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This was an engaging post to read.
You put in a lot of thought on this- and actually cared about what you wrote. That much came through immediately... and made me want to read more.
It's nice to be able to see a person's 'thought process' in his post.
Good stuff. Very good stuff.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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When you look at the obvious patterns of HOW we lose every sunday, then any other conclusion that doesn't trace it back to coaching/sceme/adjustments looks like a conspiracy theory or grandpa's psychology.
I beat the drum like a maniac this offseason that we still needed an ILB, a no2 CB and a FS and every week we lose because we suck at those spots, no matter how many points our O puts up. To make it worse, our supposed strength, the pass rush, has disappeared too. That's the downside of when you put your entire offseason into one basket. Considering our halftime and 4th Qtr leads this season, those were exactly the situations we were looking for, to close off games with our pass rush.
That plan has failed....miserably.
other coaching blunders:
- amateurish use of TOs in the 4th, contributed to two losses
- typical Norv-isms: leaving the running game in the second half and expose your QB to hits schematically (Lack of protection, deep drop backs)
the plan has failed miserably??? ... *LOL* .... its the first year of the plan .. pretty sure its NOT COMPLETE .... but then again u know it all so please tell me why that's a bad ASSumption ... *L* ....
you've become so caught up in agendas I don't even enjoy reading u anymore ... are u frickin kiddin me ... cause heres my problem with this ...
if we went out and got the CB and LBer and what ever the hell else u wanted then we would NOT HAVE GOTTEN ANY PASS RUSHERS ... then we would have no pass rushers ... and u would be moaning to high heaven about that ..
U make it seem like all they have to do is wave a magic wand and that will allow us to ignore the salary cap and the fact that u can only do so much in one year ..
I have no clue how good this FO will be .. NONE ... but there is every reason to believe this coaching staff will be very very successful ..
continue on with your drivel D ... u will be doing it with one less reader as you've become a waste of time in my book .... if u ever decide to start posting what u actually see instead of what fits your agenda please let me know as I really used to look forward to your views ...
and if u do .... send me a PM otherwise I won't see it .... and that's not a joke ...
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We need winners on this team. And that starts with mindset of being a winner, then doing something on the field to show that you are a winner.
Man, Je'Rod so nailed it. And it was so damning. It really was. He called the team a bunch of losers. And they are.
Yeah, I agree.
It's similar to what I was talking about earlier in the thread. We need our better players to be better leaders. It's my opinion that it's the difference right now between us winning and losing games.
A couple of us were even talking about this after the Bengal and Steeler games. This team is desperately in need of players who are more accountable, less entitled, and who are mentally tough or have the intestinal fortitude...whatever you want to call it.
I do have to say that the comment about the team being poorly conditioned is a knock on the coaching staff. Coaches need to make sure their teams are well conditioned.
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Umm, you do realize that we are 30mil or so UNDER the cap. I'm sure we could have fit some 5mil CB like Lewis and 2-3 mil ILB like Dansby under it (plus the pass rushers already signed) and STILL be 20mil under the cap and good to go for the future. All we've won is the fantasy "cap contest" for this season or maybe Haslam's "save for a rainy lawyer's day"  As for the personal BS: I post lots of what I see stuff, from me and other sites that dissect play by play, but it gets no traction, not only my posts, but the few other posters, who actually write that stuff down neither. There are multiple reasons for it and I don't wanna go there, but if you go back to the postgame thread I've written a lengthy post about on field stuff. I do so pretty much after every game, for years now. At this point in the season I can understand though, as it makes not much difference anymore and the problem areas are pretty clear. We need a QB, 2xnew RBs, 1-2 new WRs, an OG, 1-2 ILBs, an outside CB with size and a FS and pray for better play from our OLBs, because the investment is already made. The last two positions is where some disagreements exist, but other than that, that is our needs list. If you deem asking for accountability as "agenda", so be it, feel free to ignore my posts. I said repeatedly that I want nobody fired, but I also said that I'm not giving away a freebee for their first season and that's what you and some others are aksing for all of a sudden. Not with me. I hold them accountable for their decisions and their words. Everybody has done some really good things, from FO, to coaches to players. I've applauded many of their moves and I've blamed parts of the org where I see problems, from FO to coaches to players and even backed it up with outside sources and in the FO's case even Vic Carucci of all people. Does he have an agenda too for calling out the FO? As for their words: we were promised "improvements" and that we would see them progressing. To me this team looks as hot and cold as the week one team, especially the D. The only unit that has progressed is the OL, although being put into bad spots by scheme (posted the PFF data about that too, nobody seemed to care for what I thought was very enlightening) The plan was to rush the passer and go light on DB. We've had enough 4th Qtr leads to make this plan work, but it hasn't worked. The consequence for me, and even Carucci and other observers, is to at least point a warning finger towards the people who implemented that plan, FO/coaches/pass rushers. It is what it is. Play better, win more games and the negative blame game will be exchanged with praise.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Uhmmmmmm, Diam isn't reading that. You know that, right? Or, did you just feel the need to defend yourself in front of the masses? 
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Quote:
At this point in the season I can understand though, as it makes not much difference anymore and the problem areas are pretty clear. We need a QB, 2xnew RBs, 1-2 new WRs, an OG, 1-2 ILBs, an outside CB with size and a FS and pray for better play from our OLBs,
That's what we need to beat the Seahawks.. (which I want to do mind you, don't get me wrong).. but for an incremental improvement to a 10-11 win team next year...
We need solid consistent QB play, 1 RB, 1 WR, a veteran corner would be nice, 1 OG, and an ILB.... which if we don't have to throw 3 or 4 picks at the QB, is very doable between the draft and FA.. The downside, as always, is that we are still in a position where it is imperative for 2 or 3 of our draft picks to come in and play at a reasonably high level immediately for that to happen.
yebat' Putin
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I agree with you DJ. Other than this weird Weeden fascination for several weeks where you were off your meds I presume ...I think you call it down both sides. People are very sensitive to any criticism of the coaches or players because it is Year One under this regime. For most of those fans, they consider this year a mulligan. I've read a lot of posts like "if the same stuff is happening next year THEN I'll get mad". I think that view isn't entirely unfair ... But to me it underscores the possibilty that our new guys might not be very good and that in and of itself is worth discussion. I think this fanbase is so conditioned to losing that they don't realize how bad 4-12 is in today's NFL. I mean you have to really try to be that bad to get there. It's on one extreme end of the bell curve. It's not acceptable under any circunstances except to this fanbase. I think the biggest disappointment ....even after Banner lowered expectations ...was that we were promised we would see an improved product on the field. We haven't and it hasn't been addressed by Banner. He's nowhere to be found unless he's asking for money. To me that's terribly disappointing. Everyone should get another year ...maybe more. Continuity does count for something. But to completely ignore the pretty big failure that this year has been is being shortsighted, IMO.
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j/c
The one thing I do agree with, is that after spending so much in FA and with the #6 overall draft pick with the intention of pressures and sacks, we haven't been very good at it. And yes, that can make one wonder about their ability to evaluate the talent needed to accomplish their goals.
Some of the very same posters who predicted how much pressure we would get and claiming all of those massive sack counts we would be getting, are some of the very same people screaming to high heaven at the posters who say the results are disappointing.
But I also believe we are very early in the process with this group in the FO and the coaching staff and more time is needed to draw any conclusions here.
I believe in both case, those wishing to uphold the shortcomings and those who wish to overemphasize those shortcomings are a little off base. As usual, the reality is somewhere in the middle.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Umm, you do realize that we are 30mil or so UNDER the cap. I'm sure we could have fit some 5mil CB like Lewis and 2-3 mil ILB like Dansby under it (plus the pass rushers already signed) and STILL be 20mil under the cap and good to go for the future. All we've won is the fantasy "cap contest" for this season or maybe Haslam's "save for a rainy lawyer's day"
Your forgetting about what it will cost us to sign our own free agents and still leave enough cash to sign a key play once we are contenders. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Contenders? Please tell me of this odd and long unheard of word of which you speak? 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Havent read much since I posted,
but thanks DC, Memphis, I appreciate the kind words.
It's old hat now to say...but we arent far. What I like most about this staff is they use their players strengths to their advantage. We're not plugging square pegs into round holes...we're using tool to make sure the holes these parts are going through match the shape.
Weeden is a slinger (not a good one, but a slinger) and our staff said...be quick, and get it out. Do what you do. Throw the ball.
McGahee is a grinder...and we grind him between the tackles
Gordon gets deep, we send him deep.
Bess gets open underneath and...drops it, but hes usually kinda open.
Little is a work in progress...I dont think the staff gets him...im sure theyre not the only staff with which thats happened, and prolly not the last
Haden is lock down...so we stick him on their best WR...not the Schiano zone it up Revis
Ward prowls...so we prowl him
Phil is big, so he sits big
Rubin is big and runs
Bryant penetrates...both of em
Kitchen is stout.
We do with our guys...what our guys do well.
Thats the mark of a good staff...
Its not...okay Weeden, timing timing timing and also protect it...be careful buddy.
Its not okay DQ go thud it around...
Its not COVER COVER COVER TJ...
We do what they do well...
You cant hate on that.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Rish...
I think that its a tough sell to point out that we arent better than past years...
Look back at previous seasons...we get to our 3rd QB starter what have we had...Bruce Gradkowski, Ken Dorsey, Thad Lewis (only good one, though the rest of the team was in the tank), Luke McCown, Charlie Frye, Colt McCoy (was good as a 3rd...but bad as a 1st...and made up for the bad that was Delhomme and Wallace)...
This is a team that with its 3rd QB, and a carousel of QB injuries, and trading its top pick from a year before has been remarkably resilient. We do manage to have a bad stretch that kills us in each game...but its better and more hope filling than the dredgery we've seen in previous 4-12 seasons...Think of the prior seasons, with 41-0 drubbings to Pittsburgh, getting quick snapped for a TD against Cincy, beatings to the Ravens, 7-6 WINS over the Chargers...i mean really unwatchable stuff...
This year...we know the outcome (well anymore) but we still manage a lead and good stretches of football, and exciting football...until we inevitably choke it away.
We're adding 2+6 and coming up with 10, when we used to come up with banana...
We're getting closer with this staff...(ugh, I've said that before)
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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It's true...but its crazy this year...it feels like we dialed it back as an adjustment!
We blitzed hard early and got a lot of hits...but got beat on the short passing game a TON...so we backed it off and flooded the short zones and improved on 3rd down...but now the adjustment against has been to hit the intermediate zones where we have done a remarkably horrible job covering.
Which we're adjusting too...less CRob and more TJ Ward up close and getting Posey and Poyer run...improved but still not good enough.
I've noticed...if our corners arent involved in the coverage of a good WR we're boned. We cover TEs and RBs reasonably well now (save for Jamaal Charles early in KC, and Forte...2 GREAT backs) but WRs are finding space in our zones...and often its a dropped off coverage that isnt picked up, or picked up quickly enough.
Same as my last post...were adding 2+6 and getting 10...when we used to get banana...I'll take it.
Horton has made changes, we just dont have the horses or consistency to fix it.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Save for the Steelers game...we've REALLY done a great job standing up to the teams that have usually pummeled us.
We beat Cincy for 7 quarters...handily.
We got Baltimore for 6 quarters...
We had NE beat
We were a drop away from pushing KC to the limit (OT or a W or a loss on the final drive that we gave away)
This team stood up to the top of the AFC and had em on the brink. Had teams that have scoffed at us, and rolled em in our place...now if we can take it to Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh...we can have a better leg to stand on.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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That's what we need to beat the Seahawks.. (which I want to do mind you, don't get me wrong).. but for an incremental improvement to a 10-11 win team next year...
We need solid consistent QB play, 1 RB, 1 WR, a veteran corner would be nice, 1 OG, and an ILB.... which if we don't have to throw 3 or 4 picks at the QB, is very doable between the draft and FA.. The downside, as always, is that we are still in a position where it is imperative for 2 or 3 of our draft picks to come in and play at a reasonably high level immediately for that to happen.
even with all those other needs ... and I agree they are definitely needs ... but even with them we had a legite shot at 10 or 11 wins this year IF Hoyer stays healthy AND he played like he was ... and I see no reason why he couldn't keep playing the way he did ...
we were 3 - 2 after the Jills game ... we would have had a LEGITE SHOT at 10 wins this year ....
I get the feeling that this team is a lot closer than being on here think ... were a qb away from being a legite playoff team and a RB and LBer away from being pretty dam good ... we need the other positions but we can be as good as anyone with the RB and LBer ... in todays NFL EVERYONE has a MAJOR HOLE .... and I mean everyone ....
if u want to talk Seattle .. take a look at there receiving corps ... Wilson has no one to throw too .. NO ONE including my boy Golden ..
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Uhmmmmmm, Diam isn't reading that. You know that, right? Or, did you just feel the need to defend yourself in front of the masses?
He's right D .. I'm a man of my word ....... u didn't send me a PM ....... if u want me to read anything u write directed to me u need to PM me with it ... otherwise I'm not wasting my time ... life's to short to waste it reading agenda biased crap ... especially when its someone like u who actually knows what there talking about ...
but that don't mean I still don't love u bro ...  .... it just means I won't be reading U ... and that really stinks since there's not many I read anymore .. *L*
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I agree with all you said...
but we need 2 WRs...and Golden and Baldwin are MUCH better than given credit for...plus if they use Harvin and Rice when healthy. Thats over.
We need 2 WRs...Little is bad. Benjamin is limited. Bess is better with less demand...he's good when he is an afterthought from the opponents.
Sammy Watkins and Marqise Lee! Please!
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
That's what we need to beat the Seahawks.. (which I want to do mind you, don't get me wrong).. but for an incremental improvement to a 10-11 win team next year...
We need solid consistent QB play, 1 RB, 1 WR, a veteran corner would be nice, 1 OG, and an ILB.... which if we don't have to throw 3 or 4 picks at the QB, is very doable between the draft and FA.. The downside, as always, is that we are still in a position where it is imperative for 2 or 3 of our draft picks to come in and play at a reasonably high level immediately for that to happen.
even with all those other needs ... and I agree they are definitely needs ... but even with them we had a legite shot at 10 or 11 wins this year IF Hoyer stays healthy AND he played like he was ... and I see no reason why he couldn't keep playing the way he did ...
we were 3 - 2 after the Jills game ... we would have had a LEGITE SHOT at 10 wins this year ....
I get the feeling that this team is a lot closer than being on here think ... were a qb away from being a legite playoff team and a RB and LBer away from being pretty dam good ... we need the other positions but we can be as good as anyone with the RB and LBer ... in todays NFL EVERYONE has a MAJOR HOLE .... and I mean everyone ....
if u want to talk Seattle .. take a look at there receiving corps ... Wilson has no one to throw too .. NO ONE including my boy Golden ..
This is spot on. I'm not sure I've ever agreed with a thing you've said on here until now. Not sure how that makes me feel. Not sure how that makes you feel.
I am amazed with what Wilson does with that receiving corps. The reason is Wilson is probably already the 4th or 5th smartest QB in the league joining the likes of Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers. He's a joy to watch. He understands what is happening in front of him better than any young QB in the league....even better than Luck.
And I absolutely don't think Pete Carroll can be discounted here either. He has his team ready to play week in, week out. Since Harbaugh joined the league three years ago, I've considered him and his staff the smartest group of coaches in the league. And Carroll just owns Harbaugh.
QB and coach...1a and 1b. That's what you need to be successful in this league.
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I agree with all you said...
but we need 2 WRs...and Golden and Baldwin are MUCH better than given credit for...plus if they use Harvin and Rice when healthy. Thats over.
We need 2 WRs...Little is bad. Benjamin is limited. Bess is better with less demand...he's good when he is an afterthought from the opponents.
Sammy Watkins and Marqise Lee! Please!
I agree that we need 2 Wr's .. 100% agree with that .. we could really use them BUT we can with what we have now at WR with the D we have and with Gordon and Cameron ... and remember I said we need a RB ... a RB makes those two even better ....
I love Tate .. but neither him nor Baldwin could carry Gordon's or Cameron's jocks ... Tate and Baldwin are slot guys ... #2's at best ... u could make that argument but it wouldn't be a real strong one .. sorry man ... U way over rate those two ...
remember ... IMO we would have had a legite shot at 10 wins this year if Hoyer stays healthy and his play doesn't decline ...
do we need 2 WR's .. absolutely ... but IMO we can be super bowl contenders without them if we get the QB play a RB and LBer ... I am not a big fan of either of our safeties either .. but we can win with those two just like we can win without upgrades at our #2 and 3 WR spots .....
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I'm not disagreeing with you there...I like our safeties though. I think Gipson is much better than he's given credit for. I just very rarely see either of those two glaringly out of position. We dont often give up huge plays...and thats because of Gipson and Ward doing their job not letting the play get behind them.
While agree with you about the comparisons to Gordon and Cameron...compare them to our 2nd and 3rd...Bess and Little couldnt hold a candle to Baldwin and Tate. And while theyre 2/3's remember Rice and Harvin have been oft injured.
What Baldwin and Tate do so well for Seattle is separate after Wilson breaks the pocket. They get open after the initial play really really well. Like Wallace and Ward and Brown and Cotchery have done for Pitt with Ben.
I think that with a better RB (I think we're in more need of OGs (Gilkey and a high draft pick) than we are a RB. Dion Lewis and Edwin Baker have shown quickness to the hole and escapability (obviously Baker in VERY limited reps). What we need is a solid between the tackles guy. OGB is limited (mostly by injuries) and McGahee is limited, by his own speed at this point...but remember, he had NO prep time for the season, his whole offseason was spent rehabbing leg injuries. His injuries were a 1 1/2 - 2 year injury before full recovery because there was ligament damage. He may improve next year...IDK though.
If Hoyer stayed healthy and progressed like a normal good QB does...we couldve definitely won 8+ games...10 sounds robust, but i'd say 8.
And I couldnt agree with you more that we need an ILB...a guy that covers ground and hits hard and has good instincts. That would shore up our D and youd see even more improvement from Gip and Ward.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I'm not disagreeing with you there...I like our safeties though. I think Gipson is much better than he's given credit for. I just very rarely see either of those two glaringly out of position. We dont often give up huge plays...and thats because of Gipson and Ward doing their job not letting the play get behind them.
Not a big fan of either ... there both pee poor tacklers IMO ... BUT as little as I like them I do believe we can with (or despite of) them ... *L* ...
I don't think Ward has football instincts ... I think he isn't a very intelligent football player ... the play in the NE game when Vareen beat us down the sideline is a perfect example of it ....
On that play we got caught in a bad coverage ... they split Vareen out and I think it was Robertson that went over to the sideline to cover him (it was one of our inside lbers) ... this happened a good 6 or 7 secs before trhe ball was snapped .... We were playhing two deep safeties on that play and Ward was the safety on that side ..
Well he needs to recognize theres a huge mishap on Vareen .. u just have too .. its right there in front of him .. if he didn't see that he has absolutely no awareness cause hes just not paying attention .. *L* .. he has to know he has to help on Vareen and that no way can vareen get behind him .. NO WAY ...
well when they showed the high angle of the play (and they did this twice) ... u see him inching up towards the line and angling slightly away from the sideline ... then on the snap he immediately starts pinching in ... I'm watching and thinking .. "what the f is this dude doing) ... and to make it worse .. no one went even close to the area ont he field he was sneaking in to protect ..
needless to say Vareen beats us for a 50 some yarder down the sideline .. and the D-coordinator takes crap for it .. well we got caught in a bad coverage on that play ... but the true culprit was Ward ... should have never happened .. he had to PROTECT AGAINST JUST THAT ... yet he totally ignored Vareen being split out with a lber covering him ..
that one actually made me *LMAO* cause Django was ripping Horton for playing man to man against Vareen after the guys from Detroit went wild and he made no adjustments ... well Vareen had 14 catches that day I believe .... well the play I just described is the SOLE CATCH HE HAD AGAINST MAN TO MAN COVERAGE ... his other 13 catches came against zones .. that's when I realized that Django had got sucked in to becoming and agenda poster instead of someone that objectively posted what they saw ....
and I see him take himself completely out of plays gambling when he pinches on run plays ... it looks great when he gambles and it pays off .. but he is a reason for a lot of 7 or 8 yard runs when if he didn't gamble he could have made them 3 or 4 yard gains ..
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While agree with you about the comparisons to Gordon and Cameron...compare them to our 2nd and 3rd...Bess and Little couldnt hold a candle to Baldwin and Tate. And while theyre 2/3's remember Rice and Harvin have been oft injured.
Rice had one good year with Favre ... that's it ... he ain't all that .... Harvin is oft injured ... THAT ABOUT SUMS IT UP .... he never plays .. the last two years I bet he hasn't played in 10 games ..... hes ALWAYS HURT .. as is Rice ...
Harvin is this supposed stud ... how many career catches does the dude have??? .. bet it isn't more than 250 ... maybe not even 250 .. and this was what .... at least his 4th maybe even his 5th year in the league ... has he ever had a 1000 yard season??? .. 800 yard season even??? .. TD catches??? ...
not sure why everyone thinks this guy is all that ... his value has more to do with his return and "flex" abilities ... he is not a PURE RECIEVER ...
right now and all year minus a game or two .... Baldwin and Tate are there #1 and 2 ... so that means they get compared to Jordan and Gordon cause that's who Wilson is ACTUALLY THROWING THE BALL TOO ... U compare Bess and Little to Kearse and there TE's and who ever there other WR's are ....
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I don't think Ward has football instincts ... I think he isn't a very intelligent football player ... the play in the NE game when Vareen beat us down the sideline is a perfect example of it ....
On that play we got caught in a bad coverage ... they split Vareen out and I think it was Robertson that went over to the sideline to cover him (it was one of our inside lbers) ... this happened a good 6 or 7 secs before trhe ball was snapped .... We were playhing two deep safeties on that play and Ward was the safety on that side ..
Well he needs to recognize theres a huge mishap on Vareen .. u just have too .. its right there in front of him .. if he didn't see that he has absolutely no awareness cause hes just not paying attention .. *L* .. he has to know he has to help on Vareen and that no way can vareen get behind him .. NO WAY ...
well when they showed the high angle of the play (and they did this twice) ... u see him inching up towards the line and angling slightly away from the sideline ... then on the snap he immediately starts pinching in ... I'm watching and thinking .. "what the f is this dude doing) ... and to make it worse .. no one went even close to the area ont he field he was sneaking in to protect ..
needless to say Vareen beats us for a 50 some yarder down the sideline .. and the D-coordinator takes crap for it .. well we got caught in a bad coverage on that play ... but the true culprit was Ward ... should have never happened .. he had to PROTECT AGAINST JUST THAT ... yet he totally ignored Vareen being split out with a lber covering him ..
that one actually made me *LMAO* cause Django was ripping Horton for playing man to man against Vareen after the guys from Detroit went wild and he made no adjustments ... well Vareen had 14 catches that day I believe .... well the play I just described is the SOLE CATCH HE HAD AGAINST MAN TO MAN COVERAGE ... his other 13 catches came against zones .. that's when I realized that Django had got sucked in to becoming and agenda poster instead of someone that objectively posted what they saw ....
and I see him take himself completely out of plays gambling when he pinches on run plays ... it looks great when he gambles and it pays off .. but he is a reason for a lot of 7 or 8 yard runs when if he didn't gamble he could have made them 3 or 4 yard gains ..
Watch it, bro............there are some articles out there by real live journalists that say Ward is the second best safety in the NFL and most of the board thinks he is great. Don't dare bring facts to the table.
Look, I don't think the guy stinks. He has strengths. He does attack the LOS well. He is a strong guy w/good straight line speed. He can make nice tackles around the LOS in the running game.
I think he does duck and dive too often while tackling. It amazes me that someone who can deliver such hard blows at times can be such a freaking wuss on most occasions.
I also think his coverage skills are awful. It mostly has to do w/what you were talking about. He simply doesn't recognize what the offense is doing. He is often out of position and then when a guy like Gipson comes running over late, the brainiacs on here blame the latter. 
I am not saying we should let him walk. He's okay. Not terrible. Not good. He's okay. However, if he wants top 3-4 safety money..........he's got to go. I hope we don't waste money on a guy who is a little short upstairs.
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I'm surprised you are so down on Tate. He's a pretty good WR. He has fabulous hands. He makes great catches all the time. He has a great winning attitude. Additionally, Baldwin is very underrated. He is sneaky fast and makes a ton of clutch catches for Wilson.
Rice is a decent receiver. Injuries have been his biggest concern.
Harvin doesn't play enough, but when he does............defenses have to account for him. That is a weapon in and of itself, whether or not he is catching passes.
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Quote:
[ He has strengths... does attack the LOS well. .. a strong guy w/good straight line speed... can make nice tackles... does duck and dive too often...can deliver such hard blows .. freaking wuss on most occasions. ..his coverage skills are awful... simply doesn't recognize what the offense is doing... often out of position ...I am not saying we should let him walk. He's okay. Not terrible. Not good...a little short upstairs.
Pardon me for being confused about what your bottom line is for Ward, but being the "brainiac" that I am, what more could you reasonably expect?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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My bottom line is that he is a decent player who can contribute. You also have to consider that you must ask other positions to cover up for some of his deficiencies.
I think where you--and others--are getting confused is because I am not all about black and white. I swear that I read these boards and almost everyone has to say this guy is great or that guy sucks. Very few posters list both positives and negatives.
Bottom line: I would keep Ward if he wants reasonable money, as in, paying him top 10 money for safeties. I am not sure he is top 10, but new contracts always cost you more. Note: DJ likes to bash the FO for the contracts of Kruger, Bryant, and Mingo. However, they were recently signed. What do you think Taylor, Sheard, and our next top draft choice will cost when their contracts are up? It's just more of his agenda BS! Back to Ward..............if he wants top 1-4 money...........I would let him walk and I would care less about what the media and fans had to say about it. He's okay. He is not elite.
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Quote:
He is not elite.
Superlatives get used as if they are a dime-a-dozen. I agree he is not likely "elite", perhaps not even fully competent; I simply don't know...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Look..............if people were saying he sucked....I would defend him, much like I do w/Mingo and Gipson.
Truth is..............all three have both positives and negatives in their games. None of them suck. Nor are any of them elite.
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Look..............if people were saying he sucked....I would defend him, much like I do w/Mingo and Gipson.
Truth is..............all three have both positives and negatives in their games. None of them suck. Nor are any of them elite.
I am in the minority, but the games I have seen I thought Mingo was progressing well for a rookie. I quit paying for the Ticket when I became so frustrated with the Browns a few years back so I freely admit I haven't seen all the games. Therefore, having watched him earlier this year and then comparing him to last week I was impressed with how far he had come with his recognition abilities. He is still a work in progress, but so are most rooks....shrug.
I'm with Diam from what I've saw....consistent QB play would do wonders for this team and our outlook on certain players would be drastically different.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I think it is pretty obvious that Mingo has a lot of talent. He is improving technique wise, but he still gave up outside containment on a long run by the Bears. Of course, a bit later on, Sheard did the same thing. Guys will bash Mingo for it, but not Sheard.
Mingo does need to improve, but I see a guy who is very active and those quick-twitch muscles that are problematic for blockers. I also think he closes down the line very well in the running game. He also does a nice job in pursuit. He's a very active player. I don't get how some are calling him a bust.
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Note: DJ likes to bash the FO for the contracts of Kruger, Bryant, and Mingo. However, they were recently signed. What do you think Taylor, Sheard, and our next top draft choice will cost when their contracts are up? It's just more of his agenda BS!
Quoted for pricelessness.
Now I'm getting crucified for non existing contracts and my view of those non existing contracts in advance. Hilarious.
This not only is further proof for the crusade, misconstruction of my opinion etc. Vers has actually reached a point where the strawman he built with my nickname on it apparently wasn't enough anymore. He makes him talk too now all by himself. Some crazy crap, lol
Anyway, as for Ward. As always the most important difference between Gipson and Ward gets overlooked: they play different positions. FS to SS is like ILB to OLB or WR to receiving TE. Ward plays over 60% of his snaps at the LOS (data recently per PFF), Gipson plays deep well over 60%, I don't have the exact number, but I'd guess well over 80% of the snaps. Different positions, different skill requirements and different jobs to do.
Since you like to portray yourself as the Mahatma Ghandi of this board, having no problem to disagree etc, why can't you just accept that there's disagreement on the evaluations and move on?
Since you're obviously not playing nice yet again I have to fire another bullet towards Gipson I was holding back because I didn't want to face more BS posts from you, bt since you don't stop anyways, here goes:
That pathetic play that allowed a crucial TD to Jeffery was to FS play what Weeden's flipper INT was to QB play, considering game timing/importance and the level of pathetic-ness. It was the same level of horrible, last play that was as bad was Rahim Moore from Denver vs the Ravens last season in the POs…and NO, I'm not comparing the two players or the value, but I found it very amusing that you shrugged it off as "it happens" in the post game thread. Wonder if you would have written that if it was Ward staring at the ball for two entire seconds and not only NOT come up with an INT, but not even a deflection to disrupt the TD? This entire board knows the answer to that, Mr Agenda double standard
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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You ramble a lot.
You weren't getting crucified for "non-existing contracts." LOL...... I was pointing out how you throw the amount of money those guys get as an indicator of how dumb our FO is. Of course those guys cost more. It's how the NFL is set-up. Quit trying to play dense.
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Quote:
Not a big fan of either ... there both pee poor tacklers IMO ... BUT as little as I like them I do believe we can with (or despite of) them ... *L* ...
I don't think Ward has football instincts ... I think he isn't a very intelligent football player ... the play in the NE game when Vareen beat us down the sideline is a perfect example of it ....
On that play we got caught in a bad coverage ... they split Vareen out and I think it was Robertson that went over to the sideline to cover him (it was one of our inside lbers) ... this happened a good 6 or 7 secs before trhe ball was snapped .... We were playhing two deep safeties on that play and Ward was the safety on that side ..
Well he needs to recognize theres a huge mishap on Vareen .. u just have too .. its right there in front of him .. if he didn't see that he has absolutely no awareness cause hes just not paying attention .. *L* .. he has to know he has to help on Vareen and that no way can vareen get behind him .. NO WAY ...
well when they showed the high angle of the play (and they did this twice) ... u see him inching up towards the line and angling slightly away from the sideline ... then on the snap he immediately starts pinching in ... I'm watching and thinking .. "what the f is this dude doing) ... and to make it worse .. no one went even close to the area ont he field he was sneaking in to protect ..
needless to say Vareen beats us for a 50 some yarder down the sideline .. and the D-coordinator takes crap for it .. well we got caught in a bad coverage on that play ... but the true culprit was Ward ... should have never happened .. he had to PROTECT AGAINST JUST THAT ... yet he totally ignored Vareen being split out with a lber covering him ..
that one actually made me *LMAO* cause Django was ripping Horton for playing man to man against Vareen after the guys from Detroit went wild and he made no adjustments ... well Vareen had 14 catches that day I believe .... well the play I just described is the SOLE CATCH HE HAD AGAINST MAN TO MAN COVERAGE ... his other 13 catches came against zones .. that's when I realized that Django had got sucked in to becoming and agenda poster instead of someone that objectively posted what they saw ....
and I see him take himself completely out of plays gambling when he pinches on run plays ... it looks great when he gambles and it pays off .. but he is a reason for a lot of 7 or 8 yard runs when if he didn't gamble he could have made them 3 or 4 yard gains ..
I learned a lot from reading that.
A couple of questions:
1. Is there a chance that Ward didn't have the freedom to "recognize" and change his responsibility?
and/or
2. Is there a chance that Robertson said "I got this" thereby freeing up Ward to play at the LOS?
I can't remember ... did they split Vereen out of the backfield in motion or did they break the huddle that way? I'm guessing if he split out in motion, then it was Robertson's job to track him and Ward would then have some freedom to "recognize" what was going on and provide help. Or did our D get a chance to communicate ahead of time seeing Vereen split out wide and what they would want to do in that case?
Not trying to defend Ward here ... more just understand how that communication works / should work ... in a case like that.
I found your post particularly insightful, and it made me think. That's why I'm asking the questions.
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Rish I was explicitly thinking that...
The QB of a defense is the MLB...If anyone is to recognize things and make changes it would be DQ. I understand that a safety can adjust what he needs to do, but if the defense isnt designed for said changes...How are we to hate on Ward for not adjusting.
To say that they have poor coverage skills...are nitpicking and not taking into account the coverages being run, responsibilities of each player.
How often to you see a big play with Ward or Gipson trailing or getting beaten over the top...
Obviously the Jeffrey touchdown is glaring and that Vereen play sticks out...but are there more?
Yes Ward gambles...but thats what makes him good. And Gipson is good protection. Occasionally he goofs...but he is largely doing a good enough job...and he is an undrafted with room and time to grow...even better, he is cheap.
We have a lot of players to sign over the next couple of offseasons which will get us close to the cap...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Je'Rod Cherry: “I’ve come to the point where I realize that these guys are simply not tough enough. They have poor conditioning and no mental toughness whatsoever to sustain the ability that is needed to win a football game. In a game where your body is telling you to quit, especially when it is cold outside and you know there is not much to play for, that’s when you have to put those demons to sleep and come out and play. They have to have the ability to mentality go beyond that outside noise and tell themselves that it does matter. They need to add those players who can take the team to the next step and not make those same mistakes over and over again. I think they should use these last two games to get over that mental hurdle and to show this organization that they deserve to be here next year.”
Agree w/this and it backs up my point that Heckert drafted a lot of talented, but mentally weak players.
mentally weak players
Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton says ‘psychological-pressure effect’ root of fourth-quarter collapses
BEREA: Defensive coordinator Ray Horton could use a psychology degree on his resume and a chaise lounge in his office at Browns’ headquarters because his players are struggling mentally.
At least that is Horton’s explanation for the defense melting down and allowing fourth-quarter comebacks in each of the past three games. Horton has touted his players’ statistical achievements for the vast majority of this season, but he spent most of his news conference Thursday lamenting the state of their collective mindset and performance in crunch time.
“I think as the games go on, there’s more pressure to perform well and to not repeat a pattern that has happened in the past,” Horton said. “So is there a psychological-pressure effect? I think there is.”
Excluding the Chicago Bears kneeling down at the end of their 38-31 win this past weekend at FirstEnergy Stadium, Horton’s defense has allowed scores in eight — six touchdowns and two field goals for 47 points — of the last nine fourth-quarter possessions in the past three games. With the Browns (4-10) set to visit the New York Jets (6-8) on Sunday, Horton’s men must end the disturbing trend if they hope to prevail.
Defensive captain and inside linebacker D’Qwell Jackson didn’t seem to entirely buy Horton’s theory about the root of the problem, though he stressed the importance of finding a solution.
“That’s a coach’s perspective,” Jackson said. “I’ll tell you what, we fight every snap. That’s not something that goes through our head. We’re trying to figure it out. That’s one thing we’ve been trying to harp on is finishing drives, finishing practice, finishing whatever we’re doing. That’s been the topic of discussion the last few weeks. For whatever reason, we can’t seem to pull it together from a team aspect. Defensively, we’ve had some letdowns. To be a great defense, we can’t do that.”
On the other hand, free safety Tashaun Gipson said “it’s very evident” that players have been pressing too much in the fourth quarter.
“I think you’ve just got to look at yourself in the mirror and demand more out of yourself,” Gipson said. “I don’t think it’s nothing that the coaches can coach. I think it should just really start with [the players], and Coach Horton has really been on it this week more particularly than others, and I think that it truly comes down to each and every individual that’s going to have an impact on the game to truly just look at himself and say, ‘I’ve got to do my job and my job only. I can’t worry about making a big play. If the play’s going to come by me doing my job than so be it.’ ”
The Browns and Dallas Cowboys are tied for the most points allowed in the fourth quarter this season with 128. And the Browns have been outscored in the fourth quarter by 62 points, the largest differential in the NFL this season.
“I don’t want to use any kind of excuse or crutch to say, ‘We’re young or this and that.’ It’s not acceptable at this point in the season,” Horton said. “You have to do your job, and you have to be accountable or at some point, you move on, and we have failed the last three weeks. I don’t care how you say the game went. The defense was on the field, and we talk about being accountable and we talk about being the backbone of the team. Well, you can’t [surrender leads]. You don’t do that.”
Horton stopped short of saying his players have been choking, but he made it clear they’ve been buckling under pressure. The defense is ranked eighth in the league (328.9 yards allowed per game), but it won’t be elite until it can consistently deliver when the stakes are high.
“It’s very disappointing,” Horton said. “We talk to our players about it. You cannot play well for three quarters and then come crunch time tighten up because the calls, when you look at them, are about the same and the same players, theoretically, are on the field, their team has run, theoretically, the same plays.”
Horton said Gipson and strong safety T.J. Ward played at a Pro Bowl level against the Bears, but not enough of their teammates rose to the occasion in the clutch. He used an NBA analogy involving LeBron James to explain the scenario to his players.
“Some of the guys will wait for LeBron to go and score in the fourth quarter,” Horton said. “Well, Tashaun and T.J. played like they did, but the rest of the guys are accountable to do your job. Now some of the job is assist and get the ball to them and get out of the way, block, rebound. Our guys’ job is to know what to do and how to do it and make the tackle and not commit an error. Just because the game is in the fourth quarter and the game is a seven-point game one way or another or tied, you can’t tighten up and go, ‘I’m going to do something different or I’m going to wait for somebody.’ We need somebody to step up and not take that back step and say, ‘I’m going to wait for somebody else to do it.’ ”
Like Gipson pointed out, there are also times when players are caught out of position because they freelance too much instead of sticking to their assignment.
“Then you get out of your gap and you do a different technique,” Horton said. “But why would you? We talk about every play is weighted the same. Whether it’s the first play or the last play of the game, to me, it really doesn’t make a difference. And I know for athletes it does because as the clock ticks down, there’s a psychological effect on them, but it shouldn’t be that way. One play, whether it’s in the first quarter or last quarter, they’re all important to me.”
But the ones at the end have haunted the Browns the most.
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...lapses-1.453754
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Willie,oops Ray Horton says;
"Vote for me to be your next HC,I'm black and I can talk pycho babble"
Of coarse I coach an historically bad 4th qtr.defense,not my fault,
"It's Affluenza" yeah that's it.
Last edited by BCbrownie; 12/20/13 05:01 PM.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Wow. You sure you don't wanna throw in some references to fried chicken and watermelon in there while you're at it?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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What?
I said he was black,I'm fairly certain he is.I added that in reference to the Rooney Rule.So in that light it's a pertinent piece of information.
Maybe I should have said "I'm a man" but then that may have PO'd some females.
Would "I'm a Homo Sapiens" sit better with you? I don't think that one will fly.
I got it "I'm a mostly carbon entity" there isn't a thin skinned person on the planet that could get riled over that.
I will be the first to admit that I'm one of the most politically uncorrect people you'll run across.But,I have to wonder,am I the racist for calling a black man "black",or are you for bringing up that stereotypical BS about chicken and watermellon?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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just thinkin outloud...
I was a lil iffy on callin him Willie...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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That was ashot at my brother,who happens to be the biggest redneck A-hole on the planet,but I find him hilarious.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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