Vers..I do have to disagree with you with regards to Banner & Co holding themselves accountable. If they held themselves to the standards as which Chud was judged, I would have expected Banner and Haslem to say during the presser things like "While we don't feel we made the right choice, we need to fully support our coach. We all need to be on the sam page" "We made a mistake in signing the GB receiver whom already had a torn ACL." "Our actions of constantly shuffling the back end of the roster were a contributing factor to special teams break downs."
I could go on. But that to me is holding yourself accountable and admitting failure. Instead, Banner makes a statement in the presser that to me, completely contradicts himself when he says something along the lines of, "we feel like we brought in significant talent through both the draft and FA." And, when questioned why those players didn't contribute to wins or progress Banner stated, again paraphrasing, "we had significant injuries to key personnel." So to me, they are absolving themselves of the failed effort, but not Chud.
I'm not a Chud fan or foe. I've said before, their decision making ability is what concerns me.
When it was reported that a rift occurred when the FO wanted Chud to cut Little to send a message to show accountability and Chud refused, the question to me would be why not suggest to cut Bess? Little seemingly was hard worker. Bess on the other hand, was second in the league in dropped passes and single handedly cost the team a game in KC. Now, he's off posting multiple pics of himself on Instagram with references to pot and in my opinion, quit the team. Why not cut that loser? Because he was a Lombardi/Banner guy?
Those are a few reasons I do not trust or have little faith at all in this FO. Hope I'm wrong.
Quote: I heard he said they had things setup to control a young coach...where they picked his assistants and the roster.
I heard the same thing. It was reported by a Phoenix sports guy named Jude LaCava, who interviewed Whisenhunt after the two meetings he had with the Browns last year. I also heard that Haslam was very interested in hiring Whisenhunt (remember the Pittsburgh link) but that Banner had misgivings because Whisenhunt wasn't the type who could be "controlled". The guy took a team to a Super Bowl; he wasn't going to agree to be Joe Banner's pool boy. The fact that they are interviewing him again doesn't bode well for Banner, imo. I hope Haslam meets with Whisenhunt alone.
Quote: I heard he said they had things setup to control a young coach...where they picked his assistants and the roster.
I heard the same thing. It was reported by a Phoenix sports guy named Jude LaCava, who interviewed Whisenhunt after the two meetings he had with the Browns last year. I also heard that Haslam was very interested in hiring Whisenhunt (remember the Pittsburgh link) but that Banner had misgivings because Whisenhunt wasn't the type who could be "controlled". The guy took a team to a Super Bowl; he wasn't going to agree to be Joe Banner's pool boy. The fact that they are interviewing him again doesn't bode well for Banner, imo. I hope Haslam meets with Whisenhunt alone.
Even if Banner is there, that might be the best thing..for him to see that he cannot operate like he has and that he has to yield. The owner wants to make amends with KW and it appears he's getting his chance to do so I say this in this manner although they all had a hand to play in this mess..but it's appearing more and mpre that Banner wants to control too much and he can't do that. He needs to step back..and notice how the McDaniel thing went? Did U hear he was disappointed that he wasn't the frontrunner? Who led him to believe he was? Lombardi..now that was squashed because Haslem wasn't going to let those two hire anyone he wasn't on board with..he wanted to interview people he was interested in and is going to. Kw was someone of interest last year and here we are ..one year later..
I'll go a step further and say that I think Haslam might feel like the men working for him are trying to manipulate him. In the Chud-firing news conference, I got the sense that Haslam was very angry. He would be wise to wonder if he can actually trust either Banner or Lombardi, and he may be looking for a real football guy that he trusts to advise him. It could be a great opportunity for KW to have a dominant role in the Browns' hierarchy.
Manipulate,,,I think take advantage of..they know he isn't a experienced owner so they could things as they want. Problem for them he's wide awake now. And he's watching them..And he's already interceded in the HC search.
Quote: Vers..I do have to disagree with you with regards to Banner & Co holding themselves accountable. If they held themselves to the standards as which Chud was judged, I would have expected Banner and Haslem to say during the presser things like "While we don't feel we made the right choice, we need to fully support our coach. We all need to be on the sam page" "We made a mistake in signing the GB receiver whom already had a torn ACL." "Our actions of constantly shuffling the back end of the roster were a contributing factor to special teams break downs."
I could go on. But that to me is holding yourself accountable and admitting failure. Instead, Banner makes a statement in the presser that to me, completely contradicts himself when he says something along the lines of, "we feel like we brought in significant talent through both the draft and FA." And, when questioned why those players didn't contribute to wins or progress Banner stated, again paraphrasing, "we had significant injuries to key personnel." So to me, they are absolving themselves of the failed effort, but not Chud.
I'm not a Chud fan or foe. I've said before, their decision making ability is what concerns me.
When it was reported that a rift occurred when the FO wanted Chud to cut Little to send a message to show accountability and Chud refused, the question to me would be why not suggest to cut Bess? Little seemingly was hard worker. Bess on the other hand, was second in the league in dropped passes and single handedly cost the team a game in KC. Now, he's off posting multiple pics of himself on Instagram with references to pot and in my opinion, quit the team. Why not cut that loser? Because he was a Lombardi/Banner guy?
Those are a few reasons I do not trust or have little faith at all in this FO. Hope I'm wrong.
Agree with your reasoning and your skepticism.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
The six posts above IMO are spot on. And why alot of fans are beyond upset with the FO. I sure hope that Haslam is wise to what the other two seem to have been up to for the last 15 months.
The powers that be MUST walk the talk and "get it right". There will not be a next time for these guys if Haslam is as hot headed as he was in firing Chud. Hopefully that does not net us another rookie or re-tread coach.
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
Quote: Hopefully that does not net us another rookie or re-tread coach.
What else is there?
HA! True. I meant I just do not want to end up with someone with no track record at all. Been there done that several times. Or anyone who has held several HC jobs and nothing to show for it.
Who? I have no idea...Really. I do not know if there is going to be anyone left by the time the FO decides who they have as "The Guy".
I do not have any preference on who they pick out of the potential candidates.
I would prefer KW over Schwartz. I am glad that McDaniels is no longer in the running. Do not know enough about Auburns coach. Meh. Seems a lot like we are going to end up with either KW or yet another coordinator cutting his teeth in Cleveland.
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
Well, just when I had hopes for this thread actually being a good thread where we all could learn............it digressed back into the same old tired crap.
As I've said before, I think that Haslam was the one who pulled the plug on Chud. Maybe Lombardi and Chud had cut off communication, but I feel like it was more than that. Jimmy has a billion dollar business and he believed he had to pull the plug on the CEO/Face of the franchise.
Did any of you guys catch that stat on the NFL channel tonight? They didn't connect it to the Browns or Chud, but it hit me.
Carolina was first in the league in big plays two years ago.
They were second last year.
This year they were something like last. Chud comes here and Gordon explodes with big plays. Just thinking.
Hey, big plays don't equal wins.
Time to move on.
Who are you guys pimping for HC? Seems like there isn't anybody stepping out and putting themselves on the line. We all are more afraid of what we are going to get than excited about the potential for positive change.
Chud didn't coach the defense at Carolina. That's why they lost so many games last year and won so many games this year.
We've interviewed 5 coaches so far and none of them sound like front runners or #1 choices. Maybe KW changes that today, but I doubt it. I feel like this team is really set on either Gase or trying to get GM to coach the team.
I did mention him earlier, but couldnt remember his name, just said I'd be all for a young Coach, works well with QB's..I.E. Manziel...Offensive minded...
Again, if you're Haslam: what's the point of keeping two lame duck "decision makers", when you don't trust them to make the decisions they got hired and paid for and you consult "outside sources and opinions" on a big org decision like a HC hire?
If Chud was held accountable for starting Weeden over Hoyer and got fired, shouldn't Banner/Lombo held accountable to go with Chud over Whisenhunt, who apparently was Haslam's choice already a year ago?
I just don't see the benefit of keeping those two around anymore. If anything they can seriously mess up the offseason by going all-in win mode to save their butts….think Ireland-Dolphins last offseason.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: Manipulate,,,I think take advantage of..they know he isn't a experienced owner so they could things as they want. Problem for them he's wide awake now. And he's watching them..And he's already interceded in the HC search.
I agree. As I said a few days ago I think the move to dismiss Chud was mostly Haslams decision and thus, this is a warning shot across the bow. Both Banner and Lombardi need to take note.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: Again, if you're Haslam: what's the point of keeping two lame duck "decision makers", when you don't trust them to make the decisions they got hired and paid for and you consult "outside sources and opinions" on a big org decision like a HC hire?
If Chud was held accountable for starting Weeden over Hoyer and got fired, shouldn't Banner/Lombo held accountable to go with Chud over Whisenhunt, who apparently was Haslam's choice already a year ago?
I just don't see the benefit of keeping those two around anymore. If anything they can seriously mess up the offseason by going all-in win mode to save their butts….think Ireland-Dolphins last offseason.
You take things in steps. The next step won't be to fire another coach. This time Haslam is going to be 100% behind who is at coach because he is going to be the guy who hires him. The others can say they were a part of it, but if Haslam doesn't want the guy and the others do, he won't be hired.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new coach has more roster say. There might not be a formal announcment of such, but I could see it happening.
Haslam isn't happy, and it makes no sense that is displeasure started and ended with the head coach.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
As I said a few days ago I think the move to dismiss Chud was mostly Haslams decision and thus, this is a warning shot across the bow. Both Banner and Lombardi need to take note.
I sort of got that feeling as well. On one side you have him coming back from a long and stressful battle regarding his family business and he clearly stated that was priority #1. Supposedly the Jet game was the first game back??? Please correct me if these facts are incorrect...I don't care if I'm right or wrong I wish to know the truth.
I was at that game...Upbeat n I both felt that it was a shame cause we were pretty flat. Worst case also was I know Haslam envisioned this Steeler type attack defense. I was very disappointed that we didn't go after the Rookie Gino who showed in the past to make some serious mistakes when pressured. Reports were that Haslam was enraged.
Now we have some reports here n there about Haslam telling Chud to release some players to light a fire. Names that were dropped were Weeden, Little n Lava...I know the later was injured at least we were told he was injured, Pinkston was in n out of that game for some reason. Lava played the Jet game. Little most definitely underachieved but I can Chud's side. 6 different starting QBs and Little working hard all year in practices and in the classroom taking Gordon by the arm. Weeden - he's here and getting better at a snails pace not a good thing for a 30 year old sophmore but for the long term he costs us what a mil as a back up for the future.
I don't think Chud felt this was it...react to the big boss or else...so he did what he felt was best.
Nothing this season hurt us more than our QB situation specifically with Weeden n Campbell. Neither had that dynamic to teeter a close game our way. If anything Weeden might have showed a little more go for it than Campbell but still no results to back it.
The other thing on D was I thought our starting 11 were awesome and the weak link was Robertson.
But when packages had to change we were good with DL this is the depth we needed in the other units. We were good with OLB although thin after the loss of Groves. ILB we had DQ n a nickel LB when he got hurt we had Tank Carder who couldn't even fart coverage. Then he went down and we had some guy called Erasmus??? #50 who was a rookie UDFA.
DBs we had a very solid starting 4 Gipson, Ward, Haden n Skrine - Owens was getting better at the Nickel. Then we lost Owens....but our depth were a 3rd rounder who had nagging injuries at the wrong learning period and a bunch of UDFAs almost all rookies maybe a 2nd year waived player here n there. I'm telling you this was very significant in the horrific 3rd down efficiency. Also as we got a little thin in the waning games - Owens out and Haden nicked up....we had to depend on them more n more and it was here that we saw a total lack of blitzing if we did it was simple zone blitzes but to see more than 4 was a rarity. I think the reason for this was the lacking of talent in a unit to have one on one coverage (tight man) committed when you blitz.
Now maybe QB starting Weeden was all on Chud but I still remember Banner in the presser stating that we had to find out what impact we had in Weeden. And we all know without pressure and coaches right there possibly he looked like he was "GETTING IT" in practice.
Game 3 Hoyer came and we were on the right track 3-2 and the ceiling fell out....I fail to see the blame on Chud n Co. on not getting more from Weeden/Campbell
But the defense who looked awesome for the most part just was not the same once we had to go into our Nickel n Dime packages...trimming down on our strength of DL and adding UDFA rookies out there.
At the time of course I was disappointed with each n every game...but I heard the Banner presser about developing UDFA for the long term and it made sense...ok so we don't have a 6-10 to 8-8 season which would not get us anywhere. But I got the long term commitment.
But that was on both ends of the candle Chud and Banner/Lombardi.
Now comes the angry elf....and what? Banner/Lombardi look at each other n then point in unison to Chud and say it was his fault we did whatever he asked us???
All I know is we were a few pieces and upgraded depth away from an awesome team. QB being a big key (Hoyer is back for 2014 we sort of got a feel what he could do in our O, now what?) and a commitment to draft a QB with Norv one of the best QB makers (not named Weeden or Campbell) in the NFL. We have 3 of the top 36 picks and I think 7 more plus the biggest cap room in the NFL going into continuity with an O n D to get that veteran depth or develop some of those UDFA who are worth it.
I sort of saw all that thrown away at what expense? Possibly losing the players to the man (usually if they get a good HC in here he can pull them back in...but how much time will that take) I didn't see this dynamic owner having enough humility to admit he made a mistake and is trying to right it.
I see an owner who was embarrassed at the result and did a Cut HIS NOSE OFF TO SPITE HIS FACE thing.
Its confusing on what to believe. One article here n another there...all I have are the facts and if it smells like a dumb move it probably is one. Are we done forever? No...but its all going to depend on this next hire and are there problems of getting competition due to our well lets just say appearance of being UNSTABLE.
I'm sure once we hire...once we here of the players liking the new HC and the program once we have some FA additions as well as a great draft (Lombardi better not pick a kicker or a FB )
Most fans will get back on board with all there hearts cause talent this team is ready to do something. Stability, Direction and then continuity with that direction is a must. If what happened this season forces Haslam to be a little more patient with No. 2 then maybe its a good thing from hence forward.
JMHO but I'm still confused....when Vers speaks I believe him...then somebody else give us an article in the other direction I believe them. Man the Tug of War is killing me right now...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Chud didn't coach the defense at Carolina. That's why they lost so many games last year and won so many games this year.
I know you love correcting people, but the guy was referring to big plays on offense. As in Carolina has a lot of big plays when Chud was their coach and Gordon had a lot of big plays for the Browns this past season.
tab, I am not 100% sure about this, but I believe Haslam was at all the games. I think he wasn't able to spend as much time in Cleveland during the week as he would have liked due to his business dealings.
tab, you may want to read some of those articles w/a critical eye. For example, Marla Ridenour, or whatever her name is, blasted the Browns for potentially letting Farmer go to Miami. She is saying he could be the next Ozzie and that we should promote him now and fire Lombardi. It would be a major gaffe if we don't do those things. Several days earlier, she wrote an article entitled: What I Would Do if I Were the Browns. She never once mentioned promoting Farmer in that article
My point is that the reporting is far from objective.
Browns Coaching Search Doing Little To Improve Team’s Image Problem By DARYL RUITER, 92.3 The Fan Browns Beat Reporter
This article will largely be ignored. If not, it will be dismissed. After all, we don't want facts to get in the way of a good bash.
Well, I just read it Vers, and all it does is make the assertion that the blame is on Chud. It offers no proof of that, it offers no insider info, NOTHING.
It's some media guy saying what you want to hear, so you think it's a good article.
I've never heard of a first year HC being given that much say in personal decisions. Have you?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Never said it was a good article. I just said it would be largely ignored because it does not fit in w/what most people want to believe.
Now, if an article says the FO is incompetent, it will get a lot of play.
Coaches get to make decisions. They should be allowed to make personnel decisions. I believe that all the parties [Banner, Lombardi, Farmer, and Chud] had a say in things.
Look at it like this...........do you remember watching the last game of the season and hearing the announcers talking about why the Browns brought Baker in? Chud said that Norv really liked Baker from his time in San Diego, so they decided to bring him in and give him a shot.
Quote: Never said it was a good article. I just said it would be largely ignored because it does not fit in w/what most people want to believe.
Now, if an article says the FO is incompetent, it will get a lot of play.
Coaches get to make decisions. They should be allowed to make personnel decisions. I believe that all the parties [Banner, Lombardi, Farmer, and Chud] had a say in things.
Look at it like this...........do you remember watching the last game of the season and hearing the announcers talking about why the Browns brought Baker in? Chud said that Norv really liked Baker from his time in San Diego, so they decided to bring him in and give him a shot.
That was a positive decision.
It works both ways.
This is what you actually said:
Quote: This article will largely be ignored. If not, it will be dismissed. After all, we don't want facts to get in the way of a good bash.
You referred to the article being factual. that's what I was commenting on.
Does that make sense now?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
so, we got franklin at penn state. o'brian at houston, lovie at Tampa gruden at Washington.
so we are looking for a HC still, but there are still openings at minny, detroit and tennesee.
would would potential HC's take us over those other 3 teams? especially detroit, who has a QB, MEGATRON, suh and asnah. is whisenhut interviewing with detroit as well?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
The one thing I fail to see mentioned is the one thing so many stressed and was pointed out to us by this FO.
That is "consensus".
How is it that there was a consensus on what players were brought in here, played and everything else, yet now it seems Chud made all these decisions while his bosses had no say? That it's all Chud's fault when everyone in this FO supposedly had input on all decisions?
Either the consensus that we were told would happen was pure BS or Chud was used as the fall guy. You can't have it both ways. I'd guess these "sources that are being leaked" trying to shift the blame on Chud, probably start from the same people that tried to sell us that same line of BS about consensus.
You can't have it both ways IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: would would potential HC's take us over those other 3 teams? especially detroit, who has a QB, MEGATRON, suh and asnah. is whisenhut interviewing with detroit as well?
The Lions reportedly interviewed him on Thursday.
I would think a HC candidate would look at many things when deciding on where he would go given he had such options.
We have the draft picks and cap room to make this place attractive. All teams will throw money at you, so I don't see the contract itself a huge overriding factor.
So we get into other things. As a HC, that's your career. Every job you take adds to your resume' in a positive or negative light. So I believe a HC would want as much control as he could get and would have to believe the people he would be working for can draft well and give him a sense of stability as much as possible.
So if he had the choice of here or Detroit, I believe he would choose Detroit hands down. In terms of control and stability, I doubt anywhere he has interviewed thus far would give him less on both of those counts than here based on what we have seen as of late.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: How is it that there was a consensus on what players were brought in here, played and everything else, yet now it seems Chud made all these decisions while his bosses had no say? That it's all Chud's fault when everyone in this FO supposedly had input on all decisions?
I don't think they said there was a consensus between the FO and the coaches on who actually played, and I don't think Chud was being made a scapegoat for who was brought in. From the info we have it appears there was a consensus on who was brought in, and Chud was blamed for his decisions on who started/played.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
so, we got franklin at penn state. o'brian at houston, lovie at Tampa gruden at Washington.
so we are looking for a HC still, but there are still openings at minny, detroit and tennesee.
would would potential HC's take us over those other 3 teams? especially detroit, who has a QB, MEGATRON, suh and asnah. is whisenhut interviewing with detroit as well?
Well, we do have a defense that is closer to being special than some of those other teams. We have a receiver that may, in time, prove to be better than Megatron and 10 draft picks to see if there is a QB for the long haul and we have a QB in Hoyer that may be able to hold down the fort for a year until someone develops.
So, there's my pie in the sky view of things
On the negative side of the ledger, we have a FO that seems to not get it. Firing a HC that they hired after one year without providing players to fill obvious holes.
What guy is going to want to work for Banner?
Another question, Banner claims to be the guy who hired Reid. Or at least he claims credit for being one of the guys that made that decision.
I'm wondering how much of a football guy he really is. I get that he's a numbers guy. And you do need them, but you also need a guy that knows football and has a strategy and the ability to follow it thru.
So that's a question I'd need answered if I were a candidate. Banner and Lombardi would be crucial to my success so I'd need to believe they are the right ones.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
I would just think your bosses could tell you what to do if they felt so strongly about such matters. Not that I'm fond of the FO dictating who plays to the HC, but one would think if they saw everything going down the tubes, if they wanted to present a better product on the field, they certainly had the power to do so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Zimmer is my guy. Although I do not for one second believe Banner could coexist with him as Zimmer is an no nonsense, outspoken guy (just what I want) and Banner would surely feel threatened.
I think there are some very good reasons why Whisenhunt would take the Lions job (Stafford, Johnson, a great D-line). I also think there's one big reason why he might not take the Lions job - its in Detroit. I don't mean that as smack (I'm from Cleveland after all), but news reports from Detroit portray a city thats nearly post-apocalyptic in appearance and in quality of life.
My father drilled into me. Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. But its so tough cause all I got is reading - maybe why I rely heavily on What I see game day.
But I know I'm a chauvinist but I don't think its cause she is a woman that I take her "OPINION" with a grain of salt...cause I really don't give too much credit to Editorials but I like to bank the facts that I read. The bit about Haslam demanding Chud release somebody and they mentioned Weeden n Little was a NFL . Com writer...maybe La Confora??? so I took it as a fact cause it was being reported as fact not opinion. So I don't go for all the negative being posted.
I cannot trust Haslam's football knowledge because by his own accord he messed up.
You just don't see people HIRING n FIRING their HC's in one year - of course inheriting an HC I see it but not in a search and hire. How can I trust which Haslam was right and Which Haslam was wrong.
Haslam at all the games...yeah when I read that about the Jet game I'm like woah...I'm a billionaire no court in the world is open on Sunday I would fly to every game! So that makes sense.
All I know is this hire is very important! Duh ain't that the obvious at me...lol
But we need a dynamic HC to rally the troops fast and into it - then we got the year of the Brown 2014 with Draft picks...healthy Hoyer, largets cap space! This is our year to turn this around the only (excuse) negative I can see come our way is that they did the best they could considering this was the first year in the Offense and Defense! which gets my Ire going again about the fire.
What a vicious cycle I'm in and more than likely so many other dawgs.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: I think there are some very good reasons why Whisenhunt would take the Lions job (Stafford, Johnson, a great D-line). I also think there's one big reason why he might not take the Lions job - its in Detroit. I don't mean that as smack (I'm from Cleveland after all), but news reports from Detroit portray a city thats nearly post-apocalyptic in appearance and in quality of life.
Not to mention bankrupt or close to it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
I would like to see the Browns go the same route the Indians did when they hired Francona. The problem is I don't see a big time coach coming here with Banner and Lombardi. None would want to work with these 2 control freaks. With their personalities I don't see them looking for a big time coach either. Their huge egos could not handle it.
Banner and Lombardi is holding this team back big time. Out of the names mentioned this past 2 weeks Ken Whisenhunt and Mike Zimmer are the best choices but neither will coach here with Banner and Lombardi.
If Haslam wants to win as owner he needs to remove these 2. They make Mike Brown of the nineties look smart.
There's also something about Dan Quinn I like. I don't even know if I can put my finger on it. Maybe it's his youth and bald headed tough guy look! Who knows...
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at me...lol