Quote: You can often use stats to make any point. Pluto made his. Someone else could say that the last 10 Super Bowls have all had at least 1 starting QB drafted in the first round, and most of those Super Bowls had a starting QB drafted in the top 2 picks overall.
Another approach would be to look at the Non-QBs drafted in the top 10 picks of those 5 drafts. People make it out to be like you're taking a 50/50 at best shot on a franchise QB or a guaranteed all-pro/HOF type player at another position which just simply isn't the case. Darren McFadden, Glenn Dorsey, Vernon Gholston, Sedrick Ellis, Derrick Harvey, Keith Rivers, Jason Smith, Tyson Jackson, Aaron Curry, Andre Smith, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Eugene Monroe Should I go on? All were picked in the top 10 of the 2008 and 2009 drafts alone.
I'm glad he pointed out that the earliest picks often go to the worst teams/worst franchises because of the draft order.
I don't think it matters about the other positions since we're talking about where the QBs were taken.
Now you have an inkling why I'd be willing to trade down out of the Top 10 - even out of the first round completely.
I remember watching that live. I was rooting for the Pats. Hilarious.
Just to be clear, I wasn't defending Sanchez per se...
Quote: There is definitely something to be said for *whiffing* on a QB and then being more or less stuck with them. They didn't pay that much to move up in terms of draft picks but there was an enormous financial investment.
The part about Sanchez and Tebow was more of a tangent than anything and probably didn't belong in this thread. I just find the inconsistency to be fascinating.
I remember watching that live. I was rooting for the Pats. Hilarious.
Just to be clear, I wasn't defending Sanchez per se...
Well, I don't think I can ever be a Patriots fan. I'm not really a fan of either team although the Jets training camp is just a half hour down the road at SUNY Cortland.
Quote: There is definitely something to be said for *whiffing* on a QB and then being more or less stuck with them. They didn't pay that much to move up in terms of draft picks but there was an enormous financial investment.
I still don't think that the Browns are intending to move up in the draft. I think that they're honestly intrigued by Hoyer. Hoyer gets the ball out quickly. That's something that Browns QBs haven't been able to say in... like... forever.
Quote: Perhaps, but you do realize that Hoyer was Lombardi's choice and that Lombardi is gone, right?
Farmer has liked guys like Brady Quinn, Matt Cassell, Kyle Orton, and Tyler Thigpen. Pretty impressive list, eh?
We are doomed!!! Thanks Vers for giving hope! LOL
Let's hope those selections were early in his career and matured since.
This draft is going to be very interested. It has loads of talent at several positions.
I know I can't judge QB's. It seems like every draft the QB's I like turn into Sanchez, others, superstars, with one exception. I thought RG iii would struggle and take a few years before he shines...Tannhill would be another Blain Gabert. I would have passed on Newton. I'm excluding Luck and Bradford since Browns had no chance.
Quote: I would love to give you credit, but that mean I have to admit you were right!! LOL!
On the other hand...........I was pushing for us to draft Jimmy Clausen in the second round a few years ago.
I didn't want anything to do with either Sanchez or Clausen.
Of course, I did want Weeden to become something he couldn't ...... so there's that .....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Perhaps, but you do realize that Hoyer was Lombardi's choice and that Lombardi is gone, right?
Farmer has liked guys like Brady Quinn, Matt Cassell, Kyle Orton, and Tyler Thigpen. Pretty impressive list, eh?
We all know that it is all but impossible to find a starting QB in free agency though. Sure it has happened a time or 2 ..... most famously, Drew Brees, but other examples of finding free agent starting QBs in the past decade are few and far between. Guys like Warner, for example, and actually Brees as well, were reclamation projects to an extent. (or injury risks) Denver signed Peyton Manning, and he was a huge risk coming off of what .... 4 neck surgeries?
IIRC, Brett Favre was a free agent at one point as well, and he had a good year after leaving Green Bay, but he was not the same guy he was earlier in his career in the other couple of seasons.
We all know that QBs are damn hard to find, and almost impossible to find in free agency. I am not going to blast an executive because he couldn't find a QB on the open market.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I hear/read a lot of people wanting Watkins at #4. He would be WR2 on our team and you just don't draft a WR2 with the #4 pick in the draft.
I think the whole notion of a WR 1 and a WR 2 is overblown... what is wrong with having WRs 1a and 1b?
If, if, if we are picking at #4 and we aren't sold on whatever QB is available there.. and nobody else really screams top 5 pick to you and nobody is willing to give you adequate compensation for the pick, then what do you do? In my opinion, you draft the best playmaker, the biggest potential difference maker.. and if that happens to be a WR, so be it. It's not like we are tremendously deep at the WR position.
If we are going to roll with Hoyer next year and maybe a later pick QB behind him with Campbell or whatever the rest of the QB depth chart looks like... I'd rather he have Gordon/Watkins than Gordon/whatever we have now....
At #4 you have to find a playmaker who can change games....
Quote: I hear/read a lot of people wanting Watkins at #4. He would be WR2 on our team and you just don't draft a WR2 with the #4 pick in the draft.
I think the whole notion of a WR 1 and a WR 2 is overblown... what is wrong with having WRs 1a and 1b?
If, if, if we are picking at #4 and we aren't sold on whatever QB is available there.. and nobody else really screams top 5 pick to you and nobody is willing to give you adequate compensation for the pick, then what do you do? In my opinion, you draft the best playmaker, the biggest potential difference maker.. and if that happens to be a WR, so be it. It's not like we are tremendously deep at the WR position.
If we are going to roll with Hoyer next year and maybe a later pick QB behind him with Campbell or whatever the rest of the QB depth chart looks like... I'd rather he have Gordon/Watkins than Gordon/whatever we have now....
At #4 you have to find a playmaker who can change games....
DC, it is not as simple as you described. Drafting Watkins is a duplicate of Gordon. It is like saying let's draft a Joe Thomas type and play him at RG. You want a complementary receiver giving additional options to the offensive. You want a Little type receiver tall, bulk, YAC, and over the middle/back of the end-zone type receiver.
Look at the makeup now Gordon/Little/Benjamin. Add Cameron to the mix and pass catching RB. You have a nice mix of spreed/brawn/finesse receivers. This allows your offense to attack a defense with multiple weapons. No one would be talking receiver if Little can catch the ball.
gordon/little/benji is a mix of a least 4 balls being dropped every game.
we've already gone 2 seasons with that type of lineup, and it hasn't exactly worked out. the only player showing consistently happens to be the 2nd best WR in the league. the others? one got reduced to gimmick plays and punt/KO return, the lost his starting job to a WR who also had a bad case of the dropsies.
we need another WR. if we don't take a QB a 4, then we should definitely consider taking watkins at 4 if he's available . thats Jones/White/gonzalez from the falcons type level of production.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Quote: gordon/little/benji is a mix of a least 4 balls being dropped every game.
we've already gone 2 seasons with that type of lineup, and it hasn't exactly worked out. the only player showing consistently happens to be the 2nd best WR in the league. the others? one got reduced to gimmick plays and punt/KO return, the lost his starting job to a WR who also had a bad case of the dropsies.
we need another WR. if we don't take a QB a 4, then we should definitely consider taking watkins at 4 if he's available . thats Jones/White/gonzalez from the falcons type level of production.
Please Swish! I didn't say DON'T draft a WR. I said we don't need Watkins at #4. Receivers like Little and Benjamin, especially in this years draft, can be drafted second day.
People amaze me how the rate success. If players don't work, it must be the scheme that is the failure!
i think where we disagree is where in the draft to get one.
i guess word on the street is this draft is deep at WR? but we have a chance a #4 if our QB is gone, to draft one NASTY WR. that guy would almost have instant credibility on the field. which means with Cameron and Watkins out there every snap, no more doubling Gordon. have bess/cooper TRULY working the slot, and Hoyer would have some SICK weapons.
i don't rate success on the scheme with WR. i rate WR on catching the damn ball. something Little has proven he can't do on a consistent basis.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Swish, I don't want to turn this thread into receivers. I should not have answered DC. If you wish, start another thread I'll be happy to add my 2 cents!
Bess was our biggest problem when it came to drops last year. He dropped more balls than Gordon. Little, or Benjamin.
I have yet to see Benjamin figure out how to use his speed effectively at the WR spot. He's a small receiver, and he has to learn how to get past bump cover. He also is an injury risk given his slight frame and small size.
I am hopeful that we sign a solid #2 receiver, and bump Little and Benjamin down the depth chart.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
And Pluto is probably one of the better ones...I agree its a dumb synopsis. How many had a top tier LT? How many have a top 5 Defense. Cause Kapernick, Wilson and Flacco did.
I mean what is he trying to say. If we take a better equipped QB in the top 10 we are screwing ourselves...
I guess we should have stuck to Weeden and BQ
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: Bess was our biggest problem when it came to drops last year. He dropped more balls than Gordon. Little, or Benjamin.
I have yet to see Benjamin figure out how to use his speed effectively at the WR spot. He's a small receiver, and he has to learn how to get past bump cover. He also is an injury risk given his slight frame and small size.
I am hopeful that we sign a solid #2 receiver, and bump Little and Benjamin down the depth chart.
Agree 100% about Travis. Speed doesn't matter if you're so small and lacking of physical toughness when being bumped up to five yards ruins your route and speed and etc and lets a corner just shadow you. He's ran outta balance and, although not as WR but still evidence - has fair caught a lot of balls he could have likely made some yards from. Tells me he fears ANY type of contact.
But curious YTown - you said sign a solid #2 and bump Travis and Greg to lower end of the depth chart (which I'd LOVE to see happen) - what ya think we should do with Bess then?
Quote: Bess was our biggest problem when it came to drops last year. He dropped more balls than Gordon. Little, or Benjamin.
I have yet to see Benjamin figure out how to use his speed effectively at the WR spot. He's a small receiver, and he has to learn how to get past bump cover. He also is an injury risk given his slight frame and small size.
I am hopeful that we sign a solid #2 receiver, and bump Little and Benjamin down the depth chart.
Agree 100% about Travis. Speed doesn't matter if you're so small and lacking of physical toughness when being bumped up to five yards ruins your route and speed and etc and lets a corner just shadow you. He's ran outta balance and, although not as WR but still evidence - has fair caught a lot of balls he could have likely made some yards from. Tells me he fears ANY type of contact.
But curious YTown - you said sign a solid #2 and bump Travis and Greg to lower end of the depth chart (which I'd LOVE to see happen) - what ya think we should do with Bess then?
Well ..... we could either just cut him and try to void his contract, (and voiding his deal is likely) or keep him and let him work his way up the depth chart, only getting what he earns with us.
With the cap space we have, we aren't married to any player. We can make any internal moves we feel need made.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
And Pluto is probably one of the better ones...I agree its a dumb synopsis. How many had a top tier LT? How many have a top 5 Defense. Cause Kapernick, Wilson and Flacco did.
I mean what is he trying to say. If we take a better equipped QB in the top 10 we are screwing ourselves...
I guess we should have stuck to Weeden and BQ
Thanks Tab! I am using a piece of your post to put this discussion back on topic!
Isn't this the debate? Do you invest getting a QB or build the pieces around the QB and have a top rank defense?
I do not mean don't get a good QB, or you can turn any QB into a starter. My argument, particularly this draft, why draft someone in first round who will not start?
If your belief is draft one of the three proclaimed best QB and sit them behind Hoyer for a year, how can you say this is a worthy pick? If your argument is Manziel, Bridgewater, or Bortles can start this season, now we have a first round round person who can contribute.
There are numerous success and failures drafting QB first, second, and third rounds. We are not looking at only Wilson and Kaepernick. Don't forget players such as Dalton, Foles, and Cousins. There were strong arguments for and against these guys too.
Sometimes I simply feel to much fools gold is given these guys. We say you can't make mistakes drafting players in first three rounds. Then turn around saying you must draft a QB in the first until we get a franchise QB. Either way you screw the team if you miss on the first pick. Haven't we learned from the myriad of past failures. It is not only Browns look at Jacksonville.
Why is it wrong to think you can't succeed not having a first round QB? At least with Hoyer we are not in such dire straights.
I disagree with this from the start. Watkins is not the over-the-top, break the defense, kind of guy that Gordon is.. people assume that because Watkins has tremendous speed that that is his strength when it's not. Watkins is more of a possession type receiver who just happens to use his speed to break a lot of big plays.
Quote: You want a complementary receiver giving additional options to the offensive. You want a Little type receiver tall, bulk, YAC, and over the middle/back of the end-zone type receiver.
Why? I seriously think you are over-thinking this in an attempt to look good getting off the plane. Watkins is a 6'1", 210 lb guy with great speed and amazing hands who is a threat to break tackles and go the distance every time he touches the ball... We do not have that on this team. If there is no better option at LB or CB or some other position of need, I would not pass on Watkins because you have a preconceived notion of what a #2 WR is supposed to look like.
Nobody had ever heard of Wes Welker until year 3 of his career.. two big things changed that year, one is he now had Tom Brady throwing him the ball, the other is that he now had Randy Moss on the other side of the field... He had 112 catches for almost 1200 yards... Do you know what our non-RB receiving options 3-11 had last year combined? (this is Little, Bess, Barnidge, Cooper, Tyms, Gurley, Edwards, Benjamin, Gray) 116 catches for 1164 yards.... Damn near the same numbers that Welker put up by himself with a legit deep threat on the other side... (The Pats alleged #2 that year was Donte Stallworth, who put up about 700 yards)..
Quote: Look at the makeup now Gordon/Little/Benjamin. Add Cameron to the mix and pass catching RB. You have a nice mix of spreed/brawn/finesse receivers.
You have one pro-bowl WR and TE, then you have another guy who may or may not be healthy, runs poor routes, and drops passes.. and another guy who runs poor routes and drops passes, and a fictitious running back who we may or may not have on the roster next year... so out of the 5 primary pass catching options, you have 2 very good ones and 3 giant question marks.. and you are reluctant to draft a guy who almost immediately gives you that third option..
Quote: No one would be talking receiver if Little can catch the ball.
And nobody would be talking QB if Weeden could make a decision and hit the broad side of a barn.... fact is Little can't catch the ball and it's a big problem.. if a guy with amazing hands and world class speed just happens to be available when we draft and we aren't 100% sold on somebody else, then I don't see the problem.
With the not-so-new CBA, isn't it easier now to draft a guy like Watkins really high? If it's true that we're not going to draft a QB at 4 (I hope we do, but it's easy to imagine our guy not being there), then we should be able to take a guy that's going to benefit our team the most.
I think taking Watkins is acceptable if trade down options aren't good, and "our" QB is gone.
It's weird to me that folks who are against taking a WR that soon are ok with us taking a QB project (Manziel) or a QB overhaul (Bortles).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: DC, I apologize. I should have not have responded to your earlier post. I like to keep this about Quarterbacks.
If you start a new thread, I'd be happy to debate.
Wow, no problem.. I didn't even look at the title of the thread but I agree, we can begin the WR debate somewhere else at a different time.. I'm not all that pressed about it. I see a need for a guy like Watkins and you don't.. not much else to debate.
As for the thread, I don't believe the importance is changing... QBs who are lucky enough to fall into a situation where the team has a great defense and a very good running game will never be asked to do what a QB on a less well rounded team is asked to do.. Every team wants to be well rounded and good in all areas like Seattle, every team also wants a QB who can win games for them when he has to... Seattle seems to have both... bastards.
How can we say Rivers is a worthy Pick, Rodgers? By your definition you cannot.
I know we dont have a Favre on our team. But Brees wasn't getting it yet when the Chargers had the overall #1 pick and took Eli...turning into the #4 pick Rivers plus.
Yet Brees started and HE GOT IT that season prolonging Rivers era to start.
If our options were Weeden or Campbell - I think its a no Brainer whoever we take at #4 would start.
The fact is we have a QB who possibly (only cause of the short data rather than calling it a fact) Gets Its. Not in talent but in the fact that there is a lot of value in GETTING IT. How long do you go with a Hoyer? Well I'm sure the original plan was probably around 6-8 games with Brees which turned to 3 years.
You go as long as the QB earns it. Its never a Wasted pick. Cause some day the QB will take over and you got a gold mine trading away the Hoyer QB...you trade him to the NFC and get multiple picks for him.
Not many picking in the top 5 - top 10 have a QB who is getting it. Personally I think 100% for sure that if Hoyer stayed healthy and got 14 games - no way we are picking at #4. Hoyer might be a 3 game wonder...hey if so the kid drafted will start around game 5 or during the bye week. Possibly Hoyer won't get the new Playbook and won't start at all?
I don't get this if he don't start - it means he is not worthy.
The fact we don't see it more is cause there aren't many teams picking early that have a QB that gets it. Do we that is the question? If we do it doesn't mean the kid we took at 4 is not worthy. It means we aren't that DESPERATE to put a kid in there that don't have a lick of experience. Do you realize every rookie QB that has started will do so with a Dummied down Playbook? EVERY...if not they fall on their faces!
People start rookies cause it gives them the best chance to win. Them who have a QB who gets it and usually missed part of the season with injuries.
jmho - I just don't get this. So for the sake of some fans might think the pick isn't worthy you wish us to start the rookie with a dummied down version of the play book?
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: As for the thread, I don't believe the importance is changing... QBs who are lucky enough to fall into a situation where the team has a great defense and a very good running game will never be asked to do what a QB on a less well rounded team is asked to do.. Every team wants to be well rounded and good in all areas like Seattle, every team also wants a QB who can win games for them when he has to... Seattle seems to have both... bastards.
Is Wilson another Big Ben? By that, would Big Ben be as good as he shown if he played for a team like Jacksonville? I think Wilson is a good example. Given the right atmosphere he thrives, but if put on a team looking for an identity, he struggles.
Looking at this years draft does Manziel get this noticed if Wilson did not have success? You can also make this argument too. With Cleveland's defense much improved and addition of two pro bowl offensive play makers, does Johnny Manziel become an ideal candidate? Therefore, why not draft and make the starting QB.
Yes, Wilson has tools/weapons that make him look good, but he also doesn't hold onto the ball and stare down a guy for five seconds, throw inaccurate passes regardless of situation and make constant mental mistakes, etc.
Using your analogy if you will, do you think Weeden would lead Seattle to the superbowl if Wilson was replaced by him? I doubt it, even with the surrounding aspects (Wr's, good scheme, good running game) - Wilson going to show he can operate when the pocket collapses, when pressure is coming immediately and etc etc and decisions are needed to be made instantly and so forth. Weeden, IMO, would not.
So all I'm saying is... don't take all the credit away from Russel and make him seem like he's a nobody if he didn't have Seattle's various pluses. He'd still ball better than Weeden and Gabbert and etc. I don't think many people would argue with that either.
Quote: Yes, Wilson has tools/weapons that make him look good, but he also doesn't hold onto the ball and stare down a guy for five seconds, throw inaccurate passes regardless of situation and make constant mental mistakes, etc.
Using your analogy if you will, do you think Weeden would lead Seattle to the superbowl if Wilson was replaced by him? I doubt it, even with the surrounding aspects (Wr's, good scheme, good running game) - Wilson going to show he can operate when the pocket collapses, when pressure is coming immediately and etc etc and decisions are needed to be made instantly and so forth. Weeden, IMO, would not.
So all I'm saying is... don't take all the credit away from Russel and make him seem like he's a nobody if he didn't have Seattle's various pluses. He'd still ball better than Weeden and Gabbert and etc. I don't think many people would argue with that either.
I was more comparing Wilson to Big Ben not Weeden and Gabbert.
Let's change it up comparing Wilson to Bradford. Do you draft Wilson because he can carry the team adding pieces? Having the pieces around you makes it easier. The other thing going for Wilson is he played for 4 years in college. With his physically makeup, he needed the time developing within his limitations.
I'm not sponsoring these guys, but there is a lot to be said for kids playing all four years: Garoppolo and Logan Thomas. You also have Mettenberger and McCarron playing for high grade schools. Yes, they may not have the physical talent, but they are both smart and played for winners. McCarron proved he can win given a defense and offensive play makers. Does it translate to winning in the NFL? No more than it does for Bridgewater or Manziel.
Quote: I think Wilson is a good example. Given the right atmosphere he thrives, but if put on a team looking for an identity, he struggles.
As do 99.9% of rookies who go to bad teams, some teams are just able to build around it while many like Cleveland, Jacksonville, Oakland, never seem to find those other pieces...
The other thing people forget is that some teams have pieces in place already that are being held back by the QB play.. Look at the Colts, they had Marshall Faulk, they had Marvin Harrison, they had other good players when they drafted Peyton... I think that is where we are right now.. we are in prime position to find the QB, unfortunately there are no obvious Peyton Manning's out there and even if there was, we aren't in a position to draft him...
Obviously it helps a QB to walk into a good situation where the weight of the world isn't on his shoulders and he can grow and learn WHILE having success as a team.. that said, I think Wilson is an excellent QB on any team.
I know there are other factors, but what was Seattle's record in the two previous years before he arrived? Then, what was their record in his first two years w/the team?
The guy is underrated. You know why? Because he isn't big and doesn't have a huge gun...you know...those two traits Weeden had.
What Wilson does have is incredible intelligence and a huge desire to be the best. I like smart QBs. I like guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Manning, Luck, Big Ben, Brady, and Brees. They come in all sorts of sizes and all colors. Their arm strength varies.
That is why I like Teddy and to a lesser extent........Manziel. They have brains. They understand the game. They can read coverages. They make plays when things break down.
You can't underestimate the power of a smart qb in today's NFL. Meanwhile, most people overestimate the importance of a guy's arm strength and size.
Quote: I know there are other factors, but what was Seattle's record in the two previous years before he arrived? Then, what was their record in his first two years w/the team?
The guy is underrated. You know why? Because he isn't big and doesn't have a huge gun...you know...those two traits Weeden had.
What Wilson does have is incredible intelligence and a huge desire to be the best. I like smart QBs. I like guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Manning, Luck, Big Ben, Brady, and Brees. They come in all sorts of sizes and all colors. Their arm strength varies.
That is why I like Teddy and to a lesser extent........Manziel. They have brains. They understand the game. They can read coverages. They make plays when things break down.
You can't underestimate the power of a smart qb in today's NFL. Meanwhile, most people overestimate the importance of a guy's arm strength and size.
I agree that Wilson is underrated. The kid can play and I also agree it's about his football intelligence. To clarify it a bit though it's not just that he understands the game and can read coverages... it's that he can do all of that FAST. He processes information very quickly and THAT is a key attribute that many sometimes overlook. Sometimes it takes time for that to develop in a QB like with Brees. Players refer to it when they say "the game slowed down for me". Wilson already had it as a rookie though. Just a shame we missed out on him.
We are doomed!!! Thanks Vers for giving hope! LOL
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