My stance on Manziel has been stated all over this board consistently. Just to make it clear I do not feel he is a good fit for the Browns.
However, I do recognize his play making ability and the strengths of his game.
What I said is: "[Manziel I believe you adapt around his game." Meaning the offensive play book is catered to his strengths. You would do that with any quarterback. But, Manziel is a special case. Yes, he will have to learn more about playing from the pocket, and not leaving early to run. He is aware that he will have to protect himself better. But I also believe that playing in the division with the Jags, Texans, Colts, and Titans would be a better fit for Manziel than the AFC North. Faster tracks and better weather would help his game. He has a decent arm, and he is accurate but velocity is spin are not hallmarks.
The Texans, and Jags to me are a better fit for his game./color]
Quote: "There's no question he makes throws from the pocket. I went through all of his 15+-yard completions, and the large majority came from the pocket, contrary to what people might think. I view that as a positive. Then you have to break those down in detail and see what kind of throws they were, and he's not an anticipation thrower. And you know in college, guys tend to be wide open."
He also said that. I don't think anybody thinks Manziel is going to be Andrew Luck from day 1.. it took Newton into his 3rd year before he started to trust himself in the pocket more and more, learned to throw the ball away and live to play another day, etc... I suspect it will take Manziel a couple of years as well.. I could see his career taking a similar trajectory to Newton's... his rookie year will be very exciting and he will win you some games with his feet and he might cost you a couple with his lack of discipline, he may take a step back in year 2 as coaches try to reign him in and get him to work more from the pocket, then in year 3, if he gets it like Cam did, he will put it all together...
That's why I think his interview is so important, you have to get a handle on how willing he is to be coached, how he is going to handle adversity and criticism if/when it comes, stuff like that.... I still think his mindset is the only thing that could prevent him from being really good.
I don't know you haven't been batting very well lately...lol
I went through all of his 15+-yard completions, and the large majority came from the pocket, contrary to what people might think. I view that as a positive. Then you have to break those down in detail and see what kind of throws they were, and he's not an anticipation thrower.
Thats one of the problems evaluating college QBs - look the windows in college in NFL are greatly different. Its a transition every EVERY college Qb has to go through.
What I did like about Manziel is that unfortunately for him he didn't have a good pocket. Matthews at LT was pretty consistent...that was it. So he had a very uncomfortable pocket at A&M and was successful. The other extreme was Leinhart at USC man I don't remember a better college pocket than that - nobody around him 4-5 seconds every pass play. Of course other reason and that and he failed. But out of all the QBs out there JM had to deal with the kind of pressure he will see in the NFL.
Outside of a few Can't miss kids...Payton, Luck, Bridgewater is close. It a very tough evaluation for the PROS let alone us. So far I have been lucky with my guesses on the good ones...I think Manziel will be good. And I rather have him Than not take a QB at #4 waiting for what would be a higher risk to become a franchise QB. The only wild card is the kid Bortles...cause there is no rush to start whoever we pick. I have no clue Ive only seen what was shown as combine highlites of the QB with a throw here n there.
What I do know Farmer has been studying the QBs from way back in September.
JMHO...in Farmer I trust cause I do and also don't have a choice.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I don't think the problems really arose when Manziel had to deal with "pressure" per se. He was able to do some of his greatest plays under pressure because, much like Kaepernick, most of that pressure allowed him a "bailout" running lane.
Where he really struggled, and the LSU game is a great example of this, is where other teams brought pressure in a very disciplined style. They maintained excellent gap integrity where none of the DL gave up their gap assignment. When JM didn't have an opening to take advantage of, he folded.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Quote: LSU...was that his worst game? Just asking as I forgot the opponent on his two bad games. I do know he did well against Alabama's PRO STYLE D
Yes, LSU was by far his worst game.. Missouri wasn't great but not nearly as bad as LSU... From what I remember, LSU outrushed TA&M like 350 yards to 125 or something like that.. TOP was about 40 minutes to 20 minutes.. .they just dominated TA&M in every phase of the game.. I'm not sure that one game is an indication of anything specific... it was just a dominating performance by LSU.. So just take the LSU game as the low point and the Alabama game as the high point and keep everything in context.
Yeah tabber that was by far his worse game. In that game LSU brought the house on every play (or so it seemed), but they have so many athletes in the secondary that they didn't "lose" WRs in coverage the way Bama did. Bama really struggled in coverage this year.......aka staying disciplined in coverage. I live down here, and it was the worst secondary I've seen from a Saban team since he really got the program rolling.
I like Johnny,but I wouldn't take him over Teddy. Him and Bortles are both guys I would take, but I would also understand going in that you have to develop them some and wouldn't play them right away.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
Everybody has bad games and reportedly he wasn't at 100% in that LSU game, at least that's what some on here said.
That's not even my beef with him. The thing is, I wasn't impressed with his Bama game. The biggest plays there simply won't happen in a NFL game and probably not even a second time vs Bama either. He got simply lucky on so many boneheaded decisions...like when he hopped into a bunch of DL, then out of it again or the "no-look" hail mary throw to Evans in the middle of the field. People are raving over those plays, but I consider them to be dumb plays, not good one's. I guess my point here is, that I do not even like him on his "good games"....exciting doesn't equate to good
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
One thing we do agree on is that Manziel certainly wouldn't be my first choice in this QB class.
I don't quite see all of the red flags you do however. He does continue to look downfield while he scrambles. I also don't believe he was afforded the option of having a stable pocket to stay in.
I'm not sold on him. Yet at the same time, I de believe he's a much better option than any QB that came out last year and unless we continue to win 4 games a year, probably better than any prospect we may have a shot at for some time.
I think one needs to consider, we have a window. A window we may not have again for some time. At least hopefully. Once that window shuts, are odds go down drastically.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I guess I can only relate the fan's being drawn to Manziel as it relates to my draw to Frye, Pre-NFL snap, or Colt, pre-Harrison knockout. Everyone clamored then about those two not having the height needed to be a pro or he's to light, or he's to this or that. I'll wait and see what the FO pull the trigger on and how that selection pans out. My take, no way on Manziel. To high a risk for me as he comes across to be no different than either one of the afore mentioned QB's. I'd stay at 4 and put my money on a stronger wager like Clowney or Watkins or, drop back.
just my 2 cents worth. Go Browns please be a good draft please be a good draft please be a good draft
Hears to hoping Dorsey is the Browns Ozzie Newsome.
Quote: Everybody has bad games and reportedly he wasn't at 100% in that LSU game, at least that's what some on here said.
That's not even my beef with him. The thing is, I wasn't impressed with his Bama game. The biggest plays there simply won't happen in a NFL game and probably not even a second time vs Bama either. He got simply lucky on so many boneheaded decisions...like when he hopped into a bunch of DL, then out of it again or the "no-look" hail mary throw to Evans in the middle of the field. People are raving over those plays, but I consider them to be dumb plays, not good one's. I guess my point here is, that I do not even like him on his "good games"....exciting doesn't equate to good
Bored at work, so I just watched the 17 minute highlights from that game.. I think it showed almost all of his pass attempts and his runs and it didn't just show all of the good ones... A few general comments... I honestly only saw him abandon a decent pocket once or twice, most of the time when he ran or left the pocket it was because he had to... like the way he keeps his head up and his eyes downfield when he's moving out of the pocket... I swear there were times when he saw open space behind DL so he moved sideways to create running lanes for himself by getting the DE to move out to contain him and then he would cut back inside him.. Watched the scramble, get away from the defender and heave it up for the big play, it was 3rd and 8, even if that gets picked it's almost as good as a punt and it's hard to not be impressed with the fact that he even got a throw off on that play, was it luck that it was completed, certainly some of it was but he put it up for his WRs to make a play and one did, just as easily could have been an INT.. his first INT in the endzone, the receiver quit on the corner route and started backpeddling instead of running.. the second INT that was returned for a TD, all on JM.. bad decision, guy was well covered with help over the top... He had a couple passes that he missed because he just missed them, had a drop or two (one was a big PI call anyway but the ball should have been caught for a TD).. His hopping in the pocket causes him to throw too many balls off balance falling back... when he steps into it he has a pretty good arm.... he looks calm and under control in the pocket, surveys the field pretty well... throws the endzone fade route better than anybody we've had here in a long time.. shows good touch and accuracy on his deep balls... missed (or almost missed) high several times on the shorter throws... for all that he runs, he seldom seems to take a direct hit...
I understand your reservations but overall, I don't see how you can watch that game and think he didn't play pretty well..
Garcia got to the NFL when he was 29, but if Manziel put up Garcia's numbers from when he was with the 49ers on a consistent basis I would take him every time.
We want football players appears to be the theme of the day. No idea if Farmer is into the whole stats thing the way lombardi and Banner were. which is funny both talked about stats and were into the height weight speed thing, yet were infatuated with Johny Football.
Quote: We want football players appears to be the theme of the day. No idea if Farmer is into the whole stats thing the way lombardi and Banner were. which is funny both talked about stats and were into the height weight speed thing, yet were infatuated with Johny Football.
And how does that eliminate Manziel?? That is the first thing that the scouts/analysts say about him.......aka he doesn't look the part, but the kid is a football player. As you alluded to, his measurables certainly are not why teams are looking at him.
I am not sold on the guy, but I like him and would be good with drafting him. However, I see nothing that Farmer has said that eliminates JFM from being selected, and if anything that comment makes me think they are higher on JFM than some of the others who are here based on measurables (Bortles) and not what they did on the field.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
Even teams who proclaim a "BPA" philosophy tend to bump up QB when they lack one.
Hoyer, with 2 games experience, Weeden, Campbell, and Tanney do not instill great confidence in anyone. I suspect that both Weeden and Campbell will be gone. Maybe Tanney catches on with the new staff, maybe not. Maybe we add a guy like Grossman as the backup to either Hoyer, or a rookie. However, given the uncertainty we have at the QB spot, I find it inconceivable that we would pass on a top guy if one is available, unless we are convinced 100% that he won't be successful. The QB spot is so vital that we need to take extraordinary measures to find one.
Personally, I think that we will wind up trading up in this draft for a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I'm still simply not sold on the idea that you lump all three of the top QB's in this draft into one group and simply play "insert name here" as an answer.
I don't believe all three of them are equal or qualify as such. Now I don't claim to know where our FO has them rated or who they would or would not select at #4. Or possibly move up for. But it just goes against the grain for me to buy into the notion that an NFL FO would use such a draft strategy.
I'm not a great talent evaluator in terms of QB's. However in "Pit's world", I would certainly give the #4 pick or possibly even move up if it weren't an "RG3 type deal", to get Bridgewater. I'm still uncertain when it comes to Manziel. Bortles? No thank you unless I moved down slightly and could grab him. Unless you believe all three are equal talents, which I do not, there must be some distinction between the three IMO
I mean would you do that with any other position? I understand we need a QB in the worst way. But at what point is the gamble too great at passing on a player you believe is game ready and pro bowl caliber on a QB you feel to be a much higher gamble?
I don't know the answer to that question, but I'm pretty sure that line exists.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
1 - As we all know, there is the question about off field stuff. Assuming that we answer those satisfactorily …
2 - On his deep throws he seems to need to rev back and throw with his shoulder. As if he needs to grunt to get the ball there. Not sure if he does this on all his deep throws but I have seen it a few times. I don't think that I see that movement in the top NFL qb's. I could be missing that in those guys though.
Other than that, I am okay with him.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: We want football players appears to be the theme of the day. No idea if Farmer is into the whole stats thing the way lombardi and Banner were. which is funny both talked about stats and were into the height weight speed thing, yet were infatuated with Johny Football.
And how does that eliminate Manziel?? That is the first thing that the scouts/analysts say about him.......aka he doesn't look the part, but the kid is a football player. As you alluded to, his measurables certainly are not why teams are looking at him.
I am not sold on the guy, but I like him and would be good with drafting him. However, I see nothing that Farmer has said that eliminates JFM from being selected, and if anything that comment makes me think they are higher on JFM than some of the others who are here based on measurables (Bortles) and not what they did on the field.
They are gonna draft whomever Haslam wants and haslam is an SEC guy. With that said, the Browns could easily decide to take a QB in Murray or Metlenger later in the draft and go receiver or OT here.
Quote: One thing we do agree on is that Manziel certainly wouldn't be my first choice in this QB class.
I don't quite see all of the red flags you do however. He does continue to look downfield while he scrambles. I also don't believe he was afforded the option of having a stable pocket to stay in.
I'm not sold on him. Yet at the same time, I de believe he's a much better option than any QB that came out last year and unless we continue to win 4 games a year, probably better than any prospect we may have a shot at for some time.
I think one needs to consider, we have a window. A window we may not have again for some time. At least hopefully. Once that window shuts, are odds go down drastically.
Quote: Please elaborate.......what does they value their rankings mean exactly??? And more importantly how does that relate to JFM????
He can't elaborate. He doesn't like Manziel, so he is making up things to support his opinion.
I want to add a couple of points:
--I don't think our offensive players will suffer if Manziel is our QB. Most guys are playing in spread offenses in college.
--Manziel keeps his eyes downfield when scrambling. That is a good thing.
--I do worry about Manziel getting hurt. He runs the ball up the middle quite a bit. He would be an open target in the NFL. You can't help the team from the sidelines.
--I worry that he may throw too many picks. He threw too many last year. Coverages are more sophisticated in the pros and guys close faster.
--I think all guys try to play hard, but some guys thrive in pressure situations and some do not. Manziel has the biggest stones around.
--I think his off the field character concerns are not an issue. In fact, I think he is a good leader.
--I would take Teddy over Manziel, but if Teddy is gone, then you have to take Manziel.
I pimp JM somewhat for our pick at #4 cause of the slot.
Bridgewater...actually I stated it in 2012...he will be the next best QB after Luck/RG3. From day one I have stated he IS the over all #1 pick. Why I don't talk about him...just like I didn't talk about LUCK...why bother he ain't going to be there for us, neither by trade or dropping down to our slot.
Just like I'll say it now - Next years draft Overall #1 pick will be Conner Cook. I won't talk about him then cause - Hopefully we will never speak about getting a QB for a while. And we will not be close to getting the Overall #1 pick despite once again being ridiculed by some expert sites claiming we are the #32 team in the NFL...Bozos
Yeah that LSU game was also the game during the week JM couldn't even pick up or hold the ball due to a sprained Thumb. Actually we saw the advantage of his big hands that game for the simple fact he played. There was a game in 2012 that he played bad in...I don't think he had an injury in that one. But Alabama in both 2012 and 2013 he excelled as he did in so many big games. OH and HIS DEFENSE SUCKED!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Yep... not a JM fan but it's a nice 40 time. I am not sure why Teddy isn't running the 40 either unless he's added some weight. He does look bigger at the combine but IDK.
boyd began the year pretty much 1 or 2 on just about everyones board and the inaccuracy and the total brainfart throws and decision making killed him in my eyes. The guy would have had 20 ints this yea if defensive backs in the ACC could catch. He was my preseason top QB and really just played himself into a 5th round pick.
Go Browns 
please be a good draft 
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