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...I guess your proof will have to show everyone why you know for a fact that one of these guys is a possible franchise QB.
That door swings both ways. If you're requiring proof from someone else regarding predictions on the future then you'd likewise have to back up your own opinions with proof.
The only proof is after the fact.
You are absolutely right. Mine are only opinions and I am completely objective in them. He called me out with insults not the other way. It's impossible to predict the future. I was merely asking for his proof because he states his own opinion as fact that he knows these QBs can succeed here.
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There are several that I know can benefit the Browns and if some of the guys do declare they can get one and sit him for a year.
I'm not asking him to rub a crystal ball I'm just asking him to stand by his word that he KNOWS several can benefit the Browns. If anything more was implied I suppose I thought it obvious not to expect him to pull out our future lottery ticket of a QB(if one even exists).
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I guess I think myself foolish then. In all your own superior intellect how about you prove to me why then. Don't tell me why. Prove to me why because without proof all you are is a post number much larger than mine. Age and free time allotted to this board are not things I can change so I guess your proof will have to show everyone why you know for a fact that one of these guys is a possible franchise QB.
We agree on some things but you can't think I'd let you off the hook that easy. When you mentioned RG3/Luck it suggested because of the structure of your comment that there was a correlation there. Personally I grade Bridgewater higher than RG3. As far as instant statistics I think he'll fare better than Luck. He will require a better team around him. Lucks a whole different breed. But yes after Bridgewater there is a significant drop in talent. Hence why I think it's unwise to use a 1st or 2nd and hitch your wagon to a guy with a lot higher probability of failure. It just plain isn't wise IMO.
If U need me to try to do something that U can't figure out, then you're be waiting for a about a year or two..I don't have to furnish any proof, the proof will be the performance of any of the QBs' after they're drafted and play.
BTW I've been in here for a long time as well some others in here who know their stuff.
Debating in here has gone on for a long time so it doesn't bother me one bit as you'll find out.
Let me off the hook??? I have to chuckle on that one.This isn't about post number or anything petty like that, it's what one knows about the subject matter and can give some feedback to the board.
Just remember U said there isn't a QB in this draft that can help the Browns...that's your stance.
I have he opposite one.
And I'll make it elementary..there's about 3 QB's that can easily start for the Browns over the mess they have in there right now.
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I guess I think myself foolish then. In all your own superior intellect how about you prove to me why then. Don't tell me why. Prove to me why because without proof all you are is a post number much larger than mine. Age and free time allotted to this board are not things I can change so I guess your proof will have to show everyone why you know for a fact that one of these guys is a possible franchise QB.
We agree on some things but you can't think I'd let you off the hook that easy. When you mentioned RG3/Luck it suggested because of the structure of your comment that there was a correlation there. Personally I grade Bridgewater higher than RG3. As far as instant statistics I think he'll fare better than Luck. He will require a better team around him. Lucks a whole different breed. But yes after Bridgewater there is a significant drop in talent. Hence why I think it's unwise to use a 1st or 2nd and hitch your wagon to a guy with a lot higher probability of failure. It just plain isn't wise IMO.
If U need me to try to do something that U can't figure out, then you're be waiting for a about a year or two..I don't have to furnish any proof, the proof will be the performance of any of the QBs' after they're drafted and play.
BTW I've been in here for a long time as well some others in here who know their stuff.
Debating in here has gone on for a long time so it doesn't bother me one bit as you'll find out.
Let me off the hook??? I have to chuckle on that one.This isn't about post number or anything petty like that, it's what one knows about the subject matter and can give some feedback to the board.
Just remember U said there isn't a QB in this draft that can help the Browns...that's your stance.
I have he opposite one.
And I'll make it elementary..there's about 3 QB's that can easily start for the Browns over the mess they have in there right now.
Again the only reason I even used the word proof is because you fashioned your argument as truth not opinion my friend. Nothing more. I simply wanted a productive, well informed back and forth. You seem to have nothing but statements with no actually football knowledge behind them. You claim to a have a depth of information on the subject so I ask you to let it show if you must oppose me! Don't just tell me I'm wrong and laugh in a misplaced sense of hierarchy you claim doesn't exist.
Just remember U said there isn't a QB in this draft that can help the Browns...that's your stance.
That is not my stance. I oppose your stance. That does not make my stance the exact opposite. I have offered many issues with each QB but I never compared them to our current situation except that Teddy is the only one I like and that I don't think any of the rest are franchise QBs. Nothing about starting, their relative level of success or anything.
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I do NOT like this QB class outside of him and it's likely we can't have him.
I try to keep this detailed and interesting. Stances are nothing but future pecker measuring IMO. However in this case I will offer it. Manziel and Bortles would start. If not right away within 2 years. MY stance is that though some QB's may come in and start does not make them a Franchise QB. To me a Franchise QB is someone who has elevated themselves over at least 3 years to top 10 QB status and then stays there on at least a semi consistent basis.
I say this because sure it's a team sport, and non Franchise guys can win Superbowls(barely consider Eli a franchise guy) but a Franchise QB gets you to the playoffs year in and year out. I see no reason committing to a guy your not convinced is that level of guy. I see one possible Franchise QB, 2 midlevel guys, 1 bust and a decent amount of midround guys I REALLY like.
As I have said Manziel doesn't fit our offense so I don't consider him a possibility but in this O i could see him blossoming into a mid level starter. A Cutler, Ryan and especially Alex Smith level QB at best. Would we take that? Sure. But he has a huge bust factor, red flags and doesn't fit the Vert O. Not the kind of guy I hitch my coaching/managing career to.
Carr may start but he would fail quickly. No better than Weeden IMO. I am most critical of him. BUST. I see no need to say more.
Bortles has upside. The reason why I said he is my no2. He is better than what we have. But again I question his arm. He has accuracy, mobility and decision making to accel. Intangibles are still unknown. If we ran the WCO I would absolutely take Bortles. I just think his game would suffer in Cleveland.
What it comes down to is this. We have a unique opportunity to build a team similar in roster strength to the 49ers, Seahawks, Pitt, Denver, and KC have had in their respective dominant time of the 2000's or this year(KC, Denver). We have a GM trained by the master of pick stocking. That along with an owner that preaches continuity promotes patience, smart long term drafting and team building.
You go into a draft well aware that A)QB pickings will probably be better for you next year, B)You have stocked lower picks as well as recouped a pick by trade to begin the Belichick loop as I call it(yearly trading picks to allow more versatility)and C) that(because of your GMs confidence in himself) you can fill some holes and make it easier for any QB to come in and succeed. I think they'll wait and I agree with it. This is what I think. This is not what I know. I know nothing. Feel free to have fun with that comment.
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You go into a draft well aware that A) QB pickings will probably be better for you next year, I think they'll wait and I agree with it.
That is some seriously flawed thinking and I highly doubt any HC or GM thinks that way.
That is professional suicide.
I'm guessing you're thinking Winston and Mariota if he stays for next year. Possibly Hundley? I happen to love Kevin Hogan of Stanford.
Two things need to happen. Actually three.
All 3 need to continue to mature. All 3 need to stay healthy. All 3 need to declare as none are Seniors next year.
And the fourth thing is you better really stink record wise or you don't have a chance at getting the top guys.
No owner in their right mind will buy into a plan of "Next Year". This football team is alot closer to playoff contention than one might think. And that will take us right out of the QB derby next year.
Attack? Who are the 3 you like?
I have mine already. In order.
Hoyer starts the season as the #1.
Bortles
Bridgewater
Mariota
We could be sitting real pretty going forward with the luxury of having a Hoyer to hold down the fort for a bit. Bortles has more than enough arm for Cleveland. Norv Turner could easily fix any flaw he sees in his delivery. It could be as simple as moving the fingers up or back one string on the ball.
I know this much. We will go nowhere fast in this Division until we close the QB gap we have when compared to Flacco, Burger and Dalton.
We need to and CAN land several things on offense that will take us to playoff contention in 2014. And that is what I believe our plan is. We hit the defense hard this year. Now it's the offenses turn. And it can be done with FA and the draft. Even if we don't touch the OL.
QB QB QB QB QB
A #2 WR better than stone hands Little
A RB to carry the load with Lewis coming back
A solid CB to get Skrine and McFadden to the 3 and 4 spots
A solid ILB to replace Robertson
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Kwhip - I think both Mack and Lavao are free agents at the end of the year. If we lose one or both then oline significantly increases in priority.
I would put ILB as our number 1 need on defense followed closely by a playmaking FS. Gipson is okay but if we had a guy who could take advantage of the errant throw our defense would be so much better. While I agree that our Cb position could be upgraded I think that they are solid enough. Plus I don't think our current braintrust values Cb like Heckert did. Heckert had Qb, LT, DE, CB as the premier positions. I feel the current guys think that if you get enough pressure on the QB then the db's don't need to be that good.
Predator - Re: Bortles. I watched some internet stuff on him yesterday and watched specifically his release. I just dont see what you are talking about. He doesn't have a super quick release but neither is it super slow. Seemed pretty smack on average to me. And I did notice the wobble but personally I think a tight spiral is overrated. A lot of tight spiral guys have issues in bad weather and some of the greats have wobble. Watch Peyton Manning. His spiral isn't always the tightest. Neither is Brady's. Joe Montana had a lot of wobble. I think sometimes a little wobble makes the ball easier to catch. The one thing that I saw that I didn't like was that there were several plays that I couldn't tell if he was throwing the ball away or if he just made a bad pass. If it was a bad pass then it was really really bad. I suspect he was throwing it away because the wr was covered but the way he threw it away gets intercepted in the NFL. If you throw it away throw it away.
Attack - An under the radar guy that I am currently high on, though admittedly I need to see more of, is James Franklin from Missouri. Throws a very nice deep ball. Seems to be a good leader. Looking froward to watching his bowl game. Right now I have him targeted with our 2nd 3rd round pick and think that would be a steal. But with one game and the combine etc still ahead of us things can certainly change.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Legend
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jc. Hoyer adds depth, insurance at quarterback http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/2818/hoyer-adds-depth-insurance-at-quarterbackMaybe my favorite aspect of the NFL is trying to read the clues decision-makers give during the team-building process. A little less than a year ago when Mike Lombardi & Co. took over the Cleveland Browns, it became very apparent that this group was looking to the future and maybe more specifically, this upcoming offseason. [+] EnlargeBrian Hoyer AP Photo/Tony Dejak Brian Hoyer could be a valuable stopgap as the Browns develop a young, franchise quarterback. Cleveland’s coaching staff and front office has now had a full season to evaluate their players, but they also have ample cap space to add talent via free agency. The key here is how well prepared they are for this upcoming draft. Not only did they trade Trent Richardson for the Indianapolis Colts' first round pick, but they also consistently traded down during the last draft to accumulate more selections for 2014. With such collateral at their disposal, the obvious route that many expect this team to go with all those resources is to finally get a franchise quarterback in Cleveland. They will most likely do this through the draft this year in what looks to be a deep class with first rounder quarterback prospects. But the Browns also have quarterbacks on their roster. One in particular is quite intriguing. In a season that featured three different starting quarterbacks, Brian Hoyer clearly was the Browns' best in 2013. I like where Cleveland stands in this regard in the big picture, which is all this organization should be thinking about. It seems unlikely that Jason Campbell or Brandon Weeden is with the Browns in 2014, but keeping Hoyer would be a very wise move. Hoyer only took 155 snaps this season over the course of three games, before getting injured at the very beginning of Cleveland’s Week 5 contest against the Bills. Expectations were not high, but he looked very good in limited playing tine with a completion percentage right under 60 percent with a 5:3 touchdown to interception ratio. Hoyer threw 321 yards in Minnesota in Week 3 in relief of Weeden and then for 269 yards at home against the Bengals the following week in his first start. But let’s look past the numbers. When I was the Assistant Recruiting Coordinator at the University of Pittsburgh, I watched Hoyer as a high school quarterback at St. Ignatius high school in Cleveland. Hoyer is now 28 years old and has been with four teams over his five NFL seasons, including a very brief stint with the Steelers. Hoyer isn’t physically overwhelming. But he is more than adequate for the position, including having a good enough arm to deal with the harsh elements in his hometown of Cleveland late in the season. Hoyer isn’t afraid to make throws, which also worked against him at times. During his time behind center this season, Hoyer clearly favored Josh Gordon, which made sense. But Hoyer has very functional mobility, can extend a play and never goes down without a fight. His style of play seemed to inspire his teammates. From what we saw this year, Hoyer looks like the ideal guy to compete with a talented rookie quarterback in camp next year. He can either hold down the fort until the youngster is ready or act as a mentor and high quality backup. _______ i just think, honestly, our defense, no, our entire TEAM played with inspiration when he was starting. i'm not saying he would've took us to the playoffs this year, but no way in hell are we a 4 win team with him starting day 1 this season. he should be the starter going into 2014, with our rookie behind him.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Pretty much stuff we all kinda thought anyway, But thanks Swish for posting.. This was kinda funny Quote:
They will most likely do this through the draft this year in what looks to be a deep class with first rounder quarterback prospects.
Will we take a QB in the draft, I think so, but is this draft deep? I don't think so. Oh well, one mans opinion.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I see a lot of "Wait til next year for a QB because there's better QB's" posts.
I find that pretty ironic considering the majority of the board was bashing the FO because they were trading 4th and 5th round picks for future 3rd and 4ths, because "We had to fill holes"
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Good article. Quote:
i just think, honestly, our defense, no, our entire TEAM played with inspiration when he was starting. i'm not saying he would've took us to the playoffs this year, but no way in hell are we a 4 win team with him starting day 1 this season.
he should be the starter going into 2014, with our rookie behind him.
When Hoyer went down, I think 90% of the hearts of all the players on this roster fully collapsed. The wind, the steam, the whatever - was taken and only returned on small dosages. The effects of Weeden, as starter, seemed to be very toxic in retrospect. Toxic for the players and for sure toxic for the fans.
I will tell you one thing, Hoyer is hte only reason I have a some-what, little, small amount of "warm and cozy feeling" about the QB situation. Just wished we could have rode the season out with him cause whew, he was that proverbial "spark" this team seemed to need. All JMO
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I see a lot of "Wait til next year for a QB because there's better QB's" posts.
You'll see it again next year. Then the year after that. And the year after that.
What happens is fans over analyze any QB that isn't perfect.
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I think we make the playoffs if Hoyer hadn't gotten hurt.
One thing you can't teach is intelligence ... or QB intelligence in this case. The second thing is passion. While he still has growing to do in the QB intelligence category, he demonstrated he understands what he's doing out there. And I loved the passion. And so did the players.
Not sure what I think about him moving forward, however. I think it depends on what we do in the draft. I'm not a big fan of "sitting and learning". Play the best guy. If we draft someone who is better, play him. But if it turns out that Hoyer is the real deal and helps set the stage for a guy we draft this year, so be it ... as long as we are winning ... it's time we start putting as many if not more wins on the board than losses ... 8-8 or better from here on out. 4 or 5 wins next year is not going to be acceptable under any circumstances. That is pathetic. Double digit losses in 10 of 11 seasons is mind boggling.
Enough is enough with that crap.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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You go into a draft well aware that A) QB pickings will probably be better for you next year, I think they'll wait and I agree with it.
That is some seriously flawed thinking and I highly doubt any HC or GM thinks that way.
That is professional suicide.
Is it not professional suicide to jump the gun and take uncalculated risks? And I'm not talking about specific players at all for next year. Impossible to predict so I don't see a point in calling it a strong draft or weak. You base it off average. This class is deep in mid round QB, has an average to above average top prospect compared to usual top prospects and a few 2nd and 3rd round guys the most coveted of which will become top 15 picks because of need.
I don't see that as a smart decision to dive into the abyss of this years QB class. It's not value like later prospects and its not a top prospect. If we go for next level after Teddy we are reaching for need. Manuel, Geno, Weeden, Tannehill, Gabbert, Ponder, Locker, Dalton, Kaepernick, Tebow, Clausen, Sanchez, Freeman. Not the greatest group of fellows.
It's not that I want to wait til next year. I hate the idea of it. Personally and professionally. But with this class I see no choice. I see no reason to use a 1st on a guy with only marginally higher success rate and skills when I could use a 3rd or 4th on a guy, build my team, enhance the surrounding for a better prospect, enhance the core of my QB position as a whole and not to mention possibly recoup some value later on from a 3rd or 4th round QB because of a stronger base talent level of my team making them look good. But that's a whole different topic all together.
As far as Bortles arm. I noticed it right away after I was suggested by I believe Vers to watch him a few months ago. It worried me then and it still does. It has come up in a lot of different fronts on Bortles. People are noticing so what will the scouts notice? His release is similar to I want to say Rivers when he came out. Can someone verify that? Very shortened and slow. Rivers kept it short and sped it up to help. Hopefully Bortles can too.
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Rivers always had a very quick, compact release even back to his college days, though seriously unorthadox. Bortles has a quick release on short throws, but anything downfield requires a big windup.
I'm not nearly as high on Bortles as many are. I certainly don't see him as a 1st rounder. However, desperation often motivates people to see what they wish to see in players, which is why people like those you mentioned go in the 1st round when they shouldn't have.
If a QB who isn't a reach is sitting there when we draft, take him and don't look back. If the only available QB when we're drafting is a reach, pass him over and build the rest of the team.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Tell me how I insulted U preditor?
My reference in case U didn't get it was the Kirk to Khan in Star Trek 2..but sarcasm may not be your thing..
I'm going to have U prove my point for me..
Let me ask U something..would RG3 have helped the Browns had they drafted him?
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Quote:
Tell me how I insulted U preditor?
My reference in case U didn't get it was the Kirk to Khan in Star Trek 2..but sarcasm may not be your thing..
I'm going to have U prove my point for me..
Let me ask U something..would RG3 have helped the Browns had they drafted him?
with a better line he would have here? cameron and gordon?
i can't predict the future, but i can tell you, with RG3 here, the way our defense played, we don't lose that game against the eagles in the opener.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I want to hear his answer..This is a loaded question.
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Tell me how I insulted U preditor?
My reference in case U didn't get it was the Kirk to Khan in Star Trek 2..but sarcasm may not be your thing..
I'm going to have U prove my point for me..
Let me ask U something..would RG3 have helped the Browns had they drafted him?
I was mistaken. It resembled a school yard tactic. I have never seen Star Trek. I was very young during it's popular years. Your quip, if you revisit it, could have easily been seen as an insinuation that I thought higher of myself. No harm done but truly the "insult" was of little importance. It did not affect my direction in our banter. Purely you claiming to know rather than think.
I must ask you to reframe your question though. It is incredibly loaded as your chosen example includes trading not just the upright taking of a QB at our selection. Perhaps Tannehil is a better example? A 2nd tier QB many thought could start and help but few thought had a strong chance of being a top 10 or as I put it "Franchise" QB.
Because I saw RG3 as a Franchise caliber prospect. So had he been inserted onto the Browns I absolutely think he would make a difference. He was as a prospect far superior to what we had and even as an injury riddled QB now he is superior to what we have. RG3 was no Manziel, Bortles or Carr of a prospect. RG3 was known by most as a generational prospect only to a lesser extent to Luck. Certainly he was second best to Luck. Add to that that we would, because of the trade and in hindsight, basically be trading Mingo and Schwartz for RG3. A trade we would win any day and that's coming from the guy who endorsed both of them heavily.
But it's not about getting the best QB in any one draft as you know. It's about getting the best prospect possible for your team during a window of opportunity for your current organizational makeup.
I see no reason why if our FO deemed this class an ill fit for our team based on the O we run, the position we are drafting(trading included), the window of employment of our FO not in immediate jeopardy and the team as it sits that we are forced to hitch our GM and Coach to a QB they feel is not suited.
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I'll tackle the other stuff later as I'm busy..if U say RG3 is a franchise caliber QB and U have Bridgewater rated higher, than there is a QB in this draft that will help the Browns if they can get him.
So U proved my point.
I know there's a few that can help them if they get the right one.
I speak confidently which may bother U , becsuse I've been around long enough to know how to evaluate players...err corners are my specialty.
But I'm not the only one who has a eye for that..several others who chime in at some time are able to also..
Man good thing U weren't around when this board was the actual main Browns message board..the wars and arguments would have sent U packing.. 
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I see a lot of "Wait til next year for a QB because there's better QB's" posts.
You'll see it again next year. Then the year after that. And the year after that.
What happens is fans over analyze any QB that isn't perfect.
I don't think the QB class will be any better and I think it foolish to plan for such. However I do think that this particular class, where we sit and our restrictions for a Franchise level prospect limit us.
That is a good point to be made. JUst as the Browns fan motto goes. Next year always seems greener. I just think given that I find this years setup for a QB for our particular team unfriendly that probability says you'll be better off next year. Law of averages says a below average situation only increases the chances of an average or better situation occurring the next roll.
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Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/26/13 09:20 PM.
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I'll tackle the other stuff later as I'm busy..if U say RG3 is a franchise caliber QB and U have Bridgewater rated higher, than there is a QB in this draft that will help the Browns if they can get him.
So U proved my point.
I know there's a few that can help them if they get the right one.
I speak confidently which may bother U , becsuse I've been around long enough to know how to evaluate players...err corners are my specialty.
But I'm not the only one who has a eye for that..several others who chime in at some time are able to also..
Man good thing U weren't around when this board was the actual main Browns message board..the wars and arguments would have sent U packing..
My entire argument began with Bridgewater as a base of him being either unavailable or going back to school. Somehow you missed that. It's my first post.
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I really hope Bridgewater goes back to school. I do NOT like this QB class outside of him and it's likely we can't have him. Draft a developmental guy in the 4th and go in with Hoyer, Campbell and a rook. I'd rather take a Mettenberger than use a 1st on a guy like Carr.
So, no, I did not prove your point at all but rather you misunderstood or became confused.
Confidence is backed by knowledge and accompanied by poise. Judging by your eagerness to avoid my detail you tell me you seek only to be correct, not to learn or truly debate. That is arrogance, cockiness or some other cocktail of misguided certainty not confidence. When experience ceases to seek knowledge it gets passed by.
Experience is a thing to be sought but to think it is the only factor in ones ability to evaluate a player. Experience should teach one better than that my friend. Every scout, GM and coach would be a skilled hover-round pilot if true. I can assure you your Star Trek humor neither boiled my blood nor came anywhere near sending me packing. The use of Star Trek and expectation everyone would know it was rather funny though. You will have to try much harder than that.
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j/c:
This was actually one of the only threads that was generating some good football talk. The bickering is ruining it.
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All Pro
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TJ Ward is gawd!!!!!!1111one   Sorry couldnt help myself.
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I'll tackle the other stuff later as I'm busy..if U say RG3 is a franchise caliber QB and U have Bridgewater rated higher, than there is a QB in this draft that will help the Browns if they can get him.
So U proved my point.
I know there's a few that can help them if they get the right one.
I speak confidently which may bother U , becsuse I've been around long enough to know how to evaluate players...err corners are my specialty.
But I'm not the only one who has a eye for that..several others who chime in at some time are able to also..
Man good thing U weren't around when this board was the actual main Browns message board..the wars and arguments would have sent U packing..
My entire argument began with Bridgewater as a base of him being either unavailable or going back to school. Somehow you missed that. It's my first post.
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I really hope Bridgewater goes back to school. I do NOT like this QB class outside of him and it's likely we can't have him. Draft a developmental guy in the 4th and go in with Hoyer, Campbell and a rook. I'd rather take a Mettenberger than use a 1st on a guy like Carr.
So, no, I did not prove your point at all but rather you misunderstood or became confused.
Confidence is backed by knowledge and accompanied by poise. Judging by your eagerness to avoid my detail you tell me you seek only to be correct, not to learn or truly debate. That is arrogance, cockiness or some other cocktail of misguided certainty not confidence. When experience ceases to seek knowledge it gets passed by.
Experience is a thing to be sought but to think it is the only factor in ones ability to evaluate a player. Experience should teach one better than that my friend. Every scout, GM and coach would be a skilled hover-round pilot if true. I can assure you your Star Trek humor neither boiled my blood nor came anywhere near sending me packing. The use of Star Trek and expectation everyone would know it was rather funny though. You will have to try much harder than that.
To try and qualify yourself by saying that U excluded TB because of not being available is a copout.
Fact is he could be if a certain other QB declares.
And even so, there are still 3 that I consider eventual starters..3 I haven't named.
If U base things only on the skillset of whats in Berea now, there's a ton of upside in this draft, be it a first rounder or a second round QB.
Right now I'm not getting in all your philosophical stuff about learning or anything else.
As I told U before, if U want to think otherwise , go ahead, me..I'll stick to what I said. There is some help for the Browns,,they just have to be smart enough to sniff it out.
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Rivers is quick and compact. It really looks like he almost shot putts the ball. But make no mistake Rivers does not have a fastball. He does not have a strong arm. What he does is alter his timing to compensate.
Bortles like you stated is quick on the short throws. His delivery lengthens with the depth of the throw.
What I do like about Bortles is his coolness in and around the pocket. He moves and slides well, while keeping his vision downfield. He doesn't seem to rattle much. He pump fakes. He doesn't stare down one guy. He has played well in the clutch.
When you break this guy down. He looks like a bottom of the first. Top of the second guy. But with the need at the position he will be drafted higher.
I have only looked at a few games; SC and Louisville. I will watch him more. I can see how he is climbing up the boards. The coming Bowl game should be interesting.
Just my guess but he appears like the type of guy that Banner/Lombardi/Chud, Turner would like. But when you look at him to Carr by comparison a couple things stand out. Carr can really spin it, and he has a really quick powerful arm. The difference though is Carr falls apart under pressure and rushes everything. Bortles has much more poise.
The management group may think they want to work with the physical talent of Carr and believe they can coach him up. I believe the opposite. Calmness, anticipation, and timing are skills that for many never come no matter their physical talent.
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Quote:
j/c:
This was actually one of the only threads that was generating some good football talk. The bickering is ruining it.
My apologies Vers. You are correct. I take the blame on that. I realize now he is not worth my time.
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Rivers is quick and compact. It really looks like he almost shot putts the ball. But make no mistake Rivers does not have a fastball. He does not have a strong arm. What he does is alter his timing to compensate.
Bortles like you stated is quick on the short throws. His delivery lengthens with the depth of the throw.
What I do like about Bortles is his coolness in and around the pocket. He moves and slides well, while keeping his vision downfield. He doesn't seem to rattle much. He pump fakes. He doesn't stare down one guy. He has played well in the clutch.
When you break this guy down. He looks like a bottom of the first. Top of the second guy. But with the need at the position he will be drafted higher.
I have only looked at a few games; SC and Louisville. I will watch him more. I can see how he is climbing up the boards. The coming Bowl game should be interesting.
Just my guess but he appears like the type of guy that Banner/Lombardi/Chud, Turner would like. But when you look at him to Carr by comparison a couple things stand out. Carr can really spin it, and he has a really quick powerful arm. The difference though is Carr falls apart under pressure and rushes everything. Bortles has much more poise.
The management group may think they want to work with the physical talent of Carr and believe they can coach him up. I believe the opposite. Calmness, anticipation, and timing are skills that for many never come no matter their physical talent.
Rivers sure can create some speed with that quick release though. He just can't really control it. With limited motion he can't zing it in there when the window is tight. He has to rely on the anticipation as you said.
That's my problem. I just can't get past the fact that we'd be one of those teams reaching for need because of the huge importance of QB. Do you think Bortles has enough blue chip qualities to be able to overlook his arm? I know you guys don't feel as strongly about the arm issue as I do but I'm curious if you think it's smart. Those reaching teams I listed earlier do not have a good success rate at all.
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First of all, I didn't write that stuff about Bortles and Rivers. I believe bonefish wrote that.
I think Rivers has a good arm. His motion is unorthodox, but he can get the ball there in plenty of time. I also think Bortles has plenty of arm strength. It's not a concern at all.
I don't know if you remember this, but I brought up Bortles up early in the year. He was my sleeper. I thought he would be a steal in the 3rd or 4th round but said he would probably shoot up the charts. Well, he has shot up the charts.
I don't know if Bortles is a first round pick or not. I loved him when I mentioned him as a possible 3rd round pick. I don't think he does anything great, but he does everything well. He is a solid guy.
I have him as my number 2 QB in this draft and that is even if Mariota comes out. I do think that there is quite a bit of difference between him and Bridgewater, though. I don't know.......there probably is no doubt that he is going in the first round. I probably would be okay w/it if we take him w/the pick we get from the Colts. This is a tough call. I don't think he has as much of a bust factor like Manziel, Mariota, Hundley, Mettenberger, and Boyd have, but I am not sure I really see star quality out of the guy. He's solid.
I would still prefer we make a big push for Bridgewater. Man, I hate giving up picks, but we could get him for our top first round pick this year and our first round pick next year.....I would do it. I'm no draft trade expert, so I don't even know if that is realistic. I do think the Skins overpaid for RGIII and you won't see that type of deal again.
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as long as we don't get any more colt mccoys or brady quinn's.
hoyer had plenty of arm strength to get the ball down field to gordon.
anything less than hoyer's arm strength, and we shouldn't even be considering the QB.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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First of all, I didn't write that stuff about Bortles and Rivers. I believe bonefish wrote that.
I think Rivers has a good arm. His motion is unorthodox, but he can get the ball there in plenty of time. I also think Bortles has plenty of arm strength. It's not a concern at all.
I don't know if you remember this, but I brought up Bortles up early in the year. He was my sleeper. I thought he would be a steal in the 3rd or 4th round but said he would probably shoot up the charts. Well, he has shot up the charts.
I don't know if Bortles is a first round pick or not. I loved him when I mentioned him as a possible 3rd round pick. I don't think he does anything great, but he does everything well. He is a solid guy.
I have him as my number 2 QB in this draft and that is even if Mariota comes out. I do think that there is quite a bit of difference between him and Bridgewater, though. I don't know.......there probably is no doubt that he is going in the first round. I probably would be okay w/it if we take him w/the pick we get from the Colts. This is a tough call. I don't think he has as much of a bust factor like Manziel, Mariota, Hundley, Mettenberger, and Boyd have, but I am not sure I really see star quality out of the guy. He's solid.
I would still prefer we make a big push for Bridgewater. Man, I hate giving up picks, but we could get him for our top first round pick this year and our first round pick next year.....I would do it. I'm no draft trade expert, so I don't even know if that is realistic. I do think the Skins overpaid for RGIII and you won't see that type of deal again.
and that what worries me vers. i mean we could definitely make that deal with st. louis for the pick.
but, it be pointless if houston picks him, ya know? do you see houston entertaining any deals? especially since they need a QB as well?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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but, it be pointless if houston picks him, ya know? do you see houston entertaining any deals? especially since they need a QB as well?
Good question.
I hear what you are saying. You're probably right. I suppose I got my hopes up when guys like Kiper and McShay were saying that Teddy wasn't the top player in the draft. But, you are right, Houston needs a QB. <<sigh>>
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Yeah I was just responding to both at the same time was all. And I was referring to you about him being a sleeper not sharing my issue with his arm.
Could we already be seeing the rumor mills churning to affect a players stock? I just read one AFC scout say Teddy isn't a 1st round pick.
It could happen that Houston wins this weekend. It would be dumb of them but the Titans aren't exactly contenders. If they win the no1 goes to St Louis right?
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jk The Scouting Blog By: Alex Khvatov 12/27 In this edition of the scouting blog, I have decided to breakdown the performance of the Fresno State senior QB Derek Carr against USC in the Las Vegas Bowl. Derek Carr completed 30/54 passes for 217 yards, two touchdowns and one interception in the Las Vegas Bowl. He was 26 of 35 on short throws, 3 of 10 on intermediate ones and 1 of 9 on deep throws. To be fair, his completion percentage should have been much higher, but his receivers didn't do him any favors. I counted six drops by the group as a whole against USC's defense. Carr has good size and an incredibly strong arm. He can make all of the necessary throws at the next level. He is an athletic signal caller. He ran a 4.56 forty in the spring before his junior season. He has a very quick release and shows good anticipation on most of his throws. The opening drive of the game was by far his best one. On the first offensive play, Carr found redshirt sophomore WR Davante Adams on a fade route. The fade route is definitely his best throw in the arsenal. Then he found WR Isaiah Burse on a slant route for a touchdown. He fit the ball into a very tight window on that particular play. Some of the NFL quarterbacks would have a difficult time completing that pass. But it all went downhill after that. At the end of the first quarter, he got hit and went down with a left shoulder injury. It seemed to bother Carr as he got up, but he stayed in the game and didn't miss any snaps. Most of his completions came on underneath throws. He completed a lot of short bubble screens to wide receivers like he has all season. His ball placement was shaky throughout the game. Carr misfired on some easy short passes and also overthrew a few deep shots where his receivers were wide open. Those are the types of throws that he has to complete at the next level. He didn't tend to go through his progressions. Most of the time, he locked on to his primary receiver. If the primary target wasn't open, he dumped the ball off to his RB for an easy completion. Carr seemed confused by the different looks and coverages that USC's defense threw at him. My biggest concern with Carr is the lack of poise that he showed under pressure during this game. He rushed his throws, and some of his incompletions were a result of him being under duress. He showed happy feet. His footwork continues to be a work in progress. Many of his passes were thrown off balance. A couple of passes were thrown off his back foot which was a major issue for him last season. He didn't set his feet consistently and didn't step into his throws. He relied too much on his arm instead of being fundamentally sound. The hype train leading up to this game was getting out of control. Many analysts had Derek Carr as a top 5 or a top 10 pick in their mock drafts. But this game exposed the flaws in his game. Some people will point out that this is just one game, and it won't hurt his draft stock. I tend to disagree. Carr has put up huge numbers against weak competition all season long. This was his chance to shine on the big stage against a fast and aggressive 3-4 defense. USC's defense hasn't been stellar, and their secondary has given up big plays all season long, yet Carr didn't take advantage of the opportunity and struggled mightily. I came away disappointed with his performance after this game. Derek Carr has all of the physical tools that you look for in an NFL QB, but he needs to work on his fundamentals. I project him as a late first/early second round pick in May. http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/scoutingblog.html
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Anybody have a scouting report on Keith Wenning Qb Ball St?
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My biggest concern with Carr is the lack of poise that he showed under pressure during this game. He rushed his throws, and some of his incompletions were a result of him being under duress. He showed happy feet.
That is an euphemism for saying he played scared.
I am not kidding you guys about this: I would not draft Carr under any circumstances. You can't win w/guys like that. Other positions, such as the OL and receivers take the blame for them. Coordinators take more blame. Head coaches take the blame. We have seen this before.
You never want your leader on the field to be soft. I will be very upset if the Browns draft Carr. That move will be akin to us drafting Timid. They will have to stick w/the guy for several years. It will set this franchise back years.
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Well, if we draft him then I think I see the silver lining ... this franchise can't possibly be set back much farther than it currently is. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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we could definitely make that deal with st. louis for the pick.
If Washington loses to NYG, and Houston beats Tenn, giving the Rams the 1st pick - is it a given that St Louis wouldn't want Bridgewater? And if they did, what are thoughts here about trading for Sam Bradford? I'm kind of ambivalent about Bradford. I've read here and elsewhere that he has elite talent, but I haven't seen much of it. His QBR this year is 90.9, but his yards-per-attempt are a Colt-ish 6.44.
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Many analysts had Derek Carr as a top 5 or a top 10 pick in their mock drafts. But this game exposed the flaws in his game.
Didn't at all like what I saw of Carr when I spent several hours on him a month ago and I don't like him now.
He's Jake Locker. I don't like Jake Locker. And like Jake Locker, he's going to go much too high in the draft.
We don't need to be the next team to take a Christian Ponder too highly and hand him the keys to the castle, and nothing I've seen in the last several weeks can sway me from believing Carr is not close to a 1st round guy.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thanks for the Wenning links guys. No time to watch the videos this morning but looking forward to seeing him throw.
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