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Sick of drafting WRs high.
I wouldn't mind getting an Odel Beckham Jr. in round 2 or 3.
One of these guys should be available in round 3: Abbrederis from Wisconsin, Jarvis Landry from LSU, or Jordan Matthews from Vandy.
Or, we could go after a Maclin or James Jones in free agency. I doubt Denver lets Decker walk, but he is also a FA.
I do realize that most fans really love drafting WRs high.
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Personally, I was kinda hoping we get a QB, an ILBer, and a guard/or RT in rounds 1 and 2.
That matches my want list perfectly... 
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i was thinking we pick up one in the 2nd, if we pick QB and G with our first 2 picks
while history has shown our WR not exactly lighting it up, we now have a #1 WR. proven. lead the league in yards and other categories and broke records.
putting another big time WR will do nothing less than help our offense tremendously, especially if we DON'T pick a QB high and end up going with hoyer as the QB of the future.
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I wasn't saying not to get a corner. It was more of a question.
Personally, I was kinda hoping we get a QB, an ILBer, and a guard/or RT in rounds 1 and 2.
Of course I was simply pointing out that because of our personnel now I think size for a CB can be a bigger factor for us. I see no reason to draft a CB this year if he can't present us with that skill set. Unless theres an obvious drop candidate of course.
While I do want an ILB I think this draft is stocked from mid round 3 on. I'd be surprised if any ILB went in the 1st. Even Mosely. I think our 1st 3rd would be a good spot to acquire one like Smallwood or Bullough(who I'm growing on). I know your opinion on WRs but I think 26 would be a nice place to get a true gamechanger like Beckham or Lee simply because that's where the value is. I see a big run on WR and OG in round 2. It'd be nice to get the choice of the best one.
Can you imagine Teddy/Johnny with Beckham/Lee and Gabe Jackson? That would go a LONG way towards a terrific offense.
Last edited by predator16; 01/26/14 11:40 AM.
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Mourg brought up a great point on the Manziel thread when he spoke of how most WRs are not good route runners these days. Lee is a perfect example of that.
I actually like Jordan Matthews from Vandy because he is the best route runner I saw. I am not saying he is the best route runner in college, but he's the best I witnessed----you know----of the better known players.
That Abberderis kid from Wisconsin isn't bad, either.
ILBers? I am really liking what I have seen of Skov from Wisconsin. He might be available in the 3rd. Like Steve said earlier...........let's hope he has a terrible Combine. LOL
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Skov is from Stanford. Borland is from Wisconsin. I don't know which you're talking about as both are pretty good.
Route running ability shouldn't be much of a positive. If you're a good route runner and you're not being projected as a first, it's really a negative. It means that you're ceiling is enclosing faster than the bad route runners. We've seen the best route runners and how they fare in the NFL and it's not good.
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I apologize. Not sure why I typed Wisconsin. Skov is the guy I meant. I disagree w/you on the route running thing. Not even sure how you can make such a statement. 
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Because I've seen Robiski, Stedman Bailey, Robert Woods and a host of other route runners fail in the NFL.
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Route running ability shouldn't be much of a positive. If you're a good route runner and you're not being projected as a first, it's really a negative. It means that you're ceiling is enclosing faster than the bad route runners. We've seen the best route runners and how they fare in the NFL and it's not good.
The best route runners like Steve Smith, Welker, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, TO. They seemed to fare pretty damn good lol. I am sorry but thats just wrong.
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That's the biggest reason I never cared for Mathews. I wonder if he can separate at the next level. If he separates as much as others in college with less precise routes how will he sustain that separation when his peers improve? It's not a certainty but it is something to consider. Who knows.
It's not that route running isn't a positive I think. It's just that if he has less to improve on 1)what is his ceiling if his mechanics are above the rest and 2)can he create natural separation or did he only separate because of his routes in college? If he can't create separation with athleticism I wonder how much he can create against NFL CBs.
Last edited by predator16; 01/26/14 12:25 PM.
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Can you imagine Teddy/Johnny with Beckham/Lee and Gabe Jackson? That would go a LONG way towards a terrific offense.
Without making a trade for our QB, walking away with a QB, WR, and G in Rds 1 & 2 would be awesome. At this point, I m not sure Beckham could be had in round 2 so if we don't trade up for a QB, I think he may be had @ 26. I think there could be several G available with our second round pick.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Quote:
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Route running ability shouldn't be much of a positive. If you're a good route runner and you're not being projected as a first, it's really a negative. It means that you're ceiling is enclosing faster than the bad route runners. We've seen the best route runners and how they fare in the NFL and it's not good.
The best route runners like Steve Smith, Welker, Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, TO. They seemed to fare pretty damn good lol. I am sorry but thats just wrong.
There's a difference between being a good route runner in the NFL and college. I don't have the scouting reports for the draft on Steve Smith and TO, but I doubt either were exceptional route runners in college. Welker and Rice are exceptions to the rules. Marvin was a first so he's not part of the rule. I believe that players who have off the wall athleticism have a much better chance to succeed in the NFL than WR's who have off the wall route running skills.
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I also wouldn't mind CJ Mosely if he "fell" to #26.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Can you imagine Teddy/Johnny with Beckham/Lee and Gabe Jackson? That would go a LONG way towards a terrific offense.
Without making a trade for our QB, walking away with a QB, WR, and G in Rds 1 & 2 would be awesome. At this point, I m not sure Beckham could be had in round 2 so if we don't trade up for a QB, I think he may be had @ 26. I think there could be several G available with our second round pick.
I agree and I think he'll rise a little with his 40 time. With Lee rising I think Beckham will make it to 26. If we need to trade up I'd rather use future picks and/or our extra 3rd and 4th to do so. 26 and 35 are so key. If we could get Jackson or Filo at 35 I'd be happy.
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That's the biggest reason I never cared for Mathews. I wonder if he can separate at the next level. If he separates as much as others in college with less precise routes how will he sustain that separation when his peers improve? It's not a certainty but it is something to consider. Who knows.
You really aren't buying into that story that CHS was trying to spin, are you? Come on, you are smarter than that.
The separation you were alluding to typically happens because a guy is a good route runner, as in..............he gets in and out of his breaks quickly, which leaves the cb behind. Straight speed isn't what typically creates separation.
I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
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Gordon would like to have a word with you.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Quote:
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That's the biggest reason I never cared for Mathews. I wonder if he can separate at the next level. If he separates as much as others in college with less precise routes how will he sustain that separation when his peers improve? It's not a certainty but it is something to consider. Who knows.
You really aren't buying into that story that CHS was trying to spin, are you? Come on, you are smarter than that.
The separation you were alluding to typically happens because a guy is a good route runner, as in..............he gets in and out of his breaks quickly, which leaves the cb behind. Straight speed isn't what typically creates separation.
I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
Vers I really don't think we are in that much of a disagreement and I'm not in total agreement with CHS either. I'll give you the uncondensed version. I love the kids polish and the fact that he's tops in the class in his routes. He was actually the first WR I studied.
Admittedly WR is not my specialty. I am very picky but right off the bat I didn't see the suddenness I'd like in a 1st or 2nd round guy. He seemed like he was in slowmo to me. So I dug deeper and found that he isn't know as a great athlete but he is Jerry Rices cousin
As I watched I came to the conclusion that for a college WR he is very polished in his technique but I don't think it's likely that he'll be anything special.
He has good hands, frame and he's smart but I just don't feel for a 2nd rounder that he has enough upside given his lack of athleticism. Given his size I could overlook that if he was something special in the air like say Floyd or Jeffry but I don't see enough to like.
If Beckham and Lee are gone I;d bypass a WR until the next set like Moncrief, Abbredaris and Janis.
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I guess my point is that we have Gordon, who is an outstanding athlete and is our number one WR. We also have Jordan who is a very good receiver. What we need is a number 2 WR who is smart, runs good routes, gets open, catches the ball well, and converts third downs.
I thought we had that in Bess. I had no idea that he turned into a doper and head case. I think we can find the type of guy we need outside of rounds 1 and 2.
Again, I do understand that WR is the position of choice w/most Brown's fans over the years. I am simply stating my opinion.
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Good points. Nothing I can argue there. If he's there in round 3 I would have no problem with a WR like that. I was just going off the general rankings, most of which having him in the 2nd.
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Btw--------------I wasn't trying to force my opinion on you. After all.................it's all opinion. Not many facts behind it.
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No it's fine. Considering we have 2 good deep threats we absolutely need an underneath man. That's why I like The WRs I do in Lee and Beckham. You won't change my opinion of Mathews but if yours has sound logic I can't dismiss it. We agree on most of the topic at hand I just happen to be more of an upside guy.
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Quote:
Gordon would like to have a word with you.
I remember one Gordon bomb on which he was 10+ yards open because he did a really nice stop and go that left the CB grabbing at air like a baby in the crib. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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That's the biggest reason I never cared for Mathews. I wonder if he can separate at the next level. If he separates as much as others in college with less precise routes how will he sustain that separation when his peers improve? It's not a certainty but it is something to consider. Who knows.
You really aren't buying into that story that CHS was trying to spin, are you? Come on, you are smarter than that.
The separation you were alluding to typically happens because a guy is a good route runner, as in..............he gets in and out of his breaks quickly, which leaves the cb behind. Straight speed isn't what typically creates separation.
I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
Really? Cordelle Paterson, TY Hilton, Desean Jackson and Antonio Brown would like to have words with you. The separation you're talking about happens at the NFL level a lot. In college most WR separation is based off of speed and acceleration. I know you're smarter than thinking you can be a #2 WR with 4.5-4.6 speed who runs great routes. I know you saw Robiski play. Don't buy the route running hype in the draft. You can learn routes in the NFL, you can't learn speed in the NFL.
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i always liked the slant routes they did with gordon, absolutely burning peoples faces off.
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CHS...............you come across as an expert, but your opinions are way whacked.
Let me ask you...............have you ever played the game? Coached the game? Scouted?
I am betting the answer is no to all of the above.
Now............I am assuming your read a lot and you think that makes you an expert.
I have no problems w/your opinions, but when you try and act like an authority on certain subjects that you clearly have no expertise on..............I am going to call you on it.
In this particular instance............you are talking out of your butt.
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I played kindergarten to Freshman year in college. I've coached at a few local high schools. I've never scouted professionally, but I have scouted on my own. Vers, stop trying to pick fights because you cannot defend your opinion with examples.
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You started the fight. I can defend my opinion. I already have. You make crap up to make others think you know what you are talking about. Route running is a negative? Really? Heck w/it..................have it your way. Route running is a negative.  Good God.
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I started the fight by disagreeing with you? I know you're highly temperamental, but that's a stretch even for you. I think we can have a respectable disagreement without trying to strike for blood. I'll take my statement back, it's not necessarily a negative, but it's not much of a positive. If it were you'd see Jordan Matthews get taken over Kelvin Benjamin.
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vers,
come on bro. you know thats not what he is saying. he is saying, coming straight out of college, route running isn't much of a positive with big WR that play jump ball throughout college in the first place.
and whether you agree or not, he listed examples of his opinion. which i can see his reasoning.
the WR that are herald for their route running in college aren't that much better at everything else. they aren't burners, they won't out jump anybody. basically they are just like the example you made, they are what Bess is suppose to be.
but look at CHS opinion no further than our own team. Gordon. that man has a lot to work on as far as route running, but he makes up for that in almost every single category. he flat out BURNS people and makes it look easy. i specifically remember YOU and others during the off-season saying the way he runs, you thought he was being lazy.
yea, 1600 says otherwise. Desean Jackson, Megatron, the list will go on and on of CHS examples of big play WR's needing to work on route running over the years.
thats all he is saying/
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Thank you Swish. This is exactly what I was trying to say.
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Look guys.................if you two...and others............think that route running is not important..............fine.
However, I do think it is important.
Can we leave it at that?
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thats just it vers. we aren't saying it ISN'T important.
we are saying its not that big of a deal coming out of COLLEGE. especially if you're talking about a 6'3 6'4 WR.
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I remember one receiver we drafted who was really well known for his route running in college ...... Brian Robiske ........and he turned into nothing in the NFL. Ugh.
I do think that there are a lot of areas that require scouts and teams to project from college to the pros. Looking at a spread QB and how he translates to the NFL is one example. Using the same offense as an example, the spread WR often isn't exactly a tactician. Certain aspects of their talent and ability are showcased, and generally the physical side is showcased more than the mental.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So..................Robiski seals it?
What about Q? Andre Davis? Hubbard? How about Heyard Bay? I guess they don't count.
You know.................trying to have an intelligent conversation around here is very difficult. One guy derails it w/a BS statement and then all the good is undone.
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heyward bay?
you mean the guy that sucks at everything, including actually catching the ball in the first play?
andre davis and Q? guys who couldn't catch consistently? those guys weren't even good at catching.
you're saying CHS made a BS statement, yet, and i'm not speaking for Ytown of course, but 3 people understand his point and agree to a certain extent.
thats far from BS. not sure why you call it that.
Last edited by Swish; 01/26/14 10:16 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Yes, that was my point. We can all provide examples of guys who failed.
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ah, i understand.
well back to college, i think the original point was you can't judge a big WR based off of route running. that can be taught.
sort of like you said its hard to evaluate QB's who play in spread offenses.
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But can you post players that have succeeded other than Wes Welker? But if you're barely getting separation as a WR on CB's' running 4.6's and 4.7's what makes you so sure he's going to get separation at the NFL level when those guys are much quicker and faster?
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I just brought up one example ...... one who really, really disappointed me greatly.
That's all.
You have to admit that a lot of college football, especially in the passing game, is more physical talent than anything in a lot of spread offenses. You don't see a lot of complicated reads by the WRs in these offenses. Hell, you don't really even see much in the way of reads at all. "Go get open" is more the order of the day.
If a team runs a pro style offense, especially one based heavily on the WCO, then the WRs need to be heady, smart, and constantly alert on the field. They need to do every small thing correctly. In other offenses, they have far more leeway. That's all I'm saying. Well, that and it seems like more and more offenses offer more and more leeway to both QBs and WRs.
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I can't believe I have to argue this: Quote:
If you watch college football, you might say route running is overrated because of all the screen and Go routes being thrown. In contrast, when it comes to the NFL, route running is the most important trait of all wide receivers.
When a receiver can't run routes properly, he doesn't separate from defensive backs the majority of the time despite his physical traits. This means he must understand the nuances of route running, which includes beating press coverage, not wasting steps and tipping off defensive backs with their eyes and shoulders.
Most of the league's best receivers are exceptional route runners and don't make the aforementioned mistakes in the process, which is why they are considered elite.
If you watch college football, you might say route running is overrated because of all the screen and Go routes being thrown. In contrast, when it comes to the NFL, route running is the most important trait of all wide receivers.
When a receiver can't run routes properly, he doesn't separate from defensive backs the majority of the time despite his physical traits. This means he must understand the nuances of route running, which includes beating press coverage, not wasting steps and tipping off defensive backs with their eyes and shoulders.
Most of the league's best receivers are exceptional route runners and don't make the aforementioned mistakes in the process, which is why they are considered elite.
Quote:
Highlighting the Best Route-Running Techniques of the NFL's Top WRs
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Highlighting the Best Route-Running Techniques of the NFL's Top WRs
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Route running is one of the most difficult aspects of not just playing wide receiver, but football in general.
It can take years for a wide receiver to master this craft because of the multiple parts and details to it. Quality route running can be the difference between a touchdown catch and not getting thrown the ball, which is why its crucial to develop the necessary skills as soon as possible.
But before you develop the necessary skills, you have to know what they are. They range from having the natural talent to run sublime routes to developing the techniques of it.
The vitals of route running can be narrowed down to seven distinct characteristics: short area quickness, head and shoulders, footwork, pad level, hips and complete understanding of coverages. The NFL's top receivers are very strong in all of these areas, which is why they will be used as examples throughout this piece.
Short-Area Quickness
Short-area quickness is exactly what it says it is: the ability to stop and start quickly in the short area.
There are multiple receivers who have this ability, but perhaps none more impressive than Philadelphia Eagles pass-catcher DeSean Jackson. Jackson is very quick in the short area, and it is visible in every aspect of his game, most notably at the line of scrimmage and when separating from defensive backs at the top of his route.
Jackson can beat defensive backs with an explosive first step or take stutter steps to mislead the defender and explode in another direction. For defensive backs, it comes down to jamming him at the line of scrimmage—if you can get to him quickly, that is—or potentially getting burned for six points.
Once Jackson gets going on his vertical stem, he is able to run full speed and then make sudden cuts that separate him from defensive backs and exemplify his short-area quickness.
This ability is very important to have because if a receiver runs routes perfectly but lacks short-area quickness, he is unlikely to get open on a consistent basis regardless of his technique.
Head and Shoulders
Head and Shoulders isn't just the name of NFL players' shampoo, it's also a technique that receivers are taught by their coaches early in their careers.
When a pass-catcher gets off the line of scrimmage and starts to develop his route, it's crucial that he doesn't give it away with his eyes and shoulders. He has to run with his shoulders squared and his eyes focused on the defensive back in front of him. The league's best pass-catchers do it consistently, and it's a big reason why they get open from the opposition.
I vividly recall then-Oakland Raiders cornerback Nnamdi Asomougha talking about rookie Darrius Heyward-Bey and how raw he was.
Asomougha was quick to point out that Heyward-Bey was still learning the wide receiver position, and one big aspect was that he was giving his routes away before he even finished running them. The All-Pro defensive back stated that Heyward-Bey was tipping off the route with his eyes often, and it was a big reason why he struggled to get open.
As you'll see in the clip to the right, Green Bay Packers wide receiver Greg Jennings doesn't have that issue. Jennings is a veteran and one of the league's best at the position, so only the best is expected of him, but he stays square while running downfield until he is ready to break off his route and separate from the defender. Jennings broke down the Vikings cornerback following his vertical stem and created separation with ease.
Impressive.
Footwork
Over the years, analysts and commentators have brought up footwork as a vital aspect of various positions, and they are absolutely right in doing so. Footwork is essential in every position in football, and wide receiver is no exception.
Wide receivers must have quality footwork when running routes because they have to be sharp and fluid out of their cuts. Too many steps taken means that the defensive back has more time to close the gap between himself and the receiver. Consequently, this means that the defensive back also has a greater chance of making a play on the ball.
Conversely, if the receiver is sharp, there's little chance of success for the opposition.
The latter is the case when it comes to recently acquired Chicago Bears wide receiver Brandon Marshall. The former Broncos and Dolphins receiver is one of the league's best because of his size and sheer power. But what's often forgotten (I'm guilty of this too) with Marshall is how crisp of a route runner he is. He is very clean in his footwork, taking as few steps as possible to break off his route and create separation from the defender.
This has been illustrated by Marshall throughout his career, but most recently against arguably the league's best cornerback, Darelle Revis of the New York Jets. Marshall ran his routes with cookie-cutter precision and got open on several occasions against a cornerback that is typically on receivers like white on rice.
Hips
Along with quality footwork, a receiver must have the ability to sink his hips when running his routes.
Fluid hips are one of the most important traits that NFL personnel men look for when evaluating wide receivers because it indicates what kind of routes the prospect can run. If the player is stiff in the hips and has trouble sinking them on a consistent basis, like former LSU and current New York Giants rookie receiver Reuben Randle does, then he may not be as explosive or quality in all facets of the route tree.
On the other hand, if the receiver is fluid and able to sink his hips, then he is likely to have little trouble running various routes from various alignments, like Randle's teammate, Victor Cruz. Cruz has developed into a strong route runner since coming into the league, and a big reason is because of his hip flexibility and fluidity.
As witnessed against the division rival Dallas Cowboys last season, Cruz can create separation with ease because of his hips, which allows him to make big plays like the 74-yard touchdown he scored. At the three-second mark, Cruz sinks his hips while planting his foot and separates from the defender.
Pad Level
Using the same video, Victor Cruz also does a good job of dropping his shoulder pads low while running his route.
Like the aforementioned footwork, pad level is important at every position, and when it comes to the wide receiver position, it's near the top.
It's very important for a receiver to play with low pad level because he is able to get out of his breaks quicker that way. If he played with high pad level, essentially standing up, he'd have trouble making quick cuts and running away from the defender. He'd have issues moving laterally, and it would look as if he's very slow-footed, which is unlikely to be true.
Understanding of Coverage
Last of all is the understanding of coverage. A receiver's success in the NFL can be narrowed down to the mental aspect of the game. If he doesn't understand what he's seeking and doesn't know when to run the "go" route or the "deep comeback" based off of the coverage he is given post-snap, then he's going to struggle.
Chad Johnson, who is formerly of the New England Patriots, was an example of this last season when he failed to contribute to the offense because he was unable to figure out which routes to run and when.
On the flip side, Patriots receiver Wes Welker, who does most of his work from the slot alignment, has a great understanding of this part of the game and knows when to continue running on a built-in shallow cross and when to break it off and sit in the zone between the play-side and middle linebackers.
Welker also understands when to sit between the two linebackers and when to use the "bounce" technique and go back outside, toward the numbers, to get open for quarterback Tom Brady.
Unfortunately, not all receivers end up picking this up, and it's a big reason why they struggle.
Overall
Running routes in the NFL is a difficult task, especially when the receiver is fresh out of college and a spread offense that relies heavily on bubble and flanker screens. These are not the types of plays that he's going to be primarily catching, although they are used in the NFL.
Instead, the receiver has to use his natural talent and develop important techniques to adapt to the speed of the game and get open for his quarterback in a pro-style system. These talents and techniques include short area quickness, head and shoulders, footwork, pad level, hips and complete understanding of coverages.
The receivers that master these aspects of route running are hailed as some of the best at their position and in the league overall. However, few are able to master these techniques on a consistent basis: every snap, every Sunday.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/12919...he-nfls-top-wrs
[quoteTop 5 wide receivers in the NFL
June 12, 2013 by Michael Richter 1 Comment
1. Calvin Johnson – Detroit Lions
This is a no brainier. Calvin Johnson is undoubtedly the best wide receiver in the game today. Johnson broke the single season receiving yards record in 2012. Johnson is truly a physical specimen, he stands at 6-5 and weighs 230lbs. You’d think he wouldn’t be able to burn cornerbacks at his size, but he certainly does. Johnson’s route-running isn’t perfect, but he certainly knows how to hide his routes from defensive backs. He’s one of the most dominant wide receivers the NFL has ever seen.
2. Andre Johnson – Houston Texans
Andre Johnson has been one of the NFL’s best wideouts for many of years. Johnson is a master route-runner, nobody in the league can touch him in that aspect. He’s not as fast as he once was, but he still possesses adequate speed. Johnson bounced back from a injury-ridden 2011 to produce over 1,500 yards receiving in 2012. Johnson, after a decade in the NFL has shown no signs of slowing down.
3. A.J. Green – Cincinnati Bengals
Green is only a two year pro, but has already proven to be one of the best. Green is another phenomenal route-runner, he displays some of the best footwork at the wide receiver position. Green does not possess elite speed, but will make plays after the catch if given the space. Green is one of the best jump-ball receivers in the league, and shows off the ability to make all the tough catches. A.J. Green is going to have a long successful career.
4. Roddy White – Atlanta Falcons
White is one of my personal favorite wide receivers in the league. White is consistently great, and his hands are some of the best in the league. Roddy is the NFL’s best possession receiver. He’s not going to beat you deep, but he’ll attack you underneath. Julio Jones may get a lot of the attention, but White is definitely the best Falcon receiver.
5. Larry Fitzgerald – Arizona Cardinals
Throw out the stats from 2012, Fitzgerald is still in the top tier of receivers. Fitzgerald had to deal with a couple of poorly bad quarterbacks in 2012. Fitzgerald is a great route-runner, he gets in and out of his breaks perfectly. He’s not overly fast, but if you give him space he can break off a big gain. Fitzgerald should go back to putting up elite numbers in 2013.]
http://profootballzone.com/nfl/top-5-wide-receivers-in-the-nfl/
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