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There were two DE's drafted ahead of Mingo last year.
At #3 for the Fins is Dion Jordan, he has 17 tackles, 7 assists and 2 sacks.
At #5 for the Lions is Ezekiel Ansah, he has 19 tackles, 12 assists and 8 sacks.
At #6 for the Browns is Mingo, he has 28 tackles, 12 assists and 5 sacks.
Now why is it Mingo sucks?
Mingo has had his struggles. He has lost contain on some big plays for the opponent ...... and has been inconsistent. However, he has played well at times too. He is inexperienced, and that has shown badly at times. However, he also has great talent, and that has shown as well.
Oh there's no doubt he's over-pursued many plays and lacks a good inside move but these things can be learned. In relation to his contemporaries, he's not doing too badly, he is at least on par.
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The criticism of Mingo is akin to the criticism of Bess, IMO. Fans expect perfection at all times no matter the circumstances. In the case of Bess, I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt since he has a track record of pretty good play. In the case of Mingo, it's his FIRST year. Common sense does not rule the day around here.
There's no problem in being objective and saying they played bad and they need to improve. But the "cut him!", "he's terrible!", "he's a bust!" comments are over the top. I think it's even reasonable to be disappointed in Mingo, especially if you are in the camp that the #6 overall should have had more impact. But the book on him is far from being written.
Now before my stalker Mantis gets here to quote my Chud comments in various threads, let me just say I know I am particularly hard on Chud. But I've never said to fire him. It's also his FIRST year. But one of the reasons I'm so hard on Chud is because of the hypocrisy on this board and Browns fans in general in regards to Chud only because he's from Ohio and grew up a Browns fan. Any other coach that put up the season he did would have been lambasted to no end. Let's hope he, and Mingo, improve.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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But one of the reasons I'm so hard on Chud is because of the hypocrisy on this board and Browns fans in general in regards to Chud only because he's from Ohio and grew up a Browns fan. Any other coach that put up the season he did would have been lambasted to no end.
So part of the reason you're hard on Chud has nothing at all to do with his performance but because you perceive Homerism?
That makes zero sense. Way to judge someone based on their own merit. 
I would add that I haven't seen any Homerism at all from people on this board because he's from Ohio or rooted for the Browns. I think that's in your head.
You have every right to be critical of Chud if you perceive he's not doing his job well, but admitting that you aren't just hard on him for merit but what amounts to spite truly brings into question your judgement and motives.
We're going to continue to have friendly (and sometimes not so friendly  ) banter or debates on whether or not this team has enough talent to win on a regular basis. I maintain that this roster isn't on par with the rest of the league in terms of talent and because of that we aren't going to win as often as you believe we should. Both of our Coordinators are known quantities with resumes and track records of success, so to believe that they are failing this organization by squandering the talent here doesn't seem plausible.
Sad offensive talent and questionable defensive talent won't equal 8 wins on a team that is rebuilding no matter who is coaching them.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Also, since Mingo has had health issue and missed games and then also battled for reps over Jabaal/Paul - hasn't he also had less game playing time than the other picks you mentioned?
Don't get me wrong, I see upside. I am aware he started strong, and then got a lil' cold in terms of production. He sets the edge like a lego set holding a four-ton wrecking ball. Is there improvements to be made? Yes. Is there improvements that NEED to be made? Yes.
I am not on the Mingo sucks bandwagon. Kid has upside and he was a rookie in a totally different scheme and position. I'd rather get more upset at someone like Bess who has the experience and etc, and still had a dismal season.
I predict Mingo to have a good off-season, come in a little heavier due to added muscle - and progress! Each interview I watch, the kid oozes with the "i'll do whatever it takes" type of attitude.
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Speaking only for myself, part of my initial support of the selection of Chudzinski (though I wasn't really happy about it when it first happened) was an element of that.
The thing that made me most-angry about the previous regime was not the selection of Weeden, or the trade-up for Richardson, or the selection of Schwartz over Glenn, or the passing on Julio Jones for a package of picks, or drafting Owen Marecic, though all those things did incense me; it was the hiring of Pat Shurmur as the coach. Holmgren made all this noise about how "we're going to interview all the candidates to make sure we get the absolute best choice... I hope this is the only coach I ever hire *blah blah blah*" and he came up with Pat freakin' Shurmur. It completely came across as "Hey, I'm in charge of an NFL thingy... I'm gonna give my buddy's nephew an 'in' because I have the ability to do that... and who cares who is the coach of the Browns, anyway? It will look good on his resume.
At least with Chud, I felt like we were getting a guy who was excited to be the coach of the Browns... not looking for a stepping-stone job, and not just pleased with being an NFL coach, but someone who actually cared specifically about the Browns.
I have moved on past that, and am in the "produce results" mindset.
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You caught me ... that's the only reason I'm critical of Chud ...  I mean what's there to be critical of? The only thing I can think of is that hypocrisy, not his performance.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I made a point of NOT suggesting it's the only reason you're critical of him. It is Christmas afterall Having said that, you did plainly state your criticism stems in part because of perceived Homersim.
As Steve states, he liked the fact Chud was a local guy but doesn't color his results Brown because of it and I've seen no indications from others here suggesting that's happening.
So that leaves me with one of three possibilities:
1) I'm wrong and that there is rampant Homerism glossing over Chuds failures to produce with adequate talent
2) you're wrong in believing rampant Homerism is glossing over Chuds failures to produce with adequate talent
3) you're using Homerism as an excuse and justification for bagging on the guy.
Hey, if you don't believe in the guy, cool, so be it, but using Homerism as a reason? No sir, I'm not buying that.
I'm back in Wooster just for a couple of days for Xmas, and happen to be listening to some of the local flavor talk shows about the Browns (laughable stuff, by the way, as far as the callers go) and Jarod Cherry was asked point blank if it's the coaches or the players who are responsible for results. He stated it is 70% the players.
You could be on target about Chud but using Homerism doesn't make your case. That really rings hollow.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Do we have to do 'paint by numbers' with you?
Let me spell it out very carefully.
I am critical of Chud because I don't think he has done a good job.
I admit to being over the top with those criticisms (you know the whole 'Chud's a dud' thing) because I believe he gets a pass from most fans due to him being an Ohio guy. You know ... it's my way of needling the masses.
Two mutually exclusive things.
I hope that's not hard to understand.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Chud did not trade away a couple of mid round draft choices to build for next year.
Chud did not trade away the first rounder from last year, 3 weeks into the season.
We will never know Chud's position about if he thought Weeden would work or would not work.
I could care less about the growing up a Browns fan thing. It is nice, but Rothesburger grew up a Browns fan as well.
What does make a difference is how he works with the available talent, and what talent they go after in the forthcoming year..
I don't see silly stupid things that Crennel and Shurmer were called out for in Chud. So I think more time is merited.
This year was an evaluation year, well, we have evaluated, now it is time to get this team fixed.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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When Holmey brought in Shurmur, I didn't think to much about it, because I thought MH was bringing in a puppet and he would be calling the shots in the back ground. Turns out not only was Shurms a dud, but MH didn't want anything to do with it. After that first year I pretty much knew we were screwed with Shurms.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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You can buy into the "70% talent" thing if you wish.
But it's funny how well that talent performed when we saw Hoyer at QB. It's just like a lot of teams that play .500 ball or better when they find a QB.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we can use upgrades in a lot of places. But after seeing how much average or above QB play effected the play of this team as a whole, trying to say we couldn't play .500 ball by simply having a competent QB I believe has a hollow sound to it.
So if you're speaking about the talent level at the QB position as the reason we aren't playing .500 ball I agree. But you seem to indicate it goes further than that, I disagree. We all saw it for a short time. Everyone upped their level of play when we had a competent QB in there.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
You can buy into the "70% talent" thing if you wish.
But it's funny how well that talent performed when we saw Hoyer at QB. It's just like a lot of teams that play .500 ball or better when they find a QB.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we can use upgrades in a lot of places. But after seeing how much average or above QB play effected the play of this team as a whole, trying to say we couldn't play .500 ball by simply having a competent QB I believe has a hollow sound to it.
So if you're speaking about the talent level at the QB position as the reason we aren't playing .500 ball I agree. But you seem to indicate it goes further than that, I disagree. We all saw it for a short time. Everyone upped their level of play when we had a competent QB in there.
upped it? they looked like a completely different team when hoyer was playing. a play off team.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Yes, QB talent is factored into that equation, including Hoyer. Regardless, we still don't have any RB's which belong on most rosters, we don't have a FB, we need at least two guards and very possibly a RT, all indicative of a pathetic running game and unless we have Manning or Brady at QB we aren't going to win without a running game. That doesn't take into account that we need at least one starting WR and possibly a slot guy, a #2 TE who can block, an ILB, possibly a #2 corner (in spite of the improved play, PFF noted that opposing QB's have put up a 90+ QB rating when throwing against Skrine this year) and our overall depth.
I'm surprised at how many people take a 2-game sample and use that as proof of anything.
It's no Cabinet Secret that the most important position on the field is QB. Not only are we lacking there but several others as well. We need to hit on every one of our moves this off-season because to believe that ALL of our players which have worked out this year will continue to do so is not being realistic.
There's a great problem fans have, which is they assume once a player has arrived or had a good season he will continue to do so the following year. We had an amazingly good season in terms of not having injuries beat us down. It's folly to assume every player who improved this year will play exactly the same or better next year.
Truly, for the first time in years, we have a legit chance to upgrade the talent in one off-season which can put us on par for a playoff push. That really hasn't been the case in years' past. But we gotta hit on our top 3 picks this off-season and whatever we spend in free agency...including our own players...will have to work out.
In spite of the tone here I'm actually optimistic, which is something I've not been in the past, being a realist and all.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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In spite of the tone here I'm actually optimistic, which is something I've not been in the past, being a realist and all.
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I'm surprised at how many people take a 2-game sample and use that as proof of anything
The only conclusion I draw from those two games is that when our field general. the QB, plays well, it elevates the rest of the teams play.
I made it quite clear that we need upgrades as well. You are right, we have no running game. You are right, we need upgrades on the OL, especially at the G position.
But when it comes to playing .500 ball, most of that lies with the QB position.
My point was more about the subject of our players being quitters and they aren't mentally tough. What I saw in those two games is that if they have a leader in the form of a QB that they can believe in, it changes the complection of their play as a team.
I understand that KC has a running game and we don't. But I believe the entire team played with a much greater intensity when the team signed Alex Smith. I saw the same thing to some extent when Hoyer played here.
So I don't debate that we need more talent in some areas. What I question is that we have a team of quitters. I believe it's far more a lack of having a leader in the form of a QB that they can believe in.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
You can buy into the "70% talent" thing if you wish.
But it's funny how well that talent performed when we saw Hoyer at QB. It's just like a lot of teams that play .500 ball or better when they find a QB.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we can use upgrades in a lot of places. But after seeing how much average or above QB play effected the play of this team as a whole, trying to say we couldn't play .500 ball by simply having a competent QB I believe has a hollow sound to it.
So if you're speaking about the talent level at the QB position as the reason we aren't playing .500 ball I agree. But you seem to indicate it goes further than that, I disagree. We all saw it for a short time. Everyone upped their level of play when we had a competent QB in there.
No offense, but Hoyer played a bad Vikings defense, (who have given up 467 points in 15 games, worst in the NFL) and a Bengals defense missing 3/4 of its secondary.
He played well ...... but there were definitely extenuating circumstances.
I am not willing to anoint him the next great NFL QB based on those 2 games. He might become a great QB, but he hadn't got there yet.
We barely beat the Vikings, and would not have without a couple of brilliant special teams plays.
We beat the Bengals by scoring 17 points. However, we played a perfectly clean game. Our FG drive in that game was a 10 play, 17 yard drive. (which hardly seems possible) We later lost to them with the worst quarter we have played all year long.
Anyway ...... I don't mind having Hoyer be a piece of the puzzle heading into next year, but I think that it would be utterly stupid for us to rely solely upon him. Some have said that we should draft a pair of QB, and go nto the year with Hoyer and a pair of rookies. To me that would be idiotic. We really and truly have no idea what Hoyer is. He looked so-so in his 1st game, and solid in his 2nd. (though we scored only 17 points) Given the situations Hoyer faced, and his results, I am not willing to proclaim him the answer.
I would go into next year with both Hoyer and Campbell, and draft a QB. I would let Hoyer and Campbell battle it out, with the loser being the primary backup. The rookie could then sit for a full year. If the starter falters, then the primary backup could step in.
JMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My point was more about the subject of our players being quitters and they aren't mentally tough. What I saw in those two games is that if they have a leader in the form of a QB that they can believe in, it changes the complection of their play as a team.
I can understand the rest, but I'd imagine you were speaking of someone elses post when talking about players quitting, as that wasn't me. Quote:
I understand that KC has a running game and we don't. But I believe the entire team played with a much greater intensity when the team signed Alex Smith. I saw the same thing to some extent when Hoyer played here.
Well, I believe much of that effect was that Hoyer wasn't Brandon Weeden, as the team seemed to rally around Campbell during that time as well. Hoyer was a breath of fresh air in doing everything that Weeden didn't. He scrambled, he got the ball out on time, and he won a game. But that conversation has already been had regarding why Hoyer was so beloved. Keep in mind there are things he does which I like, and I definitely want him on the team next year, though I won't put much stock in him becoming a starter based on two games. Quote:
So I don't debate that we need more talent in some areas. What I question is that we have a team of quitters.
Dunno who was talking about a team of quitters. I haven't seen them quit. I just don't think we have as much talent as people tend to think we do, which is more about not blaming the coaches. Truth be told, I think our defensive coaches have gotten more out of that unit than I expected to start the year.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well, I believe much of that effect was that Hoyer wasn't Brandon Weeden, as the team seemed to rally around Campbell during that time as well.
And that's the point my slimy friend,  , the team, both sides of the ball, rallies around any QB who is playing well. As you said, they rallied around Campbell too. But not so much in those games he was doing his Weeden impression by being inaccurate, throwing dump-offs and picks.
What I think I see is a team who is so damn tired of losing that they just don't know what to do anymore. We've got guys who've been here 6 years and are on their 4th coaching staff and 3rd FO and 2nd owner while never winning more than 5 games in a season.
I imagine that creates a mind-set that this is who you are as a team and it may never get any better. The fact that it hasn't gotten any better, not even a little bit, only solidifies that belief.
And the players do the same thing we do, with each major change comes hope that things will get better but they never do.
The main reason: We don't have a QB.
It's so bad that the slightest spark of quality QB play energizes the whole team and they begin to play up to their ability. But once that QB goes into his inevitable slump the energy goes in the tank. There certainly has to be a major, "What's the use  ", mentality here that only seems to respond to good QB play.
And the fans have the same mind-set and respond the same way. Hoyer becomes the savior because he comes in as the anti-Weeden and shows some spirit and spunk. He goes down and so does the team and the fans hope.
Campbell steps in and has two great games and both the team and the fans respond the same way. The players call him "Our guy". The fans decide that now we found our QB for next year so we can relax, draft a rookie and let him sit behind Campbell.
Then Campbell returns to his reality and fans want the team to lose out for the outside chance that at least we won't lose a slot position in the upcoming draft from which everyone wants that savior QB.
Hell, even Baker comes in and has an ok game and all of a sudden he's the answer heading into next year. He has another so-so game and that cements it.
We are a group of fans and players who have been mistreated by our owner for so long that whenever someone walks by and throws us a bone it gives us great hope for our future. But when they quickly run out of bones to offer us we go back into our doghouse, sulking and hoping for a loss to our hated rivals so maybe, just maybe, not losing our spot in the draft position it will get us that much closer to getting a QB with a bottomless bag full of bones.
They want this so bad that they want to lose to the Steelers. WTF?!
A quality QB will fix so many things.
However, as you've said, the QB will not fix everything. We still sorely need some position upgrades. Hell, for some positions I wouldn't even call it an upgrade since we have pretty much nothing there now. You've named some of them.
But as we all know, even if we bring in pro bowl players at positions that need upgrading, without that QB it won't make a huge difference.
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I think you summed it up nicely. I am the first to say that I certainly wouldn't anoint Hoyer as a franchise QB with the very little we saw.
I also feel that any QB that shows as competent sparks this team.
We saw it not only with the O, but with the D and ST's.
While we do have other weaknesses, what we saw I believe has shown, that we can pick at other positions all we wish if one desires. But in the end, the QB will do more for this team as a whole than anything else we could do with one position.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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There were two DE's drafted ahead of Mingo last year.
At #3 for the Fins is Dion Jordan, he has 17 tackles, 7 assists and 2 sacks.
At #5 for the Lions is Ezekiel Ansah, he has 19 tackles, 12 assists and 8 sacks.
At #6 for the Browns is Mingo, he has 28 tackles, 12 assists and 5 sacks.
Now why is it Mingo sucks?
comparing a DE to a OLB is just crazy... you may as well compare a CB to a SS.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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There were two DE's drafted ahead of Mingo last year.
At #3 for the Fins is Dion Jordan, he has 17 tackles, 7 assists and 2 sacks.
At #5 for the Lions is Ezekiel Ansah, he has 19 tackles, 12 assists and 8 sacks.
At #6 for the Browns is Mingo, he has 28 tackles, 12 assists and 5 sacks.
Now why is it Mingo sucks?
comparing a DE to a OLB is just crazy... you may as well compare a CB to a SS.
Not really.
A 4-3 DE is fairly comparable to a 3-4 OLB, and many, many 3-4 OLB were 4-3 DE in college. When a team look st pass rushers, they look at DE and OLB, and DE who can convert to a 3-4 OLB.
If we had been in position to draft Jordan, he would have been a 3-4 OLB here. Same thing with Ansah.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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