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No one processes things faster and is smarter than Teddy.
I'd have no problem taking teddy at #4 or even trading up to get him if it don't cost too much. I've said that all along. I dont believe this nonsense about him not being able to gain weight. Let my momma cook for him and we get him to 220 easily. You can always fatten up a little and then put muscle weight on.
I just dont like the Manziel pick because he has a lot of bad habits for a QB and I stated all of them long before Casserly did. It just shows other folks besides me see them too.
Vers I think me and you are in close aggreement on teddy, seperated on manziel, and I am prob the only one who sees Jimmy as a potential first rounder on this board. I think if Jimmy came from a better school he would be hands down the #1 pick of this draft and it would not even be close.
It's ok to disagree with me =) I am on record though who I think the best qb in this draft is and in all the years i been posting I've never felt so strongly on a player. Time will tell.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Well, officials from the combine are tweeting that Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4" and 207 lbs... for those who were waiting for that information.
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Is it just me, or is that much lighter than everyone thought he would be?....I mean, RG3 is 215ish and he couldn't take the hits to stay on the field.
Manziel just over 200lbs.....Is this a big deal?
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I'm wondering just how snobbish are the NFL GMs so that Manziel will drop - he basically the same height as Brees (6 even to 5'11.75" ) and Brees fell to 1st pick of the 2nd round. Rodgers dropped, Wilson to the 3rd. Will Manziel be there at 26? If he is your guy...you take him at 4 maybe a little drop back to to 6 or 7 and take him???
I've said it all along Bridgewater is, was and always will be the overall #1 pick in this draft. Over 6'2" and 214 even though its more like 205 once the water weight is gone. That is one long pee...lol 
Bortles if he cements himself in interviews he is the kid that will move up - do the Jaguars take a chance on him like they did with Gabbert? Do they take Manziel to put people in the seats? Might as well just get Tebow if that's the case.
Never in the history of the NFL has a sub 6' QB prospect been taken in Top 10...heck maybe in the entire 1st round??? Not that is not a fact making an educated guess on top 10 n first round...possibly in the days before face masks???
jmho
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Well maybe they won't be as snobbish since the most recent anomaly just won a Super Bowl. Plus Manziel's hand size equates to him being able to hold on to the ball in the horrible December weather in Cleveland.
I was just surprised by the weight.....mainly because so many people (unless I'm thinking of someone else) thought, although being small in height, was somewhat stout in his weight. I always thought he was gonna be heavier than Bridgewater, that apparently is not the case in at least in this weigh in.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I mean, RG3 is 215ish and he couldn't take the hits to stay on the field.
To be fair, many guys bigger than RGIII have had knees blown out during games. I get what you're saying, but I don't think size/weight has as much to do with a knee injury as it/they do with everyday pounding.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Understand Memphis...actually probably in this thread pimping Manziel a bit - I've noted that he had very big hands which was more important than height...Also a fact if the QB gets one yard deeper than the norm he gain an entire Foot of height when it comes to getting the ball over the OL. Why DA n Weeden from under center had so many balls batted down and yet they were considered to have good to great height for a QB...they never dropped back far enough...and in Weeden's case every second he held onto the ball late he would hitch step closer n closer to the LOS.
JMHO - I'm just saying instead of thinking maybe we got to move up to 2 in order to get Manziel maybe the snobbery of the NFL will have him drop to us or we can also auction off our #4 for an excellent player to a spot where we still will get Manziel...as noted 2-3 slots.
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RG3 also doesn't know how or when to slide, step outta bound and so forth. He welcomes the hits it seems so RG3 is a bad example to use for comparison.
Maybe one day it'll click for him, there is no shame or harm in sliding... hopefully that day comes before his career ends lol
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Just for the record - RG3 was having probably the best rookie season maybe ever in the NFL until like 30 yards downfield he was caught from behind and the side by a 330 pound Ngata who was moving at incredible speed and side swiped the leg/knee - he was never the same after that. NOTE: I don't think there is a QB in the NFL that wouldn't have had a terrible physical injury from that hit.
Just would like to bring that to everyones attention. If I'm wrong please correct me.
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No, you're right, and that hit likely contributed to the season ending injury against Seattle because he rushed back to play Philly.
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I mean, RG3 is 215ish and he couldn't take the hits to stay on the field.
Yea I don't really care how much you weigh or how much you lift or what you eat, there isn't a whole lot you can do to strengthen and protect ligaments and tendons if the knee gets bent the wrong way or a 300 lb guy falls into it..
To be fair, many guys bigger than RGIII have had knees blown out during games. I get what you're saying, but I don't think size/weight has as much to do with a knee injury as it/they do with everyday pounding.
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Well, officials from the combine are tweeting that Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4" and 207 lbs... for those who were waiting for that information.
Manziel also had the biggest hands of the three top QBs.
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Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4"
This is the NFL QB equivalent of Peter Dinklage.
He's somewhere between Doug Flutie and Drew Brees.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4"
This is the NFL QB equivalent of Peter Dinklage.
He's somewhere between Doug Flutie and Drew Brees.
and 1 1/8" taller than Russell Wilson measured at the combine.
What's the point?
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Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4"
This is the NFL QB equivalent of Peter Dinklage.
He's somewhere between Doug Flutie and Drew Brees.
I don't know if this means anything but Russell Wilson is listed as 5'11", 206 lbs and he just won a Superbowl. FWIW
#GMSTRONG
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Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4"
This is the NFL QB equivalent of Peter Dinklage.
He's somewhere between Doug Flutie and Drew Brees.
and 1 1/8" taller than Russell Wilson measured at the combine.
What's the point?
The Midget Revolution has begun?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Verne Troyer is available.
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I'm wondering just how snobbish are the NFL GMs so that Manziel will drop - he basically the same height as Brees (6 even to 5'11.75" ) and Brees fell to 1st pick of the 2nd round. Rodgers dropped, Wilson to the 3rd. Will Manziel be there at 26? If he is your guy...you take him at 4 maybe a little drop back to to 6 or 7 and take him???
I've said it all along Bridgewater is, was and always will be the overall #1 pick in this draft. Over 6'2" and 214 even though its more like 205 once the water weight is gone. That is one long pee...
jmho
If Manziel or Bridgewater is your guy you better trade up to the 1st or 2nd spot. The Texans will take one or the other. And that other guy isn't going to just drop in our lap. Other's will trade up to grab him first. Not that I think that's what we should do. But if he's your guy....better trade up.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Measurements are a factor to be considered. But in the end analysis it is the results on the field of play.
Brees can play. So can Wilson. One can not deny the results of Manziel and Bridgewater on the field.
It is a matter of who fits with what you want to do.
Bridgewater in my mind can fit in any system. Manziel I believe you adapt around his game.
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Verne Troyer is available.
we've already tried drafting an old QB who spent the first part of his adult life in a different profession. didn't work out too well.
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I'd dispute the "results" of Manziel's on-field work, but we'd end up just disagreeing.
I'll throw in another concern with Manziel (the height really isn't much of a problem for me, in fact it's more than I thought) and it has to do with your last sentence: that any team would HAVE TO adapt to his "style". That sounds nice in theory, but do you know what that means? That's like asking the other 20+ guys on Offense to learn something new WITHIN the new play book. Imho, the consequence of it is that it de-values other positions/players. What if he gets injured? It's back to "normal" playbook for all other players. Great.
It also effectively de-values Joe Thomas, ever thought of that? Why have an AllPro LT around to form a pocket, if pocket play isn't his game?
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Manziel is officially 5' 11 3/4"
This is the NFL QB equivalent of Peter Dinklage.
He's somewhere between Doug Flutie and Drew Brees.
and 1 1/8" taller than Russell Wilson measured at the combine.
What's the point?
And at 5'7" Spud Webb once won the NBA slam dunk contest and at 5'9", 230 lbs, Sam Mills was a very good ILB in the NFL... just because something happens occasionally, doesn't mean you can just ignore the generally accepted rules and the laws of probability.
His height should not be the end-all, be-all factor but it has to be considered. To take the approach that, "Oh well, a short QB won the super bowl, therefore height shall never be considered when making a QB selection again."... well that's just foolishness.
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well, our Tall QB's on this team haven't been exactly lighting it up on our teams, either. i think what wilson and brees proved that no matter your height, if you can ball, you can ball.
height hasn't stopped weeden from getting balls batted down like its volleyball practice.
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I'd dispute the "results" of Manziel's on-field work, but we'd end up just disagreeing.
I'll throw in another concern with Manziel (the height really isn't much of a problem for me, in fact it's more than I thought) and it has to do with your last sentence: that any team would HAVE TO adapt to his "style". That sounds nice in theory, but do you know what that means? That's like asking the other 20+ guys on Offense to learn something new
New? Yeah like playing professional football instead of pee wee quality ball that we usually get year in and year out.
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WITHIN the new play book. Imho, the consequence of it is that it de-values other positions/players. What if he gets injured? It's back to "normal" playbook for all other players. Great.
It also effectively de-values Joe Thomas, ever thought of that? Why have an AllPro LT around to form a pocket, if pocket play isn't his game?
No it doesn't. I puts more value on run blocking. And QB protection. If JT or any other Olineman can't step up and adapt to a new style or playbook well then, they don't belong in the NFL. It's not like a standard offensive playbook has ever been set here to begin with.
I'm not a huge Johnny football fan and I'm not here to pimp him up. But I can see him making a splash in the NFL without major adjustments to the playbook.
Also if we do draft a QB. They probably won't start right away anyways. Hoyer will.
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height hasn't stopped weeden from getting balls batted down like its volleyball practice.
this one over and over.
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It also effectively de-values Joe Thomas, ever thought of that? Why have an AllPro LT around to form a pocket, if pocket play isn't [Manziel's] game?
I know you are responding to a poster who said that we will have to change our gameplan to fit Manziel's style, but I think that is poster is right and wrong. Manziel will have to change his style to fit the NFL. He won't be able to just tuck and run when he doesn't see what he likes or doesn't look at all. But there will also be more designed runs, rollouts, play action, etc.
Manziel has to show in his workouts and interviews that he has improved inside the pocket. If he doesn't do that I don't think he is worth drafting at pick four.
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well, our Tall QB's on this team haven't been exactly lighting it up on our teams, either. i think what wilson and brees proved that no matter your height, if you can ball, you can ball.
height hasn't stopped weeden from getting balls batted down like its volleyball practice.
I don't disagree with any of that...
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well, our Tall QB's on this team haven't been exactly lighting it up on our teams, either. i think what wilson and brees proved that no matter your height, if you can ball, you can ball.
We've tried basically everything besides a mobile guy (although some would argue that Garcia and McCoy were mobile) and a black guy. If only there were a mobile black guy available. . .
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Sure, and that's part of my point too...name me the last QB that had any sustained success while relying on running? Vick? Kaep? RG3?
If anything Wilson taught NFL scouts is that you need to be/have a throw first QB, a QB that CAN run, but only as last resort. With the 3 guys named above, their skill of running has or is becoming their curse to play and develop the way it should be. Thats what Wilson understood. He took his lumps to learn it the right way instead of taking the short cuts for short term success or a better play/drive here and there.
That's why I laugh when Manziel gets compared to Wilson. We're talking about two different styles here. Big Ben is closer to Wilson than Manziel. Heck, even Bortles and Bridgewater are closer imho.
Of all 3 QBs, Manziel is actually the quickest deciding to run around, it ain't even close. With that said, he's actually the furthest away from being Wilson. He's MUCH closer to Vick, Kaep and RG3....without their arm strength to boot.
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name me the last QB that had any sustained success while relying on running? Vick? Kaep? RG3?
It's hard to say anybody has had sustained success when they've only been in the league for 2 or 3 years..
Cam Newton has done ok.
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height hasn't stopped weeden from getting balls batted down like its volleyball practice.
this one over and over.
And ignored over and over. 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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If anything Wilson taught NFL scouts is that you need to be/have a throw first QB, a QB that CAN run, but only as last resort.
What it should teach them is that there is still value in a qb who performed well in a traditional offense in college (no wing-t or triple option jokes, please)
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Just for the record - RG3 was having probably the best rookie season maybe ever in the NFL until like 30 yards downfield he was caught from behind and the side by a 330 pound Ngata who was moving at incredible speed and side swiped the leg/knee - he was never the same after that. NOTE: I don't think there is a QB in the NFL that wouldn't have had a terrible physical injury from that hit.
Just would like to bring that to everyones attention. If I'm wrong please correct me.
That is exactly what I saw.
Its called life in the AFC North, whether you are in it, or the schedule has you playing it.
RGIII, Gronk, Finley, etc....
Goin in hard at the knees.
Go back and watch some steelroid and Raider games from the 70's. Things have actually gotten better. The best way to stop a gifted, skill based player is simply to take him out. Its a shame.
I think every single poster on this board will be very surprised if either Teddy or Manziel is available at #4. We can talk, but reality is that they are both gone. Seems like we are 1-2 draft picks every year from getting that great player. When we drafted #1 Couch and Brown are the best available -- To be a Browns fan. The only time we ever got "that guy" was when there was a reported, rumored, fix and it came under a sudden shift in the supplemental draft.
The draft isn't until May.
Over two full months away.
This is gonna be freakin torture.
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I will take issue on one of your points. That is your comment about a QB the type of Manziel "devaluing Joe Thomas". To me that's total bunk. Joe is a very athletic technique style of LT. The only thing a QB like Manziel would point out in terms of Joe Thomas, is to showcase just how versatile and athletic Joe Thomas really is. Now our G's on the other hand.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I will take issue on one of your points. That is your comment about a QB the type of Manziel "devaluing Joe Thomas". To me that's total bunk.
Joe is a very athletic technique style of LT. The only thing a QB like Manziel would point out in terms of Joe Thomas, is to showcase just how versatile and athletic Joe Thomas really is.
Now our G's on the other hand.....
I was going to say the same thing but decided to wait. Joe is one of the best in the league in space, getting him on the edge as a lead blocker would never be an issue. It would be a plus for us, we can protect in drop backs and he blocks so well in space.
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It also effectively de-values Joe Thomas, ever thought of that? Why have an AllPro LT around to form a pocket, if pocket play isn't his game?
Maybe because he isn't going to play the same O he played in college. Just to suit your dislike for him you have labeled him as a one OFFENSE QB. When he actually did well from the pocket. Did well going to the left cause he had a consistent Matthews riding his man out - Why would this waste Joe T...except that those are nice words for you to put out there to make some point that just isn't valid.
He knows if that guy didn't take an inside rush or bull Rush which you can sense and he then spins out to the left. But in most cases JoeT will ride him wide and JM will know that the clock is ticking time to take off out of the pocket right through that wide open B gap. Which he did often in college. Will we make a playbook chapter for him specifically - sure, I know I would if I'm the OC. But he's going to run the same Offense that Hoyer will run. I also claim that Hoyer will start (how Long? I don't know the future will tell) Manziel will learn the NFL and transition into it first.
He is not a dummy - he can and will learn a new offense. Wilson stays in the pocket as well as move outside (almost always to his right btw). What I do know is the claim made by you yeah its opinion but a little tainted if you ask me.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Y'all didn't get my point....
It's NOT about playbook/designed plays where he'd devalue his team mates. He would devalue them, if he forces them to "play like him" and adjust on the fly. For any OL having a QB where you never know where he's at, that's killer. Ask any Steeler OL, lol.
As for MAnziel and the pocket. It's pretty much a FACT that he threw LESS from the picket than Bridgewater or Bortles and even Wilson in his SR season....and there's Casserly's tape review saying he struggled mightily when contained in the pocket...and if LSU and Mizzou is able to do that to him, so can ANY NFL team.
Point remains, if Manziel doesn't become a pocket-QB FIRST, then he will only "flash" here and there with his "unique" style, but never be the winner some think he can be. He's the prototypical "wow" players and almost never do I like them because the "wow" factor blinds people from the myriad of issues those specs have. I'm always leery of one trick ponies...and Manziel is one at QB imho. Without the threat of his legs, we would talk about him as a nice late round backup QB to groom and not a top 5 overall pick...
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and there's Casserly's tape review saying he struggled mightily when contained in the pocket..
IIRC, Casserly's complaint was that he left the pocket too early and didn't always see open receivers but chose to run too soon.. You comment seems to imply that he can't play from the pocket and I don't think that is what Casserly is saying.
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Sure, and that's part of my point too...name me the last QB that had any sustained success while relying on running? Vick? Kaep? RG3?
If anything Wilson taught NFL scouts is that you need to be/have a throw first QB, a QB that CAN run, but only as last resort. With the 3 guys named above, their skill of running has or is becoming their curse to play and develop the way it should be. Thats what Wilson understood. He took his lumps to learn it the right way instead of taking the short cuts for short term success or a better play/drive here and there.
That's why I laugh when Manziel gets compared to Wilson. We're talking about two different styles here. Big Ben is closer to Wilson than Manziel. Heck, even Bortles and Bridgewater are closer imho.
Of all 3 QBs, Manziel is actually the quickest deciding to run around, it ain't even close. With that said, he's actually the furthest away from being Wilson. He's MUCH closer to Vick, Kaep and RG3....without their arm strength to boot.
I'll caveat your statement and say that I think Manziel, while not having the howitzer that someone like Vick has, does have much more accuracy and touch on his passes than the likes of Vick and Kaepernick...and if we're talking about 2013, he also has better accuracy than the likes of RG3. I do think he has good accuracy and can hit a WR in stride and even "throw people open."
That being said, I do agree with you for the most part. He scares the hell out of me. He is more of a "one read and run" kind of guy from everything I have seen. This seems to work for him in a lot of games he played. However, I really wanted to zero in on him on one game where I knew he was going to play against a disciplined, NFL style defense: LSU. He got his butt handed to him that game. When they forced him to stay within the parameters of a pocket and play like a pocket QB, he really dropped the ball, figuratively and literally.
To win it all in this league, history tells that you HAVE to be able to consistently throw from the pocket. I do actually think Manziel has that ability. I really do. It's just that he hasn't consistently done it yet. That's what scares the crap out of me about him. That, and the propensity of injury for QBs who see running as a consistent option, especially with frames such as his.
I'd be much happier taking Bridgewater and I'd even prefer taking Bortles and sitting him for a year or two over taking Johnny Football and trying to make him succeed with his current sytle in the NFL. I do love his "got it" attitude, his touch, and his accuracy, but a lot about him IMHO needs to be changed if he wants to succeed in the NFL.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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My bad then. I remembered it tha way. So he wasn't contained, but Casserly's point was that Manziel liked "open spaces" and doesn't like to be confined (to a pocket?). We both know those pockets will close down much quicker in the NFL, which in turn could make Manziel bolt to run quicker. Then ther's Cosell, another well respected tape reviwer, saying this: "[Manziel] is a see it, throw it passer," Cosell told Zierlein. "He's not an anticipation thrower. He's not a patient pocket player. If he doesn't see it right away, he'll be gone, he'll leave the pocket. That's what he does up to this point, that's all we have to judge.""Then you have to decide if the random improvisational play, which obviously he's unbelievably phenomenal at, you have to decide how many of those he can make in the NFL. Can you live on those plays in the NFL? These are what evaluators have to determine. You also have to look at his overall play." This is, effectively, the Michael Vick and Jeff Garcia factor. Vick was never able to run an offense the way it was intended: he bolts from the pocket too soon, hangs on to the ball too long and turns the game into backyard football. That can lead to some amazing performances, and he's put up some terrific games, but it's tough to build a consistent offense around it. So then you have to find ways to create a solid basis for your offense to work every year. "There's a wide variation in his play. And I think the consistency issue will always be concerning for any evaluator. And then you have to decide, even when he plays well, how is he playing well? Does that translate to the league?" All that said, Cosell was clear that Manziel has the tools to develop into a quality pocket passer. The questions is whether he'll eventually get there, and that's a much more difficult question to answer. "There's no question he makes throws from the pocket. I went through all of his 15+-yard completions, and the large majority came from the pocket, contrary to what people might think. I view that as a positive. Then you have to break those down in detail and see what kind of throws they were, and he's not an anticipation thrower. And you know in college, guys tend to be wide open." http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/2/13/5409...ddy-bridgewater
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