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Maybe not, but he still goes near the top, so somebody sees something you aren't.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I agree with you.
I haven't followed a ton of college football, but I have said all along that I don't want a guy who takes plays off, sits out with minor injuries, and who just doesn't appear to love the game.
Clowney seems to want the things (money, fame) that football can give him more than he wants to be a great football player. I just don't see that passion to be the best in him, and that kind of guy almost always, and badly, disappoints.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Maybe not, but he still goes near the top, so somebody sees something you aren't.
They see a guy who is 6'6 and runs a 4.4 that plays DE. Hell, in truth he could play any position he wants to.
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Maybe not, but he still goes near the top, so somebody sees something you aren't.
I see the physical talent and I understand that but you can't trust players who mail it in under any circumstance. Any other player in the country has to PROVE his worth, this guy gets to mail it in after an average season and go #1?
Does not compute.
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If I were Clowney, I would've sat the year out.
He still would've gone in the top ten, maybe top five.
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If I were Clowney, I would've sat the year out.
He still would've gone in the top ten, maybe top five.
I guess that's my point. If you love the game they couldn't pry you away, much less sit out for a year banking on a contract.
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J/C
I saw on the ESPN ticker yesterday that the Browns are willing to trade up to draft Manziel. In my opinion, that would be the worst case scenario.
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J/C
I saw on the ESPN ticker yesterday that the Browns are willing to trade up to draft Manziel. In my opinion, that would be the worst case scenario.
Worst case scenario is being at 4 and all the QB's are gone. So I do not agree.
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J/C
I saw on the ESPN ticker yesterday that the Browns are willing to trade up to draft Manziel. In my opinion, that would be the worst case scenario.
Worst case scenario is being at 4 and all the QB's are gone. So I do not agree.
I don't think Manziel is worth a 1st round pick. So, if he's gone, I think it's a blessing. We could get a real weapon like Sammy Watkins at that spot and take a decent QB in the 2nd or 3rd round and avoid wasting a top 5 pick on another bad QB prospect. If we can't get Bridgewater or Bortles, I want Watkins at #4, no matter what other QBs are still available.
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I don't see how that report can be true. The guy hasn't done the combine, he hasn't sat down with officials, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A COACH!
Sounds like ESPN just doing their usual garbage recycle.
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Drafting WRs and a TE high has made us the force we are now. Why switch tactics when something has been so successful?
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not for nothing, but remember, drafting that way got us closer to the playoffs than we ever been since 2007. we won 10 games.
if you wanna use that correlation, not drafting that way has lead us...well..where we are today. losing.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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We have drafted a WR or TE w/in the first two rounds almost every year of our existence.
Btw.............no one wants to hear it, but it was excellent QB play that got us those 10 wins.
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http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htmwe have 7 different years since we came back in 99 that we haven't drafted a WR/TE with the 1st or 2nd round pick. i hardly call that "almost every year". 2008, Hubbard was picked, our 1st pick...in the 4th round. the first few years? we sure did vers, and guess what? we have also had the best records during that time all the way up to 2007 season, 10-6, and including the 2002 season we went to the playoffs. and sure, QB play had a lot to do with that, but you forget, the circus catches Winslow and Braylon were making sure helped out that outstanding QB play. since we're all about using facts...
Last edited by Swish; 01/21/14 08:53 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Do you enjoy misinterpreting the point and arguing about it? Seriously, man. Do you really think teams win division titles, playoff games, and Super Bowl trophies more because of the WRs or their QBs?
Seriously?
Now, let me see. And this is off the top of my head.
KJ drafted at the very top of round 2.
Q drafted at top of round 2.
A. Davis drafted high in round 2.
Leon drafted 3rd overall.
K2 drafted 6th overall.
Robo drafted in round 2.
MoMass drafted in round 2.
Little drafted in round 2.
Gordon cost us a second round pick.
And after all of that, we have two winning seasons, one double digit win season, one playoff appearance, and ZERO playoff wins.
WRs are the last part of the puzzle. You ABSOLUTELY NEED A FRANCHISE QB TO WIN IN THE NFL.
I really can't believe we are having this conversation.......................AGAIN.
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jc
Receivers can be vastly overrated once you get past the one big name target per year (usually). All of them can't run a route tree at full speed, many catch with their bodies (Little), and many don't have the speed to break free (Robo).
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hope you're not getting defensive. just a debate. on top of that, why did you feel the need to list every WR we drafted? seeing as how i just linked it to you. kind of counter-productive. i think some of you devalue the WR/TE position waaayyy to much. you know what makes a QB great? a WR that actually catches the ball. you think the lions go to the playoffs without Megatron? you think big Ben wins the SB if Holmes doesn't make that spectacular catch? on and BTW, funny that the MVP of big ben's first SB win was Hines Ward...a WR. you thing manning goes to the SB without Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Stokley? you think Flacco goes to the SB without Jacoby Jones and Torrey Smith? there's a reason why the falcons traded with us to pick Julio Jones, and most of this board thought we fleeced them, and they were playing in the NFC Championship while we "win" another draft day  thats my whole point that YOU missed. it takes two to tango. oh yea, Tom Brady- Randy Moss, first loss of the season, in the SB? who won the SB? hackim Nicks making a CLUTCH catch on 4th down.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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My list looked a heckuva lot more impressive than your link. LOL
How about this............you and I disagree on the importance of a franchise QB over a WR?
Cool?
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“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Top receivers in the league:
Calvin Johnson; Andre Johnson; Brandon Marshall; A.J. Green; Larry Fitzgerald; Dez Bryant; Julio Jones
Super Bowl Wins = 0
Top Quarterbacks in the league:
Aaron Rodgers; Peyton Manning; Tom Brady; Drew Brees; Ben Roethlisberger; Matt Ryan; Eli Manning
Super Bowl Wins = 10
It seems obvious, but I'm open for discussion.
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Greg Jenning, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Santonio Holmes, Marquis Colston, and Deion Branch were all franchise receivers for those teams.
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aaron rodgers? jordy nelson has 1200 yards receiving. greg jennings had 950
peyton? 2006 right? harrison and wayne EACH had 1300 yards
brees? 2009? colston had 1000 yards
big ben? already mentioned, hines Ward won the MVP the first SB, holmes made the clutch catch to win SB #2
matt ryan has ZERO rings
eli? 2007, burress 1000 yards. 2011, victor cruz has 1550, hicks has 1100.
you're right. it does seem obvious.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Greg Jenning, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Santonio Holmes, Marquis Colston, and Deion Branch were all franchise receivers for those teams.
Are you saying you take any one of the receivers over my list? A few on your list who went to other teams did not fare as well. Most quarterbacks on my list were able to do it with different receivers.
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except your list is biased, even though i've already dissected it.
please tell me, you think Sam bradford is a franchise QB? tell me, hows he doing without a go to WR to throw to?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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My list was put together rather haphazardly, so I'll refer to Swish's great post. Would I take that list of receivers over yours? Heck yes. Other than Calvin Johnson I'm taking Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne over any of those receivers on any day of the week. But yeah, some of those receivers didn't do well on other teams, but I think that has to do with how those teams played as a team. A WR can't control the defensive side of the ball and neither can a QB, but the opposite is the same. Truthfully, I believe that Ben and Tom's very first super bowls had more to do with how great those defenses were rather than those offenses. Wasn't that the major problem with the Colts when they had the greatest passing attack since The Greatest Show on Turf? Their defense wasn't good enough to win the super bowl. I think the QB is as important as you make it, but if you want to make a QB important you're going to need good receivers to do it.
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except your list is biased, even though i've already dissected it.
please tell me, you think Sam bradford is a franchise QB? tell me, hows he doing without a go to WR to throw to?
Swish, first, how is it biased? Are those not the best QB's in the league? Who on my receiver list is not a league leader? Most every receiver you listed was a product of a good QB. Some on your list went to other teams and did not produce similar numbers.
Sam Bradford...I counter your argument with T.O.
Sam Bradford is a franchise QB. St. Louis drafted his receivers last two years. It was ashamed Sam was hurt this season. I think Sam will make that a winning receiver corp.
Do you think Andrew Luck is a franchise QB? How well did he do this year without Reggie Wayne?
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Swish, I know of only two receivers who made a winning QB. They are Stallworth and Swan. How Bradshaw thinks he can even wear that yellow jacket amazes me!
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i think some of you devalue the WR/TE position waaayyy to much. you know what makes a QB great? a WR that actually catches the ball.
I disagree.. You give me Peyton Manning and 3 3rd tier WRs and I'll give you Jason Campbell and any 3 WRs you want and, all other things being equal, I'll beat you 80% of the time.
It takes a lot of things to win a Super Bowl so I think the how many rings do they have argument is sort of pointless.. but if you want to compete in the playoffs and be considered a threat every year, you better have consistently good QB play...
yebat' Putin
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Wait, are you guys actually arguing with someone who thinks wide receivers are as important (or at least almost as important) as QBs? That person obviously is clueless and cannot be reasoned with, what is the point?
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If I am St Louis, I have Sammy Watkins written on a card. The only point is if I turn it in at #2.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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If I am St Louis, I have Sammy Watkins written on a card. The only point is if I turn it in at #2.
Exactly... or I might have 2 or 3 cards, with the top WRs on them and if I can trade back and be happy with the 2nd or 3rd, then I'd do that...
Watkins on that fast surface in St. Louis would be scary... plus they play most of their games either in doors or in decent climate...
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Quote:
Quote:
i think some of you devalue the WR/TE position waaayyy to much. you know what makes a QB great? a WR that actually catches the ball.
I disagree.. You give me Peyton Manning and 3 3rd tier WRs and I'll give you Jason Campbell and any 3 WRs you want and, all other things being equal, I'll beat you 80% of the time.
It takes a lot of things to win a Super Bowl so I think the how many rings do they have argument is sort of pointless.. but if you want to compete in the playoffs and be considered a threat every year, you better have consistently good QB play...
How talented are these WRs? Tom Brady struggled badly at times because of the lack of talent.
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i think the QB is the most important position in football.
but some are saying that you don't need good play at the WR/TE position. it takes 2 to tango.
i'm not clueless. thanks for the insults.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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i'm not arguing great QB play.
but you guys are going with the greatest QB of all time as the standard. thats like me comparing every CB to deon Sanders and saying they suck and aren't any good when comparing them to him. it isn't fair.
the fact is, Tom brady is struggling hard with the zero talent at WR. those guys he has are game changers. and you guys KNOW it.
but when he had Randy Moss? yea..
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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he barely made it out the wild card.
i think andrew luck is a beast. and once again, i KNOW and have said before in earlier threads the QB is the most important piece.
but i've stated my opinion and presented stats to back my opinion that people are devaluing the Skill positions too much.
i mean, whats crazy, the guy says i'm clueless, yet i've seen him and other post, whether it be in pure football or gameday chat, about how our WR's don't win one on one matchups, don't get separation.
now that isn't important? so QB's taught Gordon how to beat Double Teams now? how to outrun DB's?
it takes two to tango. i'm leaving it at that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
If I were Clowney, I would've sat the year out.
He still would've gone in the top ten, maybe top five.
I agree. He did pack it in some last year. I don't deny that. That said, I don't see that as a normal trait. That was unfortunate for him..but at the NFL level I see a guy who will dominate for years to come. The team that overlooks his lack of enthusiasm last year is going to be very happy for a good number of years going forward.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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To me this kind of argument is like the chicken and the egg. Great WR won't get the ball if they don't have a QB to give it to them. A great QB can't get rid of the ball if he has no one to throw it to.
One thing they both need. An offensive line. A QB needs TIME to throw and a WR needs TIME to get open. A smart QB like Hoyer lessens the burden on the offensive line because he is faster making decisions. It still remains that he needs WRs that can get open and once he does they have to catch it and not drop it. Please notice I said WRs and not WR because it takes more than one WR to run an offense.
We have 1, just 1 good WR. We have a decent QB in Hoyer. We have an OK O-line when Hoyer is starting but their weaknesses show up when a slower QB takes over. Seems to me that if you get a second WR and upgrade the o-line the team makes a better start this next season. That to me is the tipping point.
We don't need to move up to get a QB. We need to make a team ANY QB can succeed on. Then when there is a worthy QB we will truly have something special.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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but you guys are going with the greatest QB of all time as the standard. thats like me comparing every CB to deon Sanders and saying they suck and aren't any good when comparing them to him. it isn't fair.
No, it's making the point that the greatest QB of all time is more important than the greatest WR of all time when it comes to winning games... you've stated your opinion on the importance of QB play so I'll take you at your word... The QB can't win football games alone, we all know that... I think what has many, including me, confused is your comment that WRs make a QB great.. or something to that effect.
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the fact is, Tom brady is struggling hard with the zero talent at WR. those guys he has are game changers. and you guys KNOW it.
but when he had Randy Moss? yea..
Tom Brady has what.. 11 consecutive double digit win seasons? With a revolving door of some good, some decent, some poor WR options... yes he struggled this year, he struggled to a 12-4 record and the conference championship game... now you put Calvin Johnson on that team and a zero talent QB and they struggle to get 5 wins....
the year they had Randy Moss, they won 16 games in the regular season... 3 more than their average over the last 11 years... oddly enough that was also the year they had the 4th ranked defense, the best defense Tom Brady has had statistically... and they still lost in the super bowl...
yebat' Putin
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So Dan Marino/Peyton Manning in a win off vs. Randy Moss/Jerry Rice. Interesting. Maybe this debate will finally tell us that you cannot rely on just one player to be your savior.
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It's hard to disagree razor. But if you can get the QB you want and think gives you the best there, then maybe you do trade up. I think it is easier to get the other players. I woud love if we grabbed the best guard available in round 2. This is also a deep WR class. I think we have a good shot of finding a compliment to Gordon in rounds 3, even 4. I don't know if the target is Manziel, Bridgewater or whoever, but unless it is a guy we could clearly grab at the top of round 2, I would be afraid to sit at 4. It is pretty clear to me both Bridgewater and Manziel will go top 3. I don't think either lasts to the 4th pick. I also think there is a chance one of the other QBs could go top 3 as well. Not as good a chance, but a distinct possibily. I don't want the 4th guy. I don't even want my 3rd choice. I want 1 or 2 and nothing less. If it means trading up, so be it. Plus, why does it have to be this years 2nd #1 pick. I don't think a team in the top 2 trading down 2-3 slots, getting our 2nd this year and possibly part of our dual picks in rounds 3 and 4 and our 1st next year is out of the question. If we make the right selections of coach and players, both draft and FA that 1st rounder will be more like a 2nd rounder. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 The Manziel tipping point
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