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"Go back and look at Gresham's TD and watch Ward duck his head and fly by right in front of Gresham. He completely missed him."
TJ was on Browns Red Zone this week, he was well aware of this as he consciously
made the decision not to hit him where he really wanted too. He went for the ball & missed. As he said, this is the new NFL and is trying to play in the rules. I found his comments interesting an enlightning.
If I only knew then what I know today...
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He did that three separate times during the game. He ducked his head each time. The guys were not in the end zone or out of bounds. They all gained more yards.
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#gmstrong
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As for Mingo, I consider this still to be one of the most accurate Mingo-profiles out there, both pre-draft and after his first 11 starts and it contains every pro/con I see in him, especially the bolded part and why I considered him an elite project, but project nonetheless: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2013profiles/Barkevious.Mingo.htmBarkevious Mingo DE/OLB LSU TALENT BOARD ROUND 2 STRENGTHS Barkevious is one of the hardest working players on the field for every down in every game he plays. He shows on film to have a quick burst off the line, good foot speed and excellent change of direction skills along with the right size to play more than one position on the defense for the team that drafts him. He has solid overall instincts, football intelligence and looks to be an excellent teammate. Barkevious has the size and length the NFL teams are looking for in a pass rusher to go along with his natural athletic skills, which will make teams very interested in drafting him early in this draft. Right now, he plays with his hand down most of the time in different fronts, but he has the overall talent to drop off the line in pass coverage. Barkevious has excellent mental stamina and football intelligence. On the field, Barkevious plays with the effort and enthusiasm of a Teddy Bruschi, and has the size and athletic talents of a Jason Taylor. The problem is that he doesn't have their strength. CONCERNS Barkevious is skinny and lacks the strength to finish plays and make tackles. Mentally, he seems to be very happy as a disrupter. I have seen him up against double teams, and even triple teams, and he handles himself well; however, once he beats the player or players blocking him, it's like he's playing flag football and doesn't finish the play. It's almost as if he looks at a spot on the field and says to himself that he wants to get to that spot as quickly as possible and when he does, that's good enough. He runs players down from behind, but only after they have gone past the line of scrimmage. Some of that has to do with his responsibility assignment and some of it is waiting for someone else to make the play. He doesn't wrap up very well and most of the time, running backs break his tackles at the college level. I don't understand why Barkevious hasn't gotten any stronger from the first time I saw him play. BOTTOM LINE Barkevious is relentless. He is like that dog chewing on your favorite slipper and when you go to take it away from him, he teases you with it thinking you're playing a game. Unfortunately, at the strength level Barkevious is at right now, he will never hold up for a 16 game schedule as a starter. He may in the future, but for his first year, teams will have to build this kid up to handle the pounding at the next level. After you build him up, you have to hope it doesn't affect his speed and quickness. Then, after that, you are going to have to use a cattle prod to change this kid's mentality so that he will wrap up and finish plays. If you choose to use him as a OLB in a 3-4 defense, he must become a better open field tackler and, once again, will have to be able to make sacks. Let me tell you, I doubt that he will be able to sack a big, strong QB in the NFL at his current size and strength. Those QB's will flick him off like a fly on a piece of fruit. The key for me in drafting a player like this is the fact that his effort on every play is outstanding and I can see how a lot of teams will want to select him very early in this draft for that reason alone. But like that dog with the slipper, unless he can get stronger, become a better tackler and finish plays, Barkevious will just be a tease -- always around the play, but missing the tackle on the most important play of the game.
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He is very raw and is only going to improve, yet people act like he sucks and is a finished product.
See Buster Skrine.
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I am betting this guy ends up being a very productive player. He will continue to improve and all you guys who are bad-mouthing him will act like you were fans of his all along.
See Buster Skrine.
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Yeah...Mingo I think is the real deal. He would have gotten much needed playing time except for the fact that Sheard has surpassed everyones expectations and I'm including our Coaching Staff and FO...Mingo is running our 101 Defensive scheme. This is where continuity in scheme will have them get better with Mingo it will be personified as he heads into year two in 2014. His explosion is Real his speed is real - he don't tackle as bad as advertised.
Vers...for the life of me I don't understand your dislike of Ward. So you were correct on several disappointments. Usually you eat Crow by now but with Ward you are standing fast although that ship is sinking like the Titanic. You can take the greatest Safeties in the NFL in their best season and find mistakes. He is not perfect. His coverage is improving which is a big factor in a young starter. His purpose in this defense is making him cross the line of Good to Great. Which makes just about everyone baffled on you insisting in putting him in the class of a Weeden.
Lets face it Heckert made some darn good picks for us. Most of our DL as well as our entire starting DB unit...add Sheard.
DJ I think its funny on your criticism of Vers using the thought process of I was correct on A n B therefore C is correct also...cause I see that utilized by you as well...lol  Probably me too for that matter 
JMHO
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He did that three separate times during the game. He ducked his head each time. The guys were not in the end zone or out of bounds. They all gained more yards.
Ward can excuse it away however he likes but when the day was done he gets a big fat F for his "effort" to take down Gresham on that TD.
Sounds a little bit like I'm calling Ward a liar. Could be. 
The ONLY place you can't hit a player legally is in the head. Ward didn't even wrap-up, he just flat-out whiffed.
I've never seen a player "go for the ball" with his head pointed right down at the ground. 
Gresham isn't some QB who has a tiny strike-zone. He's 6'5 260. I'm not buying what Ward said for a moment. He just flat-out blew it.
Vers, getting back to Mingo, we might be talking two somewhat different things. My observations aren't about him being too weak to be physical. I see him as simply not wanting to be physical.
I'm not writing the guy off. Way too soon for that. I simply think that his problems are far less about technique and more about desire.
As for his build, he is long and lean but I don't see a big frame. I don't believe he can put on much more weight, but I also don't believe he has to. With his natural acceleration and speed it just comes down to desire. If he ever decides to get tough he can be very good. Right now I see a guy who is flat-out afraid to get in there and mix it up. I sincerely doubt he'll ever be any good against the run but if he can disrupt that's far more important today.
Time will tell.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DJ I think its funny on your criticism of Vers using the thought process of I was correct on A n B therefore C is correct also...cause I see that utilized by you as well...lol Probably me too for that matter :angel
Sure, we all did, but to use it as an argument on player X to have been "right" about player A and B (and he was far from "alone" on those as he claims to boot), who have absolutely nothing to do with each other and aren't even comparable as they never were perceived the way player X was.
So what "remains" as an argument here? To me that's pretty clear, it's the honeybadger way of "arguing". When you run out of arguments you just chest pump and tell em about a play you made last week, lol
It was an easy case of just "agreeing to disagree", but he did take it to another level with the "remember when" stuff. That's never been an argument for anything but ego stroking…and above all, it has NOTHING to do with what was discussed. Then he goes all diva that others are making it "personal", umm no? He made it personal right there by comparing apples with oranges. "I know what an apple tastes like, I once ate an orange" 
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Buster Skrine is a very BAD example…sure, they're VERY comparable, I agree, but he was a 5th round project, that needed over 2 seasons to become starting material. He's in his 3rd season, playing good right now, but started off slow, so overall that is still somewhat an AVG season, but much more than any of us expected. He may have hit his ceiling or is nearing it, that's great to see, but if it does take Mingo the same time, then I will consider him a bust, sorry. You don't take a player 6th overall and hope he is starting material in year 3 and play nickel/situational rusher until then. That's GREAT for any 3rd day pick like Skrine, but simply a disappointment for top 10 picks like Mingo, Haden or TRich. You need those guys from day one, not when they're closer to their FA year than their 1st game, that's bad value
If Mingo was a 5th rounder I would praise Banner and or Lombardi daily for finding an elite project like him, because it would mean we would have him AND a "normal" top 10 pick, but reality is Mingo alone represents the massive value of that 6th overall. I'd be ok if he was our 2nd rounder and 2nd pick of the draft, but he was drafted where he was and unlike Vers, I'm not going to apply double standards in expectation to top 10 picks.
In many ways this is similar to the Mack pick, where I liked the player but HATED the value, this is shaping up as a similar case. With Mack my beef was always position value and the trickle down effect to the rest of the draft (who's already off our roster), with Mingo it was his rawness/project status, combined with his body/injury risk. Simply not good bets imho
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Vers, getting back to Mingo, we might be talking two somewhat different things. My observations aren't about him being too weak to be physical. I see him as simply not wanting to be physical.
I'm not writing the guy off. Way too soon for that. I simply think that his problems are far less about technique and more about desire.
As for his build, he is long and lean but I don't see a big frame. I don't believe he can put on much more weight, but I also don't believe he has to. With his natural acceleration and speed it just comes down to desire. If he ever decides to get tough he can be very good. Right now I see a guy who is flat-out afraid to get in there and mix it up. I sincerely doubt he'll ever be any good against the run but if he can disrupt that's far more important today.
Time will tell.
I completely agree. He hasn't looked as relentless and physical as he did on tape from the NCAA. He was gruesome with his hands in college. I was the Mingo pimp on the boards predraft so I'd like to think it's because of his hesitation and lack of confidence.
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Vers...for the life of me I don't understand your dislike of Ward. So you were correct on several disappointments. Usually you eat Crow by now but with Ward you are standing fast although that ship is sinking like the Titanic. You can take the greatest Safeties in the NFL in their best season and find mistakes. He is not perfect. His coverage is improving which is a big factor in a young starter. His purpose in this defense is making him cross the line of Good to Great. Which makes just about everyone baffled on you insisting in putting him in the class of a Weeden.
tab, I do admit when I am wrong. Maybe that should make you reconsider what I am saying? Perhaps I wasn't clear and this has become more of an argument than a true debate. If so, I apologize. Here is what I am saying:
--Ward is a decent player.
--He is good around the LOS.
--He knifes in and makes some great plays behind, at, or near the LOS.
--His coverage of the flat is pretty good.
--He has adequate speed.
--I understand coverages. He is often out of position.
--He is a questionable tackler in the open field. Ducks his head too much and then dives.
--He is not the guy you want covering TE's and backs, thus that job falls to Robertson...which is pretty tough for a LBer. [This is a very general statement and there are exceptions, but I am trying to save space.]
--I think he is vastly overrated. I would not be surprised if we let him walk, especially if he demands top dollar. That doesn't mean I think he stinks. It means that I think posters and some of these sites are overrating him.
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Lets face it Heckert made some darn good picks for us. Most of our DL as well as our entire starting DB unit...add Sheard.
I think too many posters are making this about Heckert. That is NOT my intent. Allow me to prove it:
Haden is now playing great. Sheard was a good pick. Taylor has really improved this year and was a decent pick. Skrine was an excellent choice. So was Winn. Cameron is looking to be an exceptional TE and I was wrong about him. Grecco was an awesome acquisition. Lava is a decent RG. Hughes is playing way better than I ever thought possible. Heckert made some good picks.
This comes down to the fact that I am not going to say a guy is playing like the best safety in football when my eyes are telling me something very different. I actually think that Gipson is playing quite a bit better than Ward, yet people rag on him. Btw-----wasn't Gipson a Heckert pick? It's not about Heckert. It's about a guy being overrated.
Oh, and I wasn't saying Ward was as bad as Weeden. I am saying that certain players have been overrated by posters and the press before. I don't fall into believing everything I read. I use it for information, but if my eyes tell me something different, they tell me something different. In my opinion, all three guys [and numerous others] have been overrated by the press and by posters. I am NOT saying that Ward sucks as bad as Weeden. Not even close. Ward is a functional starter in this league. He is a decent player. I am just saying he isn't a great player and that he has a few real weaknesses in his game.
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Cool response. Thanks for not making it personal. It's okay to disagree. Quote:
I'm not writing the guy off. Way too soon for that. I simply think that his problems are far less about technique and more about desire.
I don't see the lack of desire, but I could be wrong about that. I would agree that it appears that he doesn't play w/a sense of urgency on every play.
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As for his build, he is long and lean but I don't see a big frame. I don't believe he can put on much more weight
I don't think he will put on a bunch of weight either. I was just referring to that guys who are rangy, you know, guys w/long muscles [if that is the right way to explain it?] tend to be stronger than guys who are bulkier and have bulging muscles. They surprise you w/their strength.
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If he ever decides to get tough he can be very good. Right now I see a guy who is flat-out afraid to get in there and mix it up. I sincerely doubt he'll ever be any good against the run but if he can disrupt that's far more important today.
I don't see him as being afraid. Never even entered my mind. I will start watching closer. I don't think he'll ever be great against the run either. I think he will be a pass rusher who will make some sensational plays against the run and be exposed on others. You know, like other great pass rushers. Guys like Matthews, Charles Haley, LT, Suggs, A. Smith, Ware, etc.
You're right. Time will tell. I am not very certain he will become a very good player for us. It's more of a feeling from flashes I have seen. You may very well be right and he'll end up another first round disappointment.
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I completely agree. He hasn't looked as relentless and physical as he did on tape from the NCAA. He was gruesome with his hands in college. I was the Mingo pimp on the boards predraft so I'd like to think it's because of his hesitation and lack of confidence.
I was/am a Mingo pimp too as I wanted him overall at #6. I think he'll get better as time goes on and I am certainly not writing him off just yet. His freakish speed and athleticsm (which can't be taught) is fun to watch and hopefully his technique (which can be taught) will improve as time goes on. I do agree with many on his issues thus far. The young man has a long way to go but I think he has the mental toughness and hope he has the work ethic to address on his shortcomings thus far.
The size thing does concern me, however. I'm sure he can add some weight but I hope it doesn't lessen his assets of speed and athleticsm too much.
Overall, I think he will improve.
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Heckert. It's about a guy being overrated. Yeah I get it know...Gipson was a UDFA - He is playing well and Horton has praised him.
Ward I don't disagree on what you see in negatives - I do however see it far less than you describe. I think you have this in the back of your mind so when you see it rear its ugly head (less n less as he progresses) it sticks in your mind maybe to an exaggerated degree. As for Over rated - just to let you know...I cannot predict what is going to happen 6 weeks from now but right now - He will be the PRO BOWL. A few more sacks and a couple more INTs he might even be named ALL PRO SS.
How can so many be wrong. And we are talking about his peers. Our defense is perfect for him...I'm sure your claim of Over rated might be relevant if we played a Cover Two I guess. I have seen his coverage get better this year.
But despite our differences I know you eat crow...and in this case I was rather confused.
Its nice that the positive stuff are coming up in results more than not...lol times are changing as we actually get talent.
JMHO
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This might be a case where you both, Tab and Vers, are correct.
I read both your view points on Ward. Every week I see both analysis. IMO, Ward is a risk taker and big hitter. He gets himself in trouble at times, but it also pays off too. A good example is Troy Polamalu. Troy is another who takes unnecessary risks looks good when it works thanks his FS when it does not. By the way, I'm not saying Ward is equal to Polamalu.
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jc http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_defense_has_b.htmlCleveland Browns defense has been the biggest disappointment this season: Terry Pluto CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Follow the money. Look at the draft. That tells you where the new front office of the Browns put its emphasis before the season. And it also reveals what side of the ball has been the biggest disappointment. For all the gnashing of teeth over the quarterback situation and the endless frustration about the offense -- you could sense that some of these problems were coming. That's because the dollars and the draft went to the defense. The front office correctly decided there were no big time quarterbacks in the 2013 draft. They also determined to spend very little free agent money on the offense. The one significant investment was Davone Bess, who was acquired in a draft-day deal from Miami. The Browns also gave him a new deal ($11.5 million over four years, $5.5 million guaranteed). Talk about dropping the ball, Bess has flopped. He's not even with the team. If passes were car keys, he always be looking for them in the parking lot because they keep slipping out of his hands. But Bess was it on offense. Brian Hoyer and Jason Campbell were signed as backup quarterbacks. Gary Barnidge was brought in as a reserve tight end,. You don't even want to talk about how they ignored running back situation. Who was the one draft pick for the offense? Garrett Gilkey, a tackle from Chardon State selected in the seventh round. Big bucks on defense When you look at a list of free agents who changed teams after last season, here's how it breaks down: 1. Mike Wallace, received $60 million ($30 million guaranteed) from Miami. 2. Greg Jennings received $45 million ($19 million guaranteed) from Minnesota. 3. Dashon Golden received $41 million ($22 million guaranteed) from Tampa Bay. 4. Paul Kruger received $40 million ($20 million guaranteed) from the Browns. Desmond Bryant received $34 million ($15 million guaranteed) from the Browns, and he ranks ninth on the list. This list also tells you how teams are seldom impacted when signing free agents who played elsewhere to huge contracts. Now, consider the following: 1. The Browns signed two of the top 10 free agents who switched teams last season. 2. They committed $74 million ($35 million guaranteed) to Bryant and Kruger. 3. Their first round pick was Barkevious Mingo, a defensive end converted to linebacker. 4. Their third round pick was Leon McFadden, a cornerback. 5. They only had five draft picks, but four were defensive players. Bang for the buck? Bryant was having a good year on the defensive line until he had a reoccurrence of a heart problem. He played 12 games. Bryant had what is considered a minor heart procedure and is supposed to be OK for next season. Bryant did have an occasion of an irregular heartbeat in the past, but it was not considered a problem. The 28-year-old had 3.5 sacks. He still leads the Browns with 32 "quarterback harassments," a stat kept by the coaches to indicate who is putting pressure on the quarterback. Kruger is second on the "quarterback harassment" list with 20. But his 4.5 sacks are down from 9.0 with Baltimore last season. He is a solid defender against the run, but never produced the major pressure on the quarterback. Mingo (5.0 sacks) has been very inconsistent, and has had trouble against the run. Early returns on third-rounder McFadden are disappointing. Consider this list of what players are paid this season. Actually, these are salary cap numbers, but they illustrate a point: 1. Joe Thomas, $11 million. 2. Joe Haden, $9.2 million. 3. Kruger, $8.2 million. 4. Bryant, $8.0 million. 5. Ahtyba Rubin, $7.6 million. 6. D'Qwell Jackson, $6.4 miliion. 7. Alex Mack, $5.0 million. 8. Barkevious Mingo, $2.9 million. So what is the point? Six of the eight highest pair players are on defense -- the only offensive players on the list are Thomas and Mack, two linemen. Bottom line? While the Browns defense ranks No. 10 overall in yards allowed, that is deceiving. They are 23rd in points allowed, 30th in keeping teams out of the end zone when in the red zone. Ray Horton was given a lucrative four-year contract as defensive coordinator, and handed the keys to the car that was supposed to drive this team back to respectability. After a fast start, the defense stalled -- and now seems stuck in the same old funk that hits nearly every Browns team in December. Yes, the offense deserves criticism. When a team is 4-11, something went wrong on both sides of the ball. But if you really want to look at what let the Browns down -- it's the defense.
That starts with some of the decisions made by the front office in terms of players brought to Cleveland. It continues with the coaching staff, as the defense has turned worse over the course of the season.
And that may be the most disturbing aspect of this season.
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Well, it's abundantly clear, isn't it? Terry Pluto simply wants to bash the FO.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 12/27/13 11:02 AM.
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Think about it: the D was absolutely embarrassing losing games late vs JAX, NE and CHI. Our Offense played well enough and scored enough to win those games. The D was supposed to be the strength of this team and roster. We were promised to see improvements, instead we've seen regression. All that with probably one of the luckiest units in terms of injuries. Our DB was intact for most of the season until Owens went down, who was supposed to be supplanted by McFadden anyway. Our front 7 had some injuries, but we didn't have any season ending one's early on like so many other teams have had to deal with. It's simply incredibly disappointing.
We'd be 7-8 right now or even 8-7 as I think we would have beaten the Jets if we were 7-7 before that game. At some point, we need some kind of unit to carry this team and I'm not even lamenting "winning games", they flat out LOST them while leading. What a letdown.
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I will agree, the meltdowns, big plays given up at the most crucial times and etc, defense hasn't looked good which blows since it was the primary focus via draft and free agency.
However, the offense, IMO - is still the biggest disappointment for me when I reflect back onto this season. Blame surely can be spread all over too, even to special teams.
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You're such a man. And witty, too.
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A couple of things. You say Chicago, but the defense scored 14 of those points. The defense also did not play bad against New England.
I don't know..............we changed defenses. Almost everyone said it was going to take time to change. I hear things that "this particular stat is deceiving." LOL.............I heard the same thing before this year, except it was our poor numbers were deceiving.
I am not as concerned about the defense as you are. I think that they will be fine. I am more concerned w/the offense. I have ZERO problems w/what the FO did in regards to the defense this year.
Sometimes you complain about us spending money on the defense. Other times you complain because we did not spend enough money on the defense. Which is it?
Look at what happened to the defense after Bryant went out. He was the guy making the difference. Not Phil Taylor. Why no complaints about that draft pick?
I contend that once the offense is at least functional, as we were in the Bengal game w/Hoyer, the defense will also improve. Their lack of effort in the last few games concerns me way more than from a talent stand point.
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year one going from Jauron to Horton, it went better than I expected to be honest. I really thought the O would have to carry the D at least early on but the D played better early and then struggled down the stretch which was the opposite of what I was expecting. The lack of a pass rush was the dooming factor along with the injury to Bryant.
Sheard and Mingo were transitioning and I am willing to give them a pass on year one. Sheard I feel will be a consistent 10 didgit sack artist once he gets a better feel for the position. Mingo shows promise, although I think most now know why I had a 3rd round grade on him lol.
Skrine improved. Haden improved. Gipson improved. Ward had some terrific games but I expected more. Good year but he has more in him.
I feel we really do need a stud inside backer to solidify the middle. I thought DQ got himself in a bad position to often by lacking the aggression we needed from the position. If you wait and allow yourself to be blocked, bad things will happen.
This D has the potential for greatness and its easy to sit now and say well the D stunk it up but this was a bad ass Defense for much of the season. I think they wore down a bit and it cost us a few games especially late in games.
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I wondered about D fatigue, as well.
Injuries also contributed to the recent lack of production.
This is not the same squad that took the field in September.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Defense fatigue is a fantasy, at least as most use it.
If you are on defense, and you want to get off the field, make a play. If your offense is not making plays, then it is up to you to make plays to get off the field.
This defense gives up too many 80 and 90 yard drives that are 8-12 or so plays. Those have nothing to do with the offense. That is 100% on the defense. Our inability to get off the field on 3rd down is a major problem.
We average 28 minutes per game time of possession. 2 minutes per game is not some insurmountable amount of play to overcome. The fact that we are the worst team in the NFL in stopping opponents on 3rd down is more of a problem that anything our offense does.
Further, we have taken the ball away from the opposition only 19 times all year. That is 27th in the league if I counted right. Struggling teams get better by handling 3rd downs, and managing turnovers on both sides of the ball. We are bad in most regards.
Anyway, some defenses are great because they handle their business no matter what the offense does. The Ravens Super Bowl defense falls into this category, as well as Steelers defenses before Roethlisberger arrived. While those teams could run the ball, they struggled to pass the ball. It is a reverse of us. Anyway, their defenses were great regardless of how their offenses played. They got themselves off the field consistently. That is what I want to see our defense do. If the offense goes 3 and out, force the opponent to do the same .... don't give up an 80 yard, 12 play drive. Make a play, stop the opponent, (especially on some of the 3rd and longs we have forced teams into) and get off the field.
I agree that the offense can make life easier on the defense by holding onto the ball and scoring TDs .... but the defense also has to do their job even when the offense doesn't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Like you, I thought the defense would start slow and then get better as the year went along. I am disappointed that we got worse towards the end of the year. I think that may have to do w/the mind-set of the players rather than the scheme.
I agree w/almost everything you said except for your evaluation of Mingo. The guy is raw. He did not maintain outside containment on too many plays. What kills me is that Sheard did the same thing and the fans are all over Mingo for it, but never say a word about Sheard.
I think Mingo has much more ability than Sheard. That doesn't mean I don't like Sheard because I do. I remember arguing w/a few people before the season. I said Sheard was better suited for a 3-4 OLBer instead of a 4-3 DE. Heck, there were people on here saying that guys like him, Taylor, Reubin, Hughes, DQ, etc would all have to be traded or released.
I really think the biggest issue w/this team is its mind-set. They are mentally weak. They had a bit of success and did not handle it well. They then faced some adversity and certainly did not handle that well.
Until that changes, this team is going to continue to struggle. While some have been praying we lose out, I have been hoping we win. The culture has to change here. This group of players have accepted losing. We can have a ton of Pro Bowlers, but that doesn't mean a thing if your team accepts losing. The culture must change!!!
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Quote:
I really think the biggest issue w/this team is its mind-set. They are mentally weak. They had a bit of success and did not handle it well. They then faced some adversity and certainly did not handle that well.
Je'rod Cherry ...one of the best things going on Ckeveland sports radio agrees with this. So do I. I've been saying it for a long time now.
But where we differ is in the amount of blame you give to the players and the lack of blame you give to the head coach. Players will take on the attitude of their coach. Attitude reflects leadership. Chud performed this year as if he was told it was a "free year". The players played like that.
I am not saying by any means the players do not have culpability. They without a doubt do. But you and I are asking for a culture change. That's not the players job to change the culture. That starts with Haslam, Banner, and Chud.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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OverToad, we can simplify it. And stop throwing all the wordiness at it. He is at times a crappy tackler and misses vital tackles because he ignores some fundamentals. He can be a huge hitter, and I love the big banger tackles as much as everyone. But let's not pretend he gets a pass because of snappy explanations. Cannot be kinda dead or somewhat pregnant. You got the tackle or did not. He cannot kinda tackle. And games aren't kinda won and kinda lost. I would hope more concern for absolute results is adopted. We don't sound upset about crappy play, missed tackles, drops, and such. Hope we are "learning from our mistakes" because we could lead the NFL in some stuff after this season. I get mental toughness and saying "We will get the next one" after a bad play. But avoiding the repeat of a bad play, like by keeping your head up is a good thing as well. Maybe we might have improved more, won more. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I remember some of us--you and I included---having that discussion before Cherry ever mentioned it.
I put blame on the coach, Rish. A coach is certainly culpable when his team is not playing hard. That's huge in regards to evaluating coaches.
I actually like a lot of what Chud is doing. He brought in two high-profile, strong-minded coordinators. He turned both units over to these men. He is not intimidated by them. He does what a HC should do. I like how he has a plan in place for developing the young talent. I like how he makes players earn their positions rather than handing it to them because of their draft status or contract.
With that said, the fact that this team has quit late in the season bothers me. I almost always will blame the coach for that and Chud certainly deserves criticism for the team's lackluster performance late in the season.
On the other hand, I have a theory about the types of players we have. I think several are talented. I think they were high picks. I think they are front runners who have accepted losing.
Look at guys like Haden and Ward. How long have they been here? 4 years? How many games have they won in that time?
5 their first year.
4 their second year.
5 their third year.
4 or 5 this year.
I watch these guys and I don't see winners. I want to use the second Bengal game as an example. Campbell was the QB and the team had some hope again. We came off playing the Chiefs very tough and beating Baltimore to get us back in the race. We get a couple of picks and are up 13--0. These guys are on the sidelines celebrating like the game was over. That image disturbed me as it happened. They were not handling success very well.
Then, there are turnovers and poor special teams plays and the Bengals get right back in the game. Our guys have to deal w/adversity. And they failed miserably.
I was very interested to see how they would bounce back from that game. They laid an egg against Pittsburgh.
Rish, I could be dead wrong about this, but I really think that some of these guys on this roster--and I am talking about some of the high profile guys that most people love---are mentally weak. They don't handle success or adversity well at all.
So, I am willing to cut Chud a bit of slack. However, he is going to have to change the culture of this team. It's going to be tough to do, because if you start getting rid of players that the fans and media think are great, you are setting yourself up for ridicule. If you keep those guys, how do you convince them to change their work habits, their mind-set, the importance of being team leaders when they are already regarded as stars by most of the people that follow the team?
I don't know if it can be done.
I think we really need one guy to become a Ray Lewis type. No one will ever be that great of a leader, but someone comparable to him. A guy who makes those around him so much better, not because of his pre-game motivational speeches, but because of how well he plays on the field, how much time he studies the opponents, how hard he practices, and how he handles himself off the field in terms of keeping his body clean.
How do we get that guy? I don't know.
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That's odd. Because the exact same thing could have easily have been said about KC. A bunch of pro bowlers, but couldn't win.
Enter Alex Smith.
We saw Hoyer play. We saw the entire team elevate its play. I'm not saying Hoyer is the answer at QB. What I am saying is he played pretty well in his limited time.
With an elevation in the QB play, so too was the play of everyone else elevated on both sides of the ball. I believe we try too hard to analyze things. We saw a ton of evidence in how much better this "team" was when we had a QB who could execute.
I don't see trying to say the coach is bad or that the players are quitters jives with anything we saw when we had good QB play. The leader on the field is the QB. When the leader fails, the troops are sure to follow.
You can find rare exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, that is the rule.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I really think the biggest issue w/this team is its mind-set. They are mentally weak. They had a bit of success and did not handle it well. They then faced some adversity and certainly did not handle that well.
Until that changes, this team is going to continue to struggle. While some have been praying we lose out, I have been hoping we win. The culture has to change here. This group of players have accepted losing. We can have a ton of Pro Bowlers, but that doesn't mean a thing if your team accepts losing. The culture must change!!! [/quote
That is spot on!!!! One of the best posts I have ever read on here. I agree that this team needs to be mentally tougher. Could it be a result of the overall team youth? Not having a true QB as the leader that the other 52 players believe in? Or just the fact the players on this team have not learned how to win?
Too many games there have been just dumb plays made that keeps this team from winning. Examples;
1) The 2 blocked punts, Interception, and fumble all in deep in their own territory vs the Bengals during the 2nd quarter of a huge game that was the ultimate turning oint for this team during the 2013 season.
2) Snapping a ball over the QB's head with the lead in a game against the Jags. The defense is getting blamed for this loss because of the last drive but without 2 interceptions and that bad snap this game would not even be in doubt at that point.
3) No one really making an effort going for the on side kick vs New England when all they needed was possession to win tha game.
4) The muffed punt with all of the momentum vs the Chiefs.
When I watch this team play it sems like they are always battling 2 opponents the other team and theirselves. The game could become easier if they found a way to eliminate one of those opponents.
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Quote:
On the other hand, I have a theory about the types of players we have. I think several are talented. I think they were high picks. I think they are front runners who have accepted losing.
Look at guys like Haden and Ward. How long have they been here? 4 years? How many games have they won in that time?
5 their first year.
4 their second year.
5 their third year.
4 or 5 this year.
I watch these guys and I don't see winners. I want to use the second Bengal game as an example. Campbell was the QB and the team had some hope again. We came off playing the Chiefs very tough and beating Baltimore to get us back in the race. We get a couple of picks and are up 13--0. These guys are on the sidelines celebrating like the game was over. That image disturbed me as it happened. They were not handling success very well.
Then, there are turnovers and poor special teams plays and the Bengals get right back in the game. Our guys have to deal w/adversity. And they failed miserably.
I was very interested to see how they would bounce back from that game. They laid an egg against Pittsburgh.
Rish, I could be dead wrong about this, but I really think that some of these guys on this roster--and I am talking about some of the high profile guys that most people love---are mentally weak. They don't handle success or adversity well at all.
So, I am willing to cut Chud a bit of slack. However, he is going to have to change the culture of this team. It's going to be tough to do, because if you start getting rid of players that the fans and media think are great, you are setting yourself up for ridicule. If you keep those guys, how do you convince them to change their work habits, their mind-set, the importance of being team leaders when they are already regarded as stars by most of the people that follow the team?
I don't know if it can be done.
I think we really need one guy to become a Ray Lewis type. No one will ever be that great of a leader, but someone comparable to him. A guy who makes those around him so much better, not because of his pre-game motivational speeches, but because of how well he plays on the field, how much time he studies the opponents, how hard he practices, and how he handles himself off the field in terms of keeping his body clean.
How do we get that guy? I don't know.
Vers, you already know the answer. You change the culture adding character and talent. People like Ward and Haden are plenty good, but competition elevates their game. People ask why it takes Browns longer than other teams. Players have grown accustom to the country club.
Whatever side of the fence you are on with Heckert it doesn't matter. He accomplished one important aspect he filled the roster with playable talent. Across the board every position has a reasonable player. Banner/Lombardi need to continue building like they built the DL. Belichick has done this everywhere improve the bottom of the roster equally as hard as the starters. We seen this from Banner/Lombardi. They constantly bring in players throughout the season. You get a couple weeks if you bring nothing...next man up. Chud needs to continue driving...next man up. I feel he has started this already. Compare this QB carousel to 2009. At least this season every game was watchable. Chud needs improving, but for his first year, I think he did an acceptable job.
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I think our problem more than anything is a lack of an identity. Our ineffectiveness running the football really has a lot to do with our inconsistency on offense. Yeah, three starting QB's in a year has more to do with it, but that's a resource all three guys did not have at their disposal when they played. Instead, it was long down and distances and no confidence picking up short yardage conversions (and certainly nothing dynamic on the checkdowns).
There needs to be a significant improvement to our ground attack for us to make a KC-esque leap next year.
Sorry to get off track. The defense...
Their success next year hinges on the health of Bryant (huge), Mingo's next step (can he develop that second move and become a 10+ sack guy), and what we do at ILB- hopefully pair a thumper with DQ.
If we can find a bargain in the secondary to bolster that group, I'd welcome it. But I would throw $20+ million for a number two corner with how surprisingly well I saw screen play the four games I saw this year. It just wouldn't be my highest priority. I would pay that for an above-average starting FS, though.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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I am not as concerned about the defense as you are. I think that they will be fine. I am more concerned w/the offense. I have ZERO problems w/what the FO did in regards to the defense this year.
I'm more concerned with the Offense too, but the needs there are well defined. We have 4 PB players on Offense, a couple of "ok" players in Greco and Schwartz (still have some hope for Pinkston who looked good when he was in) and the rest is bad and needs fixed. We all know and see that, no arguing.
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Sometimes you complain about us spending money on the defense. Other times you complain because we did not spend enough money on the defense. Which is it?
Both. Kruger and Mingo haven't played up to their contracts yet, so they've been bad value deals so far. If Bryant's health concerns come up again or limit his snaps, than his 15mil guaranteed will look bad too and mind you, I LOVED both signings, but they're not looking good from a bang for buck standpoint. This season it didn't matter as we had enough cap space, but going forward those contracts can become problems, if they don't produce more. Same goes for DQ's contract and Bess' on Offense btw, so they're not alone.
As for not spending enough: Well, our biggest problem areas have been ILB, CB2 and FS. We got beat by RBs in the pass game (ILB), by no name WR2 (CB2) and lacked big play, closing game play from the back end (FS). Exactly the positions I wanted us to do more and that was my concern at the start of the season too. They put all eggs into the pass rush basket and that "plan" has simply failed when it mattered most (4th Qtr leads) and our problem areas have been exposed because of it.
So, the problem I have with the D, or better: with the perception of our D, is that "seemingly" everyone is pretty much "ok" with our starters. The only consensus seems to be that we need another ILB next to DQ, that's it. I simply disagree here and point to the bottom line stats which indicate that there are more problems on this D that need fixed. Both off the field (coaching) as on the field (players).
I think the "psychological" card is overplayed by you, other posters and Cherry. Too easy to blame it all on some obscure lack of "intestinal fortitude". In my mind it's just a shutdown argument, which I don't consider to be very believable, especially not as THE monocausal one. Too easy a way out and it deflects from more on-hand problems punting it into the obscure, structurally similar to a conspiracy theory. I do not only think it is wrong, I also think it's a dangerous way of approaching the problems, but I can agree to disagree here. I DO think it played a role, especially late in the season, but I do think it's more of a secondary problem that came up because of other, constantly reoccurring problems prior to it imho
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Look at what happened to the defense after Bryant went out. He was the guy making the difference. Not Phil Taylor. Why no complaints about that draft pick?
I was actually one of the first to complain about Taylor's disappearing act a couple of games ago. His lack of consistency and the coach's decision to only play him 40-50% of the snaps are both disappointing and strange
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I contend that once the offense is at least functional, as we were in the Bengal game w/Hoyer, the defense will also improve. Their lack of effort in the last few games concerns me way more than from a talent stand point.
That's another argument that I just have a hard time buying. Hoyer also played against the Vikings and our D allowed a lot of points against a rather bad Offense. Our D played a great game, their best of the season, against the Bengals and Hoyer happened to be the QB. He put up 17p, far from a great game himself. The D simply won and sealed that game off and he managed it. Good jobs by both, but to construct a causation based on one game is way off in my opinion.
A lot of revisionist history going on when it comes to Hoyer and his influence on the team. That's why I mock him as "Saint Hoyer", because some posters act as if he's some kind if salvation. He also started the Bills game and the "Hoyer inspired D" gave up quick 10p, but I guess those two drives and the 30+ points vs the Vikings were because of the lack of "intestinal fortitude" on the D? What was it there? To be totally honest, I consider it to be more "make believe" than anything close to an argument that has any legs. We were as inconsistent on D WITH Hoyer as without him, that's what I saw...
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DjangoBrown, all good arguments. One thing you did not include is the increase in the number of plays by opposing teams second half of the season. This weighs on defenses noted by the decline in play in second half of games. Improvement on offense will put less strain on the defense.
On your argument with Mingo not making the grade, I think your expectations maybe set a little high. Look at prior early drafted pass rushers who were added to sub-par teams. A perfect example Robert Quinn, St. Louis. Granted he plays DE, but it took him until his 3rd year before fruit was found. Pass rusher is not a position similar to a RB more similar to WR it takes a couple of years. These guys do play against the A-player LT.
As for Krueger, it was noted he played better when Suggs returned last year. He also plays LOLB which is normally double teamed RT and TE. Not an excuse simply making a point. I believe as Mingo improves offenses will switch the TE helping the LT. This is where Krueger's numbers will improve. Krueger does play well against the run.
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DjangoBrown, all good arguments. One thing you did not include is the increase in the number of plays by opposing teams second half of the season. This weighs on defenses noted by the decline in play in second half of games. Improvement on offense will put less strain on the defense.
Let's examine this, shall we?......
# of plays by the opponent, per week:
Game 1: 65
Game 2: 71
Game 3: 79
Game 4: 64
Game 5: 75
Game 6: 72
Game 7: 66
Game 8: 71
Game 9: 67
Game 10: 59
Game 11: 68
Game 12: 72
Game 13: 77
Game 14: 64
Game 15: 76
Now I don't see any enormous change in the number of plays run by the opponent. Some weeks go up slightly, and some down slightly, but all fall within the same general range.
Further, why has the defense been on the field? Because they cannot, and do not, get themselves off the field. We have the worst 3rd down defense in the NFL. It was improved somewhat in the middle of the season, then slid back into the toilet.
Let's look at the Jets game as far as what happened on defense:
1st drive: 6 plays, 18 yards, turned over on downs
2nd drive: 8 plays, 28 yards, punt
3rd drive: 6 plays 17 yards, opunt.
Is the defense "tired" at this point?
The next drive is a 13 play, 80 yards drive in 5:29. This is followed up with a 79 yard, 5 play drive for a FG to tie the game. This final drive of the 1st half was a staggering 79 yards in only 34 seconds.
On to the 2nd half:
1st drive: 3 plays, 9 yards, punt. Good.
2nd drive: 6 plays, 30 yards, missed FG try.
3rd drive: 14 plays, 81 yards, TD
4th drive: 14 plays, 80 yards, TD
5th drive: end of game.
Sorry, but if the defense is going to wear out over the course of 4 2nd half drives, then there is no hope for them. The defense allowed scoring drives, in this game, to an awful Jets offense, of 80, 79, 81, and 80 yards. I bet the Jets haven't had 4 drives like that in any game prior to playing us.
That's not our offense. That is right on the shoulders of the defense.
This defense was supposed to be the strength of the team. If your own offense is not performing well, then you have to step it up and get yourself off the field one more time them the opposing defense can. That is what great defenses do. Poor defenses make excuses, and whine about the offense putting them in bad positions. Great defenses step up in any circumstance, and stiffen. Our defense is the worst at allowing red zone TDs. That has nothing to do with our offense. That is 100% on them.
The simple fact is that our defense got worse as the year went along. That is on them, not our offense.
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Vers...for the life of me I don't understand your dislike of Ward.
I do ... this is the NFL in 2013 ... your safeties most IMPORTANT JOB TODAY is vs the pass .... Ward is WELL BELOW AVERAGE AT THAT .... therefore IMO he is not an asset no matter how good he is at HIS SECONDARY DUTY and that would be stopping the run ...
take a look at even our division .... the Bungles and Rats are now both pass happy teams ... the Stilers aren't/weren't far behind ... TWO OF THE 5 PRO BOWL RECIEVERS ARE FROM OUR DIVISION ... not even our division is 3 yards and a cloud of dust ...
and I personally think ward is not all that against the run ... he makes a lot of good plays ... he also allows a lot of bigger plays than they should be cause he takes himself out of position trying to make that good play way to often .... everyone toots his horn for the good plays .. it seems NO ONE MENTIONS the bad plays ...
IMO he has NO INSTINCTS what so ever ... that pass play to Vareen in the NE game is all the proof u should need on that one ...
bad bad tackler (and I don't wanna hear the BS on the Gresham miss ... he had no probs going low on Gronk did he??? ... the rules are definelty horrible and leave DB's, especially safeties in a bad spot ... but that one is just an excuse as hes been doing that BS since day 1 ... ) .... he uses just his shoulder way to often and he whiffs more than any safety I've ever seen ...
not a big fan of TJ .. just not ..
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YTownBrownsFan
Offense play count vs. Opponent:
1 - 65 to 72 Loss
2 - 62 to 71 Loss
3 - 75 to 79 Win
4 - 64 to 71 Win
5 - 75 to 65 Win
6. 66 to 72 Loss
7. 68 to 66 Loss
8. 52 to 71 Loss
9. 68 to 67 Win
10. 79 to 59 Loss
11. 68 to 73 Loss
12. 73 to 72 Loss
13. 70 to 77 Loss
14. 56 to 64 Loss
15. 64 to 76 Loss
With the exception of a few, it looks to me opponents reach the 70 play mark more than Cleveland. First half you see a bigger differential. Results wear down the defense over the whole season.
I am not stating this is the whole picture. I was making a point offense can chip-in helping the defense.
Watching Cleveland it seems like every game opposing teams have two big drives the first and last. Browns fail on both sides of the ball coming out ready to play. Coaching? Players not mentally in the game?
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Meh, I looked those up, but really, play counts count for very little overall.
If the opponent runs 10 plays and winds up punting, and then we throw a 95 yard TD pas to Gordon, which team got the better of the exchange?
All by itself, one such series by each team could badly distort the number of plays for each team.
Further, the defense has started giving up long drives of late. Long drives with lots of plays in many cases. We gave up 4 scoring drives of roughly 80 yards each against the Jets. Those drives were 24 of the 34 points we allowed. The defense can't blame the offense for that. If you allow the opponent 4 80 yards scoring drives, and the opposing QB isn't someone like Manning or Brady, then you, as a defense, have failed. Sorry, but that's a fact.
The defense has broken down inside the red zone repeatedly. Sometimes the special teams and/or offense have put them in a bad position. That happens to all teams. Great defenses overcome, or at least hold the opponent to a FG try. We allow a higher percentage of opponent rtrips into the red zone to end in TDs than any other defense. That has to change.
There are too many excuses being made for the defense. The offense also has to improve, but the defense has to own up to its own shortcomings and improve as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Posts: 55,499 |
That's a pretty good post, but while you may have a hard time buying my arguments, I also have a hard time buying your arguments.
See, I have a hard time understanding how anyone could expect the new FO to fix all the problems this franchise has in one year.
I think they made some good moves. I think they made some bad moves. Overall, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. Not asking for you--or anyone--to agree. That's just the way I see it.
FYI: I am not one of those people saying Hoyer is the answer. You took my reply out of context. Pit is the one preaching that nonsense about Hoyer. I say his body of work is too small to make an accurate evaluation. My point was that when we did have competent QB play, the defense also played better.
I have to say this. I think you have some knowledge, but it's so hard to take you seriously when all you do is point out the negatives. You come across as wanting to be right at all costs. You come across as wanting to perceived as being right rather than the truth being told.
I think it would be great if you would become a bit more secure w/yourself and not worry so much about the perceptions of other posters and just post your football thoughts. That probably sounds confrontational and insulting, but I really don't mean it that way. Again, I think you do have some good insights in regards to football. Think about it, man. It's a freaking message board. Who really gives a rat's butt what other people on here think?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Bro, Ward is so overrated.
I actually posted a the responsibilities of a SS and the responsibilities of players in coverages for different positions in a Game Day thread. Obviously, almost every poster ignored those posts.
I understand coverages. I coached the game. I played the game. I scouted the game. I know when guys blow coverages. Very few people want to hear it. Instead, they watch a few dynamic plays and say the guy should be in the Pro Bowl.
His tackling is hit and miss. He makes some great tackles. However, he whiffs a lot. He ducks his head way too much. He rarely wraps. I even saw him take bad angles and jog in this past game.
I would have no problem if we let him walk. He's functional, but he is not a top 5 safety in the NFL.
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