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I would give Buster Skrine the Most Improved Browns Player Since '99 Award.
In one season, he is the most improved player on the Browns I have ever seen since The Return.
Going into the season I was hopeful but critical of the Browns decision making going into the season with Skrine as a starting CB opposite of Joe Haden. I think they got lucky here. With all the accolades I have seen of Joe Haden, not just on here but nationally and rightfully so, it has put a shadow over Skrine. I think I have seen Haden get burnt a few more times then Skrine. But Haden is also covering the other teams top WR so I sure his targets are quite more. I do think Haden is a good tackler but I think Skrine is even better. Definitely a harder hitter.
Im happy with the CB situation going into next season. Way more then last year because I wanted to see more investment going into last offseason. When Owens was all they could get I thought the Browns were forced to select a CB high. I wanted Milliner in the 1st and Mathieu in the 3rd. Milliner couldn't crack the starting lineup and Mathieu has excelled in Arizona before injury. With Skrine playing so well, they will not be forced to selecy one high in the draft but I do think the depth behind the starters needs improved. Especially since Owens has been picked on more than anyone not named Robertson in coverage.
I was very critical of Skrine last year and in no way did I think he was in the teams plans to start the next season. I wonder how much of it is because of Horton. I have seen improvement of every returning player.
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I thought Skrine caught way too much flak last year. He was a 2nd year guy from a very small football school who started the season as our dime corner. We played an ultra-conservative defense that put little pressure on the QB. In short order after the season started, he was covering the opponents #1 WR due to suspension, injury and suckitude. What I noticed about him was that he was a very sure and very willing tackler and he has crazy closing speed and quickness. He always seemed to be juuuuuuuuuuuust a little late to the ball...I mean...just barely late. Even then, he would very often get his hand on the ball...just after it was secured by the other guy. He needed more experience and some more strength...I'm sure Horton and Haden had a lot to do with his development. Anyone who predicted such a transformation must really know their stuff. 
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Definitely have to give you big credit for that one. You were often a lone voice in the wilderness, but you were right.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wasn't so hard on Skrine, but even I was saying that he should be a #3 corner and no higher.
We still have a hole in our secondary. It's a MUCH smaller hole, with Skrine playing as well as he is, but a hole nonetheless. Hopefully McFadden or another can step up as well, in time.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Quote:
I wasn't so hard on Skrine, but even I was saying that he should be a #3 corner and no higher.
We still have a hole in our secondary. It's a MUCH smaller hole, with Skrine playing as well as he is, but a hole nonetheless. Hopefully McFadden or another can step up as well, in time.
With Owens out these next few games will tell us if we need to pick a CB in the draft. I doubt we would use a high pick having just used a 3rd on McFadden. He also played well last week. Nickel is of growing importance in todays NFL but I think we have enough young guys for now. We need to focus on their development before giving up on them or wasting a pick.
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How can you not be hard on a guy who consistently gave up big plays because of penalties? He had a streak going at one point.
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It's the difference between 'long view' and 'short view,' HotB.
It was really easy to bag on Buster last year, because he helped out tremendously toward that assessment.
Still... I thought I saw some things that made me hopeful.
The biggest one was his 'closing speed.'
When others were bagging on him for being out of position, I saw how many times he juuuuuust barely made it to the play for a break-up, and said to myself: "self- this kid is NOT YET A BUST."
I saw physical skills that could be developed. Kid got beat a LOT last year, but I kept in mind his youth, and the wide-open stage upon which he played. The takeaway I got from his first seasons was this:
He's raw.
He's Young.
He's NFL dumb.
He's a GREAT tackler.... textbook tackler.
The first 3 can be coached.
The fourth was already there.
Now, I think we're seeing in Buster Skrine, the results of a Browns system that is building upon the concept of 'continuity.'
A new regime came in, and didn't blow out "borderline/developmental" players just because the player's stats showed a particular story. IMO, they were smart to keep Buster, and give him this year for evaluation. Their patience was rewarded... because Skrine has become a regular contributor to a Top 10 NFL Defense this year.
When I'm watching a game in Real Time, and see a pass break-up, I first look for #23. My next look is for #22. As a casual fan, I wouldn't do that if I wasn't already conditioned to do so. THAT'S how much Buster Skrine has improved since his first days with our club.
IMHO, this kid has actually been the poster child of the philosophy: "WR's and DB's need 3 years to show what they are made of."
Buster got in under the wire, as far as I'm concerned... and has displayed enough potential to believe that his best days are still ahead of him.
__________________
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I congratulate the current Admin for keeping him.
THIS is how a winning team is built.... one (good) player at a time.
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I have no problem with Buster. He is pretty darn good in his position and as you said, he still has room to grow.
Let's put it this way, it's not like we have Hank Potete back there.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I like him too. Liked him last season because I could see he can play tight or close fast. He has the ability to get a hand on the ball very well. His problem before was PI and holding calls against him for doing the same things Joe Haden was getting away with.
This season he's learned the art of interfering without getting caught, for the most part.
Actually, McFadden this year reminds me a lot of Buster last year. For all the same reasons. Of course, I've only seen him in two games and never in college so I'm not predicting anything for McFadden yet but he has a lot of the same skills.
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I disagree. While Haden does get away with a lot, Skrine's penalties last year were over the top blatant in a lot of cases.
He has improved this year.
I would still feel more comfortable with him at the #3 spot.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
I disagree. While Haden does get away with a lot, Skrine's penalties last year were over the top blatant in a lot of cases.
He has improved this year.
I would still feel more comfortable with him at the #3 spot.
me either. he belongs as the #2
He is very good this year.
who cares what he did last year
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
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Quote:
He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
so it's a size thing? because he has played lights out and I haven't seen any WR's get big plays against us like when we had players like fall down Brown etc
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
i agree w/ ya..
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I don't. I think he is playing lights out. Congrats to Willie for calling it long ago.
I also think Skrine's coverage has been better than Haden's in recent weeks.
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Quote:
He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
Exactly.
What people don't realize is that Skrine plays over 50% of his snaps from the slot. Owens lined up outside more than him. Skrine has had a handful of fantastic games, but as many forgettable one's too. Per PFF his grade playing from the slot is much better than outside. Owens was ATLs 4th CB last season and he's played the most snaps opposite Haden. Add up the stats of all no2 WRs we've faced and you'll puke
We still need a no2 CB that can play outside. McFadden was supposed to compete, but he wasn't "ready"
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
Exactly.
What people don't realize is that Skrine plays over 50% of his snaps from the slot. Owens lined up outside more than him. Skrine has had a handful of fantastic games, but as many forgettable one's too. Per PFF his grade playing from the slot is much better than outside. Owens was ATLs 4th CB last season and he's played the most snaps opposite Haden. Add up the stats of all no2 WRs we've faced and you'll puke
We still need a no2 CB that can play outside. McFadden was supposed to compete, but he wasn't "ready"
I flip-flop on my thoughts on Skrine. He certainly has made much progress since last year but I guess I can't get over the fact on how small he is and how it relates to going up against substantially bigger receivers. Technique and toughness aside, he has no choice to commit a foul to save a big play from happening. Also, and I've seen this many times in the past couple of years, he often never even looks for the ball, he simply runs into the WR when the receiver stops to make a play on the ball. To me, that's very frustrating. Sometimes he gets lucky, most times its a PI. I think McFadden did this last Sunday...or maybe it was Skrine.
If we can upgrade on him in the draft/FA/or McFadden if he improves, that's fine. Unfortunately, I think there are bigger needs at other positions that require high draft picks. Also, I'd prefer cap money to go to other players first that someone that could be Skrine's replacement.
I guess I'm hoping he continues to improve at the pace he has thus far....and grows a few more inches.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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We just played the best 2 Wr tandem in the NFL.
Two weeks ago he was being hailed by some of the same posters as a future Pro Bowler...man talking about Fickle.
Was he perfect - Nah but he still played decently...actually on a couple of plays he showed his vertical leap making him a lot taller than 5'9"...He's a keeper. Now if you wish to discuss our #3, 4, 5 CBs I'm all up for upgrades there 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
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j/c
Skrine and Gipson have both been among the most pleasant surprises on this team. I was expecting an absolute horrid situation from both and they have both proven to be worthy of starting (though below average for starters - still, better than I had expected).
However, in both cases, there are severe holes in their game and they would be MUCH better served as the first guy off the sideline rather than the starter. I do hope we improve both spots this offseason while tipping my hat to them for improving their game enough that they aren't a huge liability on the field.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Was he perfect - Nah but he still played decently...actually on a couple of plays he showed his vertical leap making him a lot taller than 5'9"...He's a keeper. Now if you wish to discuss our #3, 4, 5 CBs I'm all up for upgrades there
I'll open with, I'm in for upgrading whatever positions we can... but why, since our 3rd year 6th round pick is finally starting to play well is he a keeper, but our 3rd round first year guy should be upgraded? If we want to use a high draft pick on a CB, go for it. I won't complain, but isn't there at least a reasonable chance that McFadden can show the same kind of improvement if not more over the next year or two that Skrine has shown?
yebat' Putin
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I want to keep Skrine too. Loved the pick in the 5th (pretty good 5th round btw with Skrine+Pinkston), but he's MUCH better as a nickel CB that can spot start outside than the no2 CB you bank on. God forbid Haden gets injured or misses significant time, would anyone feel comfortable with Skrine covering the no1 WRs? Me neither
I read everywhere how great Skrine is, Haden is a PB talent, same with Ward, Gipson being considered as "good" ("better than expected" does not equal good and I think that's the psychology working here. Just because he isn't a complete bum does't make him good. His UDFA status does not matter now that he's a starter), we have "good" pass rushers and depth, we have DQ, a "great" DL rotation etc etc Oh and Horton is hot doodoo too. Hmm..
Reading this board, you would not think we are the 21st ranked scoring D allowing a whopping 25.9ppg. We are also last or close to it on 3rd down and in RZ efficiency.
I think some serious distorted reality stuff is going on. The math just doesn't add up, not even close.
Skrine is one of many on the D-side that is vastly overrated
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I was really down on Skrine last year. Thought he was terrible. I said it was another bad pick by Heckert.
I can admit when I am wrong. It was an excellent pick by Heckert. Not sure what some are seeing, but Skrine has been tight w/his coverage all year. He is a sure tackler even though he blew one on Forte early in the last game. His closing speed is very good. He did a better job on both Marshall and Jeffrey than Haden did last week. No, I am not saying he is better than Haden, but it kills me when people act like there is this great discrepancy. There isn't.
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Quote:
I read everywhere how great Skrine is, Haden is a PB talent, same with Ward, Gipson being considered as "good" ("better than expected" does not equal good and I think that's the psychology working here. Just because he isn't a complete bum does't make him good. His UDFA status does not matter now that he's a starter), we have "good" pass rushers and depth, we have DQ, a "great" DL rotation etc etc Oh and Horton is hot doodoo too. Hmm..
Reading this board, you would not think we are the 21st ranked scoring D allowing a whopping 25.9ppg. We are also last or close to it on 3rd down and in RZ efficiency.
I think all of that is true.. which makes the second paragraph hard to explain...
yebat' Putin
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What a lot of people seem to have difficulty understand is CB1, CB2, CB3, etc means nothing. If Buster is your 2nd best CB then your in a great situation. A lot of times teams use their 2nd or even top CB in the slot. It all depends on the matchup. So to those saying Buster is a CB3 I feel it's kind of unwarranted. You'd be hardpressed to find more than a handful of a teams with a better 2nd CB this year. He is our 2nd best CB and he will play the slot alot because he's smaller and quicker.
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that's fair and fine. he's a very good slot CB. the issue is that we often have to match him up on the outside because we don't have any other CB who can handle it any better than he can (with similarly small but inexperienced CBs like McFadden & Poyer).
Even if we get a CB who isn't quite as good overall at Skrine, but is better at covering the outside WRs, then we are in good shape.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I was really down on Skrine last year. Thought he was terrible. I said it was another bad pick by Heckert.
I can admit when I am wrong. It was an excellent pick by Heckert. Not sure what some are seeing, but Skrine has been tight w/his coverage all year. He is a sure tackler even though he blew one on Forte early in the last game. His closing speed is very good. He did a better job on both Marshall and Jeffrey than Haden did last week. No, I am not saying he is better than Haden, but it kills me when people act like there is this great discrepancy. There isn't.
I agree. The problem is the "experts" around here think a corner should never give up a completed pass
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Opposing no2 WRs have caught 73 balls for almost 800yds and 8 TDs. That's fact and considering overall stats of those receivers, that easily qualifies for bottom 3rd league wide, if not worst 5.
That's a little bit more than "a completed pass"
Skrine is a fine nickel corner, pretty good one actually and those do have value, but a CB he is not
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And did Skrine cover the opposing #2 WR on all of those catches? 90% of them? 80% of them? 75% of them? You are pulling stats out to prove points, but it seems you are manipulating them. I have no stats, but I know what I have seen and no way in the world has Skrine given up that many catches? Btw..................will you post the stats on the opponents #1 WRs? Thanks. Better yet................can someone find the stats for how many catches each cb has allowed and how many passes they have defensed? I know they are out there. I remember two years ago when everyone said Haden was a top 3 cb and Brown should be cut, yet their stats were almost identical and they were side by side in cb rankings in terms of those statistics. Go figure..... 
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Not to mention if Haden is the "shutdown" CB he is portrayed as then the 2nd WR is going to get a ton more balls thrown his way.....it would be only logical that the 2nd WR would have bigger stats. The problem is I would bet #1WRs have similar stats and targets.
I've seen defenses target Joe this year.....good cb but isn't great. Shrine isn't as good but he's solid
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Actually, that is probably mid pack in comparison to others.
With Haden, Skrine will be an obvious target. That is pretty simple to figure out.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Here's something I find amazing. (and for those with a problem with it, yeah, it's a stat, deal with it)  Joe Haden is 2nd in the NFL with 22 passes defensed. Skrine is tied for 6th with 20 passes defensed. These guys break up a lot of pass attempts, especially as a pair. Overall I think that these guys have done pretty well. I do worry about the defense at crunch time though. That's not 100% on them as a pair though. Have they gotten beat? Yep. Everyone does. However, the TD pass to Jeffrey, for example, was combination cover by Gipson and Poyer, IIRC. Someone said that we expect our CBs to be perfect, and I think that is true. They allow a completion, and we complain. They allow a TD, and we are ready to throw them overboard. I do wonder how many TD passes Haden and Skrine have each been responsible for over the course of the season. I bet it's a fairly small number compared to other starting pairs of CB in the NFL. i could be wrong ...... but i don't think so. I know that I have been frustrated these past few weeks, especially. I know that others have too. I think that my biggest frustration is that the defense mouthed off about the offense, and then allowed late scores 3 weeks in a row to lose games. I know that this has played into my irritation with the defense ....... because I do not like one unit mouthing off against another unit of the team as happened a couple of times. JMHO there, but I know that it played into things for me. Anyway, I do think that our starting CBs have played well for much of the year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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When I talked to my buddies about the Browns before the season started, most of us hated the idea of Weeden and Skrine starting. Now Im very happy with Skrine.
At least with Skrine on the team, its not a major hole on the team but it does need depth, so the position will still need attention this off season. One injury to Skrine or Haden even next season we might have to see a repeat of 2012 Skrine with McFadden or ???
Who is the 4th CB? Poyer?
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Quote:
I think that my biggest frustration is that the defense mouthed off about the offense, and then allowed late scores 3 weeks in a row to lose games. I know that this has played into my irritation with the defense ....... because I do not like one unit mouthing off against another unit of the team as happened a couple of times. JMHO there, but I know that it played into things for me.
Anyway, I do think that our starting CBs have played well for much of the year.
I havnt been this satisfied with Browns starting CB situation since 99. Heck, Ive really only liked Henry and McCutchin.
I didn't hear the offense mouth off about the defense. Can I read this somewhere.
Sometimes I feel the defense is getting beat because the offense cant sustain drives and they have been giving the defense bad field position when its not a pick 6 (Cinci, Jax)
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The defense mouthed off against the offense. Ward and Taylor made comments about the offense in back to back weeks. (even though Ward's comments about turnovers seemed innocuous, those kind of comments can seem like backbiting, and hurt team unity)
He blamed the Steelers loss on "turnovers, turnovers, turnovers" .... which was partially true ..... but it looks like a defensive player blaming the offense. (which is never good, IMHO)
Phil Taylor said something like "They (Bengals) couldn't . a drop, and we still got blown out". (putting the blame on the offense)
You can Google the comments and find them fairly easily. I don't think that they were horrible comments, but they were unnecessary, and blamed teammates for a loss. Campbell, by comparison, praised the defense, and took the blame for the Bengals game. Yes, the offense struggled, but man, you just don't call out your teammates in the press in any way, IMHO.
We didn't hear the offense, for example, calling out the defense for giving up game losing drives 2 weeks in a row now, and falling down on the Bears final TD drive when they just shoved our defense around. (and which provided the final margin for the game) .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I need to see some stats comparing them to the rest of the league before I jump to that conclusion. C'mon Django, you and I both know that statements like that don't mean a whole lot if every other team is struggling.
Also lets just hypothesize that an opponents #2 and #3 CBs don't get burnt. Is it possible that their LBs or starting CBs are getting burnt instead? Maybe they're getting gashed in the run game? Maybe teams pick on their safeties?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Of course it's not a "clean" stat, i don't have access to the situational stuff a Pay site like PFF has to offer. Anyone out there?
What it DOES tell us though, is what we've seen: that we get beat up by mediocre WR talent. The major culprits for that are Owens and Skrine since they were in coverage of those for most plays. The FS, as deep help, plays a part in it too, especially in obv 4th Qtr desperate pass situations we've been failing at. I just never see Gipson ATTACK the Ball in those plays, which should be dream situations for FS. Same with our OLBs, they can tee off, but we still haven't seen a game closing sack or fumble there. It's disappointing.
All I ASK for is some kind of accountability. We've lost 5 straight and 8 of the last 9 games and people around here seem to be happy with everybody's job overall. I see a lot of blame to go around from FO to coaches to players, all having contributed to that streak, that is as bad, if not worse considering circumstances, as those of past seasons.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805 |
Quote:
Skrine is a fine nickel corner, pretty good one actually and those do have value, but a CB he is not
Spot on. I can't believe so many are satisfied going with Haden and Skrine as your main 2 CB's.
We are among the worst 3rd down defenses in the entire league. This doesn't happen by chance. We get virtually no coverage pressure on QB's. We have plenty of horses up front to apply pressure. A little help from our secondary would go a long way in bettering that 3rd down defense.
If we go into 2014 with the same 3 CB's in Haden, Skrine and McFadden we will see much the same results.
This defense needs 2 things immediately. Long before even speaking about replacing Gipson. A #2 CB to play out wide. And an ILB to get Robertson off the field.
Aqib Talib in FA
AJ Johnson Tennessee in Draft
Haden, Talib, McFadden and Skrine take this secondary to another level.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
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~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Quote:
Quote:
He doesn't belong at the 2.
He gets picked on when facing physically imposing WR's.
He's a 3, and that's not an insult. He could become one of the better #3 CB's in the NFL. It's probably his realistic ceiling in this league.
Exactly.
What people don't realize is that Skrine plays over 50% of his snaps from the slot.
That's true. However you're forgetting that a lot of teams are playing their #1 or #2 receiver in the slot a lot more. For example Brandon Marshall lines up mostly in the slot, same with Cruz, Welker, Garcon when in Indy, etc., etc. So he's getting his share of #1 and #2 receivers.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Could be, but Haden has mostly followed the no1 WR this season, he also has snaps from the slot because of it:
With that, here's what no1 WR did against us:
Wallace 1-15
T.Smith 7-85
Jennings 3-43
AJ Green 7-51
S.Johnson 2-19
Megatron 3-25
Nelson 5-42 1 TD
Bowe 1-7
T.Smith 5-78
AJ Green 2-7
A.Brown 6-92 1 TD
Shorts 6-64 1 TD
Amendola 4-36 1 TD or Edelman 6-64 1 TD
Marshall 6-95 1 TD
= 58-659yds 5 TDs or 60-687yds 5 TDs
Haden was superb until we lost that big game vs the Bengals. I still think he's played hard but simply struggled vs A.Brown and Shorts. Another explanation could be him trying to make more plays after the INT-ret TD vs Cincy. After that he gradually didn't care anymore/lost focus and got beat for more plays and TDs.
Still, this overall numbers are very good and probably rival any no1 CB in this league. They are well below AVG (that means very good) considering the AVG numbers of the guys listed.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363 |
Quote:
I don't have access to the situational stuff a Pay site like PFF has to offer
What somebody needs is access to what the coaching staff knows, and what the scouts and coaches from other NFL teams know, and even what players from other teams know. That info is very hard to come up with.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Buster Skrine
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