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Just read the bio's of the coaching staff as of today.
TE coach - weak resume
Assistant DB Coach - weak resume
LB Coach - weak pro resume
Assistant LB Coach - weak resume
Secondary Coach - not much experience
Speciality teams - Chris Tabor retained
Still to be named the line coaches, receivers, running backs.
Not saying Jason La Canfora is the last word but in this article he rips Kyle Shanahan:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jaso...ins-dysfunction
This staff as it now stands has a lot to prove.
I guess the only thing you can say from a positive point of view is you can not get much lower so improvement could be the only direction.
I guess I don't see what you see. Other than Babich, who was a hold over from Chuds staff, as asst DB coach, the guy you mention have 20-30 years experience. I wouldn't call that weak.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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~ Legend
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Brian Angelichio
7 years of coaching TE worked with:
Nate Byham (5 year)
Dallas Clark (1 year)
Luke Stocker (1 year)
Dorin Dicerson (4 years)
DC Jefferson (1 year)
Chuck Driesbach
2nd year in the NFL, but has 34 years of college exp. including working as DC of Rice and Ole Miss.
Jeff Hafley
3 years working in the NFL. 5 Years working in D1. Coached:
Revis (2 years)
Kennard Cox (2 years)
Logan Ryan (1 year)
Marcus Cooper (1 year)
Note: Despite having DR and Goldson they only finished 11th in the NFL in pass defense per Football Outsiders.
Those are our coaches and experience. One thing that was interesting was the amount of them that were from Rutgers and Pitt within the same time period (Angelichio, Babich, Hafley). So it does look like we have a young coaching staff with not that much NFL experience.
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lol, Daman, my "carried away" days are far behind me.
anarchy, I will try the Pyrat, thanks!
Back on point, I'm really looking forward to the zone blocking running scheme Shanny will institute, I'm certain we'll get a decent back in here to fit that scheme (Hyde, Hill, Wilder) but we have to get a couple really good and mobile blockers in the mix. Does Greco fit the bill? Do we keep Mack? That would seem like the smart move, even though we'll need to pay for the privilege. Also, Schwartz looks like he's starting to grasp the position, does he have the mobility to be effective in the new scheme?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I think that most of us are in the "Man, I really, really, really hope this one works" camp.
I attended that camp when we drafted Mike Phipps
I've been punch drunk since the hope of Bud Carson
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If I remember correctly, many of the guys on the board criticized the Mack pick because he seemed best aligned towards a zone blocking scheme and Mangini was using a power system.
So, if thats truly the case, then it seems like we re-sign him and he continues to improve and attend the pro bowl.
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Well the coaching standard to beat was set last year. This new regime must win more than 4 games and have at least 6 ProBowlers. That's what Chud and company managed. If we can't improve on that then what does it say about the overhaul?
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
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if thats truly the case, then it seems like we re-sign him and he continues to improve and attend the pro bowl.
That would be the logical move. The question is, will Banner spend the money?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Who knows maybe in the Browns past we went too much Resume and not enough - interpretation of their knowledge and the ability to teach football.
That's all I care about. Resume - don't care as long as he knows his stuff and is always willing to continue learning and is a darn good teacher and motivator.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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They made the hires. Maybe there was not a lot to chose from because of the time frame.
My concern is the lack of pro ball experience. College and the pros are vastly different.
Maybe I am wrong here but it would seem logical that players respond better to guys who have played or coached professional football.
I can see assistant coaches as young apprentices but coordinators, OL, DL, QB's RB, WR, TE, LB, DB's; I would like guys with NFL experience as players or coaches.
In the end who knows how much it matters.
Pettine may not have that many contacts. Maybe the staff will change some as time goes by.
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Last year's staff was universally lauded for their collective experience....and they stunk up the joint. Hire bright people and hope for the best. Experience is overrated because this process is a crap shoot anyway.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Last year's staff was universally lauded for their collective experience....and they stunk up the joint. Hire bright people and hope for the best. Experience is overrated because this process is a crap shoot anyway.
Maybe enough time to make things work would help?
Of course with the great QB play and running game they had to work with, I was expecting SO MUCH MORE!
I believe the fan base bought their own pre-season hype.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Last year's staff was universally lauded for their collective experience....and they stunk up the joint. Hire bright people and hope for the best. Experience is overrated because this process is a crap shoot anyway.
I'm not sure I'd ever go so far as to say that "experience is overrated" 
Having said that, sometimes when you hire a guy that has to reach to do the job, they work harder and end up being better. so it could be just fine.
As for the last coaching staff stinking up the joint, hey, if the FO doesn't get Pettine a QB and a RB and Another receiver, this staff may possibly stink also..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well the coaching standard to beat was set last year. This new regime must win more than 4 games and have at least 6 ProBowlers. That's what Chud and company managed. If we can't improve on that then what does it say about the overhaul?
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
Sorry but our last staff turned 2 ProBowlers into 6. Granted the win column didn't improve but in my mind the coaching was better.
I just don't see how anyone can look at our roster last year and see how any coach could have gotten enough wins to matter. What we did get was better individual performances. Guys that were borderline PB players got over that hump. That's coaching. The win loss thing, over rated with the QB/RB play we had last year.
Again, I'm behind Pettine. Chud's gone. Nothing can be done about that. But Pettine needs to continue what Chud started. We can not go backwards. And two more wins isn't forward especially if they're lucked into. Much like the ones we were lucked out of last season.
To repeat what I said earlier. I just want the coaches and FO to shut up and get to work. I'll listen when you've actually done something. Until then it's lip service about 'how tough you'll be', or whatever other off season coach speak crap you're offering. I've heard it for 15 years. Go tell it to the team, I find it somewhat insulting.
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jc Numbers from Kyle Shanahan's offenses http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/77807/numbers-from-kyle-shanahans-offensesKyle Shanahan has been an offensive coordinator for six years, which allows for the ability to draw some conclusions. Shanahan's apple dropped close to the tree, as he runs offenses much like his father, Mike. He also has worked in two situations in which the head coach had great input in game plans and play-calling: for Gary Kubiak in Houston and for Mike Shanahan in Washington. The case could be made that this experience with the Browns will be the first time Kyle Shanahan has true and complete say in the offense. What do his previous numbers show? Josh Gordon should be pleased. Shanahan found a way to use his lead receiver a lot and get him plenty of yards. Three No. 1 receivers had at least 1,300 yards, a fourth had 1,100 and a fifth just missed 1,000. Shanahan's top receivers averaged 1,197.5 yards per season, the second wideout 662.3. Which means the second receiver had just more than half the average amount of yards as the top receiver (55 percent). Shanahan finds his No. 1 guy, and uses him. This may, as ESPN.com's Matt Williamson pointed out, actually help Greg Little keep a job with the Browns. Shanahan also ran the ball fairly well, though not as well as he had his teams throw it. The lowest per-game rushing total for a season was 92 yards, the best 169. His running game ranked as high as first in the league to as low as 30th, twice. Most interesting is that the offense did not score a lot of points, despite the yards. The most points Shanahan's offense averaged was 27 in Robert Griffin III's rookie season, and it averaged 22.05 points over six seasons, 17th in the league. Here are the numbers, averaged over six seasons (two in Houston, four in Washington): Total offense -- 365.1 yards Total offense rank - 9.2 Team rushing -- 117.4 Team rushing rank -- 17.3 Team passing -- 247.7 Team passing rank -- 10.5 Team scoring -- 22.1 Team scoring rank -- 17.5 Individual rushing leader -- 998 yards Individual passing leader -- 3457.3 yards Individual passing TDs -- 18.3 Individual passing INTs -- 12.8 Individual receiving leader -- 1,197.5 Second WR yards -- 662.3
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
Two things, Mr. Sunshine:
1. Winning more games than they lose would not translate into 6 wins. That would be 6 and 10 and if my math is right, 10 is larger than 6. However, winning 9 games would equate to winning more games than they lose. Pretty heady stuff, huh?
2. You really value having more Pro Bowlers over wins?  Or, are just setting the table to complain again next year?
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so in your book, going from 5-11, to 4-12, to 6-10 is significant improvement?
browns fans....man, we have been abused far too long.
he's saying, we could've lucked up and won 2 more games and got to 6-10. but thats not improvement. but if we get 6-10, and zero pro bowlers, did we improve? or did we benefit from a couple lucky bounces?
neither is competing for the playoffs. but TYPICALLY, the team with the more pro bowlers/all-pros are the teams competing or IN the playoffs.
Last edited by Swish; 02/05/14 07:20 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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How did you get that out of what I said? Seriously?
Wait, never mind. I really don't want to get into w/you again. Let's just say I am a moron and be done w/it.
See ya'.
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Legend
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“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
Two things, Mr. Sunshine:
1. Winning more games than they lose would not translate into 6 wins. That would be 6 and 10 and if my math is right, 10 is larger than 6. However, winning 9 games would equate to winning more games than they lose. Pretty heady stuff, huh?
2. You really value having more Pro Bowlers over wins? Or, are just setting the table to complain again next year?
This will be my only response to you as I'm not going to get drawn into your trap of talking down to everyone Vers. Sorry.
Yes I understand math, but I don't see this team winning more games than it loses next year. If we don't win 9 games then what? Another coaching change? All coaches can do is work with the talent they have and improve thè performance of those players that actually have the ability to improve. No one was going to make Weeden or Cambell more than they were. And no one was going to give McG his knees back.
Do you feel that Pettine and his staff could have done more with the talent we had last year? If so explain to me how? By saying "we're tough now". "We play with bloody noses."?
What I want is for this team to show improvement. Much like I felt it did last year. If we only win 6 games but continue to show player growth I'm okay with that. Will you be? Mr Sunshine. Man you're a condescending $&@%.
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so in your book, going from 5-11, to 4-12, to 6-10 is significant improvement?
browns fans....man, we have been abused far too long.
he's saying, we could've lucked up and won 2 more games and got to 6-10. but thats not improvement. but if we get 6-10, and zero pro bowlers, did we improve? or did we benefit from a couple lucky bounces?
neither is competing for the playoffs. but TYPICALLY, the team with the more pro bowlers/all-pros are the teams competing or IN the playoffs.
Thanks for not only being able to read but to comprehend what you're reading. It's a lost art around here sometimes. 
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well i dunno...Vers got me calling him a moron out of that so...i dunno if i did an adequate job or not.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I may be condescending, but wasn't it you who said: Quote:
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
in response to this:
Quote:
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
LOL man............are you telling me you weren't being condescending? I was giving you a taste of your own medicine. I'm just better at it than you. How is that for condescending?
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Do you feel that Pettine and his staff could have done more with the talent we had last year?
I have no idea if they could have done more or less. I haven't seen what they can do yet. Then again, neither have you.
This is what I do know:
---it would be hard to be any worse than last year's group. We had 6 Pro Bowlers [that you just love to point to] and won 4 games. We also lost more games w/that coaching staff than we did under Passive Pat and this year's roster had more talent. Seriously, how is that possible?
---The new guys have not won or lost anything yet and I--and some others---are willing to give them a chance before we claim them success or failures. So excuse the hell out of me if I don't jump aboard your negativity train.
--Wins are more important than Pro Bowlers and I can't believe that is even up for debate. 
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Quote:
Brian Angelichio
7 years of coaching TE worked with:
Nate Byham (5 year)
Dallas Clark (1 year)
Luke Stocker (1 year)
Dorin Dicerson (4 years)
DC Jefferson (1 year)
Chuck Driesbach
2nd year in the NFL, but has 34 years of college exp. including working as DC of Rice and Ole Miss.
Jeff Hafley
3 years working in the NFL. 5 Years working in D1. Coached:
Revis (2 years)
Kennard Cox (2 years)
Logan Ryan (1 year)
Marcus Cooper (1 year)
Note: Despite having DR and Goldson they only finished 11th in the NFL in pass defense per Football Outsiders.
Those are our coaches and experience. One thing that was interesting was the amount of them that were from Rutgers and Pitt within the same time period (Angelichio, Babich, Hafley). So it does look like we have a young coaching staff with not that much NFL experience.
Screw NFL experience. You can coach or you can't. They keep getting hired, so I assume they impress someone. I would think a total boob would at some point flame out.
Plus, the the way the NFL has adopted College ball, maybe heavy college experience is the way to go.....especially with a young team.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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My concern is the lack of pro ball experience. College and the pros are vastly different.
That did concern me as well until I thought it over and came to the conclusion that the fundamentals are the same in both college and the pros. That is a lot of what has been lacking on this team, good fundamentals (among other things).
So I'm not as concerned with pro coaching experience as I am, as 'tabber said, that these coaches are good teachers. Other than the HC and the three OC's who call plays on game days, everyone else on the staff has the primary job of being a teacher.
I've not been at such a loss in all my years as a Browns fan. This year I'm reduced to merely stand by and see what happens. If this staff can work together and teach our young players something good can come of it.
#gmstrong
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I agree. Either you can teach or you can't, and the NFL is adopting the COLLEGE game more and more. I preached that 4-5 years ago. We may be near the point all you want are college coaches.
The NFL doesn't, and never had a lock on all good coaches.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I agree. Most innovative philosophies work from the college up on offense and defense. I feel like college coaches get a bad wrap for what they do. They don't have the time and resources to coach these players up like they do in the Pros and in return we don't see near as good of technical abilities at the college ranks, but what they do with their time is still very impressive.
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I've seen coaches at all levels and I think most people misunderstand some things. The best teachers are the high school coaches. The best recruiters are college coaches. The best PR guys and managers are NFL coaches. I don't have a ton of respect for professional coaches in regards to teaching. I think they are pretty lame at it. It's hard to see in football, but let's look at basketball a minute, shall we? Ever listen into the miked huddles in the NBA? I hear things like: --"we gotta rebound..." --"we need to get back on defense..." --"we need to pick up our intensity..." --"we gotta score the basketball........" Brilliance! Sheer brilliance!!!  Who the heck doesn't know that you have to rebound, transition back on defense, play w/intensity, and score points? A good high school coach tells them HOW to do it. Ever wonder why most of the greatest coaches in all sports are guys that were never star players? It's because they didn't have elite talent and had to study the game. That translates into better coaching. Again, I have no idea if this staff will be good or not. I am simply willing to give them a shot and wonder how much less effective they can be than the last several staffs that were in Cleveland?
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Quote:
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I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
Maybe you missed this part of what I wrote: I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
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I responded to that in the banter between Vers and I. I too want to see this team win more than we lose. We all do or we wouldn't be here. I'm just burned out on the entire process of getting there. Despite what you may think I'm not down on Pettine. I just don't want to hear anything from him or anyone else about their plan, or their culture change, or their toughness. I'm burned out. Go do it then I'll be all ears. I'll listen to every press conference. Until then it's just another talking head using rah rah coach talk to try to sell themselves to me. I'm not interested in the commercial I want to see the product. So yes. Maybe I am on the more pessimistic side. Not for feeling that these guys can't do it. I'm just not wanting to invest that emotional energy towards them until they get it done. Or are fired and we hear the next group say the same things. Sadly if that time comes I'll be just as unimpressed and unenthusiastic then too. Dear God I hope these guys get it done. Please. Enough is enough. 
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---The new guys have not won or lost anything yet and I--and some others---are willing to give them a chance before we claim them success or failures. So excuse the hell out of me if I don't jump aboard your negativity train.
Well I would say, "giving them a chance" is a little skewed, as we don't really have a choice in the matter...
And claiming them a success or failure is also pointless, and a little iffy, what do we define as a success? People said Chud was awesome after his first preseason game.
If they come in and win 6 games, are they failures? or is it more than that? How long does it take?
He'll Jim Schwartz got the Lions to 10 wins and the playoffs, and got fired a few years later.. Being a HC in the NFL sucks...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I responded to that in the banter between Vers and I.
Man, don't lie.
Here is where you responded to anarchy:
Quote:
Quote:
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Well the coaching standard to beat was set last year. This new regime must win more than 4 games and have at least 6 ProBowlers. That's what Chud and company managed. If we can't improve on that then what does it say about the overhaul?
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
I actually responded to that post. I pointed out that anarchy said that he wanted more wins than losses and that wins were more important than having Pro Bowlers. Don't try and change the facts.
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All Pro
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I just don't want to hear anything from him or anyone else about their plan, or their culture change, or their toughness. I'm burned out. Go do it then I'll be all ears. I'll listen to every press conference. Until then it's just another talking head using rah rah coach talk to try to sell themselves to me.
I hear ya bro, but he did actually say there wasn't much he could say to change peoples minds and he wasn't trying to win the press conference(or close to that) in his PC. I don't know what else he is supposed to say.
I like the look of the staff but remain skeptical, my FO thoughts will be put on hold until after FA and the draft.
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Quote:
Quote:
I responded to that in the banter between Vers and I.
Man, don't lie.
Here is where you responded to anarchy:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well the coaching standard to beat was set last year. This new regime must win more than 4 games and have at least 6 ProBowlers. That's what Chud and company managed. If we can't improve on that then what does it say about the overhaul?
I don't care if there are no Pro Bowlers on the team. I want to see the team winning more games than they lose.
So if we get 6 wins but only 2 ProBowlers that's better coaching?
I actually responded to that post. I pointed out that anarchy said that he wanted more wins than losses and that wins were more important than having Pro Bowlers. Don't try and change the facts.
Christ Vers you're quicker to snap on some one than my ex wife.
I said I responded to that subject in my response to you.
I wrote.. "Yes I understand math, but I don't see this team winning more games than it loses next year."
I thought that may have covered my thoughts on the subject but I guess in the future I'll have to disect every word of every post and make sure I respond in detail to each.
As to the wanting more ProBowlers than wins, no. I want wins. But those come with coaching players up from average to ProBowl status. More importantly the wins will come with real QB play. Whoever is the coach when that happens will reap the rewards.
Anything else I "lied" about? Geez. Please stop trying to turn everything I say into some sort of personal attack on you. I lived with that for 11 years and divorced it. I like your point of view on football matters but you're awfully sensitive and seem to really take things personally. It's growing tiresome.
I've never ever in all my years here, old board or new, had an issue with any poster in this board. Yet it's nearly unavoidable with you. I'm not out to talk down to you. Or anyone else. I'm here to say my piece. Talk a little football. Escape a little. Don't make it I unenjoyable for me.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Christ Vers you're quicker to snap on some one than my ex wife.
I said I responded to that subject in my response to you.
I see.
I apologize for that.
As to the rest, why is it so wrong for me to question you when a guy clearly said that he wants more wins than losses and you come back w/6 wins?
Don't answer, man. I'll leave you alone.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,884
Hall of Famer
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I'm willing to talk Vers. I just hate it when people act as though everything I say is a personal attack. For real. 11 years.
You're right. I said six. My point was what if we don't win more than we lose? What if we win six but can really see a decline in growth in the talent?
What will the response be? Was it coaching? Players?
I know I've touted the 6 ProBowlers thing but can the coaching truly be dismissed last year? In a year like it was with all things considered was it really about the win loss record?
I asked a few other questions in one of my responses to you that you didn't respond to. They're my concerns. Legit concerns. What's your response to them?
Pick and choose what you want to respond to. I've rambled on.
Again no attack man. Just trying to discuss. Cool?
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
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Yeah, it's cool, my man.
And I feel bad that I upset you and reminded you of your ex-wife.
All BS aside..............I'm sorry.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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While wins and losses I don't think are why Chud got fired, I think it's part of it, sorta..
How many games SHOULD we have won last year even with the crap QB play we had?
I'd say the 2nd Cincy game, possibly the first Pitt game, KC, Detroit, NE, Chi, NYJ.. And that's not counting the totally winnable Mia and BMore games...
Youre not ganna win them all, but thats at least 9 wins and a WC or That's 10 wins and a division title... And people can blame personell, the players, but at times it just seemed like we weren't prepared for the second half or late in the game... And that falls on the coaching staff...
When you're out of the playoffs, I expect pro athletes play to drop a bit, obviously, but look at Jax, they were 0-8 and could of easily lost out, and ended up winning as many as we did, when we were 3-2 and 4-5..
4-5 to 4-12.. Depressing...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
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Yeah.........the win total was depressing, but what was worse was that the team did not improve during the course of the season. Instead, they digressed.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Instead, they digressed.
I think you mean regressed. Which they did.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Thank you for correcting me.
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