DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum HC search part deuce

Well, mcdaniels is out.

Gruden went to the redskins.

Franklin went to penn state I guess? Or something?

Lovie went to Tampa bay.

So who do we have left? Are we gonna get the same speech about " this is the guy we targeted from the start"? Cause it sure doesn't seem that way

If its Gase. Then you'll definitely hear that line.

The press conforence for whomever excepts the next serverance package will be fun. Especially when Chuds time limit is brought up.

Of the guys we've talked to, McDaniels is the only guy that is officially off the table.. or at least he says he is...

The Franklin situation is weird, all things point to him going to PSU but I haven't heard that PSU has actually made him an offer yet.

the other guys the Browns have interviewed or shown interest in are still in the playoffs.. except for Todd Bowles and I hate to think he was just a Rooney Rule interview but you never know.

WHo would consider this mess unless they have no options? We will have to hire the asistant ticket taker.

On a brighter note I heard an interview with coach Tressel and he said his options were open. He is much too good for this mess. If Haslam fires Banner and Lombardi and then hires Tressel...followed by Haslam being indited and having to sell the team we will be on the road to recovery.

Quiet a senerio but it could happen.

I'll take the job.

I'm going to go out on a limb (ok, maybe not) and say they're going to hire Wisenhunt and he keeps both Turner and Horton and the brass talks about the continuity of having the same coordinators.

Nix the stooges talk. It sounds dumb and is insulting to the team I like. You sound like you root for another team.



If you root for the Browns, you are a Browns fan. If not, you will continue the stooge talk.



JMO, but it is firm....Just saying.

Fixed.

I support the team, but still feel at least Banner and Lombardi are buffoons. Out of respect for you both, and our fellow board members, I'll refrain moving forward.

He fixed it Vers....good is good.. We don't have to agree with everything. I am fond of the word simpleton....and have applied it to the team or team members from time to time.


My problem with the stooge comment is it was applied in a direct question to the owner, even if the "stooge" said it wasn't his words.


That's not a "news guy" asking questions..that's a simpleton with a press pass.


Show some respect, even when you disagree is my theory.

Vers, I feel the same as you. A lot of "Browns fans" are so quick to trash anything and everything with team (even though a good portion of it is warranted). But as of now, I'm still cool with the owner and FO. Sure the record didn't improve, but I think the team got better. I'm willing to still wear my gear and smile for a few more years before I start trashing them.

Heck, the TRich trade should have everyone smiling from ear to ear until May. That was highway robbery. I knew people would be eating crow with all the "factory of sadness", "tank for Teddy" and "we just traded our only offensive star" following the trade. I'm STILL stunned we got their first rounder (even if it is going to be a late pick).

I know he fixed it and I thought that was nice.

Anyways, my post wasn't really directed towards him. I just used his quote as springboard to address the mob.

I usually don't post "small," Peen. You know that, right?

Uh oh..............someone agrees w/me?

People post their opinions on here.

Regaurdless of what they are, it's not going to change what happens, but it's still their opinion.

If someone thinks the FO is a bunch of bumbling idiots, good for them, most people that post "THESE GUYS ARE DOLTS LOLSMILEYFACE" probably don't have anything to really talk about anyways...

Do I think the FO is "Great"? No, they've made some good deals (Pitts 3rd, T Rich, Hoyer) some that make you say "eh, whatever" (Keeping Weeden, I don't blame them, it seemed like a "not bad" idea based on the offense we ran) and some moves that just make you go Huh? (firing a coach after his first season)

And they're ganna bring out a new HC and say all the nice things they said last year.

But their leash is A LOT shorter now. I'm not saying they have to win so and so amount of games, because I think that's silly.

But with this fan base, another season with double digit losses, and those seats aren't going to be so full (with Brown fans anyways)

You want to break out new uniforms, new big screens, all that stuff, that's cool.

Put out a winning team, not even a SB Contender yet, just a team that goes out there, and when I watch, I can't predict the ending.

I've seen this movie before. I'd like a new release... Not a remake...

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We acquired our best defensive lineman in free agency when we signed Bryant. Stooges.

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Yup, we paid big money to acquire a Defensive Lineman with KNOWN HEART PROBLEMS...trust me...that showed up on his physical...anyone with heart problems like Bryant has would have shown up on a physical.....If a Vet can tell my dog had a heart murmur and was going into CHF with nothing more then listening to her heart(Thank god we caught it in time and her medicine saved her life, she is only 5), then the DR's surely knew Bryant had heart problems when he took his physical...and we signed him anyway....that was a moronic move...that's the reason the Raiders let him walk....

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We got a pick for Colt McCoy. Stooges

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Colt McCoy wasn't "that bad" sure he wans't a starting QB, but if he is good enough to be a backup in San Fran, then he was good enough to be a backup here...I do believe Colt beat out a few other guys for that spot....aren't we exaggerating here just a bit? Colt was a fine value in the 3rd rd for a "Backup QB".

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We have attracted some of the brightest FO people in the business. We took guys from the Cowboys and other places. Idiots!!!

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Yup and past regimes have brought in people from Parcells staff, From the Patriots staff, From the Eagles Staff, etc....and the results were no different...I wouldn't exactly call this a ringing endorsement. Heckert and Holmgren, whom I despised, brought in some pretty high rated scouts and such too and that didn't work out to well either.

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Was it because of the TRich trade? How many carries did he have in their playoff game? What happened when he did carry? We got a first for TRich. Stooges. Buffoons.

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Its way too soon for the Trich trade....The guy is only in his second year for petes sakes. It way too soon to call the kid a bust.....He seems like a hard working guy, you never know next year he could have a break out season and make the Pro Bowl, and what we get out of the draft pick we got will decide who is the winner and who is the loser....wait 3 years, and then lets revisit this....Trich is just now finished his second season, its not "uncommon" for a player to take a step back year two, and bound forward in year 3...Trich showed talent his rookie year...and scored a boatload of TD and caught quite a lot of passes.....sure this year Trich wasn't that great, but 1 year does a bust not make....as I said...3 years from now will tell the tale on who benefited most from that trade....wouldn't it suck though if we gave up on a good player like San Diege did with Brees...you just never know.

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We gave Cameron, Skrine, and Gipson a shot at starting and saved money for overrated free agents like Huff. So stupid.

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I think that's called give players you believe have "Some talent" to develop in an evaluation year...its not some strok eof genius to allow these guys to play....how do you know what you have unless you let them play? they can't identify areas of upgrades until they see what they actually have....this is not some smart move, its just 1st year roster evaluations done by all new FO and coaching staffs when they come into the gig.

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Here is what I think...............there were so many people on this board in love w/H and H and were livid that they were fired by the new regime. They have been waiting for them to make one bad move so they could say........."I told you so."

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Please, I don't speak for many, but I couldn't stand Holmgren and Heckert...I couldn't wait till they were gone, I would have volunteered to pakc their bags and drive them to the airport for petes sake....there were very few people who support H&H in 2012 that I can remember.

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Well.....we fired a coach who lost 10 out of his last 11 games. He actually had a worse record than Passive Pat, who coached a less talented team. They had Brandon Weeden at QB for 15 games. They had Usama Young at FS. Our team regressed instead of progressing throughout the year. But yeah, our FO is a bunch of buffoons and/or The Three Stooges.

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This is flawed logic if I ever seen one. Your not even considering the "human capital" part of the equation...our team as well as the teams we played from year to year were vastly different, our roster had quite a bit of changes, new players added, other players removed...its not an apples-to-apples comparison....and who knows, Chud may have won a game or 2 more had Gordon not been suspended....there is a ton of variables here, and your comparing Shurmur's team (that had 2 years in Shurmur's system) to Chud's 1st year, and Shurmur didn't have to play 3 different QB like Chud did....as for Weeden, it was obvious this year that he just didn't care because he knew he was gone, read his body language from last year to this year...as much as I hated Weeden, last year the guy actually tried, this year after he was benched he just didn't care and didn't put any effort in at all....what your comparing is simply just not fair to either side.

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So, you and most others on this board, think they are The Three Stooges and buffoons. Why?

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Because they knee-jerked with Chud....its just bad form all around to hire a guy and then fire him after one season. Do you really think a stable team like the Steelers would fire their coach after just one season? Of course not! that's why their team is winners, and ours are losers....Chuck Knoll went 1-15 his first season...he posted 3 straight losing seasons...yet the Rooney's stayed the course...Cowher had back to back losing seasons in 98 and 99 and yet they stayed the course....Tomlin could have went 1-15 his rookie year as HC and the Rooney's still would not have fired him...because the Rooney's understand that it takes "time" to build something and you actually have to give the guy "a fair chance"

Chud did not get a fair shake...he was handed a crap roster, with crap QB and a crap running game and told to polish a turd into a diamond...its simply not going to happen....a big reason we won more games last year over this year is because our leading rushing had 950 yards by himself, our leading rusher this year only had 377...we at least had "the threat" of somewhat a running attack...a running attack that this year was non-existent....no one is going to win more then 4 games with no running game at all, we are lucky we didn't go 1-15 or 0-16 with no running game at all....

, I am not saying this Front Office can't redeem itself, but right now, on the outside looking in, our owner looks like a buffoon.....I have friends from all over that are fans of various teams, from Cali to Boston and my cell phone went nuts with hundreds of messages from my friends, old college buddies, etc all asking me how we ended up with such a moronic owner.....Many fans from other teams even think Jimmy knee jerked and is in over his head...

Why are you blindly defending this guy? You may retort well we have to "give him a chance"...did he, you, or anyone else give Chud "a chance"? trust works both ways.

Jimmy has shown no reason for ANY Browns fan to trust him, in fact he has shown quite the opposite that Browns fans should not trust him...he praised Chud as the man he was looking for, and then turned around and kicked him to the curb....Jimmy is going to get a bad rap of an owner that "talks out both sides of his mouth" and is someone who shouldn't be trusted.

regardless,. I bet the coach we end up with will be the idiot that is stupid enough to take the job...Any coach that cares about his career, wants to be in the NFL for a long time, and wants to be successful will not come to the Browns under current conditions...there is a reason Cowher, Jimmy Johnson, Mooch, etc laugh at us...these are coaches...Coaches are a tight knit fraternity....if those guys are laughing at us...you can bet other coaches and coordinators are too....

As I said...we will end up with the poor schmuck that is dumb enough to accept the job, and I doubt that will be a top candidate....most likely this guy will wake up in the morning with a hangover and say to his wife "I agreed to what!?

If I have a dog, and I love that dog, and my dog pees on the carpet. I'm allowed to be mad at the dog, regardless of my love for it...

The Browns pee on the carpet a lot...

Back to the coaches talk...

I feel like we may be late to the dance on Whisenhunt though if we stay in the NFL he is my top choice. I think he is the best available coach that is an NFL guy. He's done it, he's won a super bowl and he lost a super bowl by a toe. He got screwed by a bad QB situation and would make sure we take the necessary steps to not let that happen this time. Also...I think he would retain Horton being that Horton was his guy when he was in AZ. Norv...I doubt...and I'm glad...his offense has seemed to have gone the way of the traditional WCO in that it just is too easily defended. As the game has changed...his passing routes just havent kept up and are too easily covered.


If we dont...

I still have a wishlist of Dantonio and Malzahn...Though I dont see it.

I think your post is very fair and the question was a good one to ask. I've pretty much written Moby Dick below, sorry, I had a lot of thoughts. The great thing about this is that while writing it, I did a little research and found a few things I've read (on here or other sites) to be inconsistent. I've removed those from my response because I'm not convinced on what is accurate either way.

A quick summary of my reply in case you don't want to read the whole thing:
a) it is my thoughts alone, I can't speak for anyone else
b) in the little research, in my writing, and in your comments, I realized that maybe buffoons is a little bit strong. I have little respect for Banner or Lombardi or what they've done in their careers. More for Banner than Lombardi, but I've grown to dislike him much more significantly than Lombardi in the last year.
c) while each of your comments have merit, I disagree with some of them
d) perception, perception, perception


I can’t speak for anyone other than myself. First, responses to your comments:

+Not the Richardson trade, I was actually ok with it. However, let’s not turn this into something that it isn’t – the Colts reached out to the Browns, not the other way. It took guts to pull off the trade, but it was documented that he didn’t have the explosion the staff was looking for anyway; they thought the 1st rounder was of more value than they put on Richardson, so they made the deal. Opportunistic and gutsy for sure, and it looks like they may have been right about him, but it is still early.

+Turning a 5th (139) into a 4th (123, I believe) and a 4th (111) into a 3rd (83, I believe) were both good moves long term, kudos to them. Short term we needed more talent. If they convert these picks into quality players, then I’ll give them credit when it is due.

+McCoy and a 6th (173) rounder for a 5th and 7th rounder (164 and 227) ... when looked at those spots using the trade value chart turns McCoy’s value into about 5 points (approx the 216th pick in the draft). That we got anything for Colt is a good thing, though the value we got is hardly worth even mentioning.

+I agree on the FO moves as a whole. I’ll add the Chud hiring to that as well, and will even go so far as Horton and Turner too.

+Offseason moves of acquiring Bryant and Hoyer were good moves. Campbell, meh, 57% completion rate and 1-7 doesn’t do much for me. David Nelson, Kellen Davis, Rashad Butler, Shayne Graham were all wastes. Kruger was ok.

+What other options were there to give Cameron, Skrine, and Gipson a shot at starting? Cameron was mentioned by many talking heads as prime for a breakout season, so that wasn’t anything special by the FO. Gipson’s season was incredibly unremarkable – for example protoofballfocus rated him as the #42 safety – hardly something to brag about. Skrine definitely improved in year 2.

+No "I told you so" from me. I liked the hiring of Holmgren and was wrong there. I liked the hiring of Heckert and he provided some good talent. He was canned and I moved on. Just like I have from Chud at this point.

+I want to add one more to your list. Banner: “I just want to add that as unpopular or undesirable for us to be sitting here right now and acknowledging that we didn’t get it right, I think the fact that we are making this change makes a statement that we’re not going to accept not being really successful. Whether you agree with the decision or not, that’s an important message for our fans to hear. It may be one of the things that we feel will make a difference as we go forward. We are going to demand of everybody, especially and starting with ourselves, that we be successful. If we’re not, we’re going to do what we need to do to get there.” .................................It is an important message to hear as a fan, and I have to give them credit for this statement



Then why???

1) Banner has at least a bit of a track record. Well, I guess Lombardi does too, but it certainly isn’t a very good one.

2) Not re-signing Phil Dawson (This one is more heart than head). Good for Phil though, he’s now won a playoff game, and hopefully for him, a lot more.

3) Davone Bess – the trade was one thing, but the extension? This for the guy who ended up 2nd from bottom in dropped passes. I’ll though give the guy and the FO a break on this one; he is/was going through some personal stuff deep enough to have him leave the team for personal issues. These personal issues may have played a huge role in his poor season.

4) Scouting – If I recall correctly, 3 of the 4 college scouts they brought in had no experience being NFL scouts.

5) 2013 draftees – unspectacular at best, though I’ll give it some time. Even Banner admitted this in the Chud firing news conference. Looking at the offseason as a whole, here’s how Banner described it “I think if you took the players that we added, if you took them comprehensively – undrafted free agents, people we claimed, people we drafted, in free agency – if you look at the teams that we played over the last five or six weeks and compare it, I think we’ll stack up OK in terms of what we added for 2013.” ..............................OK is good enough when you’re focused on getting it right? OK means that the team should be performing at a higher level? OK is setting a coach up for success?



and the perception part...

6) Firing a rookie coach after 11 months. Sure the team underperformed, and one that was more talented than previous teams, but not significantly. The 2nd youngest team in the league also had a new offense and a new defense, had 3 different quarterbacks of which one performed well, an average FA class overall, and an average at best draft. Also seemed to lack a plan at running back after trading away Richardson. Also were heavily rumored to be interested in trading their best asset (arguably) in Gordon. He wasn’t given a heck of a lot to prove he was the right guy. He did prove that he was very well liked by the team, and the team played hard for him.

7) Not having the GM even at the press conference looked terrible. Enough so that they were asked about it. Banner hadn’t even thought of it? Really?

8) Wisenhunt wasn’t the right guy last year after 2 interviews….and Banner specifically said "I don’t think there will be anybody from last year’s search who will be a candidate this year.” Now a couple weeks later maybe Wisenhunt is the right guy and we will interview him???

9) Maybe Ben Mcadoo is the guy that will bring us 10 championships, who knows…, but it is kind of hard to fathom that the brass talks of getting it right this time, and they’re interviewing a guy that hasn’t ever even been a coordinator? Just because it worked with Andy Reid doesn’t mean it will work again. While I like what I’ve read about him, it seems like a huge gamble if he were to be hired. One that would pretty much guarantee Banner be fired and fans revolt.

10) Salary Cap – at one point we had the most salary cap room in the NFL last offseason. We’re near the top again. While I want the team to be careful the way they spend in free agency, there were many, many holes to be filled. As well, we have to spend over a certain amount over a 3 or 4 year period (I don’t recall which specifically). By not spending, we will have to make up for it, so why not get more quality when you have the opportunity? (My understanding of the cap floor is that 89% of the cap must be spent on average for the 3 or 4 years – so for example if the cap were to be 125M for each of the 4 years in the term, we’d have to spend at least 445M in that time period (89% of 500M). If we’re $20M under after year 1 of the term, 20M of the 55M gap between cap and floor is gone, so we have to retain an average of less than 11.67M under cap the next 3 years). At minimum, why not re-sign Mack and Ward while you have the money?

11) I watched the Chud firing presser, and both Haslam and Banner came across as completely arrogant. Banner answered some questions, but many were the same thing over and over regardless of the question. He also has spoken out of both sides of his mouth many times. He came across as a pompous BS artist.

12) I don’t live in the Cleveland area any longer, and work at a company where within 25 or so feet of my desk I have avid Bears, 49ers, Seahawks, Chargers, Ravens, Broncos, and Pats fans (I know I forgot someone) and have a couple fellow Browns fans in the building as well. The reaction to the firing was unanimous from those that came to me after the firing (each of those mentioned) – he didn’t deserve to be fired (for many of the reasons called out above), he wasn’t given a fair chance, the team looks even worse than usual for doing this, and that the city and fans deserve more than they’ve been given (by this and previous regimes).

Trading down is only a good move when positions of need are not there. You can trade a 2nd for a 1st every year, but that doesn't mean it's the right move.

I love the Browns, but I'm totally over this crap. I am losing interest in the Browns, and us being so terrible and pathetic is also making me lose interest in the NFL in general.

While being a Browns fan sucks, the fact that I've become an NFL/Football fan in general I think helps...

Yeah, we never make the playoffs, but I still LOVE playoff football (gambling helps too)

I'm the kind of guy that watches the ENTIRE NFL Draft...

I eat it up. Love it all. It helps when you're teams good. But hurts because, well, they suck...

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Because they knee-jerked with Chud

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I disagree with this. Whether you agree or disagree with Chud being fired, I don't think it was knee-jerk. Knee-jerk is firing the coach after a 30 pt. loss in week 5 or 6. This is firing a guy after he lost 10 of 11 games. I just don't see it as knee-jerk. Just because many were surprised that it happened doesn't necessarily qualify it for knee-jerk.

I don't think we are dealing with the three stooges anymore. I see it as one sincere owner, one stooge in Banner, and a buffoon in Lombardi. Maybe I can make up a word for that collection of individuals. I'll give that some thought.

Vers, you love to point out all the good things this FO did...the TRich trade, trading up in this years draft, etc. You are 100% right. They've done some good things. They've also done some bad things. It has been reported that Banner and Lombardi have created a toxic environment in Berea filled with mistrust. Hell, Haslam has had to become so hands on because he is losing confidence in these guys. You have to look at the whole picture. Even H&H did some good things among the bad. I do not care that they are gone but you only focus on their warts excluding the positives and do the exact opposite with the current guys.

The bottom line is I don't think Banner and Lombardi are going anywhere this season. We are all fans of this team, and I'm sure everyone's hope is that they are successful. That is mine. Accountability will be at an all time high this year. Haslam is going to be very involved....he's NOT a Jerry Jones type...huge misconception on this board...he knows what he doesn't know...he's going to listen to smart people...and he's going to hold his guys accountable. Hopefully Banner and Lombardi respond favorably.