|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
but, when it comes to safety standards and fair practice, you always have more strength in numbers.
This is a ruse. Once the foot gets in the door under the facade of player safety, the money angle will follow. Cut everyone one these kids tomorrow and give the scholarships to those who want to get paid the 60K / year for a great education. Send the message now to rest of the nation, the thug union heads and their corrupt attorneys.
I have no doubt that one of the reasons that the big unions are so quick to help these guys is that they see the billion dollar enterprise of college football and want to get a piece.
That doesn't mean there are not real issues to take up that a player union couldn't help these kids out with.
Over-signing
Gray-shirting
1 year scholarships
Long-term injury medical costs
Gameday and practice safety/health standards
Et cetera
The "Et cetera" is the #1 issue for me. 
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
Why does Northwestern want to come down hard on this though? It's likely to cost them way more money in alumni donations and bad press -- then it will if they allow it to go where it goes?
Unlike a lot of big state football schools - Northwestern does not get a significant portion of its income from football.
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739 |
j/c
Funny thing about unions. Had companies had been fair and kept their workers somewhat safe, there never would have been unions in the first place.
When studying it, it was companies, especially coal, that used the strong armed tactics. Yet when they fought fire with fire, they're the bad guys.
Sometimes reading these threads crack me up with the "mob" comments. They were brought in because workers HAD to fight force with force. Revisionist history is comical.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I, for one, don't believe the NCAA will exist in it's current state just a few short years from now so this may all end up being moot.. however, I hope these kids realize that if they want to unionize and enter into a negotiation to get these things "fixed".. it will be a negotiation, it won't be a one-sided wish list of things the players want the NCAA to fix...
So when things like.. If you get suspended for academic or conduct reasons and you can't play on the field, we can withhold all of your benefits, like your room and board, your access to training facilities, etc... start to get put on the table, then let's see... or.. you want the best medical treatment money can buy, get it through your union provided insurance....
Right now, the NCAA has an awful lot of money and an awful lot of power... and I doubt they are going to allow themselves to be boxed into a corner by some well-meaning college kids who come in with their new union lawyer friends....
College age kids are, by nature, pie-in-the-sky dreamers with minimal life experience and a notion that all things should be fair.. I don't fault them for that, it's just the way 20ish year old kids are.... so if they want to get some back-up and go toe to toe in the real world, I just hope they are getting good advice.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
I don't think anything on the wishlist (at least as given right now) is "pie in the sky" -- in fact, it's super minimal, given that they are the key employees of an organization that makes ~10 billion per year. http://espn.go.com/ncaa/revenue
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Agreed.
--Child labor.
--16 hour work days.
--No benefits.
--No fire escapes.
--Dangerous conditions that led to severe injuries and death.
But, the companies are the good guys.
As to the Northwestern story............I think it is bigger than these kids attempting to form a union. I do think that the NCAA exploits its athletes. I think the NCAA is corrupt.
I believe that this move will get the ball rolling on its way towards many universities cutting their football programs from the NCAA and paying its players to participate. Y'all might want to check out what's going on in the SEC.
Football is big business for the networks. If the top programs cut ties w/the NCAA and form their own organization. The networks aren't going to show a lot of MAC and Sun Belt Conference games. They will follow the big schools that come from the 6 large power conferences.
I know this sounds really out there, but just look at the changes that have occurred since the 1970s. Change is on the way and I won't feel any sympathy for the corrupt NCAA and its exploitation of athletes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
I've been saying the same thing.
There really should be four divisions in college football:
Div0 - Power conferences (SEC, Big10, ACC, Big12, Pac12)
Div1 - Mid Majors (MAC, AA, CUSA, Independents, MW, Sun Belt)
Div2 - Stays the same
Div3 - Stays the same
If you're playing in Div1, you may get to the NFL, but it's rare. These guys don't get paid.
If you're playing in Div0, you're probably there to get in the NFL, but it's not an guarantee. These guys should get paid*.
And this would clean up how Toledo, Idaho, and FAU have virtually no shot at winning the FBS/BCS title in the division it's playing in. They aren't the same as OSU, Bama or FSU and shouldn't be playing against each other.
*how much, by whom, everybody gets paid the same, guaranteed scholorships, etc.....all questions I don't have the answers to.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Quote:
Agreed.
--Child labor.
--16 hour work days.
--No benefits.
--No fire escapes.
--Dangerous conditions that led to severe injuries and death.
But, the companies are the good guys.
Yeah...this goes on all the time today. Look....Unions absolutely had their place in the day, but with a few exceptions, those days are gone. If you are a waitress, I say go for unionization. Those are the people exploited in today's labor market.
This? If anyone thinks the Steelworkers Union gives a flipping hoot for these kids, they are on something. This is the same union that unionized their jobs straight to Asia. They want one thing. Money. And, they will cut off their own noses to get it.
These kids are making $60k per semester in tuition. What are they going to pay in union dues? Pencils? This is why once the slope is greased, its going to be all about being paid. Then what? You gotta pay the Basketball players. Can't forget the women. Title-nine. Don't forget the soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, baseball, etc.
Am I a fan of the NCAA? No. But it is Amateur players...not Professional.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,331 |
Quote:
College age kids are, by nature, pie-in-the-sky dreamers with minimal life experience and a notion that all things should be fair.. I don't fault them for that, it's just the way 20ish year old kids are.... so if they want to get some back-up and go toe to toe in the real world, I just hope they are getting good advice.
That's the biggest thing. They are college kids with good intentions. Hell, Coulter found out about this stuff in class, was interested, called someone up, and got things rolling. He's doing this while trying to get into the NFL. It's nice seeing a young guy with some passion. I don't see what he stands to gain by doing this other than what he sees as helping out fellow NCAA Div. 1 Players. I don't think he's looking to become President and make a big paycheck and drive around in a Cadillac Escalade with goons all around him (the way that my union's president does).
Cutting the whole team would be a ridiculous reaction. And who the heck would sign up to play football at Northwestern after that?
I'm part of a union. There's plenty of things about it that get me all upset. But, if I gotta be part of it to work at my job, I'm definitely gonna use it, lol. And there are some things that are good about the union too. It does offer me protection against being unfairly fired by my employer. It does ensure that if I get hurt on the job (which can happen, my job is dangerous), that I will be given fair compensation and treatment. It ensures that I'm not overworked, and it negotiates my working terms.
Now I can give a huge list of reasons why they . me off, and I won't. But there is some good.
Coulter and the Northwestern team aren't going into this looking to scam the NCAA or anything like that. And I think some folks are being just a little too harsh. But as you said DC, I hope these kids are getting good advice. Because one thing I do realize is these union presidents are in it to make a buck for them and their union. And that's the truth about that. Whoever this union is (and it very well could be the parent union of mine, lol) is listening to this and smiling with money signs in their eyes. And I'm not sure the Northwestern players realize this. They feel like they're being used by the NCAA, well they're also gonna be used by their union, no matter what they're told. I deal with it regularly
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 01/29/14 01:52 PM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
Yeah...this goes on all the time today.
Is this a serious comment?
It doesn't go on. And why doesn't it? Because the owners of companies all of a sudden grew a kind heart? 
I also never said anything about them becoming unionized. I spoke of the major football programs splitting from the corrupt NCAA and forming their own organization. It's coming..........and you are going to have to deal w/it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah...this goes on all the time today.
Is this a serious comment?
It doesn't go on. And why doesn't it? Because the owners of companies all of a sudden grew a kind heart?
I also never said anything about them becoming unionized. I spoke of the major football programs splitting from the corrupt NCAA and forming their own organization. It's coming..........and you are going to have to deal w/it.
I guess I should have used purple.
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah...this goes on all the time today.
Is this a serious comment?
It doesn't go on. And why doesn't it? Because the owners of companies all of a sudden grew a kind heart?
I also never said anything about them becoming unionized. I spoke of the major football programs splitting from the corrupt NCAA and forming their own organization. It's coming..........and you are going to have to deal w/it.
I guess I should have used purple.
No need for purple.
It does go on today, all over the world.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
http://espn.go.com/college-football/stor...in-bid-unionizeQuote:
CHICAGO -- Northwestern Wildcats football players and the College Athletes Players Association on Wednesday won their petition through the National Labor Relations Board to form a union and bargain for benefits.
As a result, Northwestern players will hold a vote on whether to unionize, a decision that will clearly impact college football and college sports generally. Northwestern said in a statement that it will appeal the decision.
"While we respect the NLRB process and the regional director's opinion, we disagree with it. Northwestern believes strongly that our student-athletes are not employees, but students," the university's statement read. "Unionization and collective bargaining are not the appropriate methods to address the concerns raised by student-athletes."
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Maybe I missed it - if so, my bad - but, what do the players want out of this?
Do they want to be paid?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Will be fun when the NCAA rules them all academically ineligible, they lose their scholarships, Northwestern loses their football program, and the union hires some people to stand in front of the campus with "Shame on" signs. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
Quote:
Maybe I missed it - if so, my bad - but, what do the players want out of this?
Do they want to be paid?
They are specifically not asking for pay.
Officially they are asking for better medical coverage for sports related injuries (including coverage extending beyond the players career if the injury was due to a sports injury). Independent concussion experts on the sidelines during games - and an arbitration committee to determine whether an athlete can be stripped of his scholarship by a coach.
That being said, forming a union would be a good step if you wanted to demand compensation at a later date.
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe I missed it - if so, my bad - but, what do the players want out of this?
Do they want to be paid?
They are specifically not asking for pay.
Officially they are asking for better medical coverage for sports related injuries (including coverage extending beyond the players career if the injury was due to a sports injury). Independent concussion experts on the sidelines during games - and an arbitration committee to determine whether an athlete can be stripped of his scholarship by a coach.
That being said, forming a union would be a good step if you wanted to demand compensation at a later date.
Well, who could be against that, right?
Next thing you know, the union will demand playing time based on seniority. Then, a player 40 years down the road will have a health issue and demand N.W. take care of it, AND give him disability. Then the basketball team joins in, the swim team, the track team, etc etc etc.
Hey, if you're in a union, you have to pay dues, right? Are these people going to pay dues, or will they expect N.W. to pay them?
If they go union, will those on scholarship be okay paying taxes on the $50,000 or so "income" they get by going to college for free?
N.W. should put that in the kids mind.......let's face it, not many go to N.W. with nfl in mind - they go with "scholarship at a darn good school? I'll take it" in mind. Then the school should say "due to recent events, we are revoking all scholarships. We realize our athletic department will cease to exist, but we have been and always will be an academic's first school. This will not change. It's been great having athletics at N.W., but for now, we'll have to put that off. We will, however, be able to offer more academic scholarships."
Eh, I'm just ranting now. Take it for what it's worth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739 |
Quote:
Eh, I'm just ranting now. Take it for what it's worth.
Yes, the word "union" was mentioned so I knew it would just be a matter of time until you exploded.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
He has a point, unions ruin everything and should be blamed for everything.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,468
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 52,468 |
jc
honestly, i'm glad they won it. i think not getting paid by the college because they get full ride scholarships is fine. better medical coverage definitely is needed.
but the players should have legal rights to take endorsement deals from sponsors, like Nike and such.
i understand that they get a full ride, and the school themselves pay for room and board, ETC. but as we all know, some of these kids already have...well, kids, and being fully committed to a sports program, a part time job is pretty much out of the question.
i think since the NCAA makes so much money off of THEIR performance anyway, kids getting sponsored shouldn't be a problem in the first place.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
being fully committed to a sports program, a part time job is pretty much out of the question.
They're only allowed to make like $2,000 gross a year at a job, anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Eh, I'm just ranting now. Take it for what it's worth.
Yes, the word "union" was mentioned so I knew it would just be a matter of time until you exploded.
Yeah, most "unions" don't do much for me. Too many "unions" do nothing but screw the company any more.
Our local school has missed 17 days this year due to weather. Ohio allows 5 days. Ohio passed a new bill allowing 4 extra days for weather - that gives us 9 days of "forgiveness'. Still need to, as of now, make up 8 days.
Our schools are currently off for a week - 5 days. For "spring break". They get 2 days off for Easter Break.
But, our school couldn't break the "contract" with the teachers on spring break or easter break.........I mean, that's in the contract. Consequently our schools will run over the scheduled finish date.
Luckily, we've added 30 minutes per day - which will gain us a total of 5 days of "school" time....
Unions - screw the company - we don't give a rats ass about reality, we want it all, and we want it now. That way we can retire after teaching 30 years, and get our pension and health care paid.
Unions - once needed. Now? Adding legacy costs that cannot be afforded in any way.
Now, there are some unions that understand that they are ridiculous, but not many. Once needed, now too powerful.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
He has a point, unions ruin everything and should be blamed for everything.
You're right. I think tomorrow I'm going to sign up for a union so I get the benefits. I surely shouldn't have to show an i.d., right? I shouldn't have to prove I'm a member - they should just give me the benefit of the doubt, right?
After all, I shouldn't need to show an i.d. to vote, because it is too costly and inconvenient. Consequently, I certainly wouldn't have to prove I belong to a union - I can just take the benefits, right?
I mean, if you don't have to have an i.d. to vote, why would I have to have an i.d. to get union benefits????? Someone else will pay, right? Maybe even you, chs, would have to pay for me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Are you going to bring voter ID into every thread now?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
No. Just know that you need to be paying for me.........or, SOMEONE has to be paying for me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
J/C
I'm rooting these guys on, not because I want them to be a union, but because I want this system to collapse. The universities are hiding behind offering a free education while pocketing billions off free labor. Meanwhile, the NFL is saying these kids HAVE to stay three years because they're bodies aren't ready for the pro's. BS. You telling me Jadeveon Clowney didn't have a pro body last year while Johnny Manziel does this year? Please.
And then you talk about coaches leaving for better paying jobs at the drop of a hat while the players have to stay even though they signed on for the coach. And then the NCAAs drops probation on a school while a former coach or player is long gone.
The whole system is so broken and corrupt, it's disgusting.
Eventually the BCS schools should break off and have their own league outside of the NCAAs. They can pay the players, have a big playoff, keep players for three years and stop lying about what they are, a feeding system for the NFL. The mid-majors stay with the current system.
So, go NW players, break the system.
..with all that being said, I really do like watching college football. I just want it fixed.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802 |
Why do you use quotation marks around every word you don't like that is most definitely a word and not a figure of speech?
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186 |
I agree. I don't even care if these players go to school. If they don't want the education, give them the value in cash. I know a full ride to Ohio State was 80k over 4 years, but that was 15 years ago. Let them make money of jersey's, have endorsements, whatever a pro could do, I think they should be able to capitalize on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Will be fun when the NCAA rules them all academically ineligible, they lose their scholarships, Northwestern loses their football program, and the union hires some people to stand in front of the campus with "Shame on" signs.
The NCAA wouldn't have to rule them academically ineligible, just in violation of their rules.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,577
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,577 |
Quote:
Unions - screw the company - we don't give a rats ass about reality, we want it all, and we want it now. That way we can retire after teaching 30 years, and get our pension and health care paid.
Unions - once needed. Now? Adding legacy costs that cannot be afforded in any way.
smh.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Jay Bilas on Northwestern Players Unionizing "If the NCAA was in charge of the Sahara Desert, they would claim there isn't enough sand left over for the Student Athletes.." - Jay Bilas
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,426
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,426 |
Quote:
Unions - once needed. Now? Adding legacy costs that cannot be afforded in any way.
I agreed with this for the longest time. However, in the past two years I've moved to a national company and taken a more active role in staffing than I previously had. During my orientation, the first thing I was trained on was union-breaking tactics and how to get people fired for discussing organizing. Then, the company has constantly tried screwing the employees. Luckily, I don't have an active role in that side and I document my objections. However, there is a part of me that would love to see the staff unionize and call the company on some of the questionable (and I'm being generous in that term) tactics that they use..
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739 |
Some people only look at things from one side. I believe in many cases, both unions and companies take things to extremes. In some cases unions go too far and in some cases, depending on the company, people need unions.
It's not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Quote:
Some people only look at things from one side. I believe in many cases, both unions and companies take things to extremes. In some cases unions go too far and in some cases, depending on the company, people need unions.
It's not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
+1
College football needs this to break down the system because it's completely one-sided right now.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,075 |
Quote:
Some people only look at things from one side. I believe in many cases, both unions and companies take things to extremes. In some cases unions go too far and in some cases, depending on the company, people need unions.
It's not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
Agreed. 
As with most issues, balance is the key. I'm in a union that doesn't carry much clout, so its main function (recently) has been to protect its members from unreasonable wage freezes/rollbacks. We've managed to blunt much of the hurt that could have been felt if some of the more knee-jerk admin were allowed to overreact to the troubling current economic climate. Some years ago (when times were a bit better), our union's role was to -check this out- actually work together with admin to raise the work standards for the members.
For us, the dynamics are a bit different than say the UAW/Big Three, because the players aren't just workers... they are the product, as well. Kind of a unique situation- and one for which the "adversarial negotiating model" just doesn't work. Consequently, negotiations have (almost) always been a collaborative effort, rather than the stereotypical 'ball-busting exercises' that many Americans are accustomed to.
Still, had it not been for the AFM, things would probably still be run like they were in the 1960's... and our bunch never would have grown to the point that we'd be invited to play Carnegie Hall.
In essence, the interaction between admin and our union reps has actually made the organization grow. New resources were found, new thinking raised the standards- and today, players have a living wage. 30 years ago, ALL positions were considered 'part-time employment.'
It really is a bit more complex than simply "greedy unions" vs. "evil, skinflint management." Those parties that manage to negotiate the 'shades of gray' without rancor, posturing, and penis-waving have the chance to raise the tide for all boats in the water. I've seen it happen.
When handled properly, there are no 'good guys' OR 'villains.'
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
Some people only look at things from one side. I believe in many cases, both unions and companies take things to extremes. In some cases unions go too far and in some cases, depending on the company, people need unions.
It's not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.
Agreed.
As with most issues, balance is the key. I'm in a union that doesn't carry much clout, so its main function (recently) has been to protect its members from unreasonable wage freezes/rollbacks. We've managed to blunt much of the hurt that could have been felt if some of the more knee-jerk admin were allowed to overreact to the troubling current economic climate. Some years ago (when times were a bit better), our union's role was to -check this out- actually work together with admin to raise the work standards for the members.
For us, the dynamics are a bit different than say the UAW/Big Three, because the players aren't just workers... they are the product, as well. Kind of a unique situation- and one for which the "adversarial negotiating model" just doesn't work. Consequently, negotiations have (almost) always been a collaborative effort, rather than the stereotypical 'ball-busting exercises' that many Americans are accustomed to.
Still, had it not been for the AFM, things would probably still be run like they were in the 1960's... and our bunch never would have grown to the point that we'd be invited to play Carnegie Hall.
In essence, the interaction between admin and our union reps has actually made the organization grow. New resources were found, new thinking raised the standards- and today, players have a living wage. 30 years ago, ALL positions were considered 'part-time employment.'
It really is a bit more complex than simply "greedy unions" vs. "evil, skinflint management." Those parties that manage to negotiate the 'shades of gray' without rancor, posturing, and penis-waving have the chance to raise the tide for all boats in the water. I've seen it happen.
When handled properly, there are no 'good guys' OR 'villains.'
.02
You, and pit (and logdawg in a bit) - I understand what you are saying, and agree.
Some unions are there for the employees AND the company. Some are their only for the employees.
I base my thoughts on what I have seen and been told - that's all I have to go on.
A couple of examples dealing with the uaw. My neighbor. He's constantly bragging about how he can't get fired because the union will save him. He works at the gm powertrain plant in Defiance Ohio. He spends like a drunken sailor because he knows exactly how many days he has left until he retires, and then "I'll get my pension and be set." I don't talk to him much anymore, and we were never good friends anyway.
Another guy - worked at the same plant - this goes back about 13 years or so, when I worked at a dealership. He came in, wanting to buy a new vehicle. Was there at 8:30 in the morning. He was drunk. Wanted to take a test drive. I said something along the lines of "let's look at your trade in first". Sure enough, beer cans, even an open beer in the cup holder.
I said "I can't let you drive one of our vehicles - you've been drinking. He proceeded to tell me "hey, I've been at work all night - of course, I'm in what's called a heavy lifting job, so I work 2 hours, then my replacement works 2 hours while I rest, etc.
In other words, this heavy lifting job needed 2 people to do 1 shift - if that makes sense.
But, he then proceeded to tell me that the job wasn't all that tough, so he and his co-worker (and many others in the same situation) did this: one guy would work the entire shift while the other guy sat in the break room the entire shift, playing cards. Next night they switched - other one would work while the other one would sit in the break room.
They did need to "hide" their beer though.
I found that interesting, and he volunteered that the company wouldn't do anything about it, because it would cost them more to fire him/them than it would to keep them - because of the union.
How often it went on, I have no clue.
Another example: our school system has missed 17 days of school so far this year. State requires 185 days of teaching........state allows 5 calamity days. State recently added 4 days to that - for a total of 9 "excused" days. That means we still have 8 days to make up.
Our schools are closed this week for spring break. Our schools are also close the thursday and friday before easter - Easter break.
The subject of having school during spring break (taking 5 days off the 8 we need to make up) was broached and totally shot down. Why? Because the teacher's union had it in their contract that they get a week of spring break, and you can't break that contract.
Consequently, school will last longer (into the summer) than scheduled. The union wasn't flexible.
These things are the type of thing I base my feelings on. I know there are good and flexible unions.......and there are bad. I have had dealings with a few - and that's what I base my views on.
This is long enough, I'll stop soon.
Log - you had similar views to me, until you were on the other side. I understand that, and appreciate that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 121
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 121 |
J/C Clem...
I really have no issues if athletes eventually unionize, I just want them to then be held to the same standard that other students are. I get that they are doing great things for the university and they are providing a source of income for the university that they aren't reaping the benfits for.
HOWEVER, like the great majority of follks that went to college, I had to make my way through school with loans, a full time job and still make my grades acceptable. If they go down this path, then I hope athletic scholarships are abolished and they have to get into schools on the same merits everyone else does. I know that will never happen, especially given that schools are as corrupt as any institutions in America, but at least the standards need to be as uniform as possible for all incoming students.
On a certain level, student athletes are a farce anyway and the special treatment they recieve is an insult to anyone that worked their way through college.
"If you need two yards, I'll get you two yards. If you need four yards, I'll get you two yards!" Ron Wolfley, Special Teams Madman
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739 |
And I believe that's all anyone expects, is that we don't lump all unions into the same category.
My dad worked building A/C's for Chrysler. He actually worked under an IUE contract. He said that his union was set up for all the right reasons. Without the unions, nobody would have ever been treated fairly.
But he said that by the late 80's, the union had become an enemy of the worker more than a friend, by protecting people much in the same fashion you outlined. Protecting good workers to an extent is what I consider a good thing. But when you tie the hands of the company from weeding out the bad, you hurt not only the company, but the good workers.
There's good and bad with everything and things created for the most noble of reasons can and do end up being abused and morph into things they were never intended to be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Northwestern Players Attempt to
Form Union
|
|
