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Question on the Garaffalo kid...is he about the same QB as Hoyer? Is what you guys see is Hoyer but possibly Better? going to the Brees stage?
I really think its the development of the QB...too many get thrown right into the fire - if a UDFA like Hoyer can be developed by learning and sitting imagine what more talented QBs might become?
Lombardi on Manziel...just remember before we flame Lombardi for the pick - It has been Farmer going to his games and making the evaluations on most of the QBs...I really think the QB we do end up wanting will be a Farmer choice not Lombardi!
JMHO
I think that's actually a fair comparison EO. GaroPPolo  has a skillset to be effective in the NFL. A game manager type if you will. He can throw a decent deep ball but his velocity on all throws is only average, especially considering how he likes to press small windows. His mental game is not elite but he shows no glaring weaknesses.
Overall he reminds me of Tony Romo. Not really a gamechanger or elite but he's accurate and effecient. I see little downside and only marginal upside. Considering he's probably a 2nd rounder I don't think you can rely on him as a franchise savior but as a Kaepernick type. However if we used our picks to create an elite roster, a gamble in it's own, I would love to have Jimmy. Really though he should be taken by a team with a old but great QB or a decent QB with a contract expiration date.
While I think it's unlikely the scenario where Jimmy could become a Brown would either be taking Watkins and a OG then Jimmy or trading down and getting an extra 2nd or so to add the top RB as well. Banking on that many rookies on offense would be unwise though IMO.
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Bortles frame/build certainly indicates that he'll be able to take the hits. His game may need some refinements, but that's what coaching is there to do. To make sure that these players grow and improve their capabilities.
I agree his game will need refinements. I think he made several poor decisions throwing the ball and may be less accurate than Teddy or Johnny on deep efforts.
One thing that has really caught my eye is he moves in the pocket very well and can run with the ball when needed to make plays. He is deceptively quick for being 6'4 230lbs and I didn't really notice that about him earlier. I also like the fact he was willing to stay in the pocket to make throws...he didn't seem rattled. Perhaps he's content with his size that he can absorb big hits to a certain degree.
Comparing him to the other two QBs, I think he has the best size, best footwork, and overall mechanics. He'll need to improve on decision making and take less gambles, but has proven (at least in the tapes I've watched) the ability to complete throws in very tight tight spaces.
I agree with you about Bridgewater and his size. I've read one report list him at 189lbs. Not sure how accurate that is. Same thing with Manziel and this is probably something I need to stop thinking about because it is no way indicative of his ability but he also "looks" little out there. But Manziel does make good decisions, throws accurately, and can make plays. Even as a Heisman winner last year, he looks like a better QB in his sophomore season.
I guess at this point, no one really jumps out to me in any certain order.
That's a good assessment. Though I will disagree that I think a major downfall of Bortles is that I think he evacuates the pocket too often(when he doesn't need to) rather than stepping up and delivering the ball. With NFL defenders he'll give up more sacks. I know some people consider that minor but I think it's psychological and it worries me more than most.
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The problem I have with Bortles is while he does a lot of things well he doesn't jump out at you. I try not to quote scouting reports but it really does say it all.
I don't mind scouting reports. They usually have valid observations. The analysis made by them can only be deduced in one's own mind. It's what they are. They're like a test for color blindness. If you're not color-blind, you'll see a number or an image. If you're color-blind, you'll see something else or nothing at all.
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I think he will succeed and he is the safest pick. But I don't think he'll win you a superbowl without an elite cast(easier said than done). I think he's in the realm of Dalton. I think you tie your wagon to him and you get winning seasons half the time but he actually holds you back from going all the way.
Among the QBs being considered in the top of the draft, I think he has the best possibility for success in the NFL and the safest pick. That's not to say that I think he's a safer pick than other players.
I don't like the view that a QB can only carry you so far and that they can go no further (although Tony Romo is testing that belief.  ) It is a team sport. All the QB can do is to do his part well enough to win. He can undoubtedly cost a team games, but that can be said of any player on the field.
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Bortles just isn't on the same level mentally that Johnny and Teddy are. The natural feel and dissection they possess is what you see from the QBs who succeed at the next level.
Mentally, Johnny Manziel is a teenager. Sure, he likes the image of being a playboy, but he'll have to put those antics aside if he wants to succeed in the NFL. Bortles beat Bridgewater in college. It's college, but he led his team in the Fiesta Bowl to 52 points on Baylor, which was ranked #6 in the country at the time.
I'm not so sure that Bortles doesn't have the mental toughness to play in the NFL (i.e., holding a team back). I don't know where that perception comes from and I think it's unfounded.
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With as bad as we've been I get that maybe that's desirable but personally I'll never be satisfied with 2nd best.
Nobody likes being second best. They'd rather be the first worst at so that they can draft #1 overall.
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I think Johnny and more so Teddy are bonafide Franchise QB's. I get why people question them because of their builds but Johnny is solid for his height and Teddy, while sleek, has the lower body bulk. If he had an average torso(probably 10-15 lbs) no one would say a thing. I feel like people look at the number more than his actual physique. He'll probably show up at the combine at 220.
I'm not questioning Manziel's abilities and toughness. I just think that if he thinks he can play his college game at the NFL level, he's in for the shock of his life. I simply don't think, with his frame/build that Bridgewater can play at this level. It would take more than 10-15 pounds. It would take 20-25, maybe even more. Maybe Bridgewater does show up at 6'-3" and 220# and can make all kinds of throws. He had better, because if he comes in looking too lean, his draft position will drop. Also, I think, among real scouts, not mock draft prognosticators, Bridgewater's stock is already down. He's going to have to put on that weight to recover it. I could see him being the Geno Smith of this QB class and slipping well into the 2nd round, maybe even further.
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Not to mention there's a reason pundits now are dropping Teddy. If they kept him rated no1 no one would read their blogs. He'll be the top QB come draft day. The proof is in the tape. Bortles is a 2nd round talent at best.
I don't agree with that. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next month and then between the Combine and the Draft.
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I gave a small scouting report on Bortles before he was on the national media's radar. He was my sleeper guy and I was hoping we could grab him in the 3rd, although I did speculate that he would rocket up the charts.
It just goes to show you how poor some of these other QBs are [Carr, Murray, McCarron, Mettenberger, etc] that Bortles passed them like they were standing still.
To be fair, Mettenberger and Murray are injured. Carr is a good QB. Will he be better than Bortles, I don't know yet. I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him but it would probably only be the case if we managed to pick up some additional selections.
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I don't mind all the talk about Manziel. I wouldn't be upset if we took him with the 2nd first rounder, but he's not the guy that I would take at #4 overall. I probably wouldn't take him at #26 either, but I'd be more readily able to accept selecting him there than at #4. I really don't want anything to do with Bridgewater. He's simply too thin to play the QB position at the NFL level. Can he make throws? Sure, all QBs can - Manziel and Bortles (for example), but not all college-caliber QBs are NFL-caliber QBs. I actually heard Bruce Drennan say on his show on STO that he had concerns about the level of competition that Bortles played against. He didn't even put it together that Bridgewater played against the exact same level of competition and lost to Bortles and UCF on their home turf. If it means anything to folks, UCF ended the season ranked #10 (AP poll) in the country in college football. Louisville finished at #15. Curiously, with the late season meltdown and loss against Clemson in the Orange Bowl, Ohio State still squeaked out a #12 ranking. In the USA Today poll, Ohio State and UCF swap spots and Louisville remains at #15. For whatever that's worth to folks.
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why you guys talking about the QB's weight like they are gonna be stuck at that weight for the rest of their lives?
i'm sure strength and conditioning in the nfl will put some pounds on either manziel or Teddy.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I don't get the "Bridgewater is too small and will get hurt" - has he ever gotten hurt in college?
I agree he is a bit undersized -- but honestly I doubt that "smaller guys get hurt more often" is really true for the QB position. Being the biggest and having the strongest muscles means a lot for bruising, and taking big hits when you get to brace your body (e.g. for running backs who take helmets to the thighs all the time). Defenders simply aren't allowed to hit QBs in that way anymore. I remember 10 years or so ago, when QBs missed games with cracked ribs all the time. You don't see that much anymore because any defender who goes helmet first into the QBs ribs is going to lose $50k.
But when QBs get injured, it's because their body is in an awkward position when they get hit -- they usually suffer joint or ligament injuries. Bodybuilding doesn't build up joints and ligaments the way it can build muscles and bone density. Actually, it can make it worse if you do too much of the same type of body building. If you have all your weight on your back leg, and don't see a 250 pound LB hitting you in the back leg, you will get hurt, and it doesn't matter if you weight 150 or 300 lbs.
I think the injury risk of a QB has way more to do with awareness (when to brace and not get hit in an awkward position), and the flexibility of the QB (how much your joints can give when you get hit in an awkward position). I don't so much want a QB who is 250 pounds, I want a QB who can bend like Gumby when necessary.
Drew Brees isn't any bigger than Bridgewater, and has only suffered one significant injury (when he got hit in the arm while throwing) -- you know why? Because he feels pressure well and doesn't take big hits.
Roethlisberger is too risky with taking big hits, and though he is built like a tank, he gets hurt all the time.
Peyton Manning has to be a bigger injury risk than almost any QB out there (just because 39yos don't bend the same way as 25 year olds) but he's only suffered one serious injury -- again because he doesn't take big hits.
I think Manziel is a much much bigger injury risk than Bridgewater, just because of the way he plays the game -- 25 pounds isn't going to offset the fact that Manziel will take 3x as many hits as Bridgewater over the course of a season.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 01/26/14 03:46 PM.
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why you guys talking about the QB's weight like they are gonna be stuck at that weight for the rest of their lives?
i'm sure strength and conditioning in the nfl will put some pounds on either manziel or Teddy.
I don't think that Manziel really needs to bulk up all that much. In general, he's listed at 6'-1", 210#. I don't think he needs to put any weight on and even if he added 5 pounds, it wouldn't be all that noticeable. If you put just 5 pounds on Bridgewater, you could tell it. He'll need much more than that, but you would notice it.
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I don't like the view that a QB can only carry you so far and that they can go no further (although Tony Romo is testing that belief. ) It is a team sport. All the QB can do is to do his part well enough to win. He can undoubtedly cost a team games, but that can be said of any player on the field.
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Bortles just isn't on the same level mentally that Johnny and Teddy are. The natural feel and dissection they possess is what you see from the QBs who succeed at the next level.
Mentally, Johnny Manziel is a teenager. Sure, he likes the image of being a playboy, but he'll have to put those antics aside if he wants to succeed in the NFL. Bortles beat Bridgewater in college. It's college, but he led his team in the Fiesta Bowl to 52 points on Baylor, which was ranked #6 in the country at the time.
I'm not so sure that Bortles doesn't have the mental toughness to play in the NFL (i.e., holding a team back). I don't know where that perception comes from and I think it's unfounded.
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I think Johnny and more so Teddy are bonafide Franchise QB's. I get why people question them because of their builds but Johnny is solid for his height and Teddy, while sleek, has the lower body bulk. If he had an average torso(probably 10-15 lbs) no one would say a thing. I feel like people look at the number more than his actual physique. He'll probably show up at the combine at 220.
I'm not questioning Manziel's abilities and toughness. I just think that if he thinks he can play his college game at the NFL level, he's in for the shock of his life. I simply don't think, with his frame/build that Bridgewater can play at this level. It would take more than 10-15 pounds. It would take 20-25, maybe even more. Maybe Bridgewater does show up at 6'-3" and 220# and can make all kinds of throws. He had better, because if he comes in looking too lean, his draft position will drop. Also, I think, among real scouts, not mock draft prognosticators, Bridgewater's stock is already down. He's going to have to put on that weight to recover it. I could see him being the Geno Smith of this QB class and slipping well into the 2nd round, maybe even further.
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Not to mention there's a reason pundits now are dropping Teddy. If they kept him rated no1 no one would read their blogs. He'll be the top QB come draft day. The proof is in the tape. Bortles is a 2nd round talent at best.
I don't agree with that. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next month and then between the Combine and the Draft.
You made a lot of good comments and we agreed on quite a bit. Just a few things I'd like to address.
What I mean when I speak of Bortles only being able to take you so far is my belief that under most circumstances you need a top10 QB to make the Superbowl. Sure the stars will align(ala the Ravens) but for the most part the teams in the playoffs and superbowl have top 10 guys. I don't think Bortles has that upside, at all. I think he has a high floor and a low ceiling.
When I spoke of Teddy/Johnny being on a different level mentally I was speaking of their abilities running a team on the field. I cannot argue Johnny has some growing up to do but between the lines Johnny and Teddy make decisions and process information nearly or as fast as any QB prospects.
The level of poise, accuracy, arm talent and decision making is far too great of Teddy for 20lbs to make me not want him. An athlete of his caliber should have no problem putting that on. While weight is an issue for a lot of positions because of the level of contact and speed/size differential as a QB it's purely about protection. While I acknowledge that he needs to put of weight I find that to be the least important thing for a QB(given that his stance/style are not usually injury garnering).
That's fine that you don't agree with my suspicion of pundits hacking their own boards. I will say though that it happens every year and it makes a lot of common sense. The NFL is a business first. But again there's no way to prove that. You say Teddy's stock is down, I say the real rankings don't come out until March. You'll have a few movers from the combine but for the most part I would think these guys being paid to evaluate wouldn't change their mind multiple times with minimal added data. To each their own.
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I think Manziel is a much much bigger injury risk than Bridgewater, just because of the way he plays the game -- 25 pounds isn't going to offset the fact that Manziel will take 3x as many hits as Bridgewater over the course of a season.
That was surprisingly well thought out and reasoned with examples for this board 
Compelling argument Lyuodkea 
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I think Manziel is a much much bigger injury risk than Bridgewater, just because of the way he plays the game -- 25 pounds isn't going to offset the fact that Manziel will take 3x as many hits as Bridgewater over the course of a season.
That was surprisingly well thought out and reasoned with examples for this board
Compelling argument Lyuodkea
Whether it was for my own standpoint or not, I agree. Very good post.
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You made a lot of good comments and we agreed on quite a bit. Just a few things I'd like to address.
What I mean when I speak of Bortles only being able to take you so far is my belief that under most circumstances you need a top10 QB to make the Superbowl. Sure the stars will align(ala the Ravens) but for the most part the teams in the playoffs and superbowl have top 10 guys. I don't think Bortles has that upside, at all. I think he has a high floor and a low ceiling.
Well, let's look at Manning. He's been to two Super Bowls (going 1-1) and will be going to his 3rd in a 16-year career (yeah, I know, he missed a year due to injury). He's top 10, right?
Dan Marino went once in 17 years and never after his 2nd year. He was certainly Top 10 during his playing career. He's in the HOF.
Dan Fouts never went to a Super Bowl in his 15 years. He's in the HOF.
Is Russell Wilson a Top 10 QB? He'll be in the Super Bowl. Personally, I don't think he's a Top 10 QB in the NFL. Sure, Seattle has a stifling defense, which helps.
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When I spoke of Teddy/Johnny being on a different level mentally I was speaking of their abilities running a team on the field. I cannot argue Johnny has some growing up to do but between the lines Johnny and Teddy make decisions and process information nearly or as fast as any QB prospects.
Bortles beat Bridgewater in Louisville with a last minute (with 23 seconds left) TD pass. I just don't see it the same way. Bortles is plenty good and you don't have to try and diminish him to make the case for Bridgewater. I simply think he's too thin to play that the next level. If I'm proved wrong, I'll readily admit it. I just think that Bortles is better (all around) and won't break in half.
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The level of poise, accuracy, arm talent and decision making is far too great of Teddy for 20lbs to make me not want him. An athlete of his caliber should have no problem putting that on. While weight is an issue for a lot of positions because of the level of contact and speed/size differential as a QB it's purely about protection. While I acknowledge that he needs to put of weight I find that to be the least important thing for a QB(given that his stance/style are not usually injury garnering).
I think that Bridgewater's weight is a huge issue. Not because he can't put the weight on, but doing so is going to screw with the mechanics of how he plays the game. He won't be able to play the game the same way as we was just a skinny college kid.
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That's fine that you don't agree with my suspicion of pundits hacking their own boards. I will say though that it happens every year and it makes a lot of common sense. The NFL is a business first. But again there's no way to prove that. You say Teddy's stock is down, I say the real rankings don't come out until March. You'll have a few movers from the combine but for the most part I would think these guys being paid to evaluate wouldn't change their mind multiple times with minimal added data. To each their own.
Oh, I don't disagree that the 'real' rankings on these guys won't come until the combines (including the school ones) and I don't think it's 'minimal added data' that they'll be getting. These kids are going to be put under every possible microscope and everything will be evaluated. Even post-combines, there will be more evaluations done and the final grades before their contracts are signed will be at the NFL Draft.
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I would be curious to see what Tom Brady's height and weight were when he was drafted compared to what they are now. Brady seemed quite slight of frame to me when he was drafted but now, while not big, is reasonably stout.
If anyone knows how to locate that would be appreciated. It may be fairly significant to this conversation. THen again, it could turn out to be meaningless and unrelated.
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3 out of 16 is pretty good my friend thanks for aiding my point. Trying to disprove something by reaching for outliers hardly merits. Marino? An absolute travesty. As many would argue is the absolute worst case of missing on the promise land I hardly see that reason to change my tune. Fouts? I can't say. Wasn't alive or old enough to watch him. Wilson I would absolutely call a top 10 QB, though borderline. That you think I must diminish Bortles to make a case for Bridgewater is foolish. He has been and is still widely regarded as the top QB in this class. I watch tape. Tape shows consistently that Bridgewater is the better QB IMO. That you disagree is fine but don't tell me Im diminishing Bortles to support my claim. Anything I say has been said before. I find it hard to believe that an elite athlete would be devastated by adding weight at the QB position. We should ask Tom Brady how hard it was to adapt to his weight. I think he found it useful not hindering. He was 211 after putting on weight. He still needed 15 lbs and I'd be surprised if he was 200 when he played his last game up north. You speak only common sense about the draft boards sir. My point was entirely different. Tape is by far the majority of an evaluation. Teams have been working on these players for a year. I find it hard to believe that someone doing so much detailed work would change Bridgewater from clear cut no1 overall to the 2nd round because of anything after January. I'm sorry but you make no case in my mind. I am done.
Last edited by predator16; 01/26/14 04:32 PM.
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That was quick - thanks.
So Teddy is listed as 6'3" 205# per the Louisville football webpage. We will find exact numbers at the combine. 2 inches shorter than Tom. Brady added 14#.
Add 14# to Teddy and I think he will be just fine - even if he played in the 190's this year.
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j/c
It needs to be pointed out that every year the top draft candidates get over analyzed at this time of year. As that takes place they usually have their "stock" drop. That's whats happening to Bridgewater right now. Granted his measurables are not ideal but his game tape remains impressive. He's thrived in a pro-style offense, he has the necessary poise in the pocket, his arms strength is adequate, he has demonstrated the ability to go through his progressions, his footwork is solid, his accuracy and decision making are above average. As much as I like Bortles, Teddy had done it for multiple seasons. I'm less concerned with Bridgewater's durability than Manziel. Brigdewater's game is executing in the pocket first, Johnny tends to run around and will take unnecessary hits outside the pocket. If Bridgewater and Manziel were both available at 4, I'm taking Teddy.
Reports list Bridgwater at about the same size as Matt Ryan, He's definitely as well put together as Mike Glennon.
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Teddy is my #1 prospect overall in this draft for the Browns regardless of position. I say for the Browns because I don't take him if I am the Colts.
I really like how he seems to be able to read defenses. I think Manziel reads them well too.
Bortles and Carr while better physical specimens are years behind those two when it comes to presnap reads.
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My qb rankings.
1.Bridgewater
2.Mettenberger
3.manzeil
4.bortles
5.Boyd
6Carr
7.murray
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#brownsgoodkarma
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I would be curious to see what Tom Brady's height and weight were when he was drafted compared to what they are now. Brady seemed quite slight of frame to me when he was drafted but now, while not big, is reasonably stout.
If anyone knows how to locate that would be appreciated. It may be fairly significant to this conversation. Then again, it could turn out to be meaningless and unrelated.
http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=4732
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3 out of 16 is pretty good my friend thanks for aiding my point.
I wasn't trying to dispute your point. Manning is going to be a HOF inductee. Being elite, he's taken his team to the Super Bowl 3 times. Dan Fouts, also a HOF inductee, never made it to the Super Bowl.
But, let me take the flip side of things.
Rex Grossman took the 2006 Chicago Bears to the Super Bowl. Is he an elite or even a franchise QB?
Matt Hasselbeck took the 2005 Seattle Seahawks to the Super Bowl. Is he elite or franchise QB?
Jake Delhomme took Carolina to the Super Bowl. Was he elite? Maybe during his stay in Carolina, he became their franchise QB.
Chris Chandler took Atlanta to the Super Bowl. Was he elite? A franchise QB?
Kerry Collins took the Giants to the Super Bowl. Elite? Franchise?
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Trying to disprove something by reaching for outliers hardly merits.
Outliers? The only one that could be called a 'franchise QB' (again, whatever that is!) would have been Jake Delhomme.
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Marino? An absolute travesty. As many would argue is the absolute worst case of missing on the promise land I hardly see that reason to change my tune.
He made it once, then never again. Travesty? He had a shot and didn't come through.
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Fouts? I can't say. Wasn't alive or old enough to watch him.
So, because you weren't alive or old enough invalidates it?
Let's add another one to the list, Tony Romo. Franchise QB? Elite?
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Wilson I would absolutely call a top 10 QB, though borderline.
Absolutely or borderline? Which is it? It's either absolute, or he's borderline. I can rip off a few QBs that I think I'd rather have than Wilson.
Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Eli Manning (despite the year he had), Nick Foles (yes, I would take him over Wilson), Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Alex Smith (yes, I would take him over Wilson), Philip Rivers.
I would certainly consider Andy Dalton, Ben Roethlisberger (even in the condition of his body), Joe Flacco and Matthew Stafford.
I think I would take most of them over Russell Wilson. Wilson is a good QB, but he's helped tremendously by his defense and running game.
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That you think I must diminish Bortles to make a case for Bridgewater is foolish. He has been and is still widely regarded as the top QB in this class. I watch tape. Tape shows consistently that Bridgewater is the better QB IMO. That you disagree is fine but don't tell me I'm diminishing Bortles to support my claim. Anything I say has been said before.
Okay. That isn't the way that I'm seeing it, but alright. As you wish.
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I find it hard to believe that an elite athlete would be devastated by adding weight at the QB position. We should ask Tom Brady how hard it was to adapt to his weight. I think he found it useful not hindering. He was 211 after putting on weight. He still needed 15 lbs and I'd be surprised if he was 200 when he played his last game up north.
He's been around his current weight, 225 pounds for his entire career. He hasn't been under 200 at ANY time in the NFL. Ever.
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You speak only common sense about the draft boards sir. My point was entirely different. Tape is by far the majority of an evaluation. Teams have been working on these players for a year. I find it hard to believe that someone doing so much detailed work would change Bridgewater from clear cut no1 overall to the 2nd round because of anything after January. I'm sorry but you make no case in my mind. I am done.
Again, we'll have to see where things shake out in the NFL Draft, however, I will say this much. Wasn't Geno Smith considered the top of the QB class last year?
Here's what Walter Football had for their final mock draft last year.
And what Bleacher Report had for theirs.
I could continue on pulling up more of them. But you get the idea. Geno Smith was the consensus pick as the first QB to be selected - high in the first round - and it didn't turn out that way. And this was days before the draft, not months away.
Don't go get ahead of yourself.
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Hall of Famer
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I did one, Manzeil was also available at #4
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QB BLAKE BORTLES
CENTRAL FLORIDA
26
WR MARQISE LEE
USC
35
G DAVID YANKEY
STANFORD
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CB MARCUS ROBERSON
FLORIDA
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OLB ADRIAN HUBBARD
ALABAMA
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DT ANTHONY JOHNSON
LSU
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S NICKOE WHITLEY
MISSISSIPPI STATE
133
RB CARLOS HYDE
OHIO STATE
164
RB DE’ANTHONY THOMAS
OREGON
195
G CHRIS WATT
NOTRE DAME
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Legend
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I wasn't trying to dispute your point. Manning is going to be a HOF inductee. Being elite, he's taken his team to the Super Bowl 3 times. Dan Fouts, also a HOF inductee, never made it to the Super Bowl.
But, let me take the flip side of things.
Rex Grossman took the 2006 Chicago Bears to the Super Bowl. Is he an elite or even a franchise QB?
Matt Hasselbeck took the 2005 Seattle Seahawks to the Super Bowl. Is he elite or franchise QB?
Jake Delhomme took Carolina to the Super Bowl. Was he elite? Maybe during his stay in Carolina, he became their franchise QB.
Chris Chandler took Atlanta to the Super Bowl. Was he elite? A franchise QB?
Kerry Collins took the Giants to the Super Bowl. Elite? Franchise?
None of those guys are elite, none of those guys won the super bowl either or ever made it back....
I'm not going to speak for predator, but just give my $.02... Having a top 10 QB doesn't guarantee you multiple super bowl wins... not having a top 10 QB almost does guarantee you that you will constantly struggle to even get close and makes it almost impossible for you to win one.
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Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Aaron Rogers, Tom Brady, Eli Manning (despite the year he had), Nick Foles (yes, I would take him over Wilson), Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Alex Smith (yes, I would take him over Wilson), Philip Rivers.
I would certainly consider Andy Dalton, Ben Roethlisberger (even in the condition of his body), Joe Flacco and Matthew Stafford.
I think I would take most of them over Russell Wilson. Wilson is a good QB, but he's helped tremendously by his defense and running game.
You are welcome to your opinion... I seriously doubt I would I take Peyton Manning at 37, Tom Brady at 36, or Brees at 35 over Russell Wilson at 25 right now considering where the Browns are...
As far as some of the other more questionable ones on your list like Nick Foles, Alex Smith, Cam Newton, Tony Romo, Andy Dalton... I'm not going to get into each one because you could make a case for and against each one of them...
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Wilson is a good QB, but he's helped tremendously by his defense and running game.
As is every QB that wins consistently in this league.. being smart enough to recognize what you have to do to win games should be viewed as a positive... in fact it wasn't until Cam Newton figured that out that they started to win games.. it also was not until their defense stepped up in his 3rd year that they made it to the playoffs... In fact, there are probably only a handful of QBs in history that seem to be able to win without a lot of other pieces so they might as well be removed from the conversation, the odds of finding one are pretty slim.
yebat' Putin
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Really like Sankey. Think he will be a great one.
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DE JADEVEON CLOWNEY
SOUTH CAROLINA
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WR ALLEN ROBINSON
PENN STATE
35
RB BISHOP SANKEY
WASHINGTON
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QB TAJH BOYD
CLEMSON
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CB KYLE FULLER
VIRGINIA TECH
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ILB YAWIN SMALLWOOD
UCONN
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RB CARLOS HYDE
OHIO STATE
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DT ANTHONY JOHNSON
LSU
164
OT SEANTREL HENDERSON
MIAMI
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OLB DEVON KENNARD
U
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I did one, Manzeil was also available at #4
I did one where I purposely avoided the Qb position in the 1st round. manziel fell to our pick in the 2nd round.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Legend
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Legend
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I did one, Manzeil was also available at #4
I did one where I purposely avoided the Qb position in the 1st round. manziel fell to our pick in the 2nd round.
That mock draft system is on crack.
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Hall of Famer
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I did one, Manzeil was also available at #4
I did one where I purposely avoided the Qb position in the 1st round. manziel fell to our pick in the 2nd round.
That mock draft system is on crack.
I agree, I trashed the first one because the Texans drafted Cyril Richardson with the #1 overall pick. 
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2nd String
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Here's a draft from http://fanspeak.com/ontheclock4 WR SAMMY WATKINS CLEMSON 26 CB DARQUEZE DENNARD MICHIGAN STATE 35 S HA’SEAN CLINTON-DIX ALABAMA 71 QB ZACH METTENBERGER LSU 83 RB KA’DEEM CAREY ARIZONA 102 RB ANDRE WILLIAMS BOSTON COLLEGE 123 G BRANDON THOMAS CLEMSON 133 QB AARON MURRAY GEORGIA 164 TE JOE DON DUNCAN DIXIE STATE 195 FB J.C. COPELAND LSU Almost all offense but improving the secondary dramatically. Imagine Haden, Clinton-Dix, Ward and Dennard as a secondary with Skrine and Gispon off the bench.
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Legend
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Legend
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Not bad but I'm not sold on Mettenberger.. seems like Weeden 2.0 only younger and maybe a slight upgrade...
Maybe I'm just tired of having a QB who, as soon as the pocket begins to break down, the play is over. I want a QB who is at least a bit of threat to hurt you with his legs..
yebat' Putin
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2nd String
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Yeah he isn't perfect but he is a great value in the 3rd. Then getting Murray in the 5th. You would think between those two and Hoyer you could find a legit franchise QB.
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2nd String
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2nd String
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I just did a draft on http://www.first-pick.com/NFL/DraftGame.aspxTraded CLE pick 4 to MIA for 1st round pick 19, 2nd round pick 18 and 2015 1st round pick. Knowing Pettine should automatically have more time (otherwise Banner and Co will be fired if they choose two coaches wrong). So netting that extra first is worth it. Also at pick 4 Maziel, Carr and Bortles were all available so I figured I'd risk it. Round 1 Pick 19 (MIA): Khalil Mack, OLB, Buffalo (A) Round 1 Pick 26: Johnny Manziel, QB, Texas A&M (A) Round 2 Pick 3: Cyril Richardson, OG, Baylor (B+) Round 2 Pick 18 (MIA): Jordan Matthews, WR, Vanderbilt (B+) Round 3 Pick 7: Chris Borland, ILB, Wisconsin (A-) Round 3 Pick 19: Paul Richardson, WR, Colorado (A-) Round 4 Pick 6: Carlos Hyde, RB, Ohio State (A) Round 4 Pick 27: Andre Williams, RB, Boston College (A) Round 5 Pick 5: A.J. McCarron, QB, Alabama (A) Round 6 Pick 4: Deion Belue, CB, Alabama (B+) Round 7 Pick 3: Cody Hoffman, WR, Brigham Young (B-)
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None of those guys are elite, none of those guys won the super bowl either or ever made it back....
You're right, but that wasn't the criteria. The criteria was whether they could get their respective teams to the Super Bowl. They all have the same credentials as Dan Marino has (who would be considered elite) and more than Dan Fouts (who would also be considered elite).
The claim was that you need an elite or franchise QB to make that leap to the Super Bowl. That's obviously not the case.
Trent Dilfer actually won the Super Bowl. Would he be 'elite' or even a 'franchise' QB? You might say that he was for Tampa Bay, but he wasn't for the team he led to their first Super Bowl victory and he never made it again.
The view that you have to have the 'franchise QB' (again, whatever that is) and must use a high first round draft pick to get it so that you can go to the Super Bowl is just pure hogwash.
If you feel differently, then fine. It's still hogwash.
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I'm not going to speak for predator, but just give my $.02... Having a top 10 QB doesn't guarantee you multiple super bowl wins... not having a top 10 QB almost does guarantee you that you will constantly struggle to even get close and makes it almost impossible for you to win one.
Fran Tarkenton, an elite QB of his era and future HOFer, never won a Super Bowl. Jim Kelly, another elite QB of his era and future HOFer, never won a Super Bowl but made four consecutive trips, going 0-4 in them.
Making it to the game doesn't ensure success, elite QB or not.
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You are welcome to your opinion... I seriously doubt I would I take Peyton Manning at 37, Tom Brady at 36, or Brees at 35 over Russell Wilson at 25 right now considering where the Browns are...
Yes, I would take Peyton Manning (who said that he won't retire after this season). I would take him for just one more season over a career of Russell Wilson.
Tom Brady wants to play until he's 40. There's no reason to think he won't be able to do it. Would I take the next 4 years of Tom Brady as my QB to an entire 15-year career of Russell Wilson? 100 out of 100 times.
Would I take the next 5 years or so of Drew Brees to Russell Wilson's career? Again, 100 out of 100 times.
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As far as some of the other more questionable ones on your list like Nick Foles, Alex Smith, Cam Newton, Tony Romo, Andy Dalton... I'm not going to get into each one because you could make a case for and against each one of them...
I'll make my case for each one.
I wanted the Browns to select Nick Foles. He's proved why he should have been taken.
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As is every QB that wins consistently in this league.. being smart enough to recognize what you have to do to win games should be viewed as a positive... in fact it wasn't until Cam Newton figured that out that they started to win games.. it also was not until their defense stepped up in his 3rd year that they made it to the playoffs... In fact, there are probably only a handful of QBs in history that seem to be able to win without a lot of other pieces so they might as well be removed from the conversation, the odds of finding one are pretty slim.
Every system (including football) has an equilibrium. Seattle wins because of their defense. Wilson certainly doesn't hurt his team's chances, but does he really enhance them all that much? Nope. Make no mistake, if Seattle's defense slips, Wilson isn't good enough to bail them out in most cases. Tom Brady can compensate when his defense isn't on. The same goes for Peyton Manning. That is what could make HOF QBs out of otherwise mediocre teams.
Maybe Russell Wilson will have a HOF career. There is no telling that at this point, but I would rather have a surefire HOF QB that's still able to produce than Russell Wilson as my QB... every single time.
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Hall of Famer
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Not bad but I'm not sold on Mettenberger.. seems like Weeden 2.0 only younger and maybe a slight upgrade...
You should go view those plays on that website that was linked to for 'every' prospect. Mettenberger, if available by the Browns should be taken. It's kind of tricky though. How far will he fall due to the injury? My guess, is not out of the 2nd round. I would take him if I were selecting for the Browns.
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Maybe I'm just tired of having a QB who, as soon as the pocket begins to break down, the play is over. I want a QB who is at least a bit of threat to hurt you with his legs..
I want a QB that can hurt you with his arm. That's what Mettenberger can do.
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Legend
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Legend
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I tried one of these and I think it got a little outta hand.....I pulled an Eric Mangini and traded down at least three or four times from my original draft slot....I drafted on NEED for the most part, but it was fun to do.
Round 1 Pick 15 (PITT): Johnny Manziel, QB, Texas A&M (B+)
Round 1 Pick 26: C.J. Mosley, OLB, Alabama (A)
Round 2 Pick 3: Bishop Sankey, RB, Washington (B)
Round 2 Pick 9 (BUF): Cyril Richardson, OG, Baylor (A-)
Round 2 Pick 11 (NYG): David Yankey, OG, Stanford (B-)
Round 2 Pick 14 (PITT): Brandin Cooks, WR, Oregon State (B+)
Round 2 Pick 19 (CHI): Odell Beckham, WR, LSU (B)
Round 3 Pick 7: Shayne Skov, ILB, Stanford (A)
Round 3 Pick 9 (BUF): Bryan Stork, C, Florida State (B+)
Round 3 Pick 19: Carlos Hyde, RB, Ohio State (A)
Round 4 Pick 6: Dion Bailey, FS, Dion Bailey, FS, Southern California (A)
Round 4 Pick 13 (NYG): Jimmy Garoppolo, QB, Eastern Illinois (A)
Round 4 Pick 17 (CHI): Chris Davis, CB, Auburn (B)
Round 4 Pick 27: Stanley Jean-Baptiste, CB, Nebraska (C+)
Round 5 Pick 5: Greg Blair, ILB, Cincinnati (F)
Round 6 Pick 4: J.C. Copeland, FB, LSU (A-)
Round 7 Pick 3: Jeff Budzien, K, Northwestern (B+)
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Hall of Famer
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Why would you take an OLB that early?
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Legend
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Legend
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Why would you take an OLB that early?
I think Mosely can play ILB.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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~ Legend
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Mosley played inside at Bama his entire career. I'm not sure why they list him as an OLB.
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Dawg Talker
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NRTU OK I haven't been around in a while...but I thought I would throw my results into the ring as a nice return post....It happened to end up a little BigTen heavy...not the intent...just happened. 4. WR Sammy Watkins Clemson 26. QB Derek Carr Fresno State 35. S Ha’Sean Clinton-Dix Alabama 71. WR Jared Abbrederis Wisconsin 83. ILB Max Bullough Michigan State 102. RB Carlos Hyde Ohio State 123. RB James White Wisconsin 133. QB Jimmy Garoppolo Eastern Illinois 164. CB Chris Davis Auburn 195. G Michael Schofield Michigan Can't say I would be too upset with this....I wanted Guard MUCH earlier but Yankey was gone before my second pick....(I am seeing some of you got him in the second round or later....damn....) I like the Hyde/White combo... Abbrederis just gets open and catches everything.....and to get Bullough late in the 3rd.....works for me...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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Legend
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we took one at #6 in case you forgot....
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
we took one at #6 in case you forgot....
This is a 2014 thread though....
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 Mock Draft.
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