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Quote:
So that's less than a 50% success rate.
Also, of your QBs in the playoffs, 7 of the 12 were picked 18th or less.
So what is the % success rate on that then? Of all the QBs selected 18th or less in the last 15 years, 7 of them are in the playoffs.. is that number approaching 50%? or is it approaching 2%? 
yebat' Putin
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Practice Squad
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Thank you for the correction. You are right about Campbell. He is the exceptional case of a first round pick screwed up by his original team (4 OCs in 4 years IIRC), that bounced around long enough to develop into a serviceable backup type without getting seriously injured or an inflated sense of self (smart enough to accept a smaller paycheck to keep receiving paychecks) and end up out of football.
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Quote:
I guess that depends. RG3 had a great rookie year and now a bad second year.
Some would say "bad second year" is an understatement..
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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#GMSTRONG
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It's funny how people use terminology.
If you like the guy, it's a "sophomore slump." If you dislike the guy, it's "defenses have caught up to him."
If you like the guy, it's "he's a rookie and going through growing pains." If you don't like the guy, "he's a bust."
If you like the guy, it's "his supporting cast is the worst in football." If you don't like the guy, it's "this team is talented, they just need a QB."
Some would say it's just a matter of semantics.
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In this case, and I am taking a wild guess because I haven't watched him at all this year, I'd guess that the problem stems from his injury last year.
The guy was never a pocket passer type QB. He made his chops and gained his "elite" effectiveness on his ability to run and to force defenses to respect that he might do so at any time. On top of that, like Vick, he has a hair-triggered cannon that can "flick" the ball down field.
The problems begin when he can no longer rely on running away from defenses and has to stand in there longer. If he loses some of that superior speed and escapability - even a little - defenses can keep up with him, and now they just need to cover and rush. That will lead to a lot of pressures, sacks, hurries, and mistakes.
Now, also add in that defensive coordinators almost certainly invested time in the off-season adopting new ways to deal with the spread option threat - so they aren't as vulnerable as they were, and his effectiveness is even further reduced.
Take a look at the rest of the NFL.... none of the Option/Running QB's are league leaders. They're all middle-of-the-road. Only the guys that also take care of the football are on winning teams.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Since you're assertion is incorrect is it now, not funny?
Just because I used an alternate way of saying what Damon was, doesn't mean I like RG3.
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I wasn't talking about you, Tulsa.
They are just phrases I have heard over the years to describe QBs. Heck the qb who kept popping into my mind was Timid.
Relax.
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I've heard it more with receivers than QB's.
I assure you, I'm quite relaxed.
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same goes for Carlos Hyde, just over rated.
How is Carlos Hyde over rated? He had the second highest yards per carry in the country. The only guy ahead of him, Melvin Gordon, weighs at least 30 pounds less than him. He's a 235 RB that averaged almost 8 yards a carry. Every RB that outrushed him this year had at least 70 more carries, besides Gordon. He was 6th in yards per game.
Hyde is consistently rated between the 2-4 rounds by the majority of Draft sites. He also reportedly ran a 4.45 40 yard dash at 235.
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Toad:
Totally agree with your take on Manziel. I have been all over the board basically making the same points.
In my opinion the pro Manziel folks are looking at what Manziel did in college and are expecting the same results in the pros. That is unrealistic.
=====================================================
"The ability to escape without getting popped in college won't translate as well to the pro's, where he's going to get crushed. Often. 'Berger can take that punishment. Guys like Vick, Griffin, and Manziel can't. He also has a horrific habit of carrying the ball away from his body. That stuff won't fly in the NFL.
I'm not even going to talk about his mental state, other than to say the guy has had very public struggles with success, so how is he going to handle the failure of the NFL? "
=======================================================
Is it that Browns fans are so desperate for a splash? Some savior to lift the team up off the canvas that they ignore some cold hard facts? They do not want to look at mental makeup, the skeleton in the closet.
Manziel was a great college quarterback. Fun to watch. However, that does not make him a great pro prospect for every team.
When you look at where the Browns are at as a team and the coming changes that have to take place Manziel in Cleveland does not seem to be a good fit.
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In my opinion the pro Manziel folks are looking at what Manziel did in college and are expecting the same results in the pros. Sorry that's a load of crap and an insult to my intelligence...but thank you for laying out my argument 
I mean in a sense first off EVERY PROSPECT are looking at what they did in college and expecting the same results in the pros. But you are talking about Stats am I right?
Here is what I look at and why...Lets take Lienhart for an example.
When he was in college he was the sure thing and amazing prospect.
When you watch his games he had an amazing OL where he had a pocket with not even a breath on him for 5 seconds...EVERY PASS PLAY...he had talented weapons with those 5 seconds where he's hitting WRs with 5yardrs of Window...so he is totally miss judged in evaluations.
What I liked about Manziel is he didn't have that Goliath team over matching all their opponents actually man for man they were the underdogs all they had better than other teams was Manziel and Matthews which does not a pocket make.
Manziel had the short time span in where his pocket would break down. Not by the LT but from the right and from the bottom of the pocket they were horrible.
I liked the way he went to his left and was accurate. Again cause Matthews was consistent and he knew where that DE/OLB was...
He had to move for his pocket a lot of these QBs transitioning from college to the NFL did not have to. HE DID.
I liked his footwork outside of his throwing off the back foot which got over in college it won't in the NFL. I liked the way when he did move around and scramble he always had his head up and would see WR downfield making plays. That is a virtue that is hard to teach. He has that.
He is very accurate on his 10+ routes he is not a dink n dunk guy. He can throw from the pocket as well as on the run...he can throw going left as well as right. Will he be asked to do this in the NFL at some time or another yes. Will he be successful in most cases YES...but he cannot be careless.
Just for debate sakes you cannot poo poo my opinion one stroke of the brush by making that statement actually it just might be you who are doing that. Cause I don't think we will be as over matched a team as he had in college which most of these other teams/QBs had.
Its a tough evaluation no matter who you or I think is good. But don't make your opinion MORE VALUABLE by stating that I'm doing it all wrong...
JMHO 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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When you look at where the Browns are at as a team and the coming changes that have to take place Manziel in Cleveland does not seem to be a good fit.
We have no idea of what "the coming changes" are.
And every team needs a QB.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Third rounder.
My thoughts exactly.
While I'm usually disappointed with our picks, there have been two selections that made me throw something and yell. Quinn was one, Weeden the other.
Manziel would be the third.
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Talk to me after the combine.
3rd rounder?
...please
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Quote:
Quote:
Third rounder.
My thoughts exactly.
While I'm usually disappointed with our picks, there have been two selections that made me throw something and yell. Quinn was one, Weeden the other.
Manziel would be the third.
Yeah, but when you mention "third" I can only think Frye and McCoy. 
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Quote:
Quote:
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Third rounder.
My thoughts exactly.
While I'm usually disappointed with our picks, there have been two selections that made me throw something and yell. Quinn was one, Weeden the other.
Manziel would be the third.
Yeah, but when you mention "third" I can only think Frye and McCoy.
Yeah mean two guys that, had they been given more time to sit and learn probably would have done a lot better in their time as a starter?
Yeah, sounds like Manziel..
(Note: I said better, not good. Frye was a career backup, McCoy probably is.)
Last edited by ThatGuy; 01/12/14 11:29 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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In my opinion the pro Manziel folks are looking at what Manziel did in college and are expecting the same results in the pros.
Sorry that's a load of crap and an insult to my intelligence...but thank you for laying out my argument
========================================================
"In my opinion". Sorry you take that as an insult. I was replying to Toad. Not to anyone else specifically.
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"But you are talking about Stats am I right? "
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No, I am not talking about any statistic.
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"They do not want to look at his mental makeup, the skeleton in the closet."
=======================================================
If you want to include yourself; so be it.
There has been enough published about Manziel outside the lines. Interpret that as you like. I am not the only person to question Manziel's mental maturity and his ability to handle success and adversity.
======================================================
"Its a tough evaluation no matter who you or I think is good. But don't make your opinion MORE VALUABLE by stating that I'm doing it all wrong..."
======================================================
Really, I have no idea where you are coming from on this?
This is all opinion. Maybe I"m wrong but I do not believe that I ever stated that my opinion was "more valuable" than yours or anyone elses. Given in this case that I was replying to Toad in agreement with what he wrote.
You are not alone in your opinion of Manziel.
I question why Manizel's mental make-up is ignored by his supporters.
When Vick came to Atlanta (where I live) it was clear to everyone in a short period of time that Vick had other things on his mind than football. He was the last person to practice and the first to leave.
Manziel's "maturity" has been questioned by his father.
===============================================
"When he's put to the measurables he's going to come in somewhere around 6' 200, where his frame isn't nearly that of Wilson. The ability to escape without getting popped in college won't translate as well to the pro's, where he's going to get crushed. Often. 'Berger can take that punishment. Guys like Vick, Griffin, and Manziel can't. He also has a horrific habit of carrying the ball away from his body. That stuff won't fly in the NFL. "
======================================================
On the field I agree with Toad's opinion.
In the end I just believe there are too many questions about Manziel and to much risk. If he is ranked on the Browns draft board as a late first rounder or early second than do not reach for him with the fourth pick.
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I think Nick Saban would disagree with you.
Stats? I don't think we're talking about stats. Heck with stats.
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I don't think they would or will reach for him. I think Johnny will be near the top of almost every teams draft board.
Lets put it this way...if we don't draft him at #4, somebody else will very soon after. That is assuming he isn't drafted before we have a chance. I don't see much of a chance he falls to the bottom of the 1st round or in to the 2nd round.
Again, assuming nothing happens between now and the draft.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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There is absolutely zero chance he slides past the Vikings if we pass on him, which IMO would be a mistake.
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Quote:
"When he's put to the measurables he's going to come in somewhere around 6' 200, where his frame isn't nearly that of Wilson.
What does that mean? Wilson's 5'11" 205 is heavier than Manziel's 6' 205? Does Wilson have thicker bones? Stronger ligaments?
Quote:
In the end I just believe there are too many questions about Manziel and to much risk.
I say this with the caveat that Hoyer is still the big unknonw.. if we come out of this draft without a viable starting QB, there is little risk.. we will likely win 4-6 games again next year... very little risk we will win more than that without much improved QB play.. even if we have Evans or Watkins or Clowney..
yebat' Putin
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Talk to me after the combine.
3rd rounder?
...please
I'm not saying he will go in the third (and I highly doubt Toad is, either).
I'm saying I wouldn't take him before that point.
The team that takes him in the first (and it will happen) will more than likely end up regretting doing so.
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Johnny Football is...
very high risk
potential very high reward
he's a gamble
what if we have no choice but to roll the dice?
or... wait till next year?
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Johnny Football is...
very high risk
potential very high reward
he's a gamble
what if we have no choice but to roll the dice?
or... wait till next year?
Another guaranteed losing season or a chance to take a High reward QB. How is this even a question? If it were me I'd take Manziel, if he sucks, we take another QB next year and repeat until we get someone who can play. QB is that important.
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As stated before
I have absolutely no problem with trading out of #4 for picks.
Keeping Hoyer and Campbell
Tanking next season.
Taking our shot at a QB next year, if Bridgewater doesn't come to us for no more than our first two picks this year.
But, there are some guys who are emotional about how we must, must, get a QB this year or else! Even if one doesn't exist.
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haven't we been tanking every season since 2007?
i for one am sick of always having to wait to next year.
there is 2 QB's that can turn our crap franchise around. thats manziel and teddy
this draft will be a disappointment if neither is on our team come May.
Last edited by Swish; 01/13/14 02:38 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
haven't we been tanking every season since 2007?
i for one am sick of always having to wait to next year.
there is 2 QB's that can turn our crap franchise around. thats manziel and teddy
this draft will be a disappointment if neither is on our team come May.
Agreed. Another losing season because Manziel is considered a "risk".
I'll never agree to losing and "waiting for next year". If Clowney fell to us, that means Manziel, Bortles and Bridgewater are off the board and that's only scenario I see us going in any other direction.
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Quote:
Quote:
haven't we been tanking every season since 2007?
i for one am sick of always having to wait to next year.
there is 2 QB's that can turn our crap franchise around. thats manziel and teddy
this draft will be a disappointment if neither is on our team come May.
Agreed. Another losing season because Manziel is considered a "risk".
I'll never agree to losing and "waiting for next year". If Clowney fell to us, that means Manziel, Bortles and Bridgewater are off the board and that's only scenario I see us going in any other direction.
I agree with that. I would still be upset if we didn't at least make a reasonable effort to move up into #2.. if the asking price is a kings ransom and we don't match it, like with RGIII, I'll be ok with that.. but make a reasonable offer...
yebat' Putin
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FYI
Report: Cleveland Browns high on Johnny Manziel
By Chase Goodbread
College Football 24/7 writer
Published: Jan. 13, 2014 at 10:29 a.m.
Are the Cleveland Browns smoke-screening their draft plans four months in advance? Or will they put the club's future in the hands of a new coach, only to put that coach's future in the hands of Johnny Manziel.
For the second time in a month, a report has surfaced indicating the club has a strong interest in drafting the dynamic Texas A&M star who is turning pro with two years of college eligibility remaining, and that its coaching hire may be made with that in mind. This time, it's cbssports.com reporting the interest. A couple weeks ago, Sports Illustrated's Peter King wrote something along the same lines.
On Sunday, NFL Media insider Ian Rapoport shot down another aspect of the cbssports.com report, however: That Auburn coach Gus Malzahn remains a candidate for the coaching job. With his read-option based offense, of course, Malzahn would have figured to be an intriguing fit for Manziel.
But any coach who ends up overseeing Manziel's development will have to change some things.
If it's a coach rooted in the traditional pro-style offense, he'll have to install some offensive elements that cater to Manziel's skill set, be it more shotgun, more rollouts, or even some occasional zone-read option. If it's a coach more open to the zone-read scheme, care will have to be taken not to expose Manziel to too much physical punishment.
Either way, it looks as though the Browns might be zeroing in on Johnny Football
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I don't doubt for a second that we are. 
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At least if we draft Manziel we will get a Monday night game. And then ESPN will be disappointed when Hoyer the Destroyer is the starter.
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I used to be a guy that was all about waiting until next year. The problem that no one seems to mention is our players are fed up. We need to win now or we will lose what core we have and well never been a contender.
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Another problem is How will Manziel react to riding the bench for a while as Hoyer gets his shot?
I just don't think his game will translate to the NFL, and also don't think his style will stand up to NFL punishment.
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I think the FO is getting things a bit out of order... again. You don't hire a coach based on the QB you plan to draft, you hire a guy you think is a good coach and then give him input into the draft...
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Quote:
At least if we draft Manziel we will get a Monday night game. And then ESPN will be disappointed when Hoyer the Destroyer is the starter.
also, NFLN will be wanting him for our Thursday game. Potential QB storylines (outside our division):
Manziel vs.
Home
Bridgewater (Houston)
Luck
Brees
Away
Bortles (JAX)
Ryan
Cam
#gmstrong
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Makes absolutely no sense to keep leaking this to the media unless, it's just not true.
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Actually BpG it does make some sense.
If the FO really has Teddy earmarked, then trying to lead everybody on that we are looking at Mr. Football makes "NFL Draft sense."
The FO knows that we can't afford a swap of firsts and two additional firsts. If the Texans actually made him available, that is certainly going to be their starting price.
So, smokescreening Johnny is a good bluff.
If, for some reason, the Texans decide the #4 pick, the twenty whatever pick, and ??? is preferable to Bridgewater, then... we get Teddy which most of this board seems to want.
I can't see Banner showing his cards in January.
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That's what I'm saying. We played it so close to the vest last year. Everyone thought we wanted Geno Smith or Millner and we calmly took Mingo. Doesn't make sense that we have all these leaks now.
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Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 The Manziel tipping point
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