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That's a pretty good post. I remember you talking about the QBs early on, too.
I agree w/you on Bortles probably needing some time to develop. He would be well-served to sit behind a starter for about two full years. He is certainly a possibility for us, although I still like the other two guys better.
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That's a pretty good post. I remember you talking about the QBs early on, too.
I agree w/you on Bortles probably needing some time to develop. He would be well-served to sit behind a starter for about two full years. He is certainly a possibility for us, although I still like the other two guys better.
This is pretty much where I'm at. Bridgewater would be my first choice; Johnny Football my second. If those two are gone, then I would be OK with Bortles.
My nightmare scenario is we stand pat at #4 and those guys are the first three picks. We trade down with someone after Clowney or the OT and load up for next year? Sigh.
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During the season I seen potental in all of the QB's but all have some flaws also. I do not see any Peyton Manning's or Andrew Luck sure fire can't miss prospects bbut that does not mean they won't be great NFL QB's. Just not as flawless coming out of college.
Manziel and Bridgewater are very good QB's that just lack idle size. If they were 6'4 220 and have the same skill sets they would be off the charts. Bortles has that size but lacks at this point in the mental aspects of the game.
It is obvious the Browns MUST find a QB for the future. It does not have to be ror the 2014 season but they need a franchise QB. 1 of these 3 IMO will be a Browns QB in early May so I have watched film on all 3.
Bridgewater is the most polished of the 3 right now. Throws a good accurate ball. Makes his teammates better players. He does the best job of the college QB's taking what ever the defense is giving them. That just proves his knowledge and film work. His height is fine but how much weight can he put on is the question. I think as the draft gets closer is slight frame could cause him to slip as the meat market scrutinizes everything about him. Not many QB's in the NFL under 200 lbs. I think with the NFL strength and condition coaches he should easily be able to get to 210/215 in a couple years. I would have no issues if he is the Browns selection.
Manziel is the most dynamic. He will instantly make whatever team that drafts him a media circus. No press is bad press. Attention to a franchise cannot be a bad thing. He is a leader. I also see a QB that reads defenses and understands his players strengths. I seen him time and time again see man coverage on his top wide out Mike Evans and he makes his mind up pre-snap that man on man Evans is already open. He knows how and when to get his top playmaker the ball. I also seen him not only beat the blitz but attack it. During the Duke bowl game when the defense blitzed he did not just throw to where the blitzer came from he throw down the field where the blitzer came from. I have not seen a Browns QB do that since Bernie Kosar, That is the main reason he is my top choice.
Bortles is a gamer. He is not as far along in his development and Bridgewater and Manziel. Does not always make the best decsions every play. With that said he plays his best in the last few minutes of a game or when his team is trailing. The game winning drive at Louisville in the last 2 minutes was something a special player does. He is very physical for a QB. I don't see the comparisions that some talk about in Rothlisbuger. His physical skill set reminds me more of Luck. Rothlisburger uses his size to extend plays and shrug off defensers, Luck uses his to make a positive out of a negative play or attack a defense with his legs when they aren't expecting it. That is more how Bortles uses his physicality. If he proves to be someone who has the mantal makeup to want to do everything possible to improve and be the best he will be a very good pro QB, maybe the best of this years crop of QB;s.. If not he will be a long time back up with potential. I would have no problem with him as the Browns QB.
They MUST get 1 of these 3 QB's.
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OH Great Googly Boogly,, Did you think nobody but you knew those things so much that you felt the need to type all that out. wow.
When responding to you, all things need to be explained.
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I don't want us to pick a QB in the first round UNLESS they have a pretty darn good chance of success. Right now there are questions, lots of questions about every QB being mentioned as a first round choice.
Where have I said we should reach?
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That's not necessarly a bad thing. Remember how many questions there were about Rogers, that's why he dropped so far in the draft. Turns out all the questions were wrong. We need to find "THAT GUY" and if he's not there, take him and I don't care about the round.
What does this even mean?
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Here is what reaching gets you:
Weeden
Quinn
Couch
Phipps
Weeden was a horrible pick. Quinn and Couch were not reaches and went either where people thought they should go or lower.
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My nightmare scenario is we stand pat at #4 and those guys are the first three picks. We trade down with someone after Clowney or the OT and load up for next year? Sigh.
If the big three are gone, my favorite backup plan is Mettenberger. I thought he looked a lot like Tom Brady in the way he throws the ball.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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OH Great Googly Boogly,, Did you think nobody but you knew those things so much that you felt the need to type all that out. wow.
When responding to you, all things need to be explained.
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I don't want us to pick a QB in the first round UNLESS they have a pretty darn good chance of success. Right now there are questions, lots of questions about every QB being mentioned as a first round choice.
Where have I said we should reach?
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That's not necessarly a bad thing. Remember how many questions there were about Rogers, that's why he dropped so far in the draft. Turns out all the questions were wrong. We need to find "THAT GUY" and if he's not there, take him and I don't care about the round.
What does this even mean?
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Here is what reaching gets you:
Weeden
Quinn
Couch
Phipps
Weeden was a horrible pick. Quinn and Couch were not reaches and went either where people thought they should go or lower.
NO, not everything needs explained, this is too freakin simple.. You didn't need to do that.
To my knowledge you never said we should reach, You aren't that stupid to say something like that.
But you just spent I don't know how long typing all that up in an attempt to prove what everyone already knows, the most successful QB's come from the First Round of the draft.
That sounds like you want them to reach, but you don't want to say it.
So what are you saying?
Wow, you don't know what that statement meant? perhaps it's you that needs things explained 
My point was, some of, if not all of the guys that are expected to go in the first round are being questioned by one person or the other. There doesn't seem to be any clear cut "BEST" guy (Teddy Bridegewater maybe)
The reason I brought up Rogers is that there were questions about his ability when he was drafted. Remember there was supposed to be a kinda tie between him and Alex Smith. Smith went #1 and Rogers dropped to the 20's somewhere.
So questions about a guy aren't necessarily a bad thing... do you get it now.
As for Weeden, Couch, Quinn and Phipps.
Just because that's where they are expected to go, doesn't make it "NOT A REACH" Alex Smith is a perfect example of that. He's starting to look good now and he did in SF for a while under Harbaugh, but for most of his career, he was a dud and was as it turned out, a REACH.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But you just spent I don't know how long typing all that up in an attempt to prove what everyone already knows, the most successful QB's come from the First Round of the draft.
It took me about 10 minutes.
You are the one who said, "do we HAVE to do it in the first round? Is that where it has to happen?"
The answer is pretty much yes. Unless you get really, really lucky. Like I said earlier, when responding to you I want to make sure things are explained in detail so you have some chance of understanding them.
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That sounds like you want them to reach, but you don't want to say it.
Or I think, along with many others, that there is a QB (or two) in this draft that are worth the #4 pick. You obviously don't, but you have no basis for thinking that.
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My point was, some of, if not all of the guys that are expected to go in the first round are being questioned by one person or the other.
QBs are questioned every year. For example, Phil Simms questioned Andrew Luck's arm strength.
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Just because that's where they are expected to go, doesn't make it "NOT A REACH"
A player going where they are expected to go is the exact definition of not a reach.
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Oh just go look on Twitter and see if you can find answers
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Oh just go look on Twitter and see if you can find answers
What does this even mean?
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To me a reach is a player who is drafted ahead of where he was expected to go. That's it. Results over the course of his career don't matter, because once he's drafted then he either rises or falls on his own ability. Now a Bust is when a player drafted high does not work out. We have had far too many of those in our time. Going back to 1995, the reaches I see would be: Craig Powell Gerard Warren That's about it. Everyone else was drafted pretty much in accordance with their expectations. Now busts ..... that's another story. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Oh just go look on Twitter and see if you can find answers
What does this even mean?
He's just bitching about Twitter.
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Oh just go look on Twitter and see if you can find answers
What does this even mean?
He's just bitching about Twitter.
I know that. But it had nothing to do with the conversation. I guess when you have no intelligent response you just go with an unintelligent one.
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Just ignore him. Let's get back to talking about the QBs. There were a few good posts w/some real information and opinions right before that exchange started.
I am interested in hearing what people like you have to say about the links I provided and some of the other "scouting reports" that are out there about Teddy....and also for the other top qbs.
I am wondering if anyone else values a QB's brains nearly as much as I do, or is it all about how tall he his, how strong his arm is, his stats, and how much he weighs?
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In response to the brief article on Gordon talking Manziel. Here is a tv interview with him talking QBs a bit more. Gordon on QBs Vid..Shanny article As per your question Vers. Brains are really all I want in a QB so long as he isn't a complete noodle arm like Ken Dorsey. My ideal QB is a Peyton Manning type guy who doing audibles looking to exploit the defense pre-snap and setting up easy first downs. My brain turns it into the RG3 vs. Wilson debate. At this point I take Wilson every time.
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I am wondering if anyone else values a QB's brains nearly as much as I do, or is it all about how tall he his, how strong his arm is, his stats, how much he weighs, and the high probability that his lack of size and his style of play will get him killed in the NFL?
Fixed it for ya. 
*Disclaimer: Above reflects Dave's opinion (not Vers') of Johnny Manziel only. Dave would be very happy if the Browns had the opportunity to draft Teddy Bridgewater. Dave thinks that men in their early 20's will gain weight and strength as they approach maturity. Further, Dave promises he will refrain from ever referring to himself in the third person again.
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Agree w/you and Teddy's arm is not weak. It's just not a canon like Weeden's LOL A couple of guys have actually compared Teddy to P. Manning and A. Rodgers because of his mental capacities and ability to accurately deliver the ball under pressure. Dave: LOL........that was pretty funny. 
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If you find the best QBs by looking for guys with the best understanding of the game, the best instincts for the position, the best technique and the best ball placement, then Teddy Bridgewater is your guy.
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There have been QBs with brains, and limited physical skills, who have washed out.
There have been physical specimens who have washed out,
There have been tall and short QBs who have failed. Big armed guys and guys with noodle arms have flopped.
Given my preference, I prefer a stronger armed guy to a guy with a weaker arm. That is, if all other factors are equal, or close.
However, to me the most important traits for a QB are leadership, pocket awareness, accuracy, the ability to read and understand the defense, anticipation, and ball placement. Obviously there are others, but those are the keys. Things like mechanics and footwork can be worked on in camps. I admit that I prefer a QB with a big arm, primarily because he makes the whole field a weapon. This is especially valuable with guys like Gordon, Cameron, and maybe even Benjamin returning from injury. Also a stronger armed QB can zip the ball on plays that really need zip. (like a mid range out, and such) However, Bernie showed that great anticipation can often be an effective substitute for raw arm strength. However, we also lost to the guys with the big arms ... Dan Marino .and particularly John Elway ..... and watched Jim Kelly take his Bills to 4 consecutive Super Bowls. Further, with the weather we see in Cleveland on the lakefront in December, a guy needs a plus quality arm, at the very least. Ken Dorsey was probably one of the smartest QBs I have ever seem, but just could not make NFL throws. He is the other extreme of the equation from guys like Brandon Weeden, and others. Overall, however, I prefer a big, strong armed QB if I can find one with the other important qualities as well. I see all of the traits I mentioned as especially important for a potential NFL QB, but in the case of a tie, or a near tie, I'll take the guy with the bigger arm.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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A natural accuracy and intelligence are most important. If you have those two I think you can get away with even below average anything else. To me Teddy is elite in accuracy, touch, poise and intelligence. He's above average in height, arm strength, velocity, mobility and leadership. He's below average in bulk. To me that's a recipe for a top5 QB.
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That's probably why you liked Weeden so much.
Btw----------both Teddy and Manziel do not have a weak arm. Not even close. In fact, I think both have a better arm than Bortles.
Brains---and I am talking about football brains, such as making pre-snap audibles, calling out the hot route, reading coverages post snap and making sight adjustments post snap are huge.
Accuracy, poise in the pocket, anticipation, and leaderhship are also very important.
These things separate guys like Rodgers, Manning, Brady, Brees, and Luck from other QBs. I think Teddy certainly has those attributes and Johnny Football may have them, as well.
You don't get many opportunities to draft guys like that and when they are presented, you need to jump all over it.
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Btw----------both Teddy and Manziel do not have a weak arm. Not even close. In fact, I think both have a better arm than Bortles.
Disagree strongly about Manziels arm strength.
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You think he has a weak arm? Or a canon?
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He clearly doesn't have a cannon.
But he's obviously not Ken Dorsey.
Can he throw an out route in the NFL? Yeah I think so...
He just needs to get the "Run around and throw it 30 feet in the air" mentality out of his head.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Agreed. I know he doesn't have a canon.
However, I think some people believe he has a weak arm because he is not a taller qb. His arm is not weak.
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do both QB's playing in the SB have canon's?
or do they have good arm strength, but everything else is elite?
i need intelligence, accuracy, and pocket awareness. as long as the QB doesn't float deep balls, everything else can be taught.
jay cutler has THE canon arm, and a beast talent of an offense, but where is he at? on the couch with the rest of us.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Sorry, after several different posts of misspellings I had to do it:
Canon - a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
Cannon - a large, heavy piece of artillery, typically mounted on wheels, formerly used in warfare.
If you guys had a tilde over the first "n" you would be accurate.
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have i just been fined by the grammar police?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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However, to me the most important traits for a QB are leadership, pocket awareness, accuracy, the ability to read and understand the defense, anticipation, and ball placement.
Then why did you like Weeden?
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I liked weeden but just thought he was a late 3rd rounder at best. I like Bridgewater but his thin frame puts him as a mid first rounder for me. If i am gonna take a QB high its gonna be Manziel or Carr. I think those are the 2 cream of the crop qbs in this class. If you want one, You will have to go high. Bridgewater is a hell of a passer but man he is thin.
Bortles is a 2nd rounder. Garoppolo I think sneaks into the first. McCarron and Boyd probably looking at 4th or 5th now. Murray and Mettenberger probably 5th as well.
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Sorry, after several different posts of misspellings I had to do it:
Canon - a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
Cannon - a large, heavy piece of artillery, typically mounted on wheels, formerly used in warfare.
If you guys had a tilde over the first "n" you would be accurate.
I thought a Canon was a camera?
Teddy is by far my #1 Qb and I would take him #1 overall if I had that pick.
Manziel would be a distant 2 but I would take him with our #4 pick if he is available and Teddy is gone.
My later round Qb to get if we cannot get one of those 2? James Franklin Missouri.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I might've been open to taking a flier on Weeden in the 4th/5th/6th.
Really wasn't sure how so many were into the pick when we made it. I think it was an instance of talking themselves into it. I turned off the TV in disgust, and told my Bears fan buddy 'Well, at least we'll get a fresh start with a new regime'.
Django went down on the ship with that one. YTown at least had the sense to throw up his hands and admit the guy was a bum. But he was head-scratchingly gung-ho about him early on, to the point of making threads to hammer home the point that Weeden made Blackmon look better, and not vice versa.
I think in the end, he just wanted anyone who wasn't Colt McCoy, which is understandable. But be careful what you wish for, I guess. It's pretty sad when Colt McCoy outperforms you.
If you look at HC and QB, it's hard to imagine being any worse than Mangini and McCoy. But we found a way to do so. Shurmur and Weeden made those two look like fond memories.
When it comes to optimism v. pessimism with the new regime, the latter seems to take the cake, but if there is a saving grace, it's 'Can they really be worse than what we had before?'. My intuition says no.
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When responding to you, all things need to be explained.
It's almost as if his internet connection is limited to this site.
One could probably respond to 95% of his queries with https://www.google.com/
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Actually, Weeden was a hope that he would be something other than Colt McCoy.
He was successful in a downfield passing offense in college, and seemed to have maturity.
I actually wanted Wilson out of our available options. I didn't like Tannehill, and we couldn't get Luck or RG3. (both of whom I also wanted)
I think that I bought the hope of Weeden more than anything else. Drafting him meant that Colt McCoy and his 2 yard throws and meaningless last second drives in lost games would be history. Unfortunately, he didn't work either.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Fwiw, here's what I wrote about Weeden two weeks before we drafted him and pretty much explains my thought process of why I wanted us to draft him: Quote:
Hey, it's a need-fetish above all....it's a risk-reward thing...Weeden has a high bust factor...just like Gabbert, Ponder, Locker and Dalton had last draft....1 looked ok, 2 somewhat promising and 1 was horrible and overwhelmed....that's about the batting AVG we're looking at when we select Weeden...I'm not trying to sell him as a lock...he IS a juggs machine out there, so his ceiling-floor goes from Roethli to DA/Boller...my point in all this is: at least this dude has an upside worth investing in short term...his age allows us to go QB in the 1st next draft if he doesn't show enough...he'll not be a Colt-like "tease-QB" who does enough "not to lose" stuff ok, that some risk averse fans want to see more of...I am of the opinion that if you give this guy 10-12 starts you know if he trends Roethli or DA/Boller and plan accordingly in next year's draft....draft a Tannehill and you are committed...draft Cousins, Osweiler and you have another "tease-QB", who "needs more time", "he's young and still developing", "needs better players around him" yada yada, you knwo the drill: the excuse trifecta used for Colt already, who we're about to waste a 3rd season without a serious QB investment btw ...that's why I didn't want him to draft at all
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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...and for the record and to get back to the thread: my thoughts regarding Manziel are similar, just that the comittment is much bigger, especially drafted in the top 10 or as our first pick in the draft and that we probably will have better alternatives to draft...If we gamble on him at 26 or 35 with Teddy and Bortles gone, I'd understand and be ok with him....but at 4? With one of the other two on the board? As the face of the franchise for three years Minimum? Hell no...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I get all of that. It's a logical argument if you're talking about Weeden in the third or fourth. The second round is a stretch, but I get that in the moment, as well.
But not in the first round. Taking Weeden at 22 was just flat out stupid and desperate, and I will never understand how anyone thought that was a good idea, even while caught up in the moment.
What I really didn't understand was what I referred to as 'going down with the ship'. There came a point where there wasn't any logical explanation to your opinion outside of 'Django doesn't want to lose face'.
You constantly talked about him as our best option to win, even after he had proven himself to be so inept that the majority of NFL backups would've given us a better chance.
Like I told you earlier in the year - I think it's very possible that the guy will get a backup gig next year. But I wouldn't be shocked if he was done in the NFL, either.
Terrible QB, and a moron with a mouth to boot.
I'm not trying to rip you here. We're all off on our predictions. Even the pros are off quite a bit. I just never understood how you kept up the delusion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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...and for the record and to get back to the thread: my thoughts regarding Manziel are similar, just that the comittment is much bigger, especially drafted in the top 10 or as our first pick in the draft and that we probably will have better alternatives to draft...If we gamble on him at 26 or 35 with Teddy and Bortles gone, I'd understand and be ok with him....but at 4? With one of the other two on the board? As the face of the franchise for three years Minimum? Hell no...
Agreed.
I'll wince in either scenario, but taking the guy in the late first-early second makes some sense. (Personally, I don't even consider the guy until the third round).
To use a poker analogy, it's a low odds gamble, though sometimes you have to make those bets when the chips are down.
But Manziel at #4 is more or less pushing all-in pre-flop with a healthy chip stack and 2-2 in the hole.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
No offence taken. I guess we simply disagreed on him strongly, pre draft and in the NFL. Was the pick desperate? i'd say yes, but considering what we had at QB I can't agree with "stupid". Every time I ask what the alternative would have been I either get no response or starting Colt another season and drafting DeCastro. Considering how the latter played his rookie season combined with Colt would have maybe given us a better Shot at Luck, so maybe it would have been better  I defended the guy to a fault, because I still believed in his upside and because I was angry how he was hated beyond reason from the Moment he was drafted. It culminated in the postgame vs the Bills where you and others went as far as saying we own despite him, although he took over down 0-10 and brought back the team twice to win it. Even though you and the others ended up being right about him, to me those comments also showed your egos "going beyond reason" to "Save face". It's behind us, but it was incredibly ugly, especially since the dude worse a Browns Uni. We both weren't at our best in this imho. Now legt's find another QB....not names Manziel, hopefully.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,101
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,101 |
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Quote:
Oh just go look on Twitter and see if you can find answers
What does this even mean?
It means go ask your twitter buddies. You seem to think it's a great place to get Accurate Information, why not ask them.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 The Manziel tipping point
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