in the top five of safeties,” Ward said. “That kind of itches me the wrong way when I get that stigma of ‘I can’t cover, I’m only a box safety.’ Numbers speak for themselves, film speaks for itself.
In terms of quarterback passer rating when a ball is thrown into a coverage area, Ward ranks 10th among safeties this season, according to ProFootballFocus.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...s-best-safetiesTop shelf: Earl Thomas, Jairus Byrd, T.J. Ward, Devin McCourty, Eric Berry
Ward has emerged as the top run-stuffing safety in the NFL
http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2013/...h.9L8RoXWa.dpufHorton's thoughts on Ward:
“I scouted him when he came out of Oregon and watched him as he played but had no idea what kind of character he had. He’s a very smart, instinctive young man. You don’t know that unless you coach the player.
“He’s allowed me to do some things on the field with bringing him, disguising. He’s done everything I had hoped for and beyond. I’ve been very pleased with his production and really his leadership in the classroom and on the field.”
I can keep going too
please keep going because you haven't really proven anything...other than what's been said...he's not a top 3-4 safety in the league. Thats the discussion.. Not if he's top 10..I don't think any thinks ward is total trash, but he's not worth ed reed/TP in his prime money. Granted noone is saying that's what's he's asking, but he's stated several times he puts himself in the same class as those two and thats just laughable. It all comes down to what he thinks he can get and what the Browns feel he's worth. And if Banner's past is any indication of the future, we aren't going to overpay players, ours or someone elses, unless you count Kruger, but that's a different discussion.
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please keep going because you haven't really proven anything...other than what's been said...he's not a top 3-4 safety in the league. Thats the discussion.. Not if he's top 10..I don't think any thinks ward is total trash, but he's not worth ed reed/TP in his prime money. Granted noone is saying that's what's he's asking, but he's stated several times he puts himself in the same class as those two and thats just laughable. It all comes down to what he thinks he can get and what the Browns feel he's worth. And if Banner's past is any indication of the future, we aren't going to overpay players, ours or someone elses, unless you count Kruger, but that's a different discussion.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_226.html
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
The Ward "discussion" is really getting laughable.
The dude is a SS, NOT a FS. People's standard seems to be that of a PB SS AND FS, it's double standard at its finest. Does anyone criticize Gipson for not making Ward-like stops vs the run? No, because it's stupid.
The SS' job is to stop the run and cover short and mid zones. If a SS had great instincts to cover deep, he'd be a FS. It's as ignorant as expecting our DTs to make as much pressure as our DE/OLBs. It's a different JOB and POSITION. Somehow, that pretty significant FACT gets forgotten in this "discussions". Ward isn't superman that can play both S-positions. If you put him at FS, he's probably a bottom 3rd FS, but as a SS, he's easily top 1-5.
There's no doubt that Ward is an animal vs the run. He has by far the most "stops" on our entire D. Going forward, he's probably the best SS around the league along right now. Against TEs, he's WELL above AVG, actually pretty GOOD in coverage in man to man situations. He covered Gronk 1on1 early on (remember the first drive?) and it was a 3 and out with a nice pass breakup on 3rd down. Gronk had 2 catches for 32 yds before his injury and one of those catches came when he was 1on1 vs McFadden lined up in the slot man to man. Gronk was a non factor until his injury. He was targeted 5 times and had 2 catches and who knows how often Brady looked his way without throwing it considering their receiving situation, which means he was covered good enough for not making Tom Brady pull the trigger.
People criticize him for not being Ed Reed in zone coverage and that's stupid. That's Gipson's job. He's the one sitting in zone's 95% of plays. So if we miss that player with instincts and play making ability in zone, we should look to replace Gipson, not Ward, who's pretty darn good at his job.
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him?
Not for nothing, but how do you know they don't think of him as a top 3-4 safety? Just wondering?
Just a general thought,, I like Mack and Ward. But as always, if they find guys that are better, so be it. I'm all for improvement.
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The Ward "discussion" is really getting laughable.
Yes it is...for people on BOTH sides of the argument.
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The SS' job is to stop the run and cover short and mid zones.
And he is awful at 50% of his job. (See bolded word above.0
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There's no doubt that Ward is (sometimes/most times) an animal vs the run.
I fixed it for you. He whiffs waaaaaaaaaaay to much to be considered special.
The rest of your post is good stuff...but it doesn't change the reality posted above.
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So if we miss that player with instincts and play making ability in zone, we should look to replace Gipson, not Ward, who's pretty darn good at his job.
HOrton seems to disagree with your assessment of Gipson.
j/c sort of...
So, I'm looking at all of these reports on Ward that superbowldogg is posting and wondering, if Vers and others are right, how could all of these people be so wrong? Something isn't adding up here.
where's that GIF of last game where on a short td run ward was sitting 5 yards in the end zone and didn't make contact with the RB until the RB was already 5 yards in the endzone...plays like that happen all the time with him..I just don't see him as a top flight safety. I see him as serviceable. But I think he will be gone, he's going to want top money and banner isn't going to give it to him. I predict a rookie there next year.
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where's that GIF of last game where on a short td run ward was sitting 5 yards in the end zone and didn't make contact with the RB until the RB was already 5 yards in the endzone...plays like that happen all the time with him..I just don't see him as a top flight safety. I see him as serviceable. But I think he will be gone, he's going to want top money and banner isn't going to give it to him. I predict a rookie there next year.
you think we are top 5 ranked in the nfl against the run without Ward? we are ranked 4th in the nfl. you and other keep saying ward whiffed on tackles, well then by your logic, we have ZERO top talent on defense, because they have ALL whiffed on tackles this year. EVERY LAST ONE OF OUR DEFENSIVE PLAYERS.
without ward, we aren't even in the top 10 in rush defense. not only is he constantly in the backfield, he stops plays at the LOS all the time. hell, a lot of his stops save possible big runs. to say otherwise, then you might wanna go get the nfl package and re watch all the games.
I resign Ward and Mack today.. today not tomorrow.
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Yes it is...for people on BOTH sides of the argument.
no... just one side.
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There's no doubt that Ward is (sometimes/most times) an animal vs the run.
I fixed it for you. He whiffs waaaaaaaaaaay to much to be considered special.
The rest of your post is good stuff...but it doesn't change the reality posted above.
http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/5/6/43...players-of-2012
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7 | Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
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j/c sort of...
So, I'm looking at all of these reports on Ward that superbowldogg is posting and wondering, if Vers and others are right, how could all of these people be so wrong? Something isn't adding up here.
because I'm using actual data... everyone else is opinion based and parroting what other people have said on the board.
everyone says he wiffs and I just posted an article about how he was the 2nd most sure tackle safety in the NFL last year and is probably up in the top 5 again this year.
I've posted all sorts of articles supporting how good we have it and they just don't realize it. Ward is a BEAST at SS.
Personally, I think the fans are trying to get rid of a Drew Brees/Rodgers/Peyton Manning type player at his position and I just shake my head in disbelief.
sad.
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I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
he was not that good... average in his best year
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I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
he was not that good... average in his best year
That's my point, he looked like a stud here because guys constantly got to the second level. So he was always in on tackles.
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I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
he was not that good... average in his best year
That's my point, he looked like a stud here because guys constantly got to the second level. So he was always in on tackles.
Personally, I never thought Jones was a stud.
plus, the talent level on this team vs that team... night and day. Ward shines on this team and Jones in his prime would be on the bench... maybe.
Way to often, some posters have a short memory. They see the last play a player makes, if it's a good play then he's a great player,, if it's a bad play, he stinks.
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because I'm using actual data... everyone else is opinion based and parroting what other people have said on the board.
Yep, that's what I suspect.
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him?
Not for nothing, but how do you know they don't think of him as a top 3-4 safety? Just wondering?
Nope, don't have a clue because the real NFL talent evaluators haven't said squat. That was my point.
Who knows, perhaps GMs around the league thinks Ward is as good as posters on this board and some media outlets do, but there isn't any proof of that.
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j/c sort of...
So, I'm looking at all of these reports on Ward that superbowldogg is posting and wondering, if Vers and others are right, how could all of these people be so wrong? Something isn't adding up here.
I have never said he stinks. I am saying he is overrated.
I think he is good close to the LOS. I think he can make some nice tackles in the run game where he comes flying up and takes the guys legs out. I think he is a strong guy who can hold up in traffic.
I think his coverage skills are way below par for even a SS. I think that is why our LBers are put in so many vulnerable positions. I think his tackling is suspect in that he never wraps up. He dives too much.
I would keep him if the money was right. However, if he want's top safety dollar, I say "see you later."
We've been done this road so many times over the years. It still astounds me how you guys rip me for these player evaluations and then later, cry when I point out who was right and who was wrong. I don't mind debate. Debate is good. However, it annoys me when people try and act like I am talking out my butt. Like I am making this crap up.
How many times do we have to go through this until you guys at least value my opinion? I am not saying to believe me or to agree w/me. We all see it differently, but to act like I am clueless or biased is beyond old, especially given the history of how these debates have turned out.
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him?
Not for nothing, but how do you know they don't think of him as a top 3-4 safety? Just wondering?
Nope, don't have a clue because the real NFL talent evaluators haven't said squat. That was my point.
Who knows, perhaps GMs around the league thinks Ward is as good as posters on this board and some media outlets do, but there isn't any proof of that.
So pretty much you don't know anything for sure how good or bad Ward is. It's just your opinion. Ok I get it.
At the end of the season if we don't sign him, we'll see if other teams covet him. If they do, then it's safe to say, you were incorrect. If they don't, I'll be the first in line to pat you on the back.
No, wait, that's not right, how could I possibly beat you the punch
I think you are misconstruing my words.
You know..........I answer your question honestly and what do I get in return? More insults. Hope that made you feel powerful.
And where did I say that other teams would not peruse him? I said "don't be surprised if we don't sign him if he wants top safety dollars."
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At the end of the season if we don't sign him, we'll see if other teams covet him. If they do, then it's safe to say, you were incorrect. If they don't, I'll be the first in line to pat you on the back.
not really true. I just saw TR traded to a team that really coveted. how did that work out?
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At the end of the season if we don't sign him, we'll see if other teams covet him. If they do, then it's safe to say, you were incorrect. If they don't, I'll be the first in line to pat you on the back.
not really true. I just saw TR traded to a team that really coveted. how did that work out?
You do know that we are talking about what other teams think of a player right? The Colts coveted TRich for what they Hoped he could do. There is no reason to think that someone would covet Ward for what they THINK he can do. They'd covet him for what he's shown he can do. They are merely hoping he can continue.
You do know that the original poster claimed that that Ward was regarded by the NFL as a top 3-4 safety right and I simply asked him where was the proof of that? Right?
I do value your opinion, but when I see a stat that says Ward has made X number of tackles out of Y number of attempts and that this ratio ranks him as one of the best in the league, I wonder how overrated he really is. Now, this is just one category. I don't know about his coverage skills, which seems to be your point of contention. I know you don't think he stinks. I'm just trying to figure out why people are overrating him, as you say. I guess the ultimate test of his value will come when he is an FA. I'm intrigued. Will be interesting to see exactly what he gets and what it will say about his SS skills.
That's cool. Sorry about being snippy. There were a couple of other posts that irritated me.
I do want to clarify that I am not saying I am right and that all those reports and posters are wrong. I am just saying that it bothers me when people act like I am making things up or that it's about some kind of bias.
I also want to add that I don't think Ward stinks. I think he is a decent SS. He does some things very well and he struggles w/others. He'll get paid, but I'm not just sure it will be by us.
I have no proof of that and I'm not even sure about it. It's just a feeling based on some of the things I have noticed about Ward's play. It leads me to think that the Browns might be seeing the same thing. Who knows, perhaps the Browns will make him the highest paid safety in the game. I don't think they will, but that doesn't mean I'm right.
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You do know that the original poster claimed that that Ward was regarded by the NFL as a top 3-4 safety right and I simply asked him where was the proof of that? Right?
and I posted said proof...
it's not my fault you overlook my posts to keep complaining.
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You do know that the original poster claimed that that Ward was regarded by the NFL as a top 3-4 safety right and I simply asked him where was the proof of that? Right?
and I posted said proof...
it's not my fault you overlook my posts to keep complaining.
The proof is in the game yesterday,,, I don't need any more proof than that.
I will agree w/that.
anyone complaining about our FS/SS/CB's needs to watch MNF. These DB's are terrible on both sides of the ball.
#26 has given up multiple massive penalties and plays.
Ward will be retained.He made a big jump this year,and wants to be a part of this team.The FO wants a physical defense,and he fits that mold.
Cleveland Browns' Joe Thomas on teammate and pending free agent Alex Mack: 'I definitely think he wants to come back'BEREA, Ohio – Browns left tackle Joe Thomas is a close friend of pending free agent Alex Mack and hopes to see the center re-signed.
Does the Pro Bowl left tackle sense his buddy wants to return to Cleveland?
“Yeah, I think he definitely wants to come back,” Thomas said.
That sentiment is consistent with what Mack has told cleveland.com on several occasions in the past five months. The Browns have until March to sign the Pro-Bowl caliber lineman before he hits the open market.
Mack is represented by agent Marvin Demoff.
Thomas was asked why it’s so important to re-sign Mack, who hasn’t missed a snap since being selected in the first round of the 2009 draft.
“Well, because he’s one of the best centers in the NFL, and if we don’t bring him back, now we have a big hole to fill at center, which is one of the most important positions on the offensive line,” Mack said. “And (on this) offense, the way we run it, (the centers) have a tremendous amount of responsibilities as far as directing the offense and the pass protection and the run blocking, even sometimes a greater role than the quarterback in the way that the offensive line and the tight ends are blocking everything.”
Mack is the NFL’s highest-rated center, according to ProFootballFocus.com.
Injury update: Left guard John Greco (knee), who missed last week’s game, returned to practice Tuesday. If healthy enough, Greco said he wants to play against the Steelers. Nose tackle Phil Taylor, tight end Jordan Cameron and guard Jason Pinkston all sat out practice with concussions. Guard Shawn Lauvao missed practice with a contusion, a team spokesman reported.
Defensive lineman John Hughes (knee) also was idle.
Missing his teammate: Josh Cooper caught four passes for 26 yards against the Jets. He was happy to contribute, but hated having to fill in for teammate and friend Davone Bess.
Bess is done for season dealing with a personal matter. Cooper said he’s enjoyed learning how to play the slot from Bess, who’s struggled with dropped passes this season.
Cooper said he also would have left the team if confronted with a serious family matter. Bess is a very positive person, Cooper said, but teammates knew something was wrong with him last week.
“He was just very quiet, which is not like him,” Cooper said.
Passed over: After allowing just two touchdowns passes in the first five games, the Browns have surrendered 26 over the last 10 games. The 26 TDs in that stretch ties them with Minnesota for the most yielded, according to the Elias Sports Bureau.
Rare misses: Not since 1999 have both the Steelers and Baltimore Ravens missed the playoffs in the same year. That streak is in jeopardy as each needs help on Sunday – mainly a Miami Dolphins’ loss.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_river_default_______________
I tend to put more value and weight into what Joe Thomas says when it comes to Browns' stuff. Before reading this article, I thought there was a good chance Mack may have been leaning to leave Cleveland regardless of what money he was offered.....that he just wanted a fresh start elsewhere, maybe closer to the West Coast where he is from. Now, I'm more hopeful he will stick around is a fair contract is offered. I didn't know PFF ranked him as the best Center...that's awesome. Hopefully we can keep him as well as some other valuable pieces this offseason.
One common theme that keeps rising to the top is how these players want to stick around in Cleveland to change the culture and program, not just to win but to do it for the Cleveland community. Maybe it's just lip service but Ward mentions this in an article just above this one, Haden has said it, same with Little in a MKC piece yesterday, so has Gordon, and a reason behind Joe Thomas signing his extension a couple years back. I guess that is somewhat of a consolation prize while this team is losing......the players want to stay here and make sure they can turn it around. Again, it may just be lip service in an effort to get that next contract or maybe, just maybe, it's true?
I hope we keep Mack. I too, was under the impression that he might not want to be here. Glad to hear that he wants from Joe T.
I think it would be a huge mistake by this FO to not do everything they can to keep Mack. I would make him the highest paid center in the league if I had to.
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I hope we keep Mack. I too, was under the impression that he might not want to be here. Glad to hear that he wants from Joe T.
I think it would be a huge mistake by this FO to not do everything they can to keep Mack. I would make him the highest paid center in the league if I had to.
no problems with this at all. Thomas and mack? honestly, is there any better combo in the league?
the problem has never been them. the problem is those wack guards and now the RT. as much as they invested the last off-season in the defense, they need the same focus on the offense this year.
imo, the defense needs minimum tweaking, and maybe one or two as far as starters, but the offense? man.
i wonder if there are any guards hitting the FA market this year that are highly rated, or even above average. i think that would be a huge upgrade and help a ton for whoever starts at QB for us next year.
Defense needs tweaking?
"Passed over: After allowing just two touchdowns passes in the first five games, the Browns have surrendered 26 over the last 10 games. The 26 TDs in that stretch ties them with Minnesota for the most yielded, according to the Elias Sports Bureau."
That's damned near 3 a game.A team isn't going to win a lot giving up those kinda numbers.
I don't know about giving top Center money but see him hovering around top five for any contract he gets, whether here or elsewhere.
Nick Mangold has a cap hit of $7.2M in 2014 (a decrease from $9M this year but goes to $10.4M in 2015)
Scott Wells has a cap hit of $6.5M
Ryan Kalil has a cap hit of $10.4M
Max Unger has a cap hit of $5.6M
Chris Meyers has a cap hit of $7M
These are the top paid Center in the NFL. Alex Mack and fellow upcoming FA Center (from the same draft) Eric Wood are just after that based on their rookie deals. I don't know where Mack fits into this equation for the future but Kalil's contract seems like an outlier. Anything from $5M increasing annually for Mack I think would be a fair deal....and a substantial guaranteed $$ of course which I guess is all that matters.
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Defense needs tweaking?
"Passed over: After allowing just two touchdowns passes in the first five games, the Browns have surrendered 26 over the last 10 games. The 26 TDs in that stretch ties them with Minnesota for the most yielded, according to the Elias Sports Bureau."
That's damned near 3 a game.A team isn't going to win a lot giving up those kinda numbers.
nobody likes the bottom line stats more than i do, but the thing is, you HAVE to put that into context.
look at the 2nd bengals game, now imagine that scenario every game. thats what the O has done to our defense more often than not.
yes, they have given up a ton of TD's, but i think all in our, with a few different players with quality depth, the defense should be fine.
maybe we should worry about scoring points, having a competent run game, and good QB play this off season.
One of the worse 3rd D's,one of the worse red zone D's.
That has absolutely nothing to do with ineptitude on O.
That is simply,flat out,. poor performance.
From what I understand about the salary cap is that it will be around 126 mil next year. NFL teams are required to spend at least 90% of the cap every year IIRC. 90% of 126 is 113 and some change. The Browns will have a cap of 46 mil going into 2014 (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24379050/agents-take-raiders-atop-list-of-10-teams-with-best-2014-salary-cap-situation) so our 2014 cap space would be ~80 mil. So we'll need to spend 33 mil during the off season to be within the cap regulations, if I'm reading this correctly/doing the math correctly (which I believe I am). I think that gives us plenty of money to re-sign both Mack and JT while also getting Ben Tate.
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One of the worse 3rd D's,one of the worse red zone D's.
That has absolutely nothing to do with ineptitude on O.
That is simply,flat out,. poor performance.
Yep.
I am sick and tired of hearing about the defensive failures being everyone's fault except for the defense.
If the defense gets off the field as effectively as their opposite number does, then they won't be on the field "too long".
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I think that gives us plenty of money to re-sign both Mack and JT while also getting Ben Tate.
I do think that we will try to re-sign Mack. I do not think that we will sign Ben Tate. I just don't see us throwing tons of money at a position they think that they can fill elsewhere.
I think they've got Carlos Hyde targeted... Like red circled a couple of times.
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I think they've got Carlos Hyde targeted... Like red circled a couple of times.
Out of curiosity, what makes you think that? I like Hyde a bunch, just not sure where he fits in terms of the NFL draft. Of course, we need a RB upgrade.
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I think that gives us plenty of money to re-sign both Mack and JT while also getting Ben Tate.
I do think that we will try to re-sign Mack. I do not think that we will sign Ben Tate. I just don't see us throwing tons of money at a position they think that they can fill elsewhere.
We'd be better off trying to get another CB. There will be a solid pool of guys that can definetly be a #2 guy.
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I think that gives us plenty of money to re-sign both Mack and JT while also getting Ben Tate.
I do think that we will try to re-sign Mack. I do not think that we will sign Ben Tate. I just don't see us throwing tons of money at a position they think that they can fill elsewhere.
From every report I've seen since September says we're aiming towards him. Either way we have more than enough money to sign each of them to 10 mil per year contracts (I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD), so there's no reason to believe that we need to pick or choose between two players as we're in a financial position where we won't need to.
Reports said that we were in negotiations with Kelly's agent and close to signing him this past off-season too.
Can't always believe the reports .......
T.J. Ward hoping Steelers game isn't his last with the Cleveland Browns: 'You can't block that out'By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
December 24, 2013 at 6:24 PM
BEREA, Ohio -- Browns safety T.J. Ward will have more on his mind Sunday in Pittsburgh than just knocking the resurgent Steelers out of playoff contention.
He knows it could be his last game as a Brown, and he's hoping that's not the case.
"You can't block that out,'' Ward said Tuesday. "I spent four years here and I've given a lot to this team and this city and they've given a lot to me, so you can't completely block it out, but I try to stay focused on the task and one week at a time and finish it off right.''
In the midst of a Pro Bowl-caliber season, Ward stressed that he wants to finish what he started when he was drafted in the second round of 2010 out of Oregon.
“I definitely want to be back,'' he said. "I like my team. I love my teammates. I love being in this city. I love the organization. We haven’t had many wins, but I think we’re building something here, and I think it’s being built the right way. When you start something, I’m a person that wants to finish things and I want to finish things on a winning note. I want to play in the playoffs here, I want to bring this city a championship. I’ve been doing everything in my power to help this team win so I definitely want to see that through.”
Ward knows the Browns have the option of franchising him if they don't wrap him up a to a long-term contract before free agency hits March 11. The projected one-year salary for a franchise safety in 2014 is about $8 million, according to Joel Corry of cbssports.com. Ward's rookie contract was a four-year deal worth $4.027 million, including $3 million guaranteed.
“If I get the tag, I get the tag,'' he said. "That would just be one more year here. It is a sort of free agency, but you’re still with the team. So it’s like a one-year contract, and I’ve just got to continue to do the things that I’ve been doing. That’s all it is, basically just another year.”
Ward said he's not sure if he'd prefer to hit the market to see what he could get or sign with the Browns beforehand, but the idea of testing the waters is intriguing.
"It's an opportunity I haven't had, but who knows?'' he said. "I just want to win this last game. That’s it. Just want to beat Pittsburgh this week and after the season, all that offseason stuff will handle itself and my agent will handle that but I have no control over that right now.”
One reason Ward wants to stay is to bring the city a championship along with his close friend and 2010 draft classmate Joe Haden, who's hopeful he'll receive an extension before his deal expires in 2014. The two have gone 18-45 with no playoffs since they were drafted.
“"We were brought in here to do a job and a task and to help this team improve and once we start something we want to finish it,'' he said. "We haven’t done pretty well the last four seasons but like I said, we have signs of improvement, signs of a championship quality team and I think there’s a lot of pieces in place here and it’ll be great to finish it off together especially me and Joe coming in together.”
Ward is in the midst of arguably his finest year as a pro, with a team-highs in solo tackles (94) and tackles for a loss (15). He also has two touchdowns -- a 44-yard interception for a touchdown against the Bills and a 51-yard fumble recovery for a TD against the Bears.
"I think I had a Pro Bowl season,'' he said. "I know I had a Pro Bowl season, but like I said it’s up to the fans and the other players. (If) you get the other players' and coaches' respect then that helps. I’ve put a lot of work in since Day One and it is satisfying when your hard work pays off. We haven’t had the team wins and victories, but those will come. Those will definitely come if everyone starts doing those types of things and finishing things off, you’ll start seeing a lot more wins.”
So why would Ward want to come back to a place that's lost at least 11 games in his four seasons?
"If you look at our season, we've had some ups and downs, but for the most part we were very competitive,'' said Ward. "We lost some games by a little bit and I think just the sleight of hand would turn all of those losses into wins, so you look at the Kansas City Chiefs who went 2-14 and they were undefeated for most of the season, so anything can happen. Anything can change with the snap of a finger. I think the hard work we've out in, it's going to show results.''
Will he be around to enjoy them?
i hope he stays.
people act like some of these players are so easily replaced. Ward has done a fine job. some posters seem like they are on a witch hunt, but you have a SS leading the team in solo tackles and tackles for a loss.
sorry, but thats suppose to be our LB's stat line, not a safety. i hope the FO resigns him and haden to long term deals. those are 2 positions on D we won't have to worry about.
we have way more issues on offense that needs to be fixed, and honestly, another year with the 3-4 plus having bryant back next year, will probably see a true top 5-10 defense.
T.J. Ward, Alex Mack want to stay with Browns in 2014
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...-browns-in-2014Strong safety T.J. Ward leads the Cleveland Browns in tackles and tackles for losses this season. As we discussed on Tuesday's "Around The League Podcast" Pro Bowl selection preview, Seattle Seahawks Defensive Player of the Year candidate Earl Thomas is the only safety playing at a higher level this season.
Retaining Ward and fellow impending free agent, center Alex Mack, will be high on the Browns' list of offseason priorities.
Fortunately, neither player is anxious to test the open market.
"I definitely want to be back," Ward said Tuesday, via The Plain Dealer. "I like my team. I love my teammates. I love being in this city. I love the organization. We haven't had many wins, but I think we're building something here, and I think it's being built the right way. ... I want to play in the playoffs here, I want to bring this city a championship."
Mack has told The Plain Dealer several times over the past five months that he wants to re-sign with the Browns.
"Yeah, I think he definitely wants to come back," said left tackle Joe Thomas, who referred to Mack as "one of the best centers in the NFL."
Both Ward and Mack are candidates for the franchise tag in the coming offseason.
While some franchise players bristle at the notion of the tag, Ward is fine with the projected one-year salary of roughly $8 million.
"If I get the tag, I get the tag," Ward said. "That would just be one more year here."
Ward and Mack are two of the six most valuable players on general manager Michael Lombardi's roster. It's a tangible sign of progress that neither is looking forward to fleeing a venue formerly known as the Factory of Sadness.
The latest "Around The League Podcast" delivered a Christmas gift, analyzing the chaotic playoff picture in both conferences.
I will say that I see almost no way we tag Mack. He would get an average of the top 5 (or 10, I can't remember the rules specifically for the franchise tag) salaries of all offensive linemen, including LTs, but just Centers. The OL tag would be very expensive, and more than most teams would pay for a Center. (over $11 million)
Here are the tag numbers, and a list of payers considered likely to be tagged ...... though I don't see us using the tag on Mack. We might tag Ward if we can't re-sign him ...... who knows?
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I will say that I see almost no way we tag Mack. He would get an average of the top 5 (or 10, I can't remember the rules specifically for the franchise tag) salaries of all offensive linemen, including LTs, but just Centers. The OL tag would be very expensive, and more than most teams would pay for a Center. (over $11 million)
Here are the tag numbers, and a list of payers considered likely to be tagged ...... though I don't see us using the tag on Mack. We might tag Ward if we can't re-sign him ...... who knows?
the thing is, theres zero reason not to sign both of them long term. we won't know if those guys are asking for top paydays, but they don't strike me as that.
there's not wrong with paying mack top center money, and ward top 10 safety money. we have more than enough cash. same thing with haden. we have all this money to sign core guys at their positions, it would be a waste of money to Tag them.
j/c
As with anything, just follow the money. Good or bad, right or wrong, any player is going to follow the money.
Franchise tag is for guards and centers, not tackles. With money not being an issue, I don't see why we wouldn't franchise either.
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Franchise tag is for guards and centers, not tackles. With money not being an issue, I don't see why we wouldn't franchise either.
The franchise tag is for offensive linemen. There is no breakdown by position. If you are a franchised offensive lineman, you get the franchise tag for offensive linemen.
$11,126,000 is the one year tender for an offensive lineman.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...a-franchise-tag
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Franchise tag is for guards and centers, not tackles. With money not being an issue, I don't see why we wouldn't franchise either.
The franchise tag is for offensive linemen. There is no breakdown by position. If you are a franchised offensive lineman, you get the franchise tag for offensive linemen.
$11,126,000 is the one year tender for an offensive lineman.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...a-franchise-tag
You're right. My mistake. Looks like wiki lied to me. Anyway, we still have to spend ~30 mil this off season so hitting Mack with a franchise won't be that bad.
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With money not being an issue, I don't see why we wouldn't franchise either.
Money is always an issue. Always. We may seem to have plenty and also have to spend it this year. But I don't believe Banner is going to allow any sort of foolish spending.
I'm not saying I think your idea is foolish. I'm saying I think Banner thinks that idea is foolish.
I don't see a situation where the Browns franchise Mack.
$11M+ for a Center?....nah, thats well above the market right now. He knows it, his agent knows it, and the Browns know it.
The Browns have the capacity to provide a reasonable, long-term deal w/ Mack without the need to rely on a tag.
A more reasonable use of the tag is for TJ Ward IMO but that figure still seems steep.
One thing that caught my eye in the article was this:
First-year Browns CEO Joe Banner was aggressive in retaining key players when he ran the Philadelphia Eagles. That approach hasn't applied to Mack and Ward, Cleveland's two best impending free agents.
I'm hoping this is just because it's his first year here and wanted to get a "temperature check" of the organization and it's not indicative of his feelings for both players' future here.
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One thing that caught my eye in the article was this:
First-year Browns CEO Joe Banner was aggressive in retaining key players when he ran the Philadelphia Eagles. That approach hasn't applied to Mack and Ward, Cleveland's two best impending free agents.
Last word in that sentence should be "YET"
When is Hadens contract up? I thought it was this off season also?
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One thing that caught my eye in the article was this:
First-year Browns CEO Joe Banner was aggressive in retaining key players when he ran the Philadelphia Eagles. That approach hasn't applied to Mack and Ward, Cleveland's two best impending free agents.
Last word in that sentence should be "YET"
When is Hadens contract up? I thought it was this off season also?
Joe Haden Defensive Back
7/31/2010: Signed a five-year, $42.2 million contract. The deal contains $25.6 million guaranteed, including a $12 million signing bonus and a second-year roster bonus of $4 million. An annual $200,000 workout bonus is available in years two through five. Another $8 million is available through incentives.
2013: $6,936,429,
2014: $6,678,193,
2015: Free Agent
Link
Hard to say if Ward and Mack really want to be back.
Mack really hasn't said anything. Joe T was speaking for him and I believe Joe said he "thinks" Mack wants to be back.
Ward did make the comments you posted, but for some reason, a few sources chose to omit the rest of what Ward said. Here is an excerpt from another article on Ward's comments:
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The Browns can keep Ward or Mack off the open market by using their franchise tag to lock one of them into a one-year contract. Ward would be the more logical choice from a financial standpoint because, according to CBSSports.com, the projected cost to franchise safeties in 2014 is $8 million compared to a projected $11 million for offensive linemen – centers, guards and tackles are included in one category and not broken down by specific positions for the tags. Teams may franchise players from Feb. 17-March 3.
“If I get the tag, I get the tag,” Ward said. “That would just be one more year here. It is a sort of free agency, but you’re still with the team. So it’s like a one-year contract, and I’ve just got to continue to do the things that I’ve been doing.”
Although Ward insisted he wants to stay with the Browns and he wouldn’t mind being tagged, there’s also a part of him that’s eager to test free agency.
“It is an opportunity, an opportunity I haven’t had,” he said. “It’s exciting kind of, but who knows? I could be franchised or whatever, but right now, I’m just looking forward to Pittsburgh this week.”
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...season-1.454914
jc
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_river_defaultPro Bowl center Alex Mack will give Cleveland Browns right of first refusal if he hits market
CLEVELAND -- Pro Bowl center Alex Mack wants to return to the Browns, and will give the team right of first refusal if he hits the free agent market.
Asked if he'd give the Browns the chance to match or exceed any offer he receives in free agency, Mack said "Oh, absolutely.''
He also made it clear he wants to return to see the Browns turn things around.
"Being in Cleveland is nice,'' Mack told cleveland.com last week. "I have good friends on the team, I like the coaches, it's a nice place.''
As for whether or not he wants to hit the market, he prefers not to get into it.
"This is where I'm going to be mum on things,'' he said. "Most of it is trying to not get distracted during the season.''
Fellow Pro Bowl linemen Joe Thomas stressed the importance of re-signing Mack, the 21st overall pick in 2009.
"He’s one of the best centers in the NFL, and if we don’t bring him back, now we have a big hole to fill at center, which is one of the most important positions on the offensive line,” Thomas said. “And (on this) offense, the way we run it, (the centers) have a tremendous amount of responsibilities as far as directing the offense and the pass protection and the run blocking, even sometimes a greater role than the quarterback in the way that the offensive line and the tight ends are blocking everything.”
Like Thomas, Mack is an ironman on the Browns' line. In 79 starts, he hasn't missed an offensive snap.
"I think Alex is an outstanding player and he works awfully hard at it,'' said offensive coordinator Norv Turner. "He cares a great deal about it. He’s got a demanding job, and particularly, when you play three different quarterbacks and you have a lot of change, and playing the defenses we play, he’s got a lot of responsibility in terms of getting us into the right calls, right protections. So, he’s awfully valuable to this team.”
If the Browns don't re-sign Mack, he'll hit the market March 11 and figures to be one of the hottest commodities in free agency.
And that worries me. Ward at least said he'd like to be back, but I'm concerned with Mack. I know he said he isn't going to discuss things during the Season, but I really wonder if he wants to be here. I'm sure there are at least playoff contenders needing a beast center, and I guess in a players perspective, nothing beats getting paid AND going to the playoffs.
IMO, the FO needs to do whatever it takes to keep these 2. We aren't in a position, or nearly even good enough to just let 2 of our best players walk. If we want to see significant improvement next year, it starts by NOT having significant holes to fill in the first place.
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One thing that caught my eye in the article was this:
First-year Browns CEO Joe Banner was aggressive in retaining key players when he ran the Philadelphia Eagles. That approach hasn't applied to Mack and Ward, Cleveland's two best impending free agents.
Last word in that sentence should be "YET"
When is Hadens contract up? I thought it was this off season also?
Joe Haden Defensive Back
7/31/2010: Signed a five-year, $42.2 million contract. The deal contains $25.6 million guaranteed, including a $12 million signing bonus and a second-year roster bonus of $4 million. An annual $200,000 workout bonus is available in years two through five. Another $8 million is available through incentives.
2013: $6,936,429,
2014: $6,678,193,
2015: Free Agent
Link
Thanks Tulsa.. What I'd like to see is Ward and Mack signed ASAP. Then when it's possible, Joe haden before the year is up.
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Mack really hasn't said anything. Joe T was speaking for him and I believe Joe said he "thinks" Mack wants to be back.
FWIW.. He has spoken out on the subject.
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Pro Bowl center Alex Mack will give Cleveland Browns right of first refusal if he hits market
Alex Mack
Cleveland Browns center Alex Mack would love to stay in Cleveland to see the team turn things around. (AP Photo/David Richard)
Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
Follow on Twitter
on December 26, 2013 at 9:42 AM, updated December 26, 2013 at 9:49 AM
CLEVELAND -- Pro Bowl center Alex Mack wants to return to the Browns, and will give the team right of first refusal if he hits the free agent market.
Asked if he'd give the Browns the chance to match or exceed any offer he receives in free agency, Mack said "Oh, absolutely.''
He also made it clear he wants to return to see the Browns turn things around.
"Being in Cleveland is nice,'' Mack told cleveland.com last week. "I have good friends on the team, I like the coaches, it's a nice place.''
As for whether or not he wants to hit the market, he prefers not to get into it.
"This is where I'm going to be mum on things,'' he said. "Most of it is trying to not get distracted during the season.''
Fellow Pro Bowl linemen Joe Thomas stressed the importance of re-signing Mack, the 21st overall pick in 2009.
"He’s one of the best centers in the NFL, and if we don’t bring him back, now we have a big hole to fill at center, which is one of the most important positions on the offensive line,” Thomas said. “And (on this) offense, the way we run it, (the centers) have a tremendous amount of responsibilities as far as directing the offense and the pass protection and the run blocking, even sometimes a greater role than the quarterback in the way that the offensive line and the tight ends are blocking everything.”
Like Thomas, Mack is an ironman on the Browns' line. In 79 starts, he hasn't missed an offensive snap.
"I think Alex is an outstanding player and he works awfully hard at it,'' said offensive coordinator Norv Turner. "He cares a great deal about it. He’s got a demanding job, and particularly, when you play three different quarterbacks and you have a lot of change, and playing the defenses we play, he’s got a lot of responsibility in terms of getting us into the right calls, right protections. So, he’s awfully valuable to this team.”
If the Browns don't re-sign Mack, he'll hit the market March 11 and figures to be one of the hottest commodities in free agency.
© 2013 cleveland.com. All rights reserved.
So, basically, he says he wants to be back (no second hand info here) yet he won't say he doesn't want to hit the market.
Personally, I was thinking about this, I think he wants to hit the market to see what his worth is then allow the browns to match or exceed the best offer he gets. can't say I blame him at all.
Personally, I think Mack is in the realm as Dawson was. Money won't keep him here as his mindset to get off this team is already choosen.
JMO, but I don't think Alex will be retained... and it won't be b/c the front office doesn't want him, or make him a elaborate contract offer - just he wants off this losing team. Can't blame the man whatsoever either.
He's done a great job. The only thing I can recall was that bad high snap that one game. Rarely flagged, good at blocking and he gets upfield pass blocking which is AWESOME from the center.
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Personally, I think Mack is in the realm as Dawson was. Money won't keep him here as his mindset to get off this team is already choosen.
You didn't notice/read the article Daman just posted before you posted this, did you?
He's on my ignore list so I do not see Daman's posts, but I did see the article above where he states he "wants to return" and "give Brown's first option" and all that, but truthfully I think it's all a big smoke screen.
Saying that on the outside, when inside is already excited for seeing what other teams, non-Cleveland, will throw contracts his way... JMO, but I think he'd take less to goto a more stable/qualified team. This is an instance where I will happily admit being wrong, as I hope that I am dead wrong! I am a big Alex fan. Have been since I listened to his first interview
So you're calling him a liar . . .
Just funnin' w/ you.
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So you're calling him a liar . . .
Just funnin' w/ you.
I disagreed with him a couple of times and he puts me on the ignore list.. Thats funny..
So if Mack leaves do we get a compensatory pick in a future draft?
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So if Mack leaves do we get a compensatory pick in a future draft?
It would depend on who we sign in return.
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Personally, I think Mack is in the realm as Dawson was. Money won't keep him here as his mindset to get off this team is already choosen.
Personaly your wrong.
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Personally, I think Mack is in the realm as Dawson was. Money won't keep him here as his mindset to get off this team is already choosen.
It sure seems that way. First, you have Thomas speaking for him. Then when he does speak he says he'll give Browns first right of refusal. Doesn't sound like he wants to be here to me ... just words to placate the fans a little. He's going to get an offer from a team that is better than we are. Mack will not be back, IMO.
Maybe the Greco signing was really about this eventuality anyway.
This FO has a big job this offseason. I hope they are up for it.
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Maybe the Greco signing was really about this eventuality anyway.
I think the Greco extension is a possible backup plan. I really think there is a chance they could move him over to Center if Mack walks and, no matter what, look to upgrade the LG position. A clause in Greco's contract states that if he loses his starting job in base salary goes down significantly....somewhere in the mid-six figures. So, maybe Greco's best chance to keep his high salary is to see Mack leave because I think the Fo would like to address both guard spots.
Probably just me for not knowing this, but hey Memphis, where did you get the info on Grecos contract?
I see lots of theories on what the FO wants, what Mack wants, what Greco wants.. Lots of speculation. Fun to read..
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Probably just me for not knowing this, but hey Memphis, where did you get the info on Grecos contract?
I see lots of theories on what the FO wants, what Mack wants, what Greco wants.. Lots of speculation. Fun to read..
John Greco Guard 7/23/2013: Signed a five-year, $13.2 million contract. The deal contains $3 million guaranteed. Another $800,000 is available through Pro Bowl incentives. If Greco loses his starting job, the contract's max value drops to $6 million. 2013-17: Under Contract, 2018: Free Agent
Link
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Probably just me for not knowing this, but hey Memphis, where did you get the info on Grecos contract?
I see lots of theories on what the FO wants, what Mack wants, what Greco wants.. Lots of speculation. Fun to read..
John Greco Guard 7/23/2013: Signed a five-year, $13.2 million contract. The deal contains $3 million guaranteed. Another $800,000 is available through Pro Bowl incentives. If Greco loses his starting job, the contract's max value drops to $6 million. 2013-17: Under Contract, 2018: Free Agent
Link
Thanks, Tulsa.
I must have misread the the contents of the deal regarding the six-figure amount. But either way, his contract decreases significantly if he loses his starting job. If he would lose his job next year, we'd have to check back to rotoworld and see what his annual salary amounted to.
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Lots of speculation. Fun to read.
Oh yeah, it's about that time for all to speculate what the FO is gonna do. I have to admit, I love playing this game.
j/c:
I think losing Mack would be significant for the Browns. Here's why:
--The guy makes all the line calls. How many times have you really seen guys run in unabated? He puts us in the right scheme. When our QBs are pressured, it is due to someone getting beat, not due to a poor line call. Mack was known as a very intelligent player in college and that has carried over to the pros.
--Mack is powerful enough to contain some of the larger NTs in this league and more specifically, in our division. He is a physical player who does not get overwhelmed by power guys.
--He has not missed a game in his career. Heck, he has not missed a snap. That durability is impressive. He's a guy who will be there week-in and week-out for you.
--Mack does have the ability to get downfield and block, as evidenced by the play where him and Joe T were leading Little on that WR screen way downfield a couple of weeks ago.
I hope he wants to stay and that the FO wants to retain him.
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j/c:
I think losing Mack would be significant for the Browns.
This ties in with what you were stating earlier about mental toughness. Mack played through an attack of appendicitis; that's tough enough for me...
It's even tough enough for The Fabulous Thunderbirds.
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j/c:
I think losing Mack would be significant for the Browns. Here's why:
--The guy makes all the line calls. How many times have you really seen guys run in unabated? He puts us in the right scheme. When our QBs are pressured, it is due to someone getting beat, not due to a poor line call. Mack was known as a very intelligent player in college and that has carried over to the pros.
--Mack is powerful enough to contain some of the larger NTs in this league and more specifically, in our division. He is a physical player who does not get overwhelmed by power guys.
--He has not missed a game in his career. Heck, he has not missed a snap. That durability is impressive. He's a guy who will be there week-in and week-out for you.
--Mack does have the ability to get downfield and block, as evidenced by the play where him and Joe T were leading Little on that WR screen way downfield a couple of weeks ago.
I hope he wants to stay and that the FO wants to retain him.
they have to. really there isn't a question. isn't he the highest rated center in the NFL? then he should get highest center money.
we have 2 GREAT OL, unfortunately the other 3....ugh.
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It's even tough enough for The Fabulous Thunderbirds.
I admit to having to look that one up on You Tube...
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Personally, I think Mack is in the realm as Dawson was. Money won't keep him here as his mindset to get off this team is already choosen.
Personaly your wrong.
Oh, and you know this because you and Alex talk on the phone daily huh? You and Joe Banner exchange texts at-will? You and Lombari have tea parties on the weekend where you're told all this?
None of us know what is going on/the facts. Trying to act like you do is almost pointless. Hence why I said "I think". 
we all are granted our opinion(s)
I agree with you on Mack. I hope that we are smart enough to bring him back long term.
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isn't he the highest rated center in the NFL?
I've seen one article report he is the #1 rated Center, and another report he's #3. Either way, he is up there.
Not sure where the sources of rating are coming from but every site has their own method.
Cleveland Browns could have changing faces on their offensive line next season BEREA, Ohio – Browns left tackle Joe Thomas spoke last week about the importance of continuity and how it’s a staple of successful franchises.
The Browns are the antithesis of that statement. They are the neighborhood pizza shop that’s always under new management. Thomas has lost count of the quarterbacks, halfbacks, offensive coordinators and coaches who have breezed in and out of Berea in the past seven years.
His Browns unit has demonstrated more stability than most. Center Alex Mack has taken every snap since 2009. Guard Shawn Lauvao has been a three-year starter when healthy. Mitchell Schwartz is finishing up his second season at right tackle.
But following Sunday’s season finale in Pittsburgh, there’s potential for significant change to the offensive line. Mack is an unrestricted free agent enjoying a Pro Bowl-caliber season. Lauvao also is a free agent. It’s unclear what management thinks of Schwartz, although the Browns reportedly had interest in obtaining tackle Eugene Monroe, whom Jacksonville traded to Baltimore in October.
“Change always happens in the NFL,” said Lauvao, who’s unlikely to be re-signed. “There’s always lots of turnover. At the end of the day whatever opportunities are given to us we’ll just try to make the most of them.”
While the Browns (4-11) have crumbled down the stretch, the offensive line is playing its best as the season ends. It’s affording quarterback Jason Campbell more protection and opening some holes for Edwin Baker, the Browns’ latest patchwork halfback.
“I think we’ve made great progress in understanding the system, understanding what we’re doing,” offensive coordinator Norv Turner said. “Obviously, early in the year, when you’re having changes – we went through that stretch where we played (three) different quarterbacks – I think it was a challenge for them, but I think they handled it. Obviously, over the last period of time, we’ve protected a lot better than we did early.”
Overall, it’s been a trying season for the line, which had to adapt to Turner’s system, adjust to three quarterbacks, endure numerous backfield changes and overcome injuries at guard.
The result: The Browns have yielded 46 sacks, tied for fourth-most in the NFL, and rank 27th in rushing. The Browns are 15th in total offense and 27th in scoring.
“When you don’t have the same offense or defense for more than one or two seasons in a row it’s difficult to get everyone on the same page,” Thomas said. “The teams that win consistently in the NFL are the ones building through the draft and signing their players who are coming up in free agency.”
Thomas hopes the Browns re-sign Mack, 28, one of the NFL’s top centers. Mack has told cleveland.com he wants to remain with the Browns and would give them right of first refusal if he hits the free-agent market on March 11.
The Browns have ample salary-cap space, but might decide they don’t want to cede top dollar for a center. Placing a franchise tag on him would be costly because offensive linemen are lumped together and it would involve paying Mack the kind of money top-five left tackles earn.
Left guard John Greco, who signed a four-year extension this season, could switch to center, but prefers to remain at his current position.
Several draft analysts said the Browns, with needs at quarterback, receiver and halfback, would have to invest a high draft pick on a center to find someone even approaching Mack’s quality.
Replacing Lauvao would not be as difficult. Among the candidates are: Jason Pinkston, who’s missed most of the past two seasons due to injury and a blood clot in his lung; seventh-round pick Garrett Gilkey; and tackle/guard Chris Faulk. The club also could draft another guard.
Last week, the Browns gave Gilkey 27 snaps at guard as he rotated with Pinkston in place of an injured Greco (knee).
“I’m very confident in how I progressed,” Gilkey said. “Personally, it took longer than I would have liked, but I feel where I’m at is a big step from where I was at last year. But still there are things I’m working at every day to improve on.”
The 6-foot-6, 323-pound Faulk remains the Browns’ most intriguing offensive-line prospect. He’s essentially a medical redshirt after suffering a serious knee injury during his junior season at LSU. The Browns signed him as an undrafted free agent and expect him to be ready for spring practices. Faulk has spent this fall attending all the offensive line meetings, immersing himself in the system.
“I’m learning as much as I can and trying to stay out of the way,” Faulk said.
He could be in the mix at right tackle should they jettison Schwartz, a 2012 second-round pick, or open his job to competition. Draft analysts predict the tackle class will be a deep one should the Browns choose to go that route.
Schwartz’s slow start to the season – he experienced a similar one in his rookie year – fueled speculation the club might upgrade at position. He’s played hurt and had to deal with instability at right guard due to injuries early in the year.
Most agree, Schwartz has been much better in the stretch run.“Mitchell Schwartz, I think he’s improved in understanding our offense and the way he’s played throughout the season,” Turner said.
Is it enough to keep him in place for a third straight season? It’s all part of the offseason of intrigue with the Browns offensive line.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_river_default________________
Most assuredly, I'll be very interested to watch the activity on our offensive line in the offseason. Also, the Chris Faulk factor really intrigues me at this point. Let's just say for argument's sake, it's clear that Faulk has rebounded from his injury and is more talented than Schwartz to play RT...I'm not sure how much this has been discussed at length but is it a possibility we could move Mitchell over the RG? Or conversely, can Faulk move inside to play RG?
If I am not mistaken, Schwartz's scouting reports indicated that he was very versatile on the line and could be moved inside. Not sure what the reports said about Faulk. Does anyone think this is a legit possibility? Don't get me wrong, I like Schwartz at RT but if someone is better than him, it be nice to be able to plug him elsewhere and still be productive for this team. Plus, with my personal speculation that Lava Man will be gone, it helps that we don't have to look at the FA or draft to find a competent replacement...that and the fact we may have to use those avenues at Center or Left Guard.
Just a thought......
I think Faulk is really overrated around here. I got excited reading about him as a potential late-round steal last year leading up to the draft, but then when I went back and watched him play, the guy is a major plodder. I am not excited about the prospect of him as a potential starting RT. I could see keeping him as a backup or a last-resort plan at RG, but I'd prefer he not see the field for us.
JMO.
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Probably just me for not knowing this, but hey Memphis, where did you get the info on Grecos contract?
I see lots of theories on what the FO wants, what Mack wants, what Greco wants.. Lots of speculation. Fun to read..
John Greco Guard 7/23/2013: Signed a five-year, $13.2 million contract. The deal contains $3 million guaranteed. Another $800,000 is available through Pro Bowl incentives. If Greco loses his starting job, the contract's max value drops to $6 million. 2013-17: Under Contract, 2018: Free Agent
Link
Thanks Tulsa..
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j/c:
I think losing Mack would be significant for the Browns.
This ties in with what you were stating earlier about mental toughness. Mack played through an attack of appendicitis; that's tough enough for me...
He's an iron man that's for sure. Remember he had surgery for something and didn't miss any games.. Wow,.
I have read a lot about how he was still recovering from a major knee injury, and wasn't anywhere near 100% in training camp.
That said, he is more of a power blocker than a finesse blocker.
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I have read a lot about how he was still recovering from a major knee injury, and wasn't anywhere near 100% in training camp.
That said, he is more of a power blocker than a finesse blocker.
power blocker? that be nice, i'm tired of seeing our OL losing the battle at the LOS when it comes to run blocking. more power, please.
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BEREA, Ohio – Browns left tackle Joe Thomas spoke last week about the importance of continuity and how it’s a staple of successful franchises.
The Browns are the antithesis of that statement. They are the neighborhood pizza shop that’s always under new management. Thomas has lost count of the quarterbacks, halfbacks, offensive coordinators and coaches who have breezed in and out of Berea in the past seven years.
His Browns unit has demonstrated more stability than most. Center Alex Mack has taken every snap since 2009. Guard Shawn Lauvao has been a three-year starter when healthy. Mitchell Schwartz is finishing up his second season at right tackle.
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“When you don’t have the same offense or defense for more than one or two seasons in a row it’s difficult to get everyone on the same page,” Thomas said. “The teams that win consistently in the NFL are the ones building through the draft and signing their players who are coming up in free agency.”
Frankly, this is our best player, a Pro Bowler and a franchise LT trying to tell us something. I think we should listen.
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I have read a lot about how he was still recovering from a major knee injury, and wasn't anywhere near 100% in training camp.
That said, he is more of a power blocker than a finesse blocker.
He never practiced at camp. I'm talking about his play at LSU.
Anybody pay attention to Gilkey at guard? I had no idea he played last week.
I noticed that he was playing a few plays... didn't do anything to embarrass himself but I didn't really get to focus on him. I was a little disappointed when they put Pinkston back in just because I wanted to watch him more.
Faulk This is Faulk against Bama. He is at LT. Poor fireoff is easy to notice right away. His profile says he is a physical specimen as evident by his 5.08 40 and good agility for his size at 6'6 335 but he balloons easy and needs to watch his weight. Seems more like 360lbs in the video.
Not the greatest balance but he can move people that's for sure. If he could develop and keep his weight below 330 I see no reason why he couldn't grow into a RT for us. With his weight in check he might be more agile than Schwartz. I personally think RG and let him be at 335 or a little more.
Also need to be careful on the whole past-production/future performance thing. A lot of OL's strength comes from their legs and this guy hasn't played since his knee injury. Played in one game (vs. North Texas) since the Nat'l Championship games vs. Alabama in Jan. 2012.
He shouldn't be "plan A" for any position in my opinion.
*edit* pred, I usually like what you post but this part:
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With his weight in check he might be more agile than Schwartz.
hard for me to understand what you are basing that off of.
Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
I'd be shocked if Alex signs a long term deal here. That may be just me however.
Not surprised. I'm sure he won't be either.
we can only hope. Pettine and the FO have to get mack and ward to resign here long term. we don't need even more holes on this team. i'm sick of always having to build our team the hard way every. single. season.
Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
Even if they have the cap room no way does Banner tag Mack at 9 mil. Ward would be much cheaper to tag.
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Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped. Hank Fraley was better than Mack in that first season he came over from the Eagles. I guess depends on what centers will be available in FA. I just don't think Mack's particularly special at all. He's not a great run blocker and he isn't that great of a pass blocker either. The interior of our O-Line is pretty weak. More or less an average starter, but he does manage to consistently stay on the field, and that is something. I read somewhere that he's good getting up field and making blocks, unfortunately he must have had very rare chances doing that this year, may be on reverses or something. I guess he moves well.....
TJ Ward, on the other hand, I like a lot. He does have some injury issues, but otherwise, he's a better overall player than Mack IMO.
Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why?
A Franchise tag applies to one year only, and we have $40 million in cap room available for next year. If we spend $10 million to secure Mack's services for the year, then we still have more money available than most teams do. We could then work on a long term deal, with almost absolute exclusivity. It would also allow time for Mack to get to know the new coaches, and make a determination as to whether or not he thinks that they can lead this team to a Super Bowl.
There is very little risk if we tag Mack.
Besides, with as many draft picks as we have, I would be stunned if we sign more than 2-3 name free agents, and a handful of backups/filler types. That's not going to count for $30 million in cap space.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why not? Unless our front office wants to be big spenders in free agency I don't see the problem with tagging Mack. We're probably going to be releasing guys like Bess, Weeden and Little too.
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Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
So basically, the guy reports that Mack "could" be franchised, something we already knew "could" happen, right? He doesn't even present this info with the common, "undisclosed sources say" part. Meaning this is simply speculation on his part... which makes it no more important to me than if you or I were speculating on these possibilities. I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware. This info likely comes from a tweet, there is no official news story to look into. So this news says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know. It proves nothing. It's ESPN at it's finest.
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Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware.
I can say I didn't know. When did they just lump them together? Makes some sense though.
If the info I checked is correct, the OL tag is 11.2 this year.
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I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped.
If you would have said that last season or any other season prior to now, I'd not have thought about arguing with you. But damn, he was just selected and played well in, the Pro Bowl.
I want them to resign him and Ward both..
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Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped. Hank Fraley was better than Mack in that first season he came over from the Eagles. I guess depends on what centers will be available in FA. I just don't think Mack's particularly special at all. He's not a great run blocker and he isn't that great of a pass blocker either. The interior of our O-Line is pretty weak. More or less an average starter, but he does manage to consistently stay on the field, and that is something. I read somewhere that he's good getting up field and making blocks, unfortunately he must have had very rare chances doing that this year, may be on reverses or something. I guess he moves well.....
TJ Ward, on the other hand, I like a lot. He does have some injury issues, but otherwise, he's a better overall player than Mack IMO.
Agreed. The Brown's would be better off with a free agent or Rookie at center then a PO'd Mack at center that can't run block. Also, IMO Mack causes many pre snap OL penalties, killing drives.
Besides our defense is great. Ward is a big part of that. Our offense basiclly needs overhauled, so including a new center fits in that schema.
i dunno if i agree with the run blocking part.
thomas and mack proved they have some really good push at the LOS. unfortunately, they are only 2 in the 5 needed for good run blocking. our G's and the RT suck at that. period. maybe if we upgrade the pieces around Thomas and Mack, we can start seeing some improvement.
case in point. the 4 game win streak in 2009. that o line run blocking was straight up nasty, and mack was apart of that. our Guards were straight up raping and pillaging the LOS and at the second level.
Resign Ward.. I liked his interview from the pro bowl talking about the new coach it was all "we" and "us"... sounded like he plans on being here as long as the FO treats him fairly...
I'd resign Mack too and if he won't resign, then franchise him and hope we show enough improvement next year that it encourages him to stick around and sign a long term deal.. and if he won't sign a long term deal, at least you have put off filling that hole for another year..... If we can fill 3 or 4 big holes this year, it won't hurt so much to have to fill the center spot next year... right now we have a bunch of needs to fill in round 2-4... would hate to create another one..
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Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
So basically, the guy reports that Mack "could" be franchised, something we already knew "could" happen, right? He doesn't even present this info with the common, "undisclosed sources say" part. Meaning this is simply speculation on his part... which makes it no more important to me than if you or I were speculating on these possibilities. I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware. This info likely comes from a tweet, there is no official news story to look into. So this news says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know. It proves nothing. It's ESPN at it's finest.
Actually, that KFFL report is taken out of context.
Pat uses 'could' in the sense that the option is available to us, not in the sense that we are likely to do so.
The full sentence in his ESPN report is here and all he was saying is that they option is available, but it would mean a $9 million cap cost (yes, he IS aware of cap rules).
Whomever posted it to KFFL, however, took it upon themselves to jazz up the headline... one of the reasons that I have always disliked KFFL. They don't actually report anything, they are simply a source aggregation point, but they do tend to play the tabloid game with article titles.
Pat Mc's full report:
2014 Free agents: C Alex Mack, Gs Shawn Lauvao and Oniel Cousins
The good: Alex Mack had a strong season and went to the Pro Bowl.
Mack
The bad: Nobody knows where Mack will play in 2014. He was drafted by the Browns and has known nothing but losing and change since he joined the team. It only seems logical that he will test the free agent market. There are glaring needs at guard, where the Browns have John Greco and Jason Pinkston but hardly seem committed to either (even though they signed Greco to a contract extension a year ago). Lauvao did not have a good season, but it seems like he could be a better player than he’s shown. Regardless, he’ll do it with another team as the Browns probably will not bring him back.
The money: No decisions will be based on money. Greco has the highest salary cap figure at $2.43 million.
Draft priority: The real priority should be to re-sign Mack. The Browns could franchise him, but that might mean a $9 million cap cost. That’s something the team can afford, but not something Joe Banner has indicated he believes in doing for a center. Re-signing Mack means keeping some stability on the line, keeping a smart player with savvy in calling protections, and avoiding creating a hole that need not exist. Not keeping Mack adds another position to the list of needs, and if Mack is not back it’s conceivable the Browns could have three new starters on the interior of the line in 2014.
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i dunno if i agree with the run blocking part.
thomas and mack proved they have some really good push at the LOS. unfortunately, they are only 2 in the 5 needed for good run blocking. our G's and the RT suck at that. period. maybe if we upgrade the pieces around Thomas and Mack, we can start seeing some improvement.
case in point. the 4 game win streak in 2009. that o line run blocking was straight up nasty, and mack was apart of that. our Guards were straight up raping and pillaging the LOS and at the second level.
Well ok 6 years ago maybe. The truth is the oline needs overhauled less Thomas and maybe Mack. Replacing Mack isn't going to upset the apple cart, because the cart is already upside down, missing wheels, and apples are rotting in the road.
The price tag to franchise Mack is just too high, LT money,
Didn't they add some sort of "secondary" franchise-type clause in the new CBA?
We need some way to nail him down for at least another year, IMO no way Banner pays that kind of money for a center. I don't think I would, either.
Replacing Mack, likely with Greco, will likely be a bit of a downgrade in an already problem area. OL has to be solid to work in the new QB, we keep giving up 50 sacks a year it won't matter which QB we draft.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why not? Unless our front office wants to be big spenders in free agency I don't see the problem with tagging Mack. We're probably going to be releasing guys like Bess, Weeden and Little too.
According to this http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/cap-hit/2014/ that would result in a net cap hit of $1.2 million.
Releasing Campbell would add $3.25 million in space.
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If you would have said that last season or any other season prior to now, I'd not have thought about arguing with you. But damn, he was just selected and played well in, the Pro Bowl.
He's been selected to probowl before. That's not his first, I know that. But just cause the guy's selected doesn't mean he's that good. Plenty of overrated players in the probowl. Heck, I voted for him to be in the probowl (as I did for most of our players, lol)
May be it's just me, I just never found him very good, he's not that good at picking up interior blitzing LBs who come delayed, and while he's athletic, I just don't think he's a road grader at all when we're trying to run the ball up the middle.
Doesn't impress me that much. Just a big name. Is he better than Jeff Faine was for us? I guess. But as I said, nothing special IMO. Def not worthy of the franchise tag.
And man it pissed me off when he snapped that ball over Weeden's head near the endzone and caused that safety. (which was actually a heads up play by Weeden, props to him for kicking that ball out of the endzone, anything but letting the defense jump on the ball)
IMO his biggest strength is probably his toughness and durability. He doesn't miss games.
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And man it pissed me off when he snapped that ball over Weeden's head near the endzone and caused that safety
One messed up snap out of how many? LOL Come on man, I don't know of anyone that's perfect 100% of the time.
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IMO his biggest strength is probably his toughness and durability. He doesn't miss games.
That's pretty big no? He's durable, dependable, tough as nails, doesn't miss games and doesn't make a ton of mistakes. That's pretty important.
Tell ya what, using your grading curve, I'd have never made it out of high school let alone college
Oh and yeah, you were right, he was selected to the PB in 2010,, I forgot about that.
I'm not even sure Thomas should have been in some of his pro bowls. Highly doubt anyone will factor Mack's 2 when making decisions...
I'll openly admit to not being very knowledgeable in grading OL... but I would have to say it's pretty hard to grade Mack since he has been sandwiched between fairly poor OG play most of his time here and the OL is the one unit that probably requires more consistent playing time together than any other.
I'm fairly confidant that he is an above average player so if we have to overpay him for a year to avoid creating another hole to fill... as long as that doesn't prevent us from signing somebody else that might have more of an impact, I'm not sure why anybody would be against it.
Yeah, we have $40 in cap room this off-season, and only 2 free agents of note in Mack and Ward.
Other than them we have Billy Cundiff, O'Neil Cousins, Shaun Lauvao, and Willis McGahee as free agents. No absolutely necessary pieces there.
We have 10 draft picks. Last year the highest draft pool was just under $8 million for year one. Let's assume that $8 million is the number there. That lowers our available cap space to $32 million.
If we sign Mack to a 1 year deal worth $11 million (est) that leaves us $21 million to work with as far as free agents go. With as many draft picks as we have, we aren't going to go sign a billion free agents. Let's say we do as last year, and sign 2 players to contracts worth approx $8 million in year one. (or throughout their contracts as we did with Kruger and Bryant) That would leave us $5 million for minor deals. (which we are likely to see few of)
If we need room, we can cut Jason Campbell and pick up $3 million in salary, plus $250K in a March roster bonus.
Quentin Groves is worth another $1 million next year. If he doesn't fit, he could be used to gain cap space.
D'Qwell Jackson could also be cut/moved if the team does not feel that he is worth his deal. (or they could redo his deal) He has a $4 million roster bonus due in March.
Rubin is also a $6.6 million player, plus a $300K workout bonus. This is the last year of his deal, and if we wanted to clear max room, we could cut him.
Those are the bigger numbers, as far as I can tell. We have a ton of young players we could cut to gain small amounts of cap space.
Weeden signed a 4 year deal as a rookie, with the 1st 3 years guaranteed, as is $920K of his 4th season. He received a $4.3 signing bonus. His salary for this year is fully guaranteed, so it might make sense to keep him as the 3rd string QB. Cutting him would cost us $4,12 million, and keeping him on the roster would cost us $2.2 million.
I would expect that the Browns might try to dispute Bess' deal and void his bonuses and guarantees, given his behavior. I know that his deal included $5.75 million in guarantees, but I am not sure how it is structured. If it was divided equally, as might be expected, then he would have $4.3 million to count against the cap, with his salary of $3.1 million deducted from that amount. (as cap cost) So cutting him would cost us $4.3 million, and keeping him would cost us $3.1 million. I don't see $1 million as a breaking point in either direction, but I do expect the Browns to dispute his contract.
Overall though, I don't expect us to make any huge moves with out more expensive players. Maybe DQ or Rubin might be asked to take a pay cut if we need space to sign someone. (like Ward, or a 3rd name free agent .... or a big name)
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Releasing Campbell would add $3.25 million in space.
Bye Jason!! Hope your ribs feel better...
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I'll openly admit to not being very knowledgeable in grading OL... but I would have to say it's pretty hard to grade Mack since he has been sandwiched between fairly poor OG play most of his time here and the OL is the one unit that probably requires more consistent playing time together than any other.
But that's just it. Four of the five played together last year (who started the season this year) and the fifth joined midway. Injuries happen in the NFL, sure it would be nice to have an O-Line that's played together season after season, but realistically that just doesn't normally happen.
Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
I get that meshing is key, but it's hard to beat out the amount of time last year's O-Line put in together IMO. Joe Thomas, Greco (who's consistently been our LG because Pinkston got a heart condition), Mack, Lavao, Schwartz. First game we sucked with Cousins really playing bad, but how many games did he play?
And Mack should be boosting the play of Greco and Lavao. I just don't see it. He's a FA, and seeing that he's been to two probowls, this year being one, he'll probably command big money. I say, no! LOL
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Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
Are you sure this wasn't a Madden franchise, or a dream that you had?
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Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
Are you sure this wasn't a Madden franchise, or a dream that you had?
Haha, Steve McKinney or something like that. The one with the neck injury
EDIT: Seth McKinney. I got the "S" at the beginning of the name right at least. Sure woulda been nice to have Hutchinson on that team though, lol. I remember wanting him in FA when he left the Seahawks or Vikings and got that giant contract......
Hold on though. Eric Steinbach, was he the LG on that team? And RG was Seth McKinney until Tucker took over?
Browns should have Mack/Ward sit down with Pettine and let him try to sell his viewpoints and philosophy and how he's going to turn things around.
Apparently it was good enough to wow our FO.
Well, it is interesting to see that we all have different opinions on these guys.
Personally, I think Mack is very good. Here is why:
--He is strong enough to handle the big NTs in the this league, including Ngata in Baltimore.
--He is extremely smart. He makes great line calls. Rarely do you see guys run in free against our OL, This is a huge asset.
--He can block on the second level. Think about that screen pass where Little gained all those yards. Mack and Joe T. were well down field paving the way.
--His durability is outstanding. As mentioned, he's never missed a game.
I think we need to keep this guy. Not sure it will happen, but he does impress me and our OL will suffer if he leaves.
On the other hand, I could care less if we let Ward walk. Very overrated. Inconsistent tackler and poor in coverage. He's okay, but I would not pay him top safety money.
just some notes on what I have read.
1. our OL is a lot better than most of you apparently think. Not a stat guy especially for OL but that site most are gaga about pff?? Final 2013 rating had us at #5 (Bengals were #2) Steelers and Ravens dragged behind.
2. I doubt Banner would consider the tag...yes we have the one year room but it would damage all future negotiations...agents would be drooling for us to do that.
3. If Mack leaves - and if he doesn't want to be here then I really don't care, let him go. Greco would be our starting Center.
4. We could draft a center or guard high to start.
5. Hard to convince him now considering we don't have an OC or a system.
jmho
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3. If Mack leaves - and if he doesn't want to be here then I really don't care, let him go. Greco would be our starting Center.
I am shocked at this sentiment with both Mack and Ward. We have top quality players, we need to keep them. Any player we bring in to replace them will be worse. We do not need more holes to fill.
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Browns should have Mack/Ward sit down with Pettine and let him try to sell his viewpoints and philosophy and how he's going to turn things around.
Apparently it was good enough to wow our FO.
It would be the same old news/rhetoric that they've heard from the previous regimes. Besides, I am sure Pettine has addressed the entire team with a similar "I think of things like this..." and "I will do that, this way, this way that way" talk. At this point, it boils down to likely two things. Will/passion to continue to be a Brown on a failing team and learn another system, and the $.
Just let Mack go already. Hes too expensive. Let Greco play center he wasn't much at guard so maybe he's better at center .Plan B, check the waiver wire. The next Oniel Cousins is there at bargain prices. What could go wrong?
Everyone agrees the best way to develop a franchise QB is to challenge him. Anybody can play QB on on the team with good blockers and WRs that catch the ball. We need a QB forged in adversity.What better way to mental toughness/ illness than to operate behind a waiver wire line and then bounce the ball off Little or Bess. This goes for our next RB too.Good RBs dodge defenders and carry tacklers down the field they don't need no stinkin help from expensive centers.
All the mocks have us taking a QB at 4 so lets save the cap space until the next Payton Manning shows up.
When I'm watching football with my ever increasing Steeler fan friends I love to rub their noses in all the cap space we have.
Trust me, follow this plan and the Pettine Zoo will go wild.
??? never wanted him to go....just stating if he doesn't want to be here, that is not a situation you want. maybe not that bad but Lynch didn't want to be in Buffalo and played his way out. But he is a great RB in Seattle.
Mack might want to go...which means tag (I doubt it) or make him an offer he can't refuse...doubt we would over spend. I did read somewhere that he would give us a last shot whatever that means. The reality is we signed Greco in the case Mack left so we wouldn't have a big fall out. I think at one time Greco was making the calls???
Is it a downgrade...probably. But I don't wish a Cancer here...I'm sure Mack will be ok but I'm thinking if we get in a little slump what will happen.
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Just let Mack go already. Hes too expensive. Let Greco play center he wasn't much at guard so maybe he's better at center .Plan B, check the waiver wire. The next Oniel Cousins is there at bargain prices. What could go wrong?
You already answered yourself, 'the next Oniel Cousins is there at a bargain', translated means: the next hardly even back-up material is there for a bargain price. Replacing an entity with crap is not technically an advancement forward. Cousins is bad at tackle, and bad at guard. He serves virtually no purpose other than he's a cheap "oh crap" guy you plug in when someone goes down. Thanks, but no thanks.
JMO
Mack has been nothing but a model citizen his entire tenure with the team. There is no reason to think he will go rogue now.
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3. If Mack leaves - and if he doesn't want to be here then I really don't care, let him go. Greco would be our starting Center.
I am shocked at this sentiment with both Mack and Ward. We have top quality players, we need to keep them. Any player we bring in to replace them will be worse. We do not need more holes to fill.
I'd rather keep Mack, too, though if he doesn't want to sign here I don't know if I'd franchise him. I'm not a fan of the franchise tag and as we saw with Dawson, it builds some resentment.
If we end up needing to draft a center, I'd take Linsley from OSU in the 6th or 7th. The only center I like better is Stork, and I don't like him that much better. I like him more than Swanson and Richburg. Tyler Larson looked pretty good at the senior bowl, too.
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But that's just it. Four of the five played together last year (who started the season this year) and the fifth joined midway. Injuries happen in the NFL, sure it would be nice to have an O-Line that's played together season after season, but realistically that just doesn't normally happen.
Injuries do happen.. I just don't think we have had good guard play since Steinbach left...
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I'm not a fan of the franchise tag and as we saw with Dawson, it builds some resentment.
I'd rather have a player build resentment playing for my team than being happy on another team. At least push back the need another year.
j/c
I think Mack resigns because of Joe T. Who wouldn't want to play on a line with the best LT in football. Of course it all boils down to money, if the Browns pay him as deserved they will keep him. If another team is willing to way overpay, then Browns should let him go.
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You already answered yourself,
moe was being sarcastic and he did a fine job w/it. LOL
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On the other hand, I could care less if we let Ward walk
you don't say. i don't think anyone on the entire board knew that about your opinion on him until today 
Any good Buffalo defensive FAs who may want to follow their coaches?
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Just let Mack go already. Hes too expensive. Let Greco play center he wasn't much at guard so maybe he's better at center
Was that supposed to be in Purple?
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Any good Buffalo defensive FAs who may want to follow their coaches?
oh, just the best FS in the NFL, Jarius Byrd. Hmm, it seems we lack in FS skill.
(though the Bills are as likely to franchise him as we are Ward, so not likely an option even though it would be the 2nd tag for Byrd and cost Buffalo a little more $$)
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Any good Buffalo defensive FAs who may want to follow their coaches?
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Alex Carrington, DT
Arthur Moats, LB
Jairus Byrd, S
Jim Leonhard, S
That is all of them right there. Obviously Byrd is the one that stands out.
Could absolutely see a swap for Oregon safties, Byrd for Ward. If we're paying them close to the same money, I'd much rather have Byrd.
.. " I just don't think we have had good guard play since Steinbach left... "
That is the honest to God truth
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Could absolutely see a swap for Oregon safties, Byrd for Ward. If we're paying them close to the same money, I'd much rather have Byrd.
we have tons of cap $$$, no reason we cannot have both (if Bills don't franchise Byrd).
thats what i'm saying.
why do people want to swap them 2? Byrd is a FS and Ward is a SS. we should aim to have them both.
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Who wouldn't want to play on a line with the best LT in football.
The 90-100 OL guys that were in the playoffs... the 120 OL guys that get to block for a competent QB (granted there is a lot of overlap there)...
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Could absolutely see a swap for Oregon safties, Byrd for Ward. If we're paying them close to the same money, I'd much rather have Byrd.
we have tons of cap $$$, no reason we cannot have both (if Bills don't franchise Byrd).
I don't think they can franchise Byrd. Didn't they last season and can't do it two years in a row?
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Could absolutely see a swap for Oregon safties, Byrd for Ward. If we're paying them close to the same money, I'd much rather have Byrd.
we have tons of cap $$$, no reason we cannot have both (if Bills don't franchise Byrd).
I don't think they can franchise Byrd. Didn't they last season and can't do it two years in a row?
They can but they get charged some ridiculous charge like a 120% increase from the previous season.
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Could absolutely see a swap for Oregon safties, Byrd for Ward. If we're paying them close to the same money, I'd much rather have Byrd.
we have tons of cap $$$, no reason we cannot have both (if Bills don't franchise Byrd).
I don't think they can franchise Byrd. Didn't they last season and can't do it two years in a row?
yes, they franchised Byrd last year. they can franchise him again this year, but they have to do it at a penalty of higher cost. other than $$$, there is nothing restricting them from doing it.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...ened-for-reason
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Teams can continuously franchise players, but it'll cost them to do that. As had been the case previously, a player tagged a second straight year would have his number set at 120 percent of the previous figure. A third straight year? That's where things change, and the percentage goes up to 144.
Didn't we franchise Phil Dawson, twice in a row?
Yes we did. As stated, the second time is at a higher cost. A player can be franchised three times in a row if my memory serves me...
Man....
We just need to sign these guys long term. And focus on the holes that were already there, instead of creating more.
I mean... The FO sold this job with the part of have all-pros.
It's like, IMO, if I was interviewing, and part of the sales pitch was we have 6 all-pro players, I expect to have 6 all pro players went OTA's and training camp starts.
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Man....
We just need to sign these guys long term. And focus on the holes that were already there, instead of creating more.
I mean... The FO sold this job with the part of have all-pros.
Agreed.
"Cleveland Browns: Trying to fill the colander since 1999."
I have to think they're not going to just let them walk without an offer. A lot of it has got to be if they want to stay or not. Re-signing guys isn't just "check 'yes' or 'no'"
If they don't want to stay, that's one thing.
Being cheap, is another.
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Yeah, we have $40 in cap room this off-season...
Well, that might get us Jamarcus Russell and a ham sandwhich.
I wanna see Lombardi, Jimmy and Banner all fight over that ham sandwich! Throw it to the floor and may the best man win, ha ha ha...
I'd love to sign Mitchell Schwartz brother Geoff Schwartz. He's bigger that Mitchell and he plays guard. He started quite a few games on the Chiefs offensive line including playoffs.
Geoff is the kind of strong power OL guy we lack
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Just let Mack go already. Hes too expensive. Let Greco play center he wasn't much at guard so maybe he's better at center
Was that supposed to be in Purple?
Of course that was sarcasm.
That's the problem with people using purple ...... it weakens some people's own sense of sarcasm into mush.
J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
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J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
Just went through pages 4-6, and haven't seen any posts by you explain what makes Mack anything special. Care to explain what is so "nonsensical" to you. And why 99% of us who know less about O-Line play than you should keep our mouth shut? (as you obviously know better, because you know enough that we shouldn't be posting our thoughts on this message board). What makes him a "very good center"?
I understand you're probably posting on your phone, but in addition to insulting folks who think that Mack is overrated, at least give some reasons as to why he isn't
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J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
Did you see where I said "Of course it was sarcasm"?
Maybe people who know nothing about sarcasm should heep their mouths shut?
Geesh.
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Did you see where I said "Of course it was sarcasm"?
Maybe people who know nothing about sarcasm should heep their mouths shut?
Geesh.
He did say "J/C Ytown" meaning Just Clicking. So I don't think he meant you at all.
I figured he was referencing people like myself who simply didn't think that Mack was much of anything above an average NFL center.
I suppose that could be. I dunno.
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Well, it is interesting to see that we all have different opinions on these guys.
Personally, I think Mack is very good. Here is why:
--He is strong enough to handle the big NTs in the this league, including Ngata in Baltimore.
--He is extremely smart. He makes great line calls. Rarely do you see guys run in free against our OL, This is a huge asset.
--He can block on the second level. Think about that screen pass where Little gained all those yards. Mack and Joe T. were well down field paving the way.
--His durability is outstanding. As mentioned, he's never missed a game.
I think we need to keep this guy. Not sure it will happen, but he does impress me and our OL will suffer if he leaves.
On the other hand, I could care less if we let Ward walk. Very overrated. Inconsistent tackler and poor in coverage. He's okay, but I would not pay him top safety money.
Would you be OK with us Tagging a Center at whatever the figure is? 9-11M?
That's incredibly stupid for what is mostly considered the LEAST important position on any offense.
I have zero problem with sliding Greco over and getting one new quality OG via draft or FA.
No way should this Tag thing for a Center or a Guard be the average of any OL including LT's. That's just blind stupidity. And Goodell is right there attached to it. Just like a Super Bowl in NYC in February and the possible killing off of extra points.
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I suppose that could be. I dunno.
Still think the purple font's a bad idea?
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I'd love to sign Mitchell Schwartz brother Geoff Schwartz. He's bigger that Mitchell and he plays guard. He started quite a few games on the Chiefs offensive line including playoffs.
I'd like Schwartz as well. I was hoping we would have pursued him last offseason. He only signed a 1-yr/$700,000 contract. I thought that was weird and he'd get more money, but he did come off injuries didn't he?
I think it would be fun watching the Schwartz brothers playing next to each other, and coming from personal experience, I think it would be an added motivator to play alongside your brother(s). I mean who wouldn't want to be better than your big/little brother? It makes for great holiday conversation when everyone's around 
Anyways,
He made the All AFC West Team (ProFootballFocus)
Left Guard: Geoff Schwartz (KC)
Schwartz’s return to a regular starting gig in the season’s second half saw him do more of what he does… put up green grades. Top-20 ratings as both a pass blocker and as a run blocker added up to the league’s eighth-best overall mark for a guard as the versatile performer got time in on both sides of the line.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/21/2013-pff-all-afc-west-team/
Then there is this (also from ProFootballFocus)
20. Kansas City Chiefs
Stud: He finally got his chance and boy did Geoff Schwartz (+18.6) deliver. A capable and versatile lineman, his play ensured that the team couldn’t switch back to Jon Asamoah (who wasn’t playing badly himself).
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/2/
The one thing that caught be off guard was he won the accolade at LG. I thought he was a RG. No biggie but maybe his "versatility" mentioned could allow him to play either Guard position depending on what we decide to do at the other spot....whether FA, draft, or current roster player.
Either way, he's on my very short list for FA.
Just like to clear things up - possibly???
1. I do not want Mack to leave its sets a precedent that I do not wish to see over again. But if he truly does not want to be here I would rather let him go than make $ his motive to stay.
2. I mentioned Greco because it was set up to be that way...maybe just leverage in negotiations or actually a safe guard preparation to let Mack Walk.
3. I'm all for getting Mitchell Schwart's brother...let them for a right side tandem. Hopefully they like each other and this would keep both here for a long time. Assuming they make a good tandem. Then we either sign Mack, or draft high an OG or C with Greco and Pinkston to fill in where ever.
BC...what happened there? sometimes its hard to get the message across on a message board...no big deal.
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just like to clear things up - possibly???
1. I do not want Mack to leave its sets a precedent that I do not wish to see over again. But if he truly does not want to be here I would rather let him go than make $ his motive to stay.
2. I mentioned Greco because it was set up to be that way...maybe just leverage in negotiations or actually a safe guard preparation to let Mack Walk.
3. I'm all for getting Mitchell Schwart's brother...let them for a right side tandem. Hopefully they like each other and this would keep both here for a long time. Assuming they make a good tandem. Then we either sign Mack, or draft high an OG or C with Greco and Pinkston to fill in where ever.
BC...what happened there? sometimes its hard to get the message across on a message board...no big deal.
I agree.
I don't want Mack to leave but if the FO thinks it's possible he doesn't want to play in Cleveland anymore....let him walk. I wouldn't want to have to vastly overpay him just to keep him in Cleveland if money is the only reason why he re-signs. If mentally he is already gone, it makes no sense and good luck to the guy in the future. Same thought process goes for any player, really. Whether the FA class of our in 2014, 2015, etc.
The Greco extension really shocked me last offseason. I did not see that coming. Of all the proactive moves we could have made long-term (like Mack, Ward, Haden) we approached Greco? It seemed off. He played well in when Pinkston went down but didn't think it was good enough to give him a FIVE year extension. One thing about the contract it is only guaranteed at $1.3M and if he doesn't start, his base salary goes down. So if Mack would stay, and/or the FO wants to upgrade the LG spot with someone else, he goes back to a very low base.
*Speculation* I think the FO believes there is a very good chance Mack walks. I'm not suggesting Mack approached the FO about it (although it could have happened) or that they even have inside information on the matter, but the move to extend Greco ( and the way his contract is set up) does screams " BACK UP PLAN" to me and others, I'm sure as it has been suggested previously.
It's smart to have something like this in place, but the question then becomes, IF Mack leaves, is Greco the adequate replacement after watching him in 2013?
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Well, it is interesting to see that we all have different opinions on these guys.
Personally, I think Mack is very good. Here is why:
--He is strong enough to handle the big NTs in the this league, including Ngata in Baltimore.
--He is extremely smart. He makes great line calls. Rarely do you see guys run in free against our OL, This is a huge asset.
--He can block on the second level. Think about that screen pass where Little gained all those yards. Mack and Joe T. were well down field paving the way.
--His durability is outstanding. As mentioned, he's never missed a game.
I think we need to keep this guy. Not sure it will happen, but he does impress me and our OL will suffer if he leaves.
On the other hand, I could care less if we let Ward walk. Very overrated. Inconsistent tackler and poor in coverage. He's okay, but I would not pay him top safety money.
Would you be OK with us Tagging a Center at whatever the figure is? 9-11M?
That's incredibly stupid for what is mostly considered the LEAST important position on any offense.
I have zero problem with sliding Greco over and getting one new quality OG via draft or FA.
No way should this Tag thing for a Center or a Guard be the average of any OL including LT's. That's just blind stupidity. And Goodell is right there attached to it. Just like a Super Bowl in NYC in February and the possible killing off of extra points.
We have the cap space and an owner who isn't afraid to spend money. Why are you acting like it's your money?
If a franchise tag or the threat of a franchise tag is enough to keep mack here, i say we do it.
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J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
Evidently people don't like your advice because they are still talking about it.
Good argument. I'll address a couple of things:
--I don't really agree w/center being the least important offensive position. It's certainly more important than a FB. It's more important than your guards. It is close in importance of the RT and in some offenses, it is more important than the TE.
--I think what people forget is the importance of making line calls pre-snap. Mack is very intelligent and puts us in good situations. Our pass blocking has been good the past couple of years. People were up in arms because of the sacks, but man, that was more Weeden than anything else.
--I do understand not paying him the same money as top LT's. That's very logical on your part. It's as stupid as paying a SS the same amount of money as the top FS's in the game. I really think they should look at how they categorize these guys when it comes to franchising/tagging them. No way should a RG and LT be in the same pay category. No way should a SS be grouped w/a FS. Do they group FB's and RB's together, too?
This part isn't to you. I realize that some of you get upset when I voice my opinion on Ward, but why didn't you get upset when people were bad-mouthing Mack? Furthermore, haven't many of you voiced your positive opinion on Ward over and over? Look at Swish..........he actually gets offended if someone mentions not paying Ward big money. It's like they are related. It's all opinion, fellas. No need to stomp out opposing opinions.
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We have the cap space and an owner who isn't afraid to spend money. Why are you acting like it's your money?
If a franchise tag or the threat of a franchise tag is enough to keep mack here, i say we do it.
Why are people acting it's their money???
Because this is a message board for THEIR team. And people constantly opine about how they should spend cap money. It's fun to speculate and guess what they may be thinking. Plus for those people that want to the FO to use the money we have wisely ( which may be very active in FA, although this is not my avenue of thinking) this may not fall into that category.
Personally, I think it is a rather shallow thought process to believe the FO should use a franchise tag on a player just because they have the cap space, especially when it comes to a Center making LT money, even if for one year. That doesn't make any financial sense no matter how much available money exists.
Also, and this is something that scares me....Banner and Lombardi are on notice, I think. Well, at least Lombardi is. I think they have to show Haslem the Browns can win with them leading the personnel show and FA could be a way to remedy that to win now or at least show vast improvement from 2013 to 2014. So, IF that is the case, would franchising a Center at LT money make sense towards that endeavor? I don't think so. It would limit the talent level of players, and the amount of, they could pursue. Unless I am mistaken and misreading other posters' comments on this, that would be roughly 25% of available cap money in 2014. Again, I could be wrong on this, but if not, this doesn't make sense.
I think they'll try real hard to re-sign Mack long term. But don't think they should tag him at the expense of filling other holes they may want to address or other extensions (and the subsequent structuring of money) they may be thinking about.
yes, I also want to keep Mack, but likely not at franchise level $$. unless our FO thinks we won't use that $$ next year and we get Ward signed to a multi-year deal ahead of time. then, it's only a 1year cap-hit.
but, let's assume that Mack leaves. how much we feel the hit will depend on what our FO does next. I think Greco can play OC. I'm not sure how he'd do calling out protections as he hasn't had to do it yet. Steinbach used to call them for the OL, so we just need to get someone on the OL (preferably the interior) to be able to do it.
Next step, I see others are on the Geoff Schwartz bandwagon as well. I like him alot. He can play either OG spot and is a power guy, which we need on our OL. He isn't the most experienced guy though, so I'm not sure he'd be our protection caller. I guess we could see who between him and Greco did the best there. At that point, we could use one of our top4 picks on an OG.
in the draft:
Gabe Jackson - hey, he'd be great, but I think we'd have to spend our #26 on him if he even lasts that long. I much prefer getting QB/WR with our top2 picks, so he's likely out.
2nd rounder - OG/CB/S/ILB are the positions I would consider here. There are more OG, so we likely wait on OG until the 3rd round (especially since we do have some internal depth there though I'd like to improve on who is starting). If we do wait, then here are the guys to consider:
Martin, ND - just in case he drops, unlikely.
Yankey, Stanford - same. I think both of these guys go early 2nd.
Sua-Filo, UCLA - I really like him. He played all over the OL for UCLA and was good at run & pass blocking. He started as a freshman in 2009 (all pac-10), then went on missions for 2 years and came back to start on the OL. He's an impressive player and person and I would absolutely LOVE for him to be a Brown.
Brandon Linder, U-Miami - Steen & Tre Jackson get more pub, but Linder is the better overall blocker IMO. He has good feet and good hands. he is a power-blocker type who once he gets his hands on someone, they stay there and he drives well. it seemed like the Canes had Duke run behind him anytime they needed a good run. He would be a RG in the NFL (though he played both RG & RT for the Canes). He needs to improve on his initial step, he was a bit slow with it at times and he relied on his strength too much.
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We have the cap space and an owner who isn't afraid to spend money. Why are you acting like it's your money?
If a franchise tag or the threat of a franchise tag is enough to keep mack here, i say we do it.
Why are people acting it's their money???
Because this is a message board for THEIR team. And people constantly opine about how they should spend cap money. It's fun to speculate and guess what they may be thinking. Plus for those people that want to the FO to use the money we have wisely ( which may be very active in FA, although this is not my avenue of thinking) this may not fall into that category.
Personally, I think it is a rather shallow thought process to believe the FO should use a franchise tag on a player just because they have the cap space, especially when it comes to a Center making LT money, even if for one year. That doesn't make any financial sense no matter how much available money exists.
Also, and this is something that scares me....Banner and Lombardi are on notice, I think. Well, at least Lombardi is. I think they have to show Haslem the Browns can win with them leading the personnel show and FA could be a way to remedy that to win now or at least show vast improvement from 2013 to 2014. So, IF that is the case, would franchising a Center at LT money make sense towards that endeavor? I don't think so. It would limit the talent level of players, and the amount of, they could pursue. Unless I am mistaken and misreading other posters' comments on this, that would be roughly 25% of available cap money in 2014. Again, I could be wrong on this, but if not, this doesn't make sense.
I think they'll try real hard to re-sign Mack long term. But don't think they should tag him at the expense of filling other holes they may want to address or other extensions (and the subsequent structuring of money) they may be thinking about.
Because we've been using our Cap so wisely in recent years. 
By wisely I mean not using it at all. The last time I remember being even close to the cap was with Butch Davis. 
Let's worry about the cap when we're good and up against it, not when we're terrible and have tons of it. Just keep him here, he's going to require probably an 8 mil a year deal, what's 2 mil more for one year?
Literally splitting hairs for a franchise that has a desperate need for good players. If we can't sign him, we tag him or threaten him with a tag. Letting him walk because of cap or money concerns would upset me greatly when we have so much to spend and have been so far under the cap for these years.
Nice, informative posts.
Like how you use to get offended when people bad mouthed Mangini? Or this current FO?
Or how you got all pissed when me and CHS respectfully disagreed about college prospects and the importance or route running?
Might wanna make sure you're straight before you accuse others.
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We have the cap space and an owner who isn't afraid to spend money. Why are you acting like it's your money?
If a franchise tag or the threat of a franchise tag is enough to keep mack here, i say we do it.
Why are people acting it's their money???
Because this is a message board for THEIR team. And people constantly opine about how they should spend cap money. It's fun to speculate and guess what they may be thinking. Plus for those people that want to the FO to use the money we have wisely ( which may be very active in FA, although this is not my avenue of thinking) this may not fall into that category.
Personally, I think it is a rather shallow thought process to believe the FO should use a franchise tag on a player just because they have the cap space, especially when it comes to a Center making LT money, even if for one year. That doesn't make any financial sense no matter how much available money exists.
Also, and this is something that scares me....Banner and Lombardi are on notice, I think. Well, at least Lombardi is. I think they have to show Haslem the Browns can win with them leading the personnel show and FA could be a way to remedy that to win now or at least show vast improvement from 2013 to 2014. So, IF that is the case, would franchising a Center at LT money make sense towards that endeavor? I don't think so. It would limit the talent level of players, and the amount of, they could pursue. Unless I am mistaken and misreading other posters' comments on this, that would be roughly 25% of available cap money in 2014. Again, I could be wrong on this, but if not, this doesn't make sense.
I think they'll try real hard to re-sign Mack long term. But don't think they should tag him at the expense of filling other holes they may want to address or other extensions (and the subsequent structuring of money) they may be thinking about.
Because we've been using our Cap so wisely in recent years.
By wisely I mean not using it at all. The last time I remember being even close to the cap was with Butch Davis.
Let's worry about the cap when we're good and up against it, not when we're terrible and have tons of it. Just keep him here, he's going to require probably an 8 mil a year deal, what's 2 mil more for one year?
Literally splitting hairs for a franchise that has a desperate need for good players. If we can't sign him, we tag him or threaten him with a tag. Letting him walk because of cap or money concerns would upset me greatly when we have so much to spend and have been so far under the cap for these years.
This.....to a tee.
My god people, we franchised a KICKER the last couple of years. Mack is a good centre and we have a buttload of cap space. The tag should at least be used as an option as we evaluate who we wanna go after.
I'm all for keeping Mack unless there's a better deal out there. He's lauded as an excellent center so why are we in such a rush to axe him? Offer a nice big fat deal- he's worth it. If he's determined to play the market, take a look at where else you want to spend dollars and figure out whether hes' worth the bigger hit for a year.
Our FO is not completely stupid. They're not going to let him walk just for the fun of it. Problem is that we aren;t privy to their plans and know who their targets are. This makes a big difference on what kind of deals we offer to our current players.
IMO we have enough spots that need upgrading without creating another at center. Pay him or franchise him, but keep him here.
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Because we've been using our Cap so wisely in recent years.
By wisely I mean not using it at all. The last time I remember being even close to the cap was with Butch Davis.
Let's worry about the cap when we're good and up against it, not when we're terrible and have tons of it. Just keep him here, he's going to require probably an 8 mil a year deal, what's 2 mil more for one year?
Literally splitting hairs for a franchise that has a desperate need for good players. If we can't sign him, we tag him or threaten him with a tag. Letting him walk because of cap or money concerns would upset me greatly when we have so much to spend and have been so far under the cap for these years.
Only worrying about the cap when we are close to it seems short-sided. When we have a good amount of it, use it wisely, and I think we have the last couple of seasons. Tagging Mack is not using it wisely. Your philosophy seems to be spend it just because we have it. I don't agree. I feel we have positioned ourselves to be in a great spot to make sound, educated decisions on signing our own guys long-term WHILE signing select FA to significant contracts.
I say we continue to spend the money on long-term deals with players we want to keep this year, but also being in a position to extend potential Browns' free agents we want who can test the market in 2015. We do have the cap space to structure some of that money now to help us out in the future. Plus if we need to add a piece or two externally in the market, then money exists there too. I think tagging Mack would be a bad idea for my scenario. But then again, it's only my scenario.
-Butch Davis was close against the cap and we paid for it dearly. We cut tons of people (thus tons of dead money) the following year and had next to nothing in terms of talent and were hamstrung on who we could sign....plus we drafted horribly and never had anyone worth keeping to begin with.
- Phil Savage also put us in cap hell and, although I don't like him, Mangini walked into a pretty bad situation cap-wise. Good thing for him he had little talent to justify spending significants amounts of money.
But you know what, if Mack and Ward are the only thing on the FO "To-Do" list, then fine tag Mack, get Ward, sign a couple depth guys in FA, allocate $$ to early round draft picks, and continue absorb escalating contracts of our own guys. Then bare down for the 2015 free agent class of the Cleveland Browns, because again, there are more decisions to be made in this class than the group set for the market this March. And this class of 2015 is also a reason why ONLY worrying about the cap when we reach it is short-sided.
There are many other decision that need to be talked about now that effect the cap in the future like the contracts of Haden, Taylor, Cameron, Sheard, Gipson, Hoyer (for all those that like him long term), Dion Lewis, Ahtyba Rubin, Buster Skrine.
But hey, let's go crazy in 2014, get near the cap and then ONLY worry about what moves to make with some of our own guys in 2015. If we're close, heck, we can cut players, make some financial progress getting under the cap while absorbing dead money. Then, we may only be able to re-sign a portion of the players we really wanted to while having little presence in the overall FA market.
I understand why some people want to spend the money because we've had the money to do it in recent years and we've opted to, for the most part, remain quiet in FA and to some extent silent with our own guys. I think last year was the first year since Savage we actually spent a ton of money in the market.
The difference is (IMO) we have much tougher decisions with players on our roster than ever before. Since DQ was drafted in 2006, what players were worthy or justified long term deals.....Joe Thomas, DQ, Cribbs, Rubin, Dawson (HA)? Five guys actually worth in the past EIGHT years? If we had zilch talent, than I'd be more likely to agree with what you are saying. However, I think the talent pool with our own team changes the game and puts us in a situation the Browns have never been in. And I think this position behooves the FO to spend $$ wisely with several extensions of players who'd be free agents this March AND next March. For example, take Kruger's contract..... The FO was able to structure his deal so that an extra $6.3M to total $20M dead money was absorbed in 2013, thus allowing the cap hit of the remaining years equal throughout and the dead money diminishing from $20M-to-$11M-to just $3M in three years. I think that was a great idea and should be a theme signing FA in 2014 AND 2015 when the money is available now. Allocatiing 25% of 2014 cap space to makes that exponentially difficult--at least in my preferred scenario to the upcoming FA. Adding more guaranteed/dead money to the 2014 cap for several long term deals early in the contract life seems like a more financially sound approach. Banner did it with Kruger AND Desmond Bryant. I would expect him to package deals similar to this....why not take advantage of 2014 cap space to do just that?
Plus coupling in the trajectory of some of the 2015 free agents' stock, if the FO thinks they're gonna take up less money now than in a year from now, it also makes sense to lock those up with 2014 cap space.
In summation, there are tons of long term ramification to the money available now. I would not play the waiting game and worry about a problem only when it comes upon us.
I don't think the issue at all is about Cap Space n keeping him here.
I don't think Banner even would think about Franchising Mack...no way he signs a long term contract if we do that he'll run to that tender and sign it...next year he gets a 20% raise on it.
But Banner will not jeopardize future negotiations - Lets say Shwartz improves and is looking for his 2nd contract in a couple of seasons. His agent will start with - Well you paid Mack X amount of $$$ what is Schwartz then worth. Especially his background as a master bean counter against the cap. I just don't see that as a feasible option. Has nothing to do with wanting him here or not...as mentioned I really hope he stays. Just trying to anticipate the FO thought process.
I think we should tag Mack if only that means we keep him for one more season. Keep your best players for as long as possible. If that means one more season then so be it. If he is on another team you have no chance of convincing him to stay.
Mangini?
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I think we should tag Mack if only that means we keep him for one more season. Keep your best players for as long as possible. If that means one more season then so be it. If he is on another team you have no chance of convincing him to stay.
Bingo 100% agreed, keeping him for another year might convince him to sign a long term deal, but it must be fair for both him and the Browns, we cant tie up Millions of $$$$ on two postions on the line, there still are three other players we need to upgrade at some point.
But common guys we tagged Dawson a kicker, we tagged a kicker for what 2-3 years, yes I know kickers make less and Dawson well he was one of the best but common we tagged a kicker we can tag a Center for a year or two.
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Literally splitting hairs for a franchise that has a desperate need for good players.
We also have a desperate need to improve our reputation to one of a stable and winning organization... allowing good players to walk isn't going to help us do that. If we want FA in the near future to consider coming here (without grossly overpaying for them) then we need to show improvement on the field and stability as an organization... taking the hard line with your better players isn't going to help.
It is definitely a balancing act that Banner/Lombardi are going to have to walk and walk well over the next couple years since we finally have players that other teams might actually want...
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since we finally have players that other teams might actually want...
What are you talking about? The Broncos have always wanted our players.
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...put us in cap hell ...
I don't believe Banner will allow that to happen if what he said about "sustainability" is factual. This is where, apparently, his strength lies and where his major impact will particularly be felt.
I agree with Memphis in that future planning is essential for the long term success. The 2014 cap is projected to be 126.3 million, but I'm not sure about the minimum. I don't want to lose either Mack or Ward, but if it is going to negatively affect our financial plans, then goodbye...
It would take a lot to screw up our current cap situation. We don't even have to pay a QB for at least five more years (unless we trade for an established NFL player before then).
While Ward and Mack will demand expensive contracts there is no reason to think we can't retain them. Other teams retain their elite players all the time AND they are paying their QBs $20 million a season.
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...there is no reason to think we can't retain them.
As I stated above, I would much prefer to keep them, and I believe we can knowing the cap space we currenttly enjoy. But you do have to be careful in maintaining a balance...
I think we're currently 42M under the cap (or will be once we cut Weeden and Campbell - which I think is inevitable).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/18908...ial-re-signingsI think there is plenty of money to resign Mack and Ward - and then also grab another top FA, without being anywhere close to the cap numbers. Even if we go over the actual cap by a bit (by using rollover money) - there is $7M in dead money on the cap in 2014 which will come off the books in 2015 (mostly to Richardson).
I would bring back both if we could.
Mack is gone. Going to have to tag him.
We'll see how it plays out.
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It would take a lot to screw up our current cap situation.
We're just lucky that coaches don't count against the cap.
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It would take a lot to screw up our current cap situation.
We're just lucky that coaches don't count against the cap.
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I wanna see Lombardi, Jimmy and Banner all fight over that ham sandwich! Throw it to the floor and may the best man win, ha ha ha...
At least two of them would want trade the ham sandwich away for bologna on hand. 
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I would bring back both if we could.
Mack is gone. Going to have to tag him.
We'll see how it plays out.
Has Mack ever said he was gone? Not sure why people are so sure of this?
Only thing he's said for sure, is that he would "Absolutely" give the team the right to match any offer if he hit the free agent market.
Pro Bowl center Alex Mack wants to return to the Browns, and will give the team right of first refusal if he hits the free agent market.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/pro_bowl_center_alex_mack_will.html
"Asked if he'd give the Browns the chance to match or exceed any offer he receives in free agency, Mack said "Oh, absolutely.'''
I think people are assuming things have changed since Chud got canned.
So Ryan Kalil's deal was 6 year $49M with $19M guaranteed. Or about $8M/year.
Given that Mack would probably demand a bit more than that (say 6 year $52M, $21M guaranteed) - franchising at $9M only seems like it's costing an extra $1-2M. It's more than you want to spend, but it's not crazy.
This is especially true if we think Mack's only problem is a new coaching staff (which he may adjust to over the year).
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I think we're currently 42M under the cap (or will be once we cut Weeden and Campbell - which I think is inevitable).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/18908...ial-re-signings
I think there is plenty of money to resign Mack and Ward - and then also grab another top FA, without being anywhere close to the cap numbers. Even if we go over the actual cap by a bit (by using rollover money) - there is $7M in dead money on the cap in 2014 which will come off the books in 2015 (mostly to Richardson).
Weedens dead money doesn't help. Makes more sense to cut Greg Little.
Weeden costs us about $2 million to keep, or $4 million to cut when guarantees are taken into account.
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I think we're currently 42M under the cap (or will be once we cut Weeden and Campbell - which I think is inevitable).
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/18908...ial-re-signings
I think there is plenty of money to resign Mack and Ward - and then also grab another top FA, without being anywhere close to the cap numbers. Even if we go over the actual cap by a bit (by using rollover money) - there is $7M in dead money on the cap in 2014 which will come off the books in 2015 (mostly to Richardson).
Weedens dead money doesn't help. Makes more sense to cut Greg Little.
I bet they don't cut Little. Just a hunch..
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Has Mack ever said he was gone? Not sure why people are so sure of this?
Mack is a friend of Michael SIlver's, and has long been a source for him when it comes to all things Browns.
Many - myself included - are fairly confident that Mack was one of the 'veteran players' ripping the organization after the Chud firing.
I for one would be absolutely shocked if he wasn't.
I can't say one way or the other if he will come back or not. He's been here long enough to develop roots and settle down. That can be hard to walk away from. Not to mention, we've all had employers we were upset with or thought were jokes...doesn't mean we plan to walk away.
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Just trying to anticipate the FO thought process.
It's goes something like this....
Moe: The treasure, we found it!
Larry: Now Jimmy can get his operation!
Curly: There's enough here for all of us to have an operation!
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I can't say one way or the other if he will come back or not. He's been here long enough to develop roots and settle down. That can be hard to walk away from. Not to mention, we've all had employers we were upset with or thought were jokes...doesn't mean we plan to walk away.
While I understand your sentiment most of us don't have the financial freedom to pay others to pack our stuff to move. Then unpack on the otherside. Or an agent to help with a new home purchase on the other side. Nor 31 other employers that would gladly pay us very very well to uproot ourselves. Most of us when we realize our employers are a joke have to stay out of lack of choices or need to keep the lights on. Mack's situation is different I'd say.
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It would take a lot to screw up our current cap situation. We don't even have to pay a QB for at least five more years (unless we trade for an established NFL player before then).
While Ward and Mack will demand expensive contracts there is no reason to think we can't retain them. Other teams retain their elite players all the time AND they are paying their QBs $20 million a season.
I'm assuming you never had to deal with 5 or 10 year projection staffing budget. Any company who hires predominantly at the low end. Assumes employees develop and move up the ladder. One of the biggest obstacles is satisfying compensation preventing talent from walking away while controlling cost. Being the Browns players are young logic states many second contracts will occur roughly at the same time. What once seems like a large cap will rapidly shrink.
As an employee you can out perform yourself out of a job. It is all about ROI. If Browns HR/Scouting department is worth anything, you can bet they take full advantage of that first rookie contract whenever possible. I always thought the players really screwed themselves with that last CBA. Star players will get coin, but grunts will constantly be expendable.
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Star players will get coin, but grunts will constantly be expendable.
Neither of the guys we are talking about are grunts. They are both All-Pro caliber players.
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Star players will get coin, but grunts will constantly be expendable.
Neither of the guys we are talking about are grunts. They are both All-Pro caliber players.
Let me rephrase. Your non billboard players will be expendable. Your flashy ESPN highlight reel play makers will collect most of the cash. I understand Mack is a all-pro, but you draft a new center halfway through the season no one will remember Mack. A center does not show up in the stat column. Thus, my point, if Browns scouting staff is worth anything, you can see a lot of turnover at some positions.
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One of the biggest obstacles is satisfying compensation preventing talent from walking away while controlling cost.
Agreed, bugs. That is, in part, what I was referring to earlier about maintaining balance...
You guys give me a headache w/your constant spin and fabrications.
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J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
I think we've seen posts as angry completely sober.
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I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
Don't sweat it, when I read your post, I figured that was the case. Looked like it was typed via cellphone, and just the way it was written. It was very..... blunt
At least we know how you really feel about the idea of losing Mack
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I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
Don't sweat it, when I read your post, I figured that was the case. Looked like it was typed via cellphone, and just the way it was written. It was very..... blunt
At least we know how you really feel about the idea of losing Mack
LOL.. ok, but based on what he said...
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Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
I'm not sure I do know how he feels.. he's very good but not worth the franchise tag... so he's somewhere in the gray area.. and if we can't meet in the middle we should let Mack walk? Where is that point?
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I'm not sure I do know how he feels.. he's very good but not worth the franchise tag... so he's somewhere in the gray area.. and if we can't meet in the middle we should let Mack walk? Where is that point?
Solid point, I should have said, "At least we know how you feel about the people criticizing Mack's play" lol
What I got from it is that he wants to pay him like a top center, but not like a top tackle.........
The best thing for the Browns would be to work out a deal w/Mack, thereby avoiding losing him or tagging him.
Not sure how confident I am in that happening, though.
I think Mack wanted out before this year. This past season probably did little to change his mind.
I would like to keep Mack,but not for top LT money.
No center who has ever played in the NFL is worth top LT money.It's unfortunate for guards and centers to have their franchise worth lumped in with LTs,but it is what it is.
The Browns are in a precarious position in regards to fan perception,they may very well feel as tho they have to keep Mack to appease the fans.If they do tag him they better be working very,very hard on getting a long term deal done.It's just bad business otherwise.
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The best thing for the Browns would be to work out a deal w/Mack, thereby avoiding losing him or tagging him.
Not sure how confident I am in that happening, though.
I think Mack wanted out before this year. This past season probably did little to change his mind.
I agree with the later two points. I'm not sure that I buy into the first one though. Mack may be a very good center, but there were lesser centers playing in the playoffs. You could replace him without harming your team very much.
If it comes to the point where we're looking at a center being a crucial cog in our team mechanics, we're in more trouble than we'd like to admit.
Ok, I did a quick search and I don't know how reliable this information is... but in 2013 the cap hit for the top 10 centers was between $4.5 and $6.5 million... Mack is already 7th at just over $5 million.. So it doesn't appear that he is grossly underpaid now...
So he is already up there with the other top centers in the NFL.. of course according to this site, Mangold is a curve breaker at $9.1 million but he appears to be an anomaly (is that because he was tagged?)... If Mack gets a deal worth $6.5 million a year he would be the second highest paid center in the NFL.. and from what I've read from most people, something in the $6-$6.5 million range isn't out of the question...
web page
Its not my job to worry about cap numbers unless I'm playing 2k14 and want to sign Lebron.
If you feel like you can get the same results from someone else. Fine. If not bring him back.
Same goes with TJ.
I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
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I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
I think that is what many of us fear. He knows he can likely get the same money on the open market. So, it will really come down to where he wants to play and many of us fear that isn't here.
I expect him to get Andy Levitre $$ in FA (and I would offer him this contract realizing that some of it is funny money. the expected value will be around $7mil/year):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/titans/2013/03/12/tennessee-titans-andy-levitre/1982981/
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I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
I think that is what many of us fear. He knows he can likely get the same money on the open market. So, it will really come down to where he wants to play and many of us fear that isn't here.
I expect him to get Andy Levitre $$ in FA (and I would offer him this contract realizing that some of it is funny money. the expected value will be around $7mil/year):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/titans/2013/03/12/tennessee-titans-andy-levitre/1982981/
He can't possibly get that kind of money,, he's not that good according to some
jc
I don't think you can compare old contracts to one being done now in todays NFL to much. The one done now if the players are simply same level will always be more, and likely a lot more. So old contracts busted the ceiling and newer ones have to top that older one.
So while Mack may or may not be worth it (I think he is) given that he's negotiating a contract now it will end up being more than any other past contract for centers. I see 8 million a year for 4. I see them aiming for Mangold money, but having to setle for a little less.
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I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
For me, if the team is paying him $7/mil per year, they're over paying him. He may want more, but he's a center. He has gotten about $3/mil per year over the length of his expiring contract. You're willing to give him more than double his pay? He's a freaking center.
Sure, it's great to have a top notch one, but I write it again, if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
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He can't possibly get that kind of money,, he's not that good according to some
He isn't playing LG either.
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I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
For me, if the team is paying him $7/mil per year, they're over paying him. He may want more, but he's a center. He has gotten about $3/mil per year over the length of his expiring contract. You're willing to give him more than double his pay? He's a freaking center.
Sure, it's great to have a top notch one, but I write it again, if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
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if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
having decent center play is a lot like having a decent kicker.. nobody thinks about it until you don't have one. Good OL play requires 5 individuals to play in unison and be familiar with each other to the point that the level of play is greater than the sum of the parts.. it only takes one really poor link to make an entire OL look bad and we've seen that before. So you aren't going to win games because of your center, but you can lose games because of your center.
jc
here is what I know.... The wheels on the bus go round and round.
before we drafted Thomas we had a terrible OL. Everyone was livid on this board that we were not investing in OL. the mantra for years and years around here was:
"games are won in the trenches"
now that we have great/above average OL play... everyone wants talent at the skill positions and trade out high quality OL for average at best so we can invest more in the skill players.
from what I have seen... the OL is the more important part of the offense next to the QB.
we can find skill players up and down the street. people constantly find gems in that are UDFA/late round picks.
teams that struggle the most on O are the teams without a good OL.
There may be a few teams that don't struggle but they would be 10x better if their QB wasn't getting killed by a high number of sacks/hits/fast pressure all season.
jmho
funny way of putting it (the wheels thing) but I agree with you..
We have a pretty far about average center and I think we need to keep him and pay him accordingly.
As always, If we can find an upgrade, I'm good with that. it's just that that won't be a very easy task.
thank you
I agree that mack is really good and we would be hard pressed to find any FA OL avail better than him or players in the draft.
I was referring to the overall line play that is above average.
if we pull him out of the mix we are average to mediocre at best.
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What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000316567/article/2014-nfl-free-agents-position
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Centers
Joe Berger, Minnesota Vikings
Ryan Cook, Dallas Cowboys
Brian De La Puente, New Orleans Saints
Evan Dietrich-Smith, Green Bay Packers
Dylan Gandy, Detroit Lions
Roberto Garza, Chicago Bears
Jonathan Goodwin, San Francisco 49ers
Andre Gurode, Oakland Raiders
Joe Hawley, Atlanta Falcons
Dan Koppen, Denver Broncos
Ted Larsen, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Alex Mack, Cleveland Browns
Kevin Matthews, Tennessee Titans
Mike McGlynn, Indianapolis Colts
Brad Meester, Jacksonville Jaguars
Dominic Raiola, Detroit Lions
Chris Spencer, Tennessee Titans
Rob Turner, Tennessee Titans
Steve Vallos, Denver Broncos
Fernando Velasco, Pittsburgh Steelers
Cody Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers
J.D. Walton, Washington Redskins
Ryan Wendell, New England Patriots
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...we would be hard pressed to find any FA OL avail better than him ...
...and at a cheaper price. May as well pay Mack and go with the CONTINUITY. 
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having decent center play is a lot like having a decent kicker.. nobody thinks about it until you don't have one. Good OL play requires 5 individuals to play in unison and be familiar with each other to the point that the level of play is greater than the sum of the parts.. it only takes one really poor link to make an entire OL look bad and we've seen that before. So you aren't going to win games because of your center, but you can lose games because of your center.
Then, you would be in favor of just drafting a whole OL from college then?
Come on now. That's crap. If they can play the position, then they can play the position. Maybe they can be coached to improve their techniques, but if they've played the position, then they can play it.
Why would any team then take on an OL from another team, via trade or free agency? They would be adding a piece that hadn't worked with their OLs.
All this OL familiarity is just wrong thinking. It applies more with receivers and their QBs, but not really even that much. If that's the case, then backup QBs shouldn't be able to come in and have huge games (re: Kelly Holcomb, Matt Flynn, et al). If you know how to play, you know how to play.
Refinements and adjustments can be made, but that's about all that any NFL player should need. If it takes major effort to correct the player's mind for the game or adjustments for physical limitations, then it's already a player that shouldn't be in the game.
It's not nearly as black and white as you are making it appear. Come on......you are smarter than that.
Of course, guys can fit in. Of course, it's about talent. However, to ignore the benefits of continuity on the OL is laughable. More than any other unit, the OL depends on cohesion. They must work together in unison. Their footwork has to be the same. Their timing the same. If one guy opens up to early while area blocking, the entire line is exposed. That hold true for when guys either gap block or pull. They must be cohesive. Again, no other unit needs cohesion more than the OL. That isn't some made up argument. It is a fact.
I am also not sure why so many people are ignoring the line calls that Mack has made???? The guy is very, very intelligent. Rarely do you see gaping holes in our line. We have guys get beat, but we aren't getting beat due to bad line calls.
Personally, I have a feeling that Mack won't be here next year. And I think our team will be worse because of it. In my mind, we will suffer way, way more if we lose Mack than if we lose Ward. The sad thing is that it's probably going to shake out that way. Mack will walk and we will overpay for Ward.
Double digit losses in every one of Mack's seasons.
Hell, double digit losses in all but one of JT's.
Manning going to the Super Bowl with a back up at LT.
For the love of God, please just find a QB.
I can't wait until we have a QB so guys like Mack can go back to being the interchangeable parts they are on every other team except the Browns.
I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
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What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000316567/article/2014-nfl-free-agents-position
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Centers
Joe Berger, Minnesota Vikings
Ryan Cook, Dallas Cowboys
Brian De La Puente, New Orleans Saints
Evan Dietrich-Smith, Green Bay Packers
Dylan Gandy, Detroit Lions
Roberto Garza, Chicago Bears
Jonathan Goodwin, San Francisco 49ers
Andre Gurode, Oakland Raiders
Joe Hawley, Atlanta Falcons
Dan Koppen, Denver Broncos
Ted Larsen, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Alex Mack, Cleveland Browns
Kevin Matthews, Tennessee Titans
Mike McGlynn, Indianapolis Colts
Brad Meester, Jacksonville Jaguars
Dominic Raiola, Detroit Lions
Chris Spencer, Tennessee Titans
Rob Turner, Tennessee Titans
Steve Vallos, Denver Broncos
Fernando Velasco, Pittsburgh Steelers
Cody Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers
J.D. Walton, Washington Redskins
Ryan Wendell, New England Patriots
Thanks for the list.. Are you saying that any of those guys would be better than Mack, or are you saying they'd be cheaper or both?
Honestly, any one of them that might be considered on Macks level or close are going to cost as much or close to Mack,,
If, from that bunch, you can improve the position and lower costs, I got no issue with it. But the laws of economics don't work that way.
So, narrow it down for me, tell me who is better than Mack and can be gotten for less than Mack!
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I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
I know you know we need a QB.
And you know I know even a good QB needs a good line.
My point is we don't need Alex Mack to be a good team.
i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
we don't know for sure what's going to happen yet. some just seem to get their panties in a wad no matter what the issue.
we may have all of the money in the world right now but it doesn't take long at all to be down to the wire if you're not careful signing all of those contracts.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
Well said, I don't care how they do it. Just win.
I think Mack and Ward are very valuable free agents that are both must sign players. Great teams must be strong up the middle. It would be a shame if these 2 yound still developing players leave after their first contract. Most players play their best football between their 4th and 8th year in the NFL. I would hate to lose these 2 and start over again at these positions up the middle on offense and defense.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
If anything Swish, I thought it was the opposite. Browns, since their return, were always battling cap with little to show on the field. Both Mangini and Holmgren made a huge effort to get cap under control. Holmgren took it a step further incorporating youth.
i'm not saying we need to be battling the cap, but isn't it odd that the times we were in cap trouble, or signing FA's, we had 2 of our best seasons since 99? even a playoff appearance.
bugs, i'm happy we are great in the cap area. we need to continue that, but that being said, it's pointless to be at the top of the NFL in cap space, but in the basement in everything else, ya know, like wins and titles.
signing players long term will benefit us. mack we aren't sure about, but we have a top 5 safety that wants to stay here. give him the contract, PAY DA MAN. we gave kruger and bryant long term contracts, with zero results in the w-l column, but the talent we have will show once we have good QB play.
but we have to KEEP the talent here to see that day.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
My only concern with overpaying a guy is the precedent it sets...regardless of how much cap space we have left.
That said...I'd like us to re-sign Mack and Ward...even tho I think Ward is overrated.
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i'm not saying we need to be battling the cap, but isn't it odd that the times we were in cap trouble, or signing FA's, we had 2 of our best seasons since 99? even a playoff appearance.
Don't forget the seasons following those two good. Browns dumped to get back in good grace with cap.
I am a big fan of control cap it allows for long term success. I am also in favor of getting a top player or two. Totally against FA RB and WR. My biggest concern is why did the prior team give way. Odds of success is not good too.
Mack has a good opportunity to get serious coin. In the new age because of 3-4 defense on the rise, center is becoming a position of need. As we have seen, center position in the draft has been lacking.
Ward, I have a hard time calling. I am not sure he can't be easily replaced based on the way Cleveland is building their defense. They are striving to assemble a top flight front 7. With that said, do they need to invest in a top strong safety? I am a bit old school too where safeties were not a main stay in most defenses.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
My only concern with overpaying a guy is the precedent it sets...regardless of how much cap space we have left.
That said...I'd like us to re-sign Mack and Ward...even tho I think Ward is overrated.
I don't think it matters unless you are talking similar positions. I mean, comparing a CB with a Center? The numbers won't match. Comparing two CB's, yeah, I can see that.
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I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
Nearly every OL group in the NFL playoffs had a lower grade as unit than the Browns and yet, they went to the playoffs.
Everyone seems to think that you need All-Pro players at every position to be successful. That just isn't the case.
LT - Thomas (perennial Pro Bowler, deserving or not)
LG - Greco (competent)
C - Mack (perennial Pro Bowler, deserving or not)
RG - Lauvao (incompetent)
RT - Schwartz (subpar)
You can let Mack and Lauvao walk and still get quality players there without breaking the bank. A quality LG might actually help Schwartz out.
I posted the list of free agent centers available. The Browns could easily sign one that's competent enough to do the job.
Who has said we need a Pro Bowl player at every position on the OL? Name one person.
I don't agree w/you in regards to Mack being so easily replaced. I also disagree w/you on the importance of a center. We also disagree on how important cohesion is for an OL. Continuity can aide in the cohesion.
How is a LG going to make Schwartz better?
I think we need an upgrade a guard, especially our RG.
I am also not as sold as many are w/Schwartz. It would be nice to upgrade there rather than plug in a reject at center after losing Mack.
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So, narrow it down for me, tell me who is better than Mack and can be gotten for less than Mack!
You don't have to improve the center position, only get value for it. How about I give you a few that could do the job, for cheaper and you wouldn't notice the drop off.
Brian de la Puente could be had for far less. He was working under a 1 year deal with New Orleans that notched him just over $2 million. For what it's worth, he got playoff experience along with it. And I think that's worth a lot.
Cody Wallace filled in for Pouncey in Putzburgh and did a decent job starting 4 games for them.
I would add that Dietrich-Smith wouldn't be bad.
Spencer wouldn't be bad either. He was the Tennessee backup at the C and both G positions for the Titans last season, starting 9 games.
McGlynn played in 15 games for the Colts last season, starting 14 of them.
There are more of them on the list too. Would I pay Mack those dollars? Hell no!
If we are going to seriously consider starting a rookie QB, then re-signing Mack should be a no-brainer. Not only does he help keep pressure out of the face of the QB, he is also excellent with making the line calls, which will help a young QB immensely.
I think that we need a Guard and a RT. I actually think that Greco might be able to slide to the right side if we sign a solid LG type in free agency.
Yeah, I agree w/everything you said in that last post.
I do think that our FO will try to keep Mack. I am just worried that he might want out no matter what we offer him. Heck, even before the season, he said he was not open to working out a new contract before or during the season.
He may have said that only because he wanted to concentrate on football, but it struck me as a bad sign when he said it.
He's been a really committed player though. (even played a week after having an appendectomy) He has said that he would "absolutely" give the Browns right of last refusal on any deal he could find. I see no reason to doubt his word. Plus, there have been other players who have been uncomfortable worrying about contract details during the season, I think that I prefer that to a guy like Peyton Hillis, who worried about his contract to the extent that his play suffered badly.
Hopefully the Browns have a solid read on Mack, and can franchise him if necessary. They could even use the transition tag, which would automatically give them right of first refusal.That would be an average of the top 10 salaries instead of top 5 ......and could be the way we go. IIRC, the NFL has outlawed the "poison pills" that some teams used to use in these cases, so that might not be a concern.
Should be interesting to see how it all works out.
anarchy, two of those teams have seasoned QB's. Luck was rocked the last two seasons.
If reports are true, Shanahan is the new OC. I assume zone blocking is scheme of choice. You feel confident having someone else besides Mack assisting a rookie QB?
I normally would agree with your argument, but if I'm starting a rookie QB, assuming, I want the most talent on the OL I can get. After all I want to save the wear and tear on my QB.
With Browns current OL, you do realize we have not had a starting QB survive a season. You really think downsizing is wise?
I hope you are right. I definitely don't want to lose the guy.
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Who has said we need a Pro Bowl player at every position on the OL? Name one person.
I don't agree w/you in regards to Mack being so easily replaced. I also disagree w/you on the importance of a center. We also disagree on how important cohesion is for an OL. Continuity can aide in the cohesion.
How is a LG going to make Schwartz better?
I think we need an upgrade a guard, especially our RG.
I am also not as sold as many are w/Schwartz. It would be nice to upgrade there rather than plug in a reject at center after losing Mack.
I said that 'everyone seems to think', not 'everyone thinks', and I did so for a reason.
Okay, you don't want to let Mack walk (although he can if he wants) and money doesn't seem (there's that word again) to be a factor. That is, until it is a factor when you realize that you can't re-sign Haden next year (and many think he's a god at CB). What happens then? Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor and Ismaail'y Kitchen will all be FAs next year. That's 3 of your DTs in one season. Add Jabaal Sheard & Buster Skrine (so, both starting CBs will be FAs). Toss in Jordan Cameron (and Hoyer if you want) on the offensive side of the ball. You'll also have two RBs added to the ranks of Browns FAs next year with Ogbonnaya and Dion Lewis.
Remember, you're going to want to sign some of these guys. I suspect that Haden, Cameron, Taylor, Rubin, Sheard and Skrine will all be targets. You won't be able to keep them all but you could probably keep one more of them if you don't overpay for players this year.
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I said that 'everyone seems to think', not 'everyone thinks',
Again, I would much rather keep Mack than Ward.
Reubin will probably not be retained. Big Phil better improve. I wonder if DQ will be back. Weeden will probably be dumped. Campbell might go, as well. We may have seen the last of Little. The rest shouldn't be a problem.
Here is what I am saying..............I think Mack is way more valuable than some of you guys do. You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
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anarchy, two of those teams have seasoned QB's. Luck was rocked the last two seasons.
Luck is going to take his licks regardless because of his play style. He's very much like Favre and he did have the youngest starting OL in the league. I don't think there was an OL with 3 years experience among the whole lot of them.
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If reports are true, Shanahan is the new OC. I assume zone blocking is scheme of choice. You feel confident having someone else besides Mack assisting a rookie QB?
Yes I do.
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I normally would agree with your argument, but if I'm starting a rookie QB, assuming, I want the most talent on the OL I can get. After all I want to save the wear and tear on my QB.
How do you know who the QB is going to be? And how are you going to decide before knowing what rookie QB is going to be on the roster? I don't think that it's going to be nearly the problem that folks seem to think that it'll be.
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With Browns current OL, you do realize we have not had a starting QB survive a season. You really think downsizing is wise?
Downsizing? I wanted the Browns to sign Levitre and Warmack. They both ended up in Tennessee. We could have probably gotten them both. I wanted to beef up the G positions but it seems that it wasn't a priority but I actually like the Gilkey kid better than Lauvao.
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Here is what I am saying..............I think Mack is way more valuable than some of you guys do. You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
I understand the reasons you put forth. I just don't weigh Mack's abilities as favorably as you do. When you're trying to put a team together, you have to be cognizant of the 'value' portion of the player because it does all count. Too many people think that these contracts are paid with Monopoly money. GMs have to treat these dollar amounts as if they actually were coming out of their own pockets.
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Downsizing? I wanted the Browns to sign Levitre and Warmack. They both ended up in Tennessee. We could have probably gotten them both. I wanted to beef up the G positions but it seems that it wasn't a priority but I actually like the Gilkey kid better than Lauvao.
Downsizing? Yes. Replace a pro bowler with someone who is not.
I'm a firm believer you need two tackles and a center to make an effective line evenly distribute talent. As stated above, with the influx of 3-4, centers have become more important. With 2 out 3 AFCN components playing 3-4, you need talent at center as well as LT.
I do agree Gilkey gives Lauvao a run at RG. I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving Schwartz a run at RT.
We replaced the injured LeCharles Bentley with Hank Fraley and had one of the best Olines in the league...(After adding Joe T and Steinbach obviously... but I was focusing on the center position)
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You "seem" to ignore my reasons as to why he is valuable and keep trotting out that we can replace him w/any of the stiffs that are out there and we won't miss a beat.
5-11
5-11
4-12
5-11
4-12
Since Mack was drafted in 2009, these are the Cleveland Browns record each year.
What beat are you hoping to avoid missing?
The beat that allows our QBs a ton of time to throw the football. Which beat did you think I was referring to?
Then why wouldn't you want to keep Schwartz? He's part of the same line.
I don't know. I wouldn't mind signing Mack, but I don't care either way. I'm not a big fan of creating holes, but I don't think we should act like he has been a difference maker either.
Someone mentioned Fraley replacing Bentley and us having a great OL still. Funny that it coincided with the best year a Browns QB had since the return. So which is it? The center makes the team better or the QB makes everyone better.
I know he's a good player. I just don't think we should fret if he leaves. I'll be happy if we resign him. I'll be indifferent if we don't.
I don't think that Schwartz is that good. We gave him a lot of help this year. We put a TE over there a lot and even chipped his guy w/our RBs.
I am not asking you to agree w/me about Mack, but it is my opinion that he is a very fine center. He is not easily replaceable. I think we should concentrate on upgrading our RG and perhaps our RT rather than replacing one of the best centers in the league.
And Rish...........don't act like I am stupid. Of course, the QB is more important. I am not suggesting that in the slightest and if you look on the QB threads, you will see that I think it is imperative to get either Teddy or Manziel. I am in favor of moving up to number two to get it done.
With that said, I don't want our QB to be getting killed like Luck is in Indy. We need to keep our OL at it's current level and maybe even improve it somewhat. We can do that by upgrading the RG position and perhaps the RT position. Losing Mack will not help us in the slightest and it could cause major problems for our QB.
Again, it's just my opinion and I am not asking you to agree. I just think Mack is way more valuable than a guy like Ward........and it ain't even close in my book.
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We replaced the injured LeCharles Bentley with Hank Fraley and had one of the best Olines in the league...(After adding Joe T and Steinbach obviously... but I was focusing on the center position)
Dough Boy wasn't a mediocre center simply at the end of his career. Fraley was a top center in league in his early years. Having Tucker on the right side helped too.
Browns did have three top OL. I prefer a center over a guard as one of the three. To me, I think guards are the easier position to fill. I don't agree with Anarchy you can bring anyone at center. A center just doesn't hand the ball back anymore. They do toss it back. A center is also the OL play caller. He also needs to execute with a man in front. I don't feel it is as easy a position as it once was.
Anarchy, I'm not saying you are wrong. You make a valued argument. I simply don't agree. I am a firm believer of balance. Having two tackles and center creates balance. I also believe you can do much more with a athletic pulling guards than you can do with the other positions.
I don't think you are dumb. I know you know the significance of the QB position.
We just have a difference of opinion on Mack.
I could really care less if they replaced every single position on the field if they can find us a QB.
Mike Adams is the starting free safety for the Super Bowl favorite Denver Broncos. Wrap your head around that one.
was that a shot at mike adams or a shot at our team?
cause i think a ton of people on this board has said, mike adams is no bum.
JMO..
I grade in 3 tiers..
Above NFL avg
NFL avg
Below NFL avg
IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
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IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
By indicating these guys are average to a little above, you are basically stating that roughly 80% of the centers or strong safeties in the league can equal the production of Mack and Ward. If this is he case, you have a high probability replacing either one at a cheaper price. Is this what you want to say?
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IMO.. Mack and Ward are both at minimum NFL avg to more likely a bit above NFL avg. I fail to see the advantage in letting either walk away and create a hole at that position that has at least someone grading at NFL avg.
By indicating these guys are average to a little above, you are basically stating that roughly 80% of the centers or strong safeties in the league can equal the production of Mack and Ward. If this is he case, you have a high probability replacing either one at a cheaper price. Is this what you want to say?
Not even remotely close to what I am saying.. I'm saying these two perform at a high enough level that I want to retain both of them.
The RG is the position I want to address.. IMO our RG play is awful and may be a part of / related to our performance at RT.
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Downsizing? Yes. Replace a pro bowler with someone who is not.
Or getting someone that knows how to play the position without what I see as worthless accolades. Mack was on a 4-12 team. I don't know what to say other than that.
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I'm a firm believer you need two tackles and a center to make an effective line evenly distribute talent. As stated above, with the influx of 3-4, centers have become more important. With 2 out 3 AFCN components playing 3-4, you need talent at center as well as LT.
Okay. I'm a firm believer that you run the ball between the tackles and you need good guard play to run the ball effectively.
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I do agree Gilkey gives Lauvao a run at RG. I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving Schwartz a run at RT.
Gilkey is already better than Lauvao is and Lauvao won't even be on the roster next year. He may float around the league but he'll never start in the NFL again unless there is an injury to the OG ahead of him on the depth chart.
I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving him some competition at RT. I just think that the Browns will either draft a RT or will sign one in FA. Faulk may or may not get his shot, but he could hardly be worse than Schwartz. Oneil Cousins could give Mitchell Schwartz stiff competition at the spot. Any drunken & fat slob off the streets of Cleveland might give him a run for his money.
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I know he's a good player. I just don't think we should fret if he leaves. I'll be happy if we re-sign him. I'll be indifferent if we don't.
This is my viewpoint except that I would add a qualifier. I would be happy if we re-signed Mack at a reasonable cost. I don't want to harm the team's chances to improve elsewhere if they re-sign him. If Mack agrees to a reasonable offer, then re-sign him. If he wants more than $4 million or so per year, let him walk.
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Or getting someone that knows how to play the position without what I see as worthless accolades. Mack was on a 4-12 team. I don't know what to say other than that.
Per this definition, Joe T is expendable too.
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Okay. I'm a firm believer that you run the ball between the tackles and you need good guard play to run the ball effectively.
You don't need good quality guards to run. Browns, with Hillis, ran the ball with Pink and Lauvao.
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Gilkey is already better than Lauvao is and Lauvao won't even be on the roster next year. He may float around the league but he'll never start in the NFL again unless there is an injury to the OG ahead of him on the depth chart.
I wouldn't rule out Faulk giving him some competition at RT. I just think that the Browns will either draft a RT or will sign one in FA. Faulk may or may not get his shot, but he could hardly be worse than Schwartz. Oneil Cousins could give Mitchell Schwartz stiff competition at the spot. Any drunken & fat slob off the streets of Cleveland might give him a run for his money.
If you think Cousins is better than any OL on the Browns or NFL, all I can say is set your beer down you have reached your limit!
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Per this definition, Joe T is expendable too.
Yep, but for a different reason. His contract isn't expiring.
If a team came to the Browns offering an RG3 deal for Joe Thomas, the Browns should take it.
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You don't need good quality guards to run. Browns, with Hillis, ran the ball with Pink and Lauvao.
That's true, and with a turnstile at RT too. But Pinkston's and Lauvao's problems aren't in run blocking but pass blocking.
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If you think Cousins is better than any OL on the Browns or NFL, all I can say is set your beer down you have reached your limit!
Schwartz is really that bad. He wasn't an upgrade at the position of RT and a 2nd rounder was burned on him.
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You don't have to improve the center position, only get value for it.
I'm sure who ever our QB is next season will see it that way
Brian de la Puente has been with 5 different teams (six if you count the 49ers twice) he was undrafted and hasn't been able to stick anywhere. And you want him to replace Mack? I don't think so.
Cody Wallace has been with 6 teams (seven if you count Detroit twice) and can't stick? And you want to replace Mack with him? I don't think so.
Evan Dietrich-Smith has been with 2 teams (three if you cound the packers twice) and can't stick. I don't think so.
I'll stop there as a pattern is developing. You appear to be more interested in paying less, than you are about who the best we can get is.
Look, if we loose Mack in FA, then any one of those guys could be decent to be brought in.
But if the lease on your Maybach is up and you have the money to buy it out, you don't go get a Volkswagen and delude yourself into thinking you got the better end of that deal..
While I'm in agreement with you that not every position along the Oline needs to be all pro or anything, you do need competent people in those roles. If you got one of the best and you have the pockets to pay, you pay. End of discussion.
Schwartz is not a plodder...he has good feet. What you have to remember is because of Joe T a lot of teams concentrated on attacking the other side with over loads and/or putting the best edge rusher there. But his feet or not of the Pashos variety. I really would love to get his brother in FA and make them a tandem...but I'm not so sure if Geoff??? has Zone blocking scheme skills - I know he is tough but not sure on his lateral movement. Pinkston and Greco are not the best at it either.
I would like to draft that kid from Alabama (OT but he is quick and has good feet) move him in between Joe T and Mack. Oh and if we are doing this Zone Blocking Scheme...signing Mack is an IMPERATIVE he is perfect for it! Lewis n Baker fit in nicely too. The Texans didn't utilize a FB but went with Casey in their best years as an H-Back. Btw don't forget that 290 lb TE we had on our roster all year who actually got some reps at the end of the season.
Just thinking out loud.
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Schwartz is really that bad. He wasn't an upgrade at the position of RT and a 2nd rounder was burned on him.
Just a matter of opinion but I disagree. Although I do not find him to be at the place I would have liked him to be at this point, I don't think he is "really bad".
First, he was definitely an upgrade when he was drafted. Remember Tony Pashos?? Ugh, that guy was slow couldn't pass protect for the life of him and was injured a good portion he was here.
I guess at this point, I would label as average as a starter....hopefully with the potential to improve. What's concerning to me is a couple of things...
In both years, he has started off poorly and improved as the season went on. Originally, I chalked up his slow start during his rookie season because of just that..he was a rookie. As he closed out the season, he had played really, really well earning PFF accolades if you like that sort of thing:
Tackles: Matt Kalil, MIN (LT) (+15.9) and Mitchell Schwartz, CLV (RT) (+16.1)
It’s uncanny how similar the numbers look for Kalil and Schwartz. Both made the team on the strength of top-notch pass blocking, as Kalil graded at +15.6 and Schwartz at +15.1, while both have room to improve as run blockers (Kalil -2.4, Schwartz -2.9). They finished among the Top 22 tackles in the league, making for an easy selection as the bookend tackles on the All-Rookie Team. 2012 PFF All-Rookie Team
But then his second season, against top DEs, he stuggled in pass protection early on. He did improve but not at the pace he did his rookie year IMO. However I still think he is more than adequate but hope he continues to improve. But if he doesn't improve, team will continue to exploit him and but their best pass rushers on him weekly.
Could we technically upgrade on him? Sure we can but I'd rather upgrade the guards first, re-sign Mack, Ward, and others, and perhaps address other positions via FA. So in short, RT would be further down the list, at least for me.
I think are some questions to be raised about Schwartz's play last year:
- Did Turner's offense weigh heavily on Tackles to pass pro longer?
- Did Weeden simply hold the ball too long?
- Did Schwartz only improve with blocking help?
- Was Schwartz gradual improvement in the second half all on him?
- Will a new offensive scheme suit him better?
It's probably a combo of many of those things, I just don't give up on him yet. I wait a year and address other positions in the offseason.
Do you remember the scouting report I did on him the year he came out? That was the year I wanted us to trade down and grab a bevy of players in a strong draft. Instead, we gave up picks for TRich, reached for Weeden, and drafted Schwartz too early.
I gave Schwartz a 4th grade and wanted us to take him in that round. A few points that I remember writing about him.
Positives:
---Excellent size
---Versatile, played both LT and RT and could play inside
---Good bloodlines
---Can finish blocks
---Good in a short area
---Experienced
---Reliable
---Intelligent
Negatives:
--Plays w/poor balance----chest is too far past his thighs
--Reacts poorly to blitzes in general and delayed blitzes in particular
--Back injury that would need to be checked-out
--Struggles in wide-open spaces, such as when the rusher loops around in a stunt or on a blitz
--Doesn't shift his weight well
I haven't seen much to change my mind about any of that, other than he has shown no signs of the back injury being an issue.
Again, I would have never drafted him that high. I'm not sure if we will try to upgrade him or not. I would say that it is a distinct possibility.
I am not as high on his brother as most of the people around here. Here are some free agents I like:
Jared Veldheer---RT from Oakland. He is coming off an injury but is a fine player. I believe he is only 26.
Jon Asamoah, G from KC. Another guy who was limited by injury, but is a very good player and excels at run blocking.
Brandon Alberts---T from KC. This is the guy they didn't know what to do with after drafting Eric Fisher. He is a very good tackle and once again played well this year.
Zane Beadles, G from Denver. Very good run blocker. Manning was hardly sacked this year despite all those passing attempts.
One or two of these guys could really give our line a boost, especially if we keep Mack.
I know you don't care what I think, but that is a really good post. Nice job.
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I gave Schwartz a 4th grade and wanted us to take him in that round. A few points that I remember writing about him.
So, had we taken him in the 4th round, would you have been ok with him? Why? value maybe?
I don't get this value thing.. Sounds like a made up word by draftniks. You know, the ones that talk about it but have either never done it or can't do it.
It's funny, I've never heard a GM of a team talk about value. I suppose there could be a valid reason for that. Not sure what it would be, but maybe there is one.
But I guess that's just me.. the guy you want to ignore. so what's it matter what I say.
Nice football post.
Do you get some perverse pleasure from hijacking threads?
I don't know about you Vers, but his back injury was a big concern to me when we drafted him. I don't like big guys like that having problems like that. It's almost like having bad foot problems. I'm glad he hasn't had problems with it.
FYI Jon Asamoah got benched for Mitchell Schwartz brother Geoff.
Yeah, back injuries are a big concern. Sometimes I wonder if that his why his bending at the knees seem so stiff which leads to him getting off balance, but then I think that we would hear something about his back if it was really bothering him.
I thought Asamoah missed time due to injury rather than being benched?
I'm betting things come together for him this year.
Some different coaching, different scheme and another year under his belt.
I read recently that Turner's offense called for deeper QB drops, which would necesarily require holding blocks longer, and also leave both OT on an island. Joe Thomas is pretty good with that but I think Schwartz struggled a bit. The problem was made worse by inept RG play and the absence of a true FB or RB who blocks well. I'm hoping he'll rebound in an offense that might not demand as much of its OT's.
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I gave Schwartz a 4th grade and wanted us to take him in that round.
Vers we talked extensively about Schwartz as I pushed him as a prospect on the board. 2 things of relatively new but perhaps repeated significance.
We talked about possibly bringing in a RT but you weren't convinced Schwartz could make it at RG because of his lack of power. Does, in your mind, a zone blocking scheme change that? You convinced me before but with the scheme coming in I think it might be an actual positive for him. He fits the mold as a zone OG better than zone RT IMO. Thoughts?
The second issue is clearly there was a difference in his pass pro between his rookie year and year 2. How much of that is because of a change in scheme? Especially because that scheme is known to be particularly hard on OT's given the deeper drops and generally the QB holds the ball to allow the deeper routes to develop. If we do switch to a zone/WCO I think whether at RT or OG we could see a turn around. FYI I am not asking any of this because he was my guy pre-draft. Legit concern.
BTW if Oakland let Veldheer go can you imagine our OL? Thomas, Schwartz, Mack, Rook(Gabe?), Veldheer. Wow that would be insane. Very contingent but insane. I really like Albert as well since he was at UV but he seems to have become a .. Maybe just because of what KC pulled on him. He'd be the ultimate zone RT though.
Yeah, Turner's offense does require deeper drops by the QB and it puts a lot of stress on the OL. Just look at the sack numbers for San Diego w/and w/out Norv.
We can probably roll w/Schwartz at RT. We certainly need to upgrade the RG and there is no way that Lava will be effective in Shanny's scheme. I do think we need to keep Mack, for sure. There is a good article over on the Shanny thread. Kwhip posted it. You should check it out. It's pretty accurate.
Yeah, weren't you the guy who asked me to write a profile on Schwartz? We did have some good conversations on him and other RT prospects.
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We talked about possibly bringing in a RT but you weren't convinced Schwartz could make it at RG because of his lack of power. Does, in your mind, a zone blocking scheme change that? You convinced me before but with the scheme coming in I think it might be an actual positive for him. He fits the mold as a zone OG better than zone RT IMO. Thoughts?
Hmmmmm..........good question. I am not sure about that. I agree that he may be better suited to the zone blocking scheme, but I am not sure about moving inside. His height is an advantage at RT, but it might be an issue at guard. I need to think about it. I am not dodging your question, I simply don't want to make a stupid argument. I need time to think.
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The second issue is clearly there was a difference in his pass pro between his rookie year and year 2. How much of that is because of a change in scheme? Especially because that scheme is known to be particularly hard on OT's given the deeper drops and generally the QB holds the ball to allow the deeper routes to develop. If we do switch to a zone/WCO I think whether at RT or OG we could see a turn around. FYI I am not asking any of this because he was my guy pre-draft. Legit concern.
Another good comment/question. Yeah, I agree w/you. You guys are making me reevaluate my opinion on Schwartz. There have been quite a few good posts in that latter part of this thread. The scheme Norv ran almost certainly adversely effected Schwartz and probably all of the linemen. We may be able to roll w/Schwartzie again. Those wide-looping rushes will not be as effective in our new scheme. He still needs to improve his balance and ability to handle blitzes, though.
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BTW if Oakland let Veldheer go can you imagine our OL? Thomas, Schwartz, Mack, Rook(Gabe?), Veldheer. Wow that would be insane. Very contingent but insane. I really like Albert as well since he was at UV but he seems to have become a .. Maybe just because of what KC pulled on him. He'd be the ultimate zone RT though.
Oakland probably won't let him walk, but hey......we can dream, right? If we do move Schwartz inside, he will have to play at RG. His feet aren't quite good enough to be able to trap and pull as much as this system requires. KC did jerk Albert around. He's a very good player and I would take him any day of the week.
Good post, my man. I enjoyed the conversation.
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Nice football post.
Do you get some perverse pleasure from hijacking threads?
Pot, meet Kettle. and I did ask a football question but you choose to ignore it. To what end, I honestly don't know.
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Yeah, weren't you the guy who asked me to write a profile on Schwartz? We did have some good conversations on him and other RT prospects.
Yeah that was me. I wanted him in the 3rd while you wanted him in the 4th.
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Hmmmmm..........good question. I am not sure about that. I agree that he may be better suited to the zone blocking scheme, but I am not sure about moving inside. His height is an advantage at RT, but it might be an issue at guard. I need to think about it. I am not dodging your question, I simply don't want to make a stupid argument. I need time to think.
If I recall he's 6'4". Plenty of OGs are 6'4/6'5 even. Unless zone requires less length? I am fairly inexperienced with the zone concept. I've never had to understand it so I have research to do. I could understand it at OG though. DTs seem to be evolving to shorter and quicker guys like Atkins. With Schwartz balance and knee bend maybe it would be best to keep him at RT.
The prospects for RT this year is really what makes me ask. The idea of a Kouandjio or Richardson at RT until Joe retires is enticing. I would love to pull a Jordan Gross and have our future LT developed at RT. That to me offers more value to a team than just taking a OG in the 1st 2 rounds. That is contingent on Schwartz being able to play OG. Strengthening RT, OG and future LT with one pick. Joes a FA in 2019 which just happens to be when a RT taken at 26 would need resigned.
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Another good comment/question. Yeah, I agree w/you. You guys are making me reevaluate my opinion on Schwartz. There have been quite a few good posts in that latter part of this thread. The scheme Norv ran almost certainly adversely effected Schwartz and probably all of the linemen. We may be able to roll w/Schwartzie again. Those wide-looping rushes will not be as effective in our new scheme. He still needs to improve his balance and ability to handle blitzes, though.
I mean I still completely agree with your initial report before he was drafted so I don't think you need to necessarily reevaluate. I just think it's highly likely that the scheme combined with 14 weeks of QBs who hold the ball far too long equated to the entire OL having a poor year. Even Joe had by far his worst year. BTW anyone else notice Joe getting destroyed at the pro bowl? Just a side note. I know it's the probowl but still. Just saying. Is it realistic to think maybe he's seen his ceiling in the rear view? I am far from anti Joe just being observant.
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Oakland probably won't let him walk, but hey......we can dream, right? If we do move Schwartz inside, he will have to play at RG. His feet aren't quite good enough to be able to trap and pull as much as this system requires. KC did jerk Albert around. He's a very good player and I would take him any day of the week.
Good post, my man. I enjoyed the conversation.
I was a big proponent of Veldheer when he came out. I pushed him as RT on the other board HARD. I had a friend who went to Hillsdale with him who said he would not stop until he was the best. Just a physical freak of a man.
I do also remember you eating some crow and stating that he actual was pretty good - that was the last 5 games or so of his rookie season where he improved...Last year he did take a step back. Why? I don't know.
Possibly year two and 2nd New offense to learn?
Possibly having two OL coaches one brought here to teach the Zone blocking scheme?
Possibly having about 3 RGs due to injury...he seemed to get a little better when Lava got healthy?
But yes he looked like he took a step back.
Is he a move in to OG kind of guy and become a Pro Bowler??? I don't know but he's probably the best RT we have had whose name is not Tucker.
Again you are probably correct in what you saw...usually I see it too. I don't think its that Grave its not that big deal that Heckert took him in the 2nd round. I thought for sure he was going to take Reiff...at 22 but supposedly that is when Holmgren came crashing into the War room and insisted we take Weeden (Heckert had Weeden pegged for our 2nd round pick) well so the story goes. lol 
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The idea of a Kouandjio or Richardson at RT until Joe retires is enticing...
Predator: I trust you are not forgetting that the NFL coaching staff at the 2012 Senior Bowl moved Schwartz from RT to LT. Post-game reports were highly complimentary of his performance. I am not implying that Schwartz is the heir-apparent to JT, but it something to keep in mind...
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I'm sure who ever our QB is next season will see it that way
I'm sure that Mack will go where the highest price is paid. He may live up to his promise of giving the Browns the right of last refusal (made prior to Chudzinski's firing) but the Browns may not pay. If he is allowed to leave, you have to go to a back-up plan.
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Brian de la Puente has been with 5 different teams (six if you count the 49ers twice) he was undrafted and hasn't been able to stick anywhere. And you want him to replace Mack? I don't think so.
So, you say that he keeps finding work although he isn't any good?
Also, he's been with the Saints since 2011 and has been their starter since that season. Funny how Drew Brees has passed for more than 5000 yards in each of those seasons.
He was a RFA last year and the Saints saw highly enough of him to tender him.
As for his undrafted status, maybe Peyton Manning would tell you about some other undrafted center that held down the spot for him for nearly a dozen years. His name was Jeff Saturday. I'm not saying that de la Puente is Jeff Saturday, just ridiculing your view that and 'undrafted center' isn't worth it.
By all means, lets go 4-12 or 5-11 with our first round draft choice and Pro Bowl center Alex Mack.
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Cody Wallace has been with 6 teams (seven if you count Detroit twice) and can't stick? And you want to replace Mack with him? I don't think so.
Again, he keeps finding work. He must suck badly. I mentioned him because he's versatile and can play any interior position.
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Evan Dietrich-Smith has been with 2 teams (three if you cound the packers twice) and can't stick. I don't think so.
Keeps finding work.
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I'll stop there as a pattern is developing. You appear to be more interested in paying less, than you are about who the best we can get is.
I am concerned about overpaying for a position where a starting caliber center can be found easily enough.
I wouldn't mind bringing back Mack, but I don't think we should overpay for a position. And, you make it sound like Mack can be enslaved. If you're going to throw piles of money at a guy's feet, you could get him to stay. Or, you could sign someone more cheaply that can do an adequate job and save the money.
You don't spend money like a drunken sailor and expect good things to happen. Things that happen to drunken sailors happens when you spend like one.
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Look, if we loose Mack in FA, then any one of those guys could be decent to be brought in.
If we lose Mack to free agency, then we should bring in one of them and save a lot of money. I wouldn't tag Mack (like many are saying they'd do) or offer him an outrageous contract either. I don't see Banner doing that for any center, including Mack.
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But if the lease on your Maybach is up and you have the money to buy it out, you don't go get a Volkswagen and delude yourself into thinking you got the better end of that deal.
I'm not even sure that I understand this analogy.
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While I'm in agreement with you that not every position along the Oline needs to be all pro or anything, you do need competent people in those roles. If you got one of the best and you have the pockets to pay, you pay. End of discussion.
How about YOU pay his salary? Hey, it's only a few million, right? Maybe you do if that's what you want. As for me, I shop for the best value. I don't purchase groceries at an overpriced supermarket. I use coupons. I stock up when a good deal comes out in the Sunday newspaper inserts.
However, feel free to shop without coupons at the grocery store but stop at the gas station to save a nickel on a gallon of gas.
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So, you say that he keeps finding work although he isn't any good?
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Again, he keeps finding work. He must suck badly.
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Keeps finding work.
So does Curtis Painter.
Is that evidence that he is good?
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Just a matter of opinion but I disagree.
Okay. We'll have to agree to disagree then. That's fine. It is one observation against another.
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Remember Tony Pashos??
Yes. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think Pashos was any good either, but my view that Schwartz hasn't been an upgrade is unchanged.
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...earning PFF accolades if you like that sort of thing
I don't and I don't accept them as part of the argument in Schwartz' defense.
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Will a new offensive scheme suit him better?
Perhaps. I'll leave that up to the new coaches. As for me, I would look to deal him if I were Banner. I would actually ask for input from the coaches, but that wouldn't necessarily sway my view that he he should be traded if possible. I simply don't think we'll find many teams inquiring about his availability on the trade block.
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I just don't give up on him yet. I wait a year and address other positions in the offseason.
That's an approach that can be taken. Maybe a new offense will do him a world of good. I'm not holding my breath though. We have to look at the season with him fulfilling a roster spot. He's not a free agent and he'll probably be given the chance to earn his job. Maybe they'll move him inside and try him there. I just don't know. That is also a possibility. And they're legit ones.
I just don't think the guy is cut out to be a tackle.
so you're reasoning is that mack is the reason we have sucked so much.
lets get rid of all our pro-bowlers if thats the case.
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so you're reasoning is that mack is the reason we have sucked so much.
lets get rid of all our pro-bowlers if thats the case.
Seriously? Come on anarchy is saying no such thing.
I disagree with his logic, but all he is saying Browns can equal production without spending a lot of money on Mack.
Anarchy is putting up a good argument give him his do.
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It's funny, I've never heard a GM of a team talk about value.
When asked about why they traded away the 4th and 5th round picks in last year's draft, Banner said that they didn't see the value there so they traded away those picks for additional picks this year, where he saw more value. I tried to find the audio or video but couldn't. I do remember hearing it though.
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I suppose there could be a valid reason for that. Not sure what it would be, but maybe there is one.
And Banner gave one.
imo, he's not.
mack is a pro bowl player. some places has him as the #1 center in the NFL.
Anarch's argument is that we can get similar production for less cost?
where? who? are they pro bowl, or more importantly, all-pro players?
if not, thats A DOWNGRADE. we aren't talking about swapping out Gibspon for Adams, or Robertson for another ILB thats cheaper.
he's talking about swapping an All-pro Center for a..in a sense, nobody, and go into the season with the thought process of "eh, we gonna be ok in that position".
i'm not down with that.
Swish, you may not agree, but he is making an intelligent argument for his point of view. You can't fault his agruments. It's a debate correct? It is ok to have multi-points of views no matter how wrong anarchy is!!!!! I don't mean to beat you up, but anarchy is lone wolf and making a sensible case. I hate to see go to waste.
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so you're reasoning is that mack is the reason we have sucked so much.
lets get rid of all our pro-bowlers if thats the case.
Now don't be stupid. We've sucked because previous regimes have made bad choices. In fact, this one made a bad one in hiring Chudzinski last year.
I don't know if they were really intrigued by him or if he was just the fallback guy and the best was hoped for when they signed him. I simply don't know.
What I'm very certain about is that his firing was a Jimmy Haslam move. It wasn't a Joe Banner move.
I already like Pettine more than Chudzinski.
everybody has an opinion, hell, i'm wrong all the time.
my thing is, i don't like equating a non-skill position player to our W-L record.
thats the only part i've mad a big deal out of, bugs.
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so you're reasoning is that mack is the reason we have sucked so much.
lets get rid of all our pro-bowlers if thats the case.
Now don't be stupid. We've sucked because previous regimes have made bad choices. In fact, this one made a bad one in hiring Chudzinski last year.
I don't know if they were really intrigued by him or if he was just the fallback guy and the best was hoped for when they signed him. I simply don't know.
What I'm very certain about is that his firing was a Jimmy Haslam move. It wasn't a Joe Banner move.
I already like Pettine more than Chudzinski.
i liked the pettine hire.
but remember this: the FO straight up SOLD the part about having 6 pro bowlers here on this team for an HC to come to.
if i'm Pettine, i EXPECT to have 6 pro bowlers on this roster come training camp.
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Mack is a pro bowl player. Some places has him as the #1 center in the NFL.
What's your assessment? Is your assessment the same as what some website or another has written? I'm curious to know what Swish's views are. I don't want to know what so-and-so website had to say about it. I don't want to know what some talking head on the TV or radio has to say. I want to hear Swish's unfiltered and original thoughts. I don't wan them piped though a website, TV or radio program or some newspaper article.
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Anarchy's argument is that we can get similar production for less cost?
where? who? are they pro bowl, or more importantly, all-pro players?
And so, my view that some want pro bowlers or all-pro players at every position holds true. This ain't the Madden video game. I know that some seem to get the two realms (reality and make-believe) totally confused, but we need to be real about it.
If you say "pay the man" (how'd that work for us when Cribbs was given his money?), I'll tell you to put up or shut up if the money doesn't come directly out of your hand to the player's hand. It's awfully easy (and convenient) to say 'pay the man' when you aren't the one paying.
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if not, thats A DOWNGRADE. we aren't talking about swapping out Gibspon for Adams, or Robertson for another ILB thats cheaper.
No we're not. But since you're bringing up ILBs, D'Qwell Jackson is overpaid. That's just to send you off on another diatribe about how stupid and silly I am.
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he's talking about swapping an All-pro Center for a..in a sense, nobody, and go into the season with the thought process of "eh, we gonna be ok in that position".
i'm not down with that.
Nobody? Brian de le Puente has been the starting center for the Saints for the past 3 seasons. How many Pro Bowls does he have? Zero. How many times have his team gone to the playoffs? Twice. Granted, the team didn't make the playoffs after Sean Payton was forced to sit for a season. Still, in each of those years, Drew Brees passed for more than 5000 (actually, more than 5100) yards each year.
But, let's overpay Mack so that we can't help the team get better by signing an improvement at another position.
You sir, are a fool.
Maybe Chud wouldn't have worked out.. don't know and we never will, but I'd really like to see what would have happened if he had Hoyer all season...
Tell you what, Pettine is in for a helluva bad day if he doesn't find consistent QB play and He better find a running game as well.
Or he's destined for the same as Chud.. One and Done. (no, they wouldn't be that stupid to repeat that)
my assessment of mack? imo, he's the best center out there right now. never misses a game, is great in pass blocking, good at run blocking. hell, i don't remember him getting beat. i'm sure it has happened, but thats how rare it is.
nobody called it a madden video game. but these guys earn these honors(pro bowl, all-pro) for a reason. first off, you keep forgetting, the reason these guys and coaches get so much money is because FAN'S pay for it. jersey sales, tickets, hotdogs, whatever, WE pay for it. you damn right its our money. see if our team doesn't move if we stop showing up to the games because of crap seasons every year...let that sink in.
i don't think DQ is overpaid. that guy is a monster, and would get more credit if we had more consistent offense and won more games. but you think it's easy to replace and replicate the few recognized players on our team. imo, i disagree, and it gets to me for some reason that we, a losing franchise, think we are the patriots and steelers and get rid of good players and not miss a beat.
here's my problem with your opinion. you're equating Puente as the reason why Bree's has passed for all those yards. you need to make it clear to this board that isn't the case. because thats false beyond reason. the ENTIRE OL is the reason Bree's has all that time.
you wanna use stats to based your argument, but how come you never mention how last year with mack at center, we had a top 5 ranked pass blocking line in the NFL? why does THAT always seem to miss being typed in your post?
it's not overpaying if that's what the guy deserves. imo, we overpaid for Kruger, and Byrant...and where did that leave us? but i can specifically remember you saying you loved those pick ups.
but all of a sudden, you don't wanna pay mack whats he's worth? maybe you're the fool.
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i liked the pettine hire.
but remember this: the FO straight up SOLD the part about having 6 pro bowlers here on this team for an HC to come to.
if i'm Pettine, i EXPECT to have 6 pro bowlers on this roster come training camp.
I don't think that Pettine expects anything. He took the job knowing that Mack and Ward are pending free agents.
He'll have Thomas, Cameron, Haden and Gordon on the team next season as they're all still under contract.
I also don't think that Pettine expects to make the playoffs next year but that he knows that there is a good nucleus for a team to build upon. I'm sure that he also likes the fact that the team has so many selections in the upcoming draft. He probably expects to have some input on the players that he thinks that they need improvements at, just by judging the tape.
If Pettine hasn't already been in the facility watching every game from last year (keying on the play of every position), I would be shocked. He's probably watched every game a dozen times with evaluations about the play of each player for those games.
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Maybe Chud wouldn't have worked out.. don't know and we never will, but I'd really like to see what would have happened if he had Hoyer all season...
Tell you what, Pettine is in for a helluva bad day if he doesn't find consistent QB play and He better find a running game as well.
Or he's destined for the same as Chud.. One and Done. (no, they wouldn't be that stupid to repeat that)
That's why I think getting good guard play is critical to setting up a running game. To be fair, Chudzinski had some bad luck (and bad coaching by his coordinators) to go along with his own bad decisions. Chudzinski could have started Hoyer from the start. It was his decision to go with Weeden to start the season. He did find consistent QB play. Unfortunately, following Hoyer's injury, it was all poor in it's consistency.
I don't think they'll be one and done. I don't know what to expect really. It's hard to determine at this point. If the team could find someone to give the Browns a 3rd or 4th rounder for Hoyer (who I think was the best QB on the roster last season), I would urge them to accept it. If not, I would be alright with them checking to see if Hoyer can be on the roster, either as starter or as a back-up. I do know that he got rid of the ball quickly and made better reads than Weeden or the experienced veteran Campbell.
Will they pull the plug so quickly on Pettine? Probably not. He may have it written into his contract that he cannot actually be fired from the HC job after one season. It might be a concession on his part to give the team the option about picking up his fifth year if he does well. I hope the Browns are at the point where they want to execute that option.
I can see it a few years ago playing a 4-3 against strong DT, but in today's game were 3-4 is the getting more preferred, why do you not think strong center play is better than having two strong guards?
As for cost, you're saving coin on one center instead of two guards. I do believe you need to add more talent at guard.
Are you simply distributing talent/cost to the guards? What I struggle with is playing both Pit and Bal twice with a less center. Having a strong center will allow free lancing from athletic guards. I am assuming the RT improves as well.
You do know Pittsburgh struggled for years getting a center until drafting Maurkice Pouncey. College talent at the center position has diminished last several years. Guards have remain relatively consistent, so why not strive having both a strong center and athletic guards? You can save cost at RB. See New England.
My biggest concern if we do let Mack walk is it takes years trying to get equivalent. Assuming your opinion is wrong. When Pittsburgh made Center a first round pick a few years ago increased my opinion on need of center.
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my assessment of mack? imo, he's the best center out there right now. never misses a game, is great in pass blocking, good at run blocking. hell, i don't remember him getting beat. i'm sure it has happened, but thats how rare it is.
Fair enough point. Is his play at such a higher level that it's worth 3 or 4 million per year more than centers like de la Puente? De la Puente played for a shade over $2 last year for New Orleans.
Asked another way, how much are you willing to pay Mack, average per season, and for how long? Would you pay him $4 million? 5 million? Six? Seven? Three years? Four years? Five?
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nobody called it a madden video game. but these guys earn these honors(pro bowl, all-pro) for a reason.
I'm nobody then? It appears to me that most people begging for the Browns to re-sign Mack are willing to pay him video game dollars. And the honors aren't what they used to be. Now, the honors are being given as much on reputation than for actual performance.
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first off, you keep forgetting, the reason these guys and coaches get so much money is because FAN'S pay for it. jersey sales, tickets, hotdogs, whatever, WE pay for it. you damn right its our money. see if our team doesn't move if we stop showing up to the games because of crap seasons every year...let that sink in.
That's partially true, however, they get more from the licensing rights than from the merchandise itself. Also, they get more from TV revenue deals than from any other source other than licensing.
The Browns would still be a profitable franchise and there will always be sales of concessions at the games. Let's say that they make $100 for every seat at every game (tickets, concessions, etc) and sell out every game. The stadium holds 73,200 people at full capacity. That comes to $7,320,000 per game. Multiply that times 8 (for the eight home games), that comes to less than $60 million in revenues per season. Each team had a maximum salary cap over $120 million. Even if you doubled the figure ($200 per seat - with every game sold out), the team would simply break even if they were near the cap.
What you're describing, sadly, isn't the case anymore. Teams can't make it what you buy anymore. They're licensing everything, including the names of the stadiums, to get revenue to make up for the shortfalls. They have to pay the office crew, scouts, grounds keepers, parking attendants, stadium maintenance, legal counsel, etc. also. Maybe you need to buy more stuff so that they can pay Alex Mack more money.
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i don't think DQ is overpaid.
Who didn't see that coming? I'll rest my case right there.
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here's my problem with your opinion. you're equating Puente as the reason why Brees has passed for all those yards. you need to make it clear to this board that isn't the case. because thats false beyond reason. the ENTIRE OL is the reason Brees has all that time.
I don't dispute that the entire OL in New Orleans did a nice job. So did the rest of the team. As a team, they went 11-5 this season and made the playoffs.
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you wanna use stats to based your argument, but how come you never mention how last year with mack at center, we had a top 5 ranked pass blocking line in the NFL? why does THAT always seem to miss being typed in your post?
I'm not mention it because I'm not considering it too much. I'm considering the dollar amounts. Which FA players next year are you going to let walk because you don't have the money to pay him? Haden? Taylor? Sheard? Cameron? Two pro-bowlers there too! Haden won't come cheap either. Cameron will probably have to be left to test the free agent market. Same with Taylor and Sheard.
Tell me how you fill those holes?
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it's not overpaying if that's what the guy deserves. imo, we overpaid for Kruger, and Byrant...and where did that leave us? but i can specifically remember you saying you loved those pick ups.
I don't dispute that the overpaid for Kruger and Bryant. I don't think that Kruger should be playing every down. Put him in the game like they used him in BallsNoMore and he can be more effective.
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but all of a sudden, you don't wanna pay mack whats he's worth? maybe you're the fool.
Maybe I am. So, I ask again, like I did near the beginning of this response. What's he worth? For how long?
easy, you pay him what the top dollar for a center is. and you make that contract 6-7 years.
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I can see it a few years ago playing a 4-3 against strong DT, but in today's game were 3-4 is the getting more preferred, why do you not think strong center play is better than having two strong guards?
I think that having two strong guards is a complimentary style. Each OL player helps the other with good play. Putting a star player next to a piece of crap is like having a jewelry quality stone on a nickel-plated piece of jewelry. I'd take a lower quality jewelry level stone set in lower quality metal (silver) over the high quality stone set in base metals.
Super Bowl time. I'll address more of this later.
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I can see it a few years ago playing a 4-3 against strong DT, but in today's game were 3-4 is the getting more preferred, why do you not think strong center play is better than having two strong guards?
I think that having two strong guards is a complimentary style. Each OL player helps the other with good play. Putting a star player next to a piece of crap is like having a jewelry quality stone on a nickel-plated piece of jewelry. I'd take a lower quality jewelry level stone set in lower quality metal (silver) over the high quality stone set in base metals.
Super Bowl time. I'll address more of this later.
I think we are inverted! You like guards. I like tackles and Center!
Super Bowl...such a let down...I was hoping game. I hate both teams!
Bring the debate tomorrow. Cheers!
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easy, you pay him what the top dollar for a center is. and you make that contract 6-7 years.
Okay. Say hello to a 4 or 5 win season again. That'll solve all the problems with the Browns.
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easy, you pay him what the top dollar for a center is. and you make that contract 6-7 years.
Okay. Say hello to a 4 or 5 win season again. That'll solve all the problems with the Browns.
Yep. The all pro center is the reason we're not winning games. Nothing else. It's literally all his fault. It's him and his .6% share of the total salary cap.
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As for cost, you're saving coin on one center instead of two guards. I do believe you need to add more talent at guard.
I agree. The guards have been needing upgrading for years. Gilkey might actually be able to get the job done. I don't know yet. Maybe new OL coaches will get something right with him and whoever else they have. Thank God the Warhop debacle is over and I'm not sure what that dual OL coach crap was that they brought in. I still shake my head at that.
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Are you simply distributing talent/cost to the guards? What I struggle with is playing both Pit and Bal twice with a less center. Having a strong center will allow free lancing from athletic guards. I am assuming the RT improves as well.
I would love to pick up Jared Veldheer (I wanted the Browns to draft him anyway) but they went with Montario Hardesty and then Colt McCoy (who I liked) and Shawn 'effing' Lauvao! That's the Holmgren & Heckert team we all know and hate.
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You do know Pittsburgh struggled for years getting a center until drafting Maurkice Pouncey.
And yet, they won Super Bowls in 2005 and 2008 without him on the team. Who was the starting center for those teams? I had to look it up. In 2005, they had Jeff Hartings (who was there a long time) and in 2008, with their 3rd center in as many seasons, they won it again with Justin Hartwig. But they also had problems with continuity with their guard spots. In 2008, they started a rookie at their RG spot for 12 games.
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College talent at the center position has diminished last several years. Guards have remain relatively consistent, so why not strive having both a strong center and athletic guards? You can save cost at RB. See New England.
You can get quality play from both the C and G positions. As for the RB, I don't have to look to NE. I can look at the Browns. We have Edwin Baker, Dion Lewis, Fozzy Whittaker and Chris Ogbonnaya. I purposefully left off Willis Magahee because he absolutely won't be back. His contract is over.
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My biggest concern if we do let Mack walk is it takes years trying to get equivalent. Assuming your opinion is wrong. When Pittsburgh made Center a first round pick a few years ago increased my opinion on need of center.
Dallas used a first round pick on Travis Frederick last year.
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I think we are inverted! You like guards. I like tackles and Center!
Super Bowl...such a let down...I was hoping game. I hate both teams!
Bring the debate tomorrow. Cheers!
I like them all. I just don't like overpaying them. For that matter, I don't want to overpay for any player.
I want good competent players at all locations but I don't want to have star players at one position while neglecting others because I can't afford to pay for competent players.
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easy, you pay him what the top dollar for a center is. and you make that contract 6-7 years.
Okay. Say hello to a 4 or 5 win season again. That'll solve all the problems with the Browns.
Yep. The all pro center is the reason we're not winning games. Nothing else. It's literally all his fault. It's him and his .6% share of the total salary cap.
Do you struggle be that ignorant or does it come naturally? Goodbye.
That would make sense if we didn't have to. We're perfectly fine signing anyone we want to.
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easy, you pay him what the top dollar for a center is. and you make that contract 6-7 years.
Okay. Say hello to a 4 or 5 win season again. That'll solve all the problems with the Browns.
We have 4-5 win seasons because we don't have a QB or even a RB.