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Of all the things this FO has done this year, this one I have the biggest problem with, because the problem was both glaringly obvious, and fairly easy to fix.
On the initial pick-up, ok, established vet, good history, likely ready to play, no big problem there.
BUT - After they had seen him play for a few weeks, SomeBody should have been scrambling for a replacement. 138 carries for 377 yards and a 2.7 avg. That's pathetic.
SomeBody DID notice that his pass-catching was even worse, 8 catches for 20 yards!. We quit throwing him the ball fairly early on. Who made this call, Norv, Chud, or otherwise? WHY didn't that SAME guy decide that handing off to the ball boy would likely be more effective.
The only clue I have heard is that Chud knew and liked him, and some reporter commented that he thought Chud was trying to "play him into shape". Chud is regarded as a "players' coach". Was he the one saying that McGahee was good enough, and to keep giving him the ball?
We went thru Rainey, who did reasonably well elsewhere, Whitaker, who at least was effective catching out of the backfield, and finally Baker, who gave us NFL-Average performance for the last two games. Along with Obi, our most effective backs were scrap-heap pickups. Obi had more yards from scrimmage by almost 200,with about 50 fewer touches, and Baker had over 50% of McGahee;s total yards in just over two games.
Why did we not get somebody better than McGahee, much earlier, and whose fault is this?
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I was under the impression he was kept, and played, for his superior (to every other RB we had) pass blocking/blitz pickup skills.
We became a passing team, little guys (Whitaker) don't block so well...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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i actually liked the Mcgahee pick up.
yea, his numbers aren't good, but he was what? 32? on top of that, excluding baker, none of our RB's were exactly lighting it up, even rainey when he was HERE. on top of that, our OL run blocking is horrible. nobody can even deny that part.
the buffalo game, mcgahee was tiring out the defense. say what you will, but he always fell foward in games, and he had excellent vision, just didnt have that burst to hit the hole like he use to.
i'm not advocating we keep him, but i think his experience would be very valuable, especially since we have dion lewis, and baker, 2 very inexperienced RB's, so maybe they can learn some good habits from a very productive RB over his NFL career.
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I'd rather have Tre Mason or Carlos Hyde...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I think he wanted a vet in there, because I'd be willing to bet that he thought between McGahee starting and getting significant time, that Obi and whoever else could hold things down. He's coached McGahee before so he would be able to be caught up quickly. It was just an overall bad situation, and if that was the coach's call, that probably played into his firing, because McGahee was horrible.
It didn't work, and the only good to come of it, is maybe this Baker can be a depth guy going forward.
I've seen enough of Obi, too many fumbles, and not enough big plays to make up for it. The only back I'd keep is Baker.
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and i agree, i was pimping tre in the other thread.
the problem we are gonna have though, is no matter who the RB is short of "All Day", they aren't going to produce consistently if we don't have a good enough scheme/talent at the OL to win the LOS battle. that has been a problem all year.
Baker showed he at least deserved a roster spot. i think if we go into training camp with Baker, Lewis, and either Mcgahee or Oby, we should be ok.
we should use our draft picks, like a 2nd or 3rd rounder, over even both on Guards. i dunno why Lavauo gets love on these boards. that guy gets put on his ass every single game.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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IIRC McGahee was brought in to help out with blitz pickups and stuff like that. (one thing that TRich struggled with IIRC as well)
also, who knows what he did behind the scenes. maybe he was also brought in to help our young core of RBs and show them how to be a pro in this league
Lewis and Baker should be the RBs next year
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Oh, yeah. That OL blocking thing again. Just awful. As far as I am concerned, lose McGahee, and Oggy and go fresher. Get a better stable before we go to the races.  
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McGahee might not have been my # 1 choice either, but to my understanding, he was a very positive influance in the locker room, and a mentor to the backs we did have, I do think he was the best of what was left out in FA at the time of his signing, When you go sign a FA there are many things a team needs to look at, injurys, whats it gonna cost, what type of person is this player, can they learn our system quickly, so we can use them, how bad are they in shape, I'm sure there are others were not looking at.
We got our money's worth from McGahee, but he does need to be replaced and I'm sure were planing on it.
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No Way would I want McGahee back next year, and I'm honestly not sure our run blocking is all that bad. For two years now, our primary back has been slow to the hole and/or indecisive. Also for two years, we have seen faster, more decisive backs perform significantly better than our primary. Hardesty, Obi, Baker versus Trich and McGahee.
I look at McGahee as epically bad, so terrible that he should have been benched or cut during the season. He certainly should have been out the door before Little, Bess, or possibly even Weedon, he was that bad, and there was apparently FO talk about actually cutting the first two.
Maybe I just over-value the run game. I do think that just having an "average" run game would have changed a lot this season. There was one game in particular where our three backs got a 7, a 5, and a 4 yard carry on three successive plays to start the game, and then did not get over 2 yards the rest of the day. Our run game was not just Bad, it was irrelevant. I don't think it's all or even mostly on the O-line.
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I have no problem with the decision. They knew they were going to be scoring the waiver, but you need someone proven until little gems like Baker show up as available.
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With Lewis returning, the late season show by Baker and then the draft (possibly Carlos Hyde, etc), not sure where Willis fits. Pass blocking is not good enough reason to eat one of 53 roster spots.
Willis was a band-aide signing IMO. Nothing against the guy, I believe he gave it his all when he played - but his all isn't what his all "use to be". He had to been good leadership/veteran presence as' well, but still...
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Mcslowly is the perfect running back for this team and fanbase. Sign him to a five year deal and we're set at RB. I keep hearing running backs aren't worth anything anyway. "Dime a dozen". So one is just as good as the next.... Why waste a draft pick on a RB when we already have Willie slow? This is the AFC North. Running the ball in this division is suicide. 
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Quote:
With Lewis returning, the late season show by Baker and then the draft (possibly Carlos Hyde, etc), not sure where Willis fits.
How about here...
yebat' Putin
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that actually looks quite comfortable.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Needs more padding, a footrest, and a dog.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Completely hilarious...
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The Amish can make better. Hopefully he stops off in Holmes or Wayne County before he leaves.
Tackles are tackles.
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"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I wanted them to re-sign Hillis after trading Richardson. He was available, and I'm pretty sure he could have exceeded 2.7 ypc by about 1.3 ypc. I couldn't care less about the "baggage", the guy could carry the rock.
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Quote:
I wanted them to re-sign Hillis after trading Richardson. He was available, and I'm pretty sure he could have exceeded 2.7 ypc by about 1.3 ypc. I couldn't care less about the "baggage", the guy could carry the rock.
He could carry it about 4.4 yards then put it on the ground.
4.4 YPC, 11 TDs, 8 Fumbles, hardly worth it.
Last edited by myka; 01/10/14 11:37 PM.
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Quote:
I was under the impression he was kept, and played, for his superior (to every other RB we had) pass blocking/blitz pickup skills.
We became a passing team, little guys (Whitaker) don't block so well...
For years this board has forgotten the fact that a RB needs to pick up blitzes.
With that said, it's still not an excuse.
We could've picked up a back exclusively for blocking, to the point where when he trotted out, the opposition knew beyond a shadow of a doubt it was a pass...
...and it still would've been better than McGahee back there all the time.
He had veteran vision...and nothing else.
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He had 8 fumbles, but only 5 were lost. You never want fumbles, but Hillis had over 330 touches that year - a fumble every 66 touches, while not optimum, isn't that bad imo. Anyway, the point wasn't to pimp Hillis so much as to say that there were other options. Hell, we could have put Hillis at fullback and Ogbonnaya at RB and gotten better results. I don't particularly remember Hillis' ability at blitz pickup, but he was a good blocker at Arkansas for McFadden and Jones. I don't think he would have been ragdolled the way we saw with Ogbonnaya when in pass pro.
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Quote:
Needs more padding, a footrest, and a dog.
You forget to mention the beer cooler...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Why don't we bring back KW2 and Edwards while we're at it?  I don't understand the love Hillis still gets around here. Prima donna headcase who went full blown diva after one good season. I think people just want to believe the blue collar, lunch pail narrative that was invented, despite zero proof of it. I know I'll get killed for saying it, but I don't think he'd get the love he gets if he weren't white. With that said...he couldn't have hurt this year, right? Hell, Ben Gay might've helped our running game.
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Quote:
Why don't we bring back KW2 and Edwards while we're at it?
I don't understand the love Hillis still gets around here. Prima donna headcase who went full blown diva after one good season.
I think people just want to believe the blue collar, lunch pail narrative that was invented, despite zero proof of it.
I know I'll get killed for saying it, but I don't think he'd get the love he gets if he weren't white.
With that said...he couldn't have hurt this year, right? Hell, Ben Gay might've helped our running game.
well, as a black guy, i loved hillis not because he was white, but because he brought a toughness to our Offense we haven't had...ever. since we came back in 99.
i mean. PDR, you don't remember that streak he had, like 3-4 games were he straight up INJURED a LB or DB just by running the rock and plowing through peeps?
while he definitely ruined it the follow season with his drama, i'd kill to have another RB with that type of bruising running style.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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My comment was in the context "vs McGahee" ... the subject of the thread. Thanks for making it racial, though.
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Sticking with McGahee,after it was clear he wasn't getting the job done was a major mistake.I have no idea why the Browns (unless they wanted to tank) didn't pull the plug on him sooner.
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I have no problem with signing McGahee or trading for Bess. I think both were smart moves. But I do have a problem with continuing to play them after they were awful. That falls on the former coaching staff.
RB is really a plug and play position, just go with the hot hand. I am excited to see what Dion Lewis can do next year.
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It's really hard to say what we'll do at RB until we know who the new coach is, and what his philosophy is. In general, I like the idea of building around Lewis and Baker, maybe adding a 3rd round RB as well. I suspect that Obi could be a contender as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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If Obi couldn't steal the job this season, I don't think it's possible for him. We should never see as poor a running back stable as this season again.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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I believe a coaching decision was made to stop throwing the ball to McGahee. I believe Norv made that decision, because he was calling the plays.
Having made that decision, I further believe that Norv would also have quit running him as well, and since we continued to run him, Norv must have been over-ruled by a higher power.
If this was Chud, who decided that our primary RB should be our worst primary back since 1953, this may have contributed to his firing. However made it, this was a bad move, unless it was part of a dedicated effort to get a better draft pick.
SFAIK, the HC picks the game-day roster, so IMO it's on Chud.
I also have to comment on Obi's blitz pickup. Obi has usually been described as fairly good at this, there was one, highlight-reel play, of him getting man-handled by a big-time pass rusher, but I don't recall that this happened a lot. Anybody have any observations of his pass-blocking, Other Than the one memorable failure?
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Same goes with Greg Little and even could debate Bess too. It's like under Chud, you can suck and still get played over people that are better options.
From what I am hearing and reading, these personnel choice decisions fell on/were made by Chud. Chud is an OC, he never ever belongs taking over the reigns as head coach. And I don't think he ever will either. JMO
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I'm just curious as to who all of these "better choices" were exactly?
I mean people can sit here and say that, but how would that match up with reality? Did Hoyer know the system well enough to start earlier? What had Cooper ever shown to make him look better?
It's funny, for people who never saw these guys in practice and had no way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes, the 20/20 hind sight is amazing.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Josh Cooper in his late little stint here was all the evidence I needed to see to know he could have replaced Little and/or Bess and who knows, maybe we'd actually convert some third downs. Maybe even won a few of those tight ball games. Just one example. I'd personally rather seen Tyms and let's give this kid a chance. We know what we got with a few players that show up to stink it up on gameday, why not? You want to sit here and tell me that you truly believe Weeden outplayed Hoyer and Campbell at practice? If you did say that, I guess I would say that is your entitled opinion that, me personally, wouldn't buy into or believe. Quote:
It's funny, for people who never saw these guys in practice and had no way of knowing what was going on behind the scenes, the 20/20 hind sight is amazing.
What is even more funny is those "professionals" who did see these people practice, watched them fail game in and game out - and still played them. Now that to me, is funny... to me, maybe that's why someone was fired. I mean how many times did they resign Tori Gurley and yet continue to play dropfest Greg? Why not see, JUST SEE, what Tori could do? The whole "we will put the best players forward that gives us the best chance to win" is not something Chud followed, but preached.
Just food for thought.
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Toughness?
Any semblance of that was washed from my memory when he sat out with strep throat after kicking field goals before the game.
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Quote:
You want to sit here and tell me that you truly believe Weeden outplayed Hoyer and Campbell at practice? If you did say that, I guess I would say that is your entitled opinion that, me personally, wouldn't buy into or believe.
I want to say I don't know. just like nobody else on this board knows. Actually pretty basic.
Quote:
What is even more funny is those "professionals" who did see these people practice, watched them fail game in and game out - and still played them. Now that to me, is funny... to me, maybe that's why someone was fired.
I wonder why people aren't as hard on the guys who signed Bess to that contract? Who kept Little saying it was "an evaluation year"? How are you going to evaluate people and see if they can grow in your system if you don't play them?
The only WR that is athletic enough to be a #2 WR in the NFL is Little. Unless and until you rule him out, you don't know what you need at the position.
I guess to me it boils down to this....... Do you evaluate the guys who have the athletic ability in Little and the proven track record coming into this year in Bess, or do you simply play a few guys that will need to be upgraded anyway?
Do you win a couple of more games this year as the band aid, or try to evaluate things for the long haul? I don't believe playing marginal players that won't be here in a year anyway accomplishes anything long term. At least not from any evaluation standpoint.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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No offense, but Cooper had 9 catches for 60 yards in 2 games.
That's 6.7 yards/catch. That's worse than a lot of RB. Bess, in the worst year of his career, with all kinds of problems swirling around him, averaged almost 2 full yards/catch more. He did convert some 1st downs, but he was not anything even remotely resembling special.
Just because Bess was bad doesn't mean that Cooper was good. He made a couple of tough catches, but I really saw nothing that can't and shouldn't be replaced next year with a better player.
Tyms had 2 catches for 12 yards. He also showed nothing that would make anyone say "there's a special, or really, even a good player".
We started out the season with Gordon being a question mark, Benjamin looking like he would be a productive receiver, Little coming off a great 2nd half of 2012, and a training camp in which he busted ass constantly, and Bess, who was considered almost universally to have been a steal by the Browns.
Of those top 4, only 1 did anything. Sure Gordon had a massive year, but Benjamin got hurt, Little fell apart, and Bess had some kind of personal problems that blew up his season.
So, of our top 4 receivers, the only 4 we broke camp with, IIRC, only 1 performed.
Little was benched at one point, but how much can you do when you have nothing waiting in the wings? Maybe, in retrospect, we should have drafted a WR in the 3rd or 4th round. That didn't happen though.
In the end, if 3 of your top 4 players at any single position wash out, you're going to be in massive trouble.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sometimes we can not know 100%, but surely can take an educated guess. We saw Brandon play, we saw Jason play as we saw Hoyer play. Who do you want to be our QB next year? What I can tell you is... I doubt you say Brandon. Quote:
I wonder why people aren't as hard on the guys who signed Bess to that contract? Who kept Little saying it was "an evaluation year"? How are you going to evaluate people and see if they can grow in your system if you don't play them?
Bess has a history of being productive and actually being a good WR. That history went down the crapper once he became a Brown. And dude, it doesn't matter what system you're in or what position (slot, outside, inside, who cares) - if the guy can't catch the ball - then that's the story. Little has been in evaluation mode and each time I see him drop a catchable ball, my judgement becomes crisp. The last drop of the ball in the endzone there with Little and I am DONE with him. He sucks and every year he shows he is consistent at only one time, not catching the ball and that is banking on his slim chances of getting open.
Now, the line between declaring a young kid crap, good or average - is a delicate one. But what we have in Greg last year, is what we have in him this year. He'll never change as I say that because it would have happened already, and it hasn't.
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The only WR that is athletic enough to be a #2 WR in the NFL is Little. Unless and until you rule him out, you don't know what you need at the position.
So you say just a few lines ago that you "need to play the player to see what you got" - how are you ruling out Tori Gurley then? How are ruling out Tyms? How are you ruling out Cooper (he hasn't played much if any adn that includes the Shurmur era)? We never got to see any of these kids play much if any.
All i'm saying is, I think Chud was a bit too nice and a bit too flexible with some of the struggling kids. Let me ask you this and then i'll drop out - how long would Little (doing the same thing he did here, etc) have lasted on a different roster on a different team, say the Pats for example?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Yeah, he only played two games, no? His games that he played were still more productive than Greg's, no? How many games did Greg not even get open or have a ball thrown his way or was a complete non-factor? I'm not saying we should cut Bess. Re-read, I'm saying Little has burned out his welcome here. And maybe everywhere for that matter. And Tyms again, played the end games there and at least catched the ball. Norv was setting up screens and etc to Coop but hell, a ball is thrown and these kids caught them. I don't care how physical their bodies are compared to Greg. I don't care about any of that, from what brief window I seen of them, they did the things a WR was suppose to do and most importantly, caught the damn ball. Throw all the stats around, I saw these players do what Greg should have since game one and every game in between to game end. But eh, why bother to upgrade or improve. No teams in the NFL do that. Give every player six years AT LEAST to prove themselves and pass up on all the "could have beens" in the meantime. Sounds like a great strategy to me. 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The McGahee Decision
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