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j/c
why does everyone keep talking about finding "almost as good" player that cost less?
we have a crazy amount of cap and we need the best players we can find and pay them to play in CLE.
why not get the best FA center with Mack?
the 2nd best FA SS with Ward?
both of these guys like Cleveland and want to turn this thing around
why does it seem like so many are against signing good players that played on the Browns?
I know it hasn't often worked like this in the past 20 years but it is supposed to happen this way.
We draft players
They turn into good players
we resign them
rinse and repeat
Also, why are people talking about trading/not resigning a 7x ProBowl LT????
I feel like fans are starting to get Battered Wife Syndrome
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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I like this post.
It really is how good teams do it- isn't it?
Hmmmm... maybe lousy teams should do what good teams do.
Hey... that's so crazy, it just might work-
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Quote:
I wanted to draft him, stick him at RT and move him to LT when Joe's contract expired.
Which may have been the thinking when we drafted Schwartz. At the 2012 Senior Bowl, the NFL coaching staff moved Schwartz to LT and it was reported that he played extremely well...
Schwartz can't lock down the RT spot. I'm not going to trust the LT spot to him. If I'm the Browns, I'm looking to off-load Schwartz and recoup something from it.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I wanted to draft him, stick him at RT and move him to LT when Joe's contract expired.
Which may have been the thinking when we drafted Schwartz. At the 2012 Senior Bowl, the NFL coaching staff moved Schwartz to LT and it was reported that he played extremely well...
Schwartz can't lock down the RT spot. I'm not going to trust the LT spot to him. If I'm the Browns, I'm looking to off-load Schwartz and recoup something from it.
Stop it.
You overreact way too much. It's the guys second year and he played in a system that's not offensive linemen friendly.
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Quote:
Stop it.
You overreact way too much. It's the guys second year and he played in a system that's not offensive linemen friendly.
Not OL friendly? Turner's scheme is run the ball to set up the pass. If you're an OL and can't run block, what good are you?
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Consider this: Whisenhunt is hired as HC and brings with him, Russ Grimm as OL coach. Probably Warhop is gone...Good thing or bad thing?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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why does everyone keep talking about finding "almost as good" player that cost less?
I agree. I have been harping on the cap space issue for a long time. I don't see being way under the cap as managing anything other than managing to put your team at a disadvantage.
Managing the cap to me is spending your allocated dollars in a way that brings in or keeps the best and you have it lined out in such a way that you aren't going to run in to a bind some years down the road.
No doubt it isn't as easy as that, but we are milliions under the cap every year. Why?? 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Well the reason why is for the past 15 years, we've only had a handful of players that we actually wanted to re-sign. But I don't think it's dumb to be too under the cap now. We're going to have some players coming up (In addition to the ones we already have) who are going to be demanding top 3 money at their position (Ward, Mack, Flash, Joe Haden) and we'll also have guys who are going to be demanding top 15 (Sheard, Taylor, DQ (Maybe.), Schwartz, Rubin(Maybe.), and a few others) so we need to be thrifty right now. That said, we also have to spend ~30 million of our cap this year.
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C: Brian De La Puente--Very good center and would also be a cheaper alternative.
One guy I thought played really well last week was San Diego's second string Center, Rich Ohrnberger. He came in after Hardwick went down. Oddly enough, although not listed on the above list, he is also a free agent.
I'd prefer to have Mack everyday and twice on Sunday but I was pleasantly surprised by Ohrnberger's play last week coming off the bench. I haven't seen an injury report on today's game if Hardwick is still out. I would enjoy watching some more of him.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I think he has been awful at pass protection this year, just worse at run blocking. Did improve some at end of year. But the LT? No.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I didn't think his post was that great.
I think it would be stupid to pay top safety money, as in top 5 money, to a SS who has holes in his game.
We have already had the conversation that Ward doesn't have the coverage skills of a FS because he is a SS. Why in the world would you make your SS one of the highest paid safeties [that includes] FS's in the entire NFL?
SS is a position that is much easier to fill.
I don't think Pollard is great, but he does the same things as Ward. He is a harder hitter and plays the run game well. His coverage is lacking. We save money.
Furthermore, I don't agree w/you about how good teams keep all their players. Teams like the Steelers have let guys walk for years once they demand a big contract. They replace them w/guys they have been grooming in the system. Think about guys like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Plaxico, James Harrison, etc.
Last year, New England let Wes Welker walk. Pittsburgh let Mike Wallace walk. Baltimore let Kruger, Ellerbie, and other go. San Fran let Goldson leave in FA. Green Bay didn't keep Greg Jennings. Denver didn't keep Dumerville.
It seems to me that a lot of the
That's off the top of my head. good teams do indeed allow vets leave once they demand a big payday.
I hope we keep Mack. Ward can walk if he wants top safety money. He is not a FS. He is a SS. That's almost like comparing a guard to a LT. They should not be paid the same amount of money.
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Speaking of RB's, LeGarrette Blount sure showed up last night for the Pats; 4 TDs, 166 yds rushing. I noticed he was ranked 11th on the FA list and wondered why he wasn't higher. Read a scouting report that said he was big, fast enough (4.59), and ran downhill, but that he was a poor receiver and a surprisingly poor blocker, given his size (6-1, 250) and athleticism. Then there were the character concerns. Okay, scratch Blount.
I think, given the shelf life of NFL RBs, that we might be better off addressing this particular position in the draft rather than FA. Once in the NFL, RBs get to be 29 or 30 and just lose it overnight.
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Denver didn't keep Dumerville.
I'm nit-piking here, but take Dumervil off your list. Denver had a new contract with him but missed the deadline by 6 minutes...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Quote:
I didn't think his post was that great.
I think it would be stupid to pay top safety money, as in top 5 money, to a SS who has holes in his game.
We have already had the conversation that Ward doesn't have the coverage skills of a FS because he is a SS. Why in the world would you make your SS one of the highest paid safeties [that includes] FS's in the entire NFL?
SS is a position that is much easier to fill.
I don't think Pollard is great, but he does the same things as Ward. He is a harder hitter and plays the run game well. His coverage is lacking. We save money.
Furthermore, I don't agree w/you about how good teams keep all their players. Teams like the Steelers have let guys walk for years once they demand a big contract. They replace them w/guys they have been grooming in the system. Think about guys like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Plaxico, James Harrison, etc.
Last year, New England let Wes Welker walk. Pittsburgh let Mike Wallace walk. Baltimore let Kruger, Ellerbie, and other go. San Fran let Goldson leave in FA. Green Bay didn't keep Greg Jennings. Denver didn't keep Dumerville.
It seems to me that a lot of the
That's off the top of my head. good teams do indeed allow vets leave once they demand a big payday.
I hope we keep Mack. Ward can walk if he wants top safety money. He is not a FS. He is a SS. That's almost like comparing a guard to a LT. They should not be paid the same amount of money.
At least as far as the 2013 salaries are concerned, the top 2 safety salaries are SS (Troy and Eric Berry) So, that market for the franchise tag is currently being determined by the SS position. and 5 of the top ten salaries come from the SS. I think an argument can be made for what is easier to find in the secondary, SS or FS. But whatever. The question is not whether it is easier to replace him. It's if he is worth the money that the SS market is actually creating for the safety positions. I do not know what next year's salaries are and maybe that changes it...
But right now, the top 5 paid strong safeties are:
1. Polamalu ($7.5M)
2. Berry
3. Bethea
4. Manning
5. Whitner ($3.85)
I think Ward can easily make the argument that he can fit into this top 5 list. I also think someone like Kam Chancellor can also say it as well.
Overall safeties:
1. Troy again at 7.5M tricking down to 5. Eric Weddle at $6M
I also believe Ward, and another SS like Chancellor can make the argument of $6M/year.
Also, I don't know how you think you can get away comparing letting Ward walk up against teams letting players like Lloyd, Jennings,Greene, Burress, Harrison, etc. You're comparing apples to oranges here. Ward is entering possibly the prime of his career while those you mentioned were on their way out or past their prime. This makes absolutely zero sense. Yes, in some situations there were players they've groomed to replace those former starters....who is in place to take over for Ward?
Pats letting Welker walk? Yep. I bet NE wished they could have that one back.
Baltimore didn't "let" Ellerbe walk. They opted not to re-sign Pollard, Kruger, etc because they desperately wanted Ellerbe back. It backfired on Ozzie.
Denver didn't keep Dumervil? Revisionist history...did you forget the agent blunder? There is zero way Denver wanted to part ways with him.
Again, those players off the top your head do not equate in any way to the situation Ward is in. That doesn't mean it automatically justifies re-signing him, just that it's poor reasoning to justify letting him walk.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 01/12/14 10:08 AM.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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You guys always miss the big picture. I will do the same. Quote:
I think Ward can easily make the argument that he can fit into this top 5 list.
If he does, I let him walk. I think he is highly overrated. I don't think he is worth that type of money.
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Quote:
You guys always miss the big picture. I will do the same.
Quote:
I think Ward can easily make the argument that he can fit into this top 5 list.
If he does, I let him walk. I think he is highly overrated. I don't think he is worth that type of money.
No, believe me. I am not missing your "big picture". You make the same comment about Ward over and over again.
I'm saying I don't think its a rational argument to use the players you did to justify not signing him. Fine you don't think he's worth top 5 SS money....I happen to believe he is worth it and an argument can be made to give him a contract, in totality, that would reach top 5 of all safeties based on continuous improvement/growth. If he get's a new contract it probably wouldn't not start out at top 5 money, but as the contract matures it could easily get into that range....like all contracts eventually do.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Well...........I think my argument was fine.
I also don't have a problem w/you disagreeing w/me. Go ahead. On the other hand, I will continue to voice my opinion about the guy.
He stinks in coverage. He whiffs too often in the open field. He does make some really good plays. He is fast in a straight line. He is "okay." I would not pay him top money. And I trust my eyes more than I trust some bozos who also had Hughes ranked as our top defensive lineman.
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Quote:
Quote:
Stop it.
You overreact way too much. It's the guys second year and he played in a system that's not offensive linemen friendly.
Not OL friendly? Turner's scheme is run the ball to set up the pass. If you're an OL and can't run block, what good are you?
Usually when teams run the ball to set up the pass they don't lead the NFL in pass attempts. While that was his philosophy when he had a running game with other teams he completely abandoned it. Scheme is not the same as philosophy.
His scheme involves the QB taking the deepest drops of any team in the NFL. Thats why you saw SD struggle last year when their OL weakened. When they were strong they were a top offense. In the vertical O you have to have 2 OT's who can survive on islands because you need more time than the average QB because your routes take longer to develop.
Schwarts does a lot of things well but nothing great. He's the type of guy who needs to be a technician to stick and that takes some time to develop. When facing talent with elite capabilities in either power or speed he struggles. Not to mention he struggled in general with the change in scheme until later in the year. Give him time. He'll be fine. He's got too much going for him to be a bust.
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Consider this: Whisenhunt is hired as HC and brings with him, Russ Grimm as OL coach. Probably Warhop is gone...Good thing or bad thing?
You're question seems to have gotten lost,but I'll damned sure answer it.
My opinion of Russ Grimm is highly biased,so take it with a grain of salt,but Grimm is one of,if not the best,oline coaches in the game today.
This is not to say that Warhop did a bad job,because I don't believe he did,but.
If Whisenhunt is hired,he'll surely bring Grimm with him,that would be a bigger "get" than Chud/Turner or Chud/Horton.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I wanted Whisenhunt last year and I like Malzahn. I can only hope one of the 2 end up at the reigns. My only problem is if Whisenhunt comes in this FO just proved they aren't top notch and my confidence in them is severely lowered.
That said Grimm is definitely the best OL coach in the league. I would be ecstatic.
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Quote:
Furthermore, I don't agree w/you about how good teams keep all their players. Teams like the Steelers have let guys walk for years once they demand a big contract. They replace them w/guys they have been grooming in the system. Think about guys like Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Plaxico, James Harrison, etc.
Last year, New England let Wes Welker walk. Pittsburgh let Mike Wallace walk. Baltimore let Kruger, Ellerbie, and other go. San Fran let Goldson leave in FA. Green Bay didn't keep Greg Jennings. Denver didn't keep Dumerville.
It seems to me that a lot of the
That's off the top of my head. good teams do indeed allow vets leave once they demand a big payday.
I agree with this. But it's an apple to orange comparison.
We aren't a "great team". We need to see a "great team built". Teams like the Patriots and Steelers were great teams over a long period of time. They had the opportunity we haven't had.
they had stability in coaching and systems for a very long time. they could draft players and develop those players within the same system setting themselves up with the option of replacing veterans with that developed talent.
We have been devoid of those options. changing HC's, systems, huge roster turnovers with each regime. That is a great hindrance to anything that resembles the ability to develop talent to "plug in" at a moments notice.
Just look at the bottom half of our roster this past season. The turnover was huge. That's not the Steeler or the Patriots.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Thanks to you and "predator" for your input on Grimm... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I think good teams keep their good players...what makes them good is anticipation of a big contract in their not so prime part of their career but in that anticipation they had made a investments n groomed a a season or two for that player to actually be an upgrade on the player n his leaving his prime years if not the next year soon after.
The other cases where they are let go...and WR is probably the most common not held onto (which reinforces my opinion that they are way over rated) but other positions but many are let go cause of Cap issues.
CBs n aging Pro Bowl OGs are sometimes let go cause OG is a position that does not have a rare skill set needed so they replace them easier than other positions. CB simply because the FA Market has gone crazy and it just is hard to re-sign them to a reasonable coast.
But I don't see a Center in our midst that can upgrade Mack...we should sign him although we could get by with Greco I guess.
Ward...I do not see anyone close to his skill set on our roster to take over...we are not in cap trouble if we were not planning to sign him we had to have another waiting in the wings...unless Lombardi is that confident that the somebody is Slaughter who was on our practice Squad??? that is a big leap of faith.
Now the only thing I have to say on letting Ward walk is that if we feel his value will diminish with the NEW DEFENSE we will bring in here. I think he was perfect for Horton's D. What I would hate...to see him signed by the Steelers and be a thorn in our side! Ward is IN HIS PRIME...we should sign players who are good and the length of the contract is entirely in the PRIME TIME part of their Career. Pretty much anyone of our players considered good we should sign them!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Well the reason why is for the past 15 years, we've only had a handful of players that we actually wanted to re-sign. But I don't think it's dumb to be too under the cap now. We're going to have some players coming up (In addition to the ones we already have) who are going to be demanding top 3 money at their position (Ward, Mack, Flash, Joe Haden) and we'll also have guys who are going to be demanding top 15 (Sheard, Taylor, DQ (Maybe.), Schwartz, Rubin(Maybe.), and a few others) so we need to be thrifty right now. That said, we also have to spend ~30 million of our cap this year.
Like I said, I understand you need to manage things and have all contracts lined out, knowing who's will be due in what year...then you plan ahead.
Being millions a year, year after year tells me we aren't trying hard enough. Sure, I know, you build through the draft, but you also use FA to build your team. If you're not, you are in a disadvantaged position.
My theory is use every means possible to get better.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
He stinks in coverage. He whiffs too often in the open field. He does make some really good plays. He is fast in a straight line. He is "okay." I would not pay him top money.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_tj_ward_irked.html
The website ProFootballFocus.com rates Ward as the league’s second-best overall safety behind New England’s Devin McCourty. A season ago, Ward was sixth-best, according to the site.
In terms of quarterback passer rating when a ball is thrown into a coverage area, Ward ranks 10th among safeties this season, according to ProFootballFocus.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/19019...-this-offseason
Pro Football Focus' (subscription required) fourth-ranked safety this season.
To Ward's credit, this is the second straight season he's played at a high level. He was Pro Football Focus' (subscription required) sixth-ranked safety in 2012
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5877/tj-ward
Impending free agent SS T.J. Ward hopes to re-sign with the Browns.
"I definitely want to be back,'' Ward said. "I like my team. I love my teammates. I love being in this city. I love the organization. We haven’t had many wins, but I think we’re building something here, and I think it’s being built the right way." Ward's gushing did not stop there. Ward is in the midst of another strong season, grading out as Pro Football Focus' No. 4 safety while racking up 105 tackles, 1.5 sacks and two interceptions. His interest in staying in Cleveland is almost certainly mutual. Ward is a strong candidate for the franchise tag.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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I would look hard at Darren McFadden on a one year contract. He is always injured but is also very talented. If we could pair him with another back to save some wear and tear I think he would be a great option.
Why is Jones-Drew rated behind Rashad Jennings and Andre Brown?
If Maclin is fully healthy I think he should be a target, although there are supposedly many talented wide receivers in the upcoming draft.
As was the case last year, there are many talented corners available. Hopefully this year we can get one of them.
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McFadden would be a great 3rd down back. I'm not sure I'd trust him to be much more than that given his history.
#gmstrong
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Why do you keep posting the same articles. We all have read them. What do they prove?
Do you think those guys are going to change what I see?
Sorry. I know the game well enough and you aren't going to convince me w/crap like that. I am not asking you to agree w/me. I am not asking anyone to agree w/me. However, I am not going to agree w/you when I know better.
Ward is okay. He makes some plays. He is strong. He is big. He makes some dynamite plays. He is good straight-line speed. I am not saying he stinks. I am saying his coverage is terrible. I am saying he is often out of position. I am saying he does not cover as many TEs and RBs as he should due to his deficiencies in coverage. I am saying he whiffs on too many tackles.
I've watched all his games. I know what I have seen.
Again, it does not upset me that you don't agree w/me. But, your articles and you guys acting like I am clueless are not going to dissuade me from voicing my opinion.
I don't want us to overspend for an average SS.
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No one is trying to change your mind. We are just going to let you be wrong.
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Yep, the masses have been right so many times and I have been wrong so many times. 
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I am glad you are keeping score.
Ward, according to people who write about and watch football for a living, is anywhere from the best strong safety to the eigth best safety in the NFL (that is an estimate). Pay the man.
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vers, people are really just trying to make the point that we have talent, why create more holes on a team filled with plenty of it?
you sign the players that produce, not let them walk.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I have to keep score when people like you tell me how stupid I am. But, of course, when things play out.............none of you wanna hear it.
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I never said he doesn't have talent. How in the heck do you NOT see the positives I wrote about him? Sheesh! This is why I quit replying to you! I said he had good points. You ignore them.
I said I would not pay him top safety dollar. I said that I think free safeties should be paid higher and usually are. They are more important to the defense than a SS. I said that finding an adequate SS is easier to find than a FS. I said that the guy is okay. I said I would not pay him top dollar. That's what this is about. I am NOT saying he stinks. I am saying he doesn't deserve that much money.
You don't win by overpaying for average talent.
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,481 |
dude calm down. i didn't say anything aggressive to you, just saying my case.
and if YOU haven't notice, i agree with you about not playing him top dollar, but he does deserve top 10 saftey money.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
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~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Quote:
Why is Jones-Drew rated behind Rashad Jennings and Andre Brown?
Because people are assuming that he's broken down because he didn't have a good year this year (by MJD standards).
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
What is top dollar in your mind? Also, how much he gets paid depends on the market. If the market is bereft of safeties he will get paid more. If the market has ten quality options he will not get paid as much (like all the quality corners last off-season getting one year deals).
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
I have to keep score when people like you tell me how stupid I am. But, of course, when things play out.............none of you wanna hear it.
No one is saying you are stupid. Just wrong. Smart people are wrong all the time. Your best friend Joe Banner is thought to be a smart man and he was wrong in hiring Rob Chudzinski (according to him).
And things did play out. T.J. Ward had his finest season yet and made multiple All-Pro teams. It seems like you are the one that does not want to hear it.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I am not a cap guy. Not even close. I have zero expertise in that area of football.
With that said, I think that guys who sign new contracts get more money, thus.......I can see Ward making more money than he actually deserves. It's the nature of the business. It's similar to us signing Kruger and Bryant. New contracts = more money.
So, I could understand paying him more than guys who are more valuable. I really haven't put a set number on it, but I am saying there is no way that I would pay him top 1 to 5 safety money, and I am including all safeties.
I would have no problem if we pay him top 10 money. I don't really think he is top 10, but that is just my opinion. However, it's a new contract and that is just the way it is.
Again, I am not a cap or salary guy. That's just the way it seems to me.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
You can say I am wrong............but, we have been down this road many, many times.
Weren't you one of the guys so upset w/me for pointing out who was right and who was wrong in regards to evaluating certain players?
You can't tell me I am wrong. Well, you can. And you have. However, I do know football. I don't know much about a lot of things, but I do know football. Made a living off of the game. I know what I have seen w/Ward.
And again............I am not saying he stinks. He does some things well. I just think he isn't that hard to replace.
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