Yeah our problem is we have a roster full of PF and no true center..hell even our PF aren't true PF...thompson is a waste, I just hate his game. I can't see how mike brown can keep his job. No one could look at this team and say..oh this team has no talent, no coach can work with it..I look at this team with several pieces and with an AVERAGE NBA coach could tweak the rotations and actually implement a system and it wouldn't look so bad...this is just bad basketball..Playoffs are officially off the table and in the east and with the whole win now mentality/promise, and the moves that were made...I don't know how gilbert can face the fans with brown another year. To be honest, I'm starting to think Gilbert might be the problem.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Dan Gilbert IS the problem. He isn't patient because he knows attendance is going down. He had a grace period, but that's over. He BADLY made a monumental error hiring Chris Grant. Dude was a joke among the NBA. GMs actually stopped talking to him because of his trade ideas.
Yea Gilbert has made himself look like an idiot too many times opening his mouth. Did he really think the number 1 pick in one of the weakest drafts in recent memory was going to make the cavs a playoff team? Then he goes out and hires Mike Brown without interviewing anyone else if I remember correctly. I know it was grant's idea, but gilbert could've said no.
I would be all for giving coach another year, but the team hasn't improved. No consistency at all, guys just look bad. Deng looks like Alonzo Gee out there. If he keeps brown, you could be sure irving will demand a trade. what would be the point of staying?
I like Tristan, but I wonder if he is a fit on this team.This team needs to be about spacing on offense, and he is not a spacing type player.
Our defense would be a whole lot better if the Guards would stop letting people blow right by them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Yea Gilbert has made himself look like an idiot too many times opening his mouth. Did he really think the number 1 pick in one of the weakest drafts in recent memory was going to make the cavs a playoff team? Then he goes out and hires Mike Brown without interviewing anyone else if I remember correctly. I know it was grant's idea, but gilbert could've said no.
I would be all for giving coach another year, but the team hasn't improved. No consistency at all, guys just look bad. Deng looks like Alonzo Gee out there. If he keeps brown, you could be sure irving will demand a trade. what would be the point of staying?
Like we said about Pat Shurmur, and probably for Chud.. Fire them immediately if you think next year will be another evaluation year...
My advice would be to keep this Griffin guy around... Sounds like he has a lot of respect around the league, and I would not be surprised to see him chased by a few teams if the Cavs cut him loose...
Then let him make a decision on the coach. Let him hand pick a guy.
Also, really nice ceremony for Z last night. I know Windy made it seem like they were only doing this to woo Lebron back, but there was a genuinely good vibe last night... A lot of key Cavs people showed up for that... The guy's parents flew out from Lithuania. I'm not saying they didn't see this as an opportunity to send out an olive branch to LBJ, but to say it was only for that reason is incorrect.
The display on the court last night by the Cavs was awful though. The last two nights are the end if you ask me. It would take a miracle now.
I agree, its over. Just hope they lose most of them to increase their odds to get in the top 3. its good to see the front office and james have let the hard feelings go. i wish sone of the fans would do the same. no point in holding grudges. Time to let it go.
Quote: I agree, its over. Just hope they lose most of them to increase their odds to get in the top 3. its good to see the front office and james have let the hard feelings go. i wish sone of the fans would do the same. no point in holding grudges. Time to let it go.
Yup, there is nothing wrong with letting i go.
I've been over it a long time. I have nothing against the guy, and still enjoy watching him play.
I have to be honest though. I am still against him getting his number retired or any kind of stuff like that. Despite the fact that we are all leaving the decision and everything in the past, I still think those actions should keep him out of that honor.
Yes, he's obviously the greatest to ever put on a Cavs jersey, and he has numerous team records, he was on the only team to make the finals, etc... but a retired number should be reserved for people who mean a lot to the organization. There aren't rules for having your number up there. It's entirely up to the team, and if you ask me, it just doesn't seem right. Forgive, but not forget.
If he came back and made things right, i would have no problem retiring his number. Those were some of the best times to be a cavs fan. Beats the hell out of what were watching now. And for that i am grateful.
Quote: If he came back and made things right, i would have no problem retiring his number. Those were some of the best times to be a cavs fan. Beats the hell out of what were watching now. And for that i am grateful.
That would change a lot. I just wonder if that ceremony really did anything for him. Sure he could have one in Miami someday, but I don't think the reception would be anything like the one he would have had in Cleveland...
I thought both sides handled it well yesterday.
But man it's really disappointing that this team is pretty much finished. Watching them try to play defense is cringeworthy. They constantly need help from teammates and that leaves shooters all over the place open. I really think if Dion could turn himself into a better than average defender, he'd be a really really good player that people would feel better about with that draft pick...
He played like a bum in one game. His last game here he had a triple double with almost 20 rebounds. Just didn't have enough talent to get by boston. I've watched this bunch give no effort in losing to the lakers without nash, kobe or gasol at home. I've seen enough losing in the past 4 years, that I would take him back no question.
Well at least we passed on Noel to draft a guy who would help us win this year , signed a few overrated stiffs in free agency to keep the young guys on the bench and keep them from developing, and shipped off 5 picks in the middle of the year for a couple half year rentals so we could make a push to 30 wins and make guys like Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker a pipe dream.
The fact that it was so predictable makes it all the more infuriating
This team was never anywhere close to being ready to contend; the young core was simply too young and is severely overrated among Cleveland fans to begin with. I'm going to borrow a couple words to describe the whole mess-- panicked disaster.
speaking of Bennett, what happened to his green light? since the beginning of February, Mike Brown had told him to take any open shot that was there for him. as a result, he was averaging alot of attempts even when he didn't get alot of minutes. and, he seemed to be much more relaxed and putting up numbers across the board with the freedom.
the past 2 games, he has only taken 1 shot in each. not big minutes, but that hasn't mattered lately. possibly just a blip, but wanted to make note before it becomes a defined pattern.
Quote: Well at least we passed on Noel to draft a guy who would help us win this year , signed a few overrated stiffs in free agency to keep the young guys on the bench and keep them from developing, and shipped off 5 picks in the middle of the year for a couple half year rentals so we could make a push to 30 wins and make guys like Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker a pipe dream.
The fact that it was so predictable makes it all the more infuriating
This team was never anywhere close to being ready to contend; the young core was simply too young and is severely overrated among Cleveland fans to begin with. I'm going to borrow a couple words to describe the whole mess-- panicked disaster.
But.... But...
WHAT ABOUT A WINNING CULTURE?!?
This team obviously isn't trying to tank. You don't make the moves we made if you want to tank. This team just sucks. They don't have enough talent and they don't have guys that fit. People were just upset because of the last few seasons so they wanted to make the playoffs this year. I don't have to encourage tanking because the team is doing enough losing on their own.
Ready to contend for a title? No way. Ready to contend for a playoff spot though…different story altogether. The talent is there to be a bottom-half playoff team, especially this season. Problem is that talent, albeit a very important part of the equation, is just that: a part. Experience is another key part, and so is basic teamwork.
It's a shame that these kids can't put their massive (and, quite frankly, completely unearned) egos aside long enough to achieve some modicum of sustained success. I'd hoped that trading for Deng would've instilled some professionalism but it seems to have done just the opposite. Deng looks like the end of the season absolutely cannot get here fast enough for him. I like Hawes' game but he has absolutely no incentive to stick around this sinking ship.
As for trading away some second round picks, I don't really care. It's time to stop worrying about the next green kid they can try to plug in and start worrying about getting the best out of what they do have.
Anybody watch the Heat-Bulls game yesterday? That's how a team plays basketball. That team was supposed to pack it in after losing their star player for the year and trading away a key vet and team leader.
Noel is severely undersized, and can't even play yet. Hell, he may never play. He is going to have to add weight/strength just to withstand the banging down low in the NBA. How that weight he will have to add will affect his knees remains to be seen. We aren't talking 10# here ....... he is almost certainly going to have to add 40-50#. Remember, he weighed in at 206 prior to the draft. Kyrie almost weights that much. Noel really had no offensive game, and is a player who really needs to be built from the ground up.
I don't see how he helps this team, other than he is tall.
As far as bad free agent decisions, the Cavaliers signed Earl Clark and Jarrett Jack, so that would be about it fpr potential bad decisions. I actually liked the signing of Jack, as he was a superb backup prior to this year. This year might be his worst year, from a production standpoint. As far as Clark, along with a couple of 2nd round picks, and a 1st rounder we are unlikely to ever see, he was turned into Deng. Even though that hasn't worked out, I would still do that trade about 99 times out of 100. We plugged a solid, productive veteran into our position of biggest weakness. Unfortunately it didn;t work, but it was a great move at the time.
I do think that Deng will be gone next year, but I think that we'll manage to hang on to Hawes, and I like what he brings to the team. He has not looked like a spectacular defender so far, but a huge part of that is defensive breakdowns on the edge, where he has to try to cover the guy driving uncontested, and his own guy. Our Guards are awful defenders. We really need them to get with the program. As far as Bennett, I can see why they drafted him. This team needs bigs who can play in space, as opposed to right under the basket, jamming up the lanes. I like Tristan, and on a differently constructed team, he would be a very, very good player. However, on this team his strengths don't mesh with Irving and Waiters.
I do agree with you that we really did get ahead of ourselves as far as how far along this team was. We have had a total of 3 drafts since James left, and the team was torn down to the frame. We added Irving and Tristan one year, Waiters and a very decent backup in Zeller the next, and basically Bennett this year. (so far) With us drafting 5 players, that means that we had to be absolutely right on all of them in order for this thing to work ..... and there are problems. I think that all of the guys I mentioned are talented ...... but they don't all mesh well. I hope that Bennett will be better next year, with a year under his belt.
You are definitely right in that many of us, myself included, overestimated the step forward this team would make this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Part of the Bulls success is that they're used to Rose being gone. Meaning, they are used to playing without him. And the East is so bad, a team like the Bulls can be the 3 or 4 seed with such a crappy roster.
Thibs is a good coach and they know how to play defense. But they'll get eaten alive in the 2nd round of the playoffs this year.
Rumor has Melo joining Chicago next year. If I were Melo, I'd want to go to Chicago before staying in NY. Forget about the extra guaranteed $30m he'd be passing up, as long as you stay relatively healthy, he'll make most of that back regardless of where he goes. And come on, the Knicks are a bigger disaster than the Cavs. They won't be able to improve their team until 2015.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
This is a little bit old (2 years) but the idea remains the same. Bulls defense vs. Cavs defense. Bulls had Tom Thibodeau as coach at the time of making this (as they do now), Cavs were Byron Scott at the time I believe. I'm not sure to what degree Brown runs a sophisticated defense or if that is just hype.
It kept popping up in my head when the Spurs were being discussed, it is what I also like about the bulls. Having a solid defensive PF/C like Duncan / Noah is a good thing. The Cavs are just a really confusing roster right now in that respect.
That's my point. The Bulls and their mediocre roster are 7 games over .500. The Cavs are 16 games under. I don't buy for a second that the Cavs roster is so bad that it's 11.5 games worse than that Bulls team. Effort and heart is the difference.
That the Bulls won't get past the semis isn't a knock on them. Unless somebody shocks the world, they'll be matched against the Heat or the Pacers.
I don't remember anybody tanking for the chance to draft Paul George or Roy Hibbert, either…
One thing Chicago has going for it is a veteran roster.
They may not make the Finals, but a veteran roster in the East is probably enough to make the playoffs.
They have 11 year veteran Boozer. (4th season in Chicago)
They have a veteran Mike Dunleavy.
Taj Gibson is in his 5th season in Chicago.
Hinrich is a 10 year pro.
Noah has been in Chicago for 7 years.
Their roster is an average of 3 years/player older than ours. Even a modestly talented roster with great experience can grab a playoff spot in a down year like this year. Isn't that always the debate we have ....... should a team hold on to the last vestiges of its past and try to make the playoffs, or tear it down to start over and build a team that can contend for several years to come? They stayed largely together, and as a result, still know what it takes to win, even if they can't put it all together perfectly every night.
Some of these guys may be slipping, but they know how to play the game, and many know how to play together. That is what we are missing. I really almost forgot that Irving had only been here 2 years prior to this season, and that he is one of the longest tenured players on the team.
Man, his 3rd year with the team, and who had been here longer? Gee? Andy? That's about it. Who else has been here longer than Irving?
The team has changed coaches already from Irving's rookie year. This is a very young team, lacking experience, and with mismatched parts in some spots. Our veteran leadership is guys like Jack, who has struggled, Andy, who is hurt more than he plays lately, and Gee, who has been relegated to the bench. Deng was supposed to provide that veteran lift ..... but didn't.
This team really needs a starter who is also a strong leader. The kind of guy who will pull players together for an extra 2 hours in the gym, so they can get better, and better together. That's what this team is lacking. I hate to even cite him as an example, because I don't think that he's coming back, but James would fill that role perfectly. However, I am sure that there are other guys who could also fill that type of role. They just have to be willing to be a leader, instead of a follower.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
This is a little bit old (2 years) but the idea remains the same. Bulls defense vs. Cavs defense. Bulls had Tom Thibodeau as coach at the time of making this (as they do now), Cavs were Byron Scott at the time I believe. I'm not sure to what degree Brown runs a sophisticated defense or if that is just hype.
It kept popping up in my head when the Spurs were being discussed, it is what I also like about the bulls. Having a solid defensive PF/C like Duncan / Noah is a good thing. The Cavs are just a really confusing roster right now in that respect.
Mike Browns defense is purely hype. It isn't any better now than it was before. We can't defend the 3, we allow consistent dribble penetration, and we can't defend a pick and roll. True that defense is 85% want to, but that's on the coach to instill that..Mike hasn't done it. Usually you can mask bad defense for the most part in the regular season with a high scoring offense, then it gets exposed in the post-season. Well we don't even have that.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
We have improved from dead last, or damn close, in defense last year, to the middle of the pack this year.
However, when your guards can't guard anyone cutting to the basket, then it blows up your entire defense.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Well at least we passed on Noel to draft a guy who would help us win this year , signed a few overrated stiffs in free agency to keep the young guys on the bench and keep them from developing, and shipped off 5 picks in the middle of the year for a couple half year rentals so we could make a push to 30 wins and make guys like Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker a pipe dream.
The fact that it was so predictable makes it all the more infuriating
This team was never anywhere close to being ready to contend; the young core was simply too young and is severely overrated among Cleveland fans to begin with. I'm going to borrow a couple words to describe the whole mess-- panicked disaster.
But.... But...
WHAT ABOUT A WINNING CULTURE?!?
This team obviously isn't trying to tank. You don't make the moves we made if you want to tank. This team just sucks. They don't have enough talent and they don't have guys that fit. People were just upset because of the last few seasons so they wanted to make the playoffs this year. I don't have to encourage tanking because the team is doing enough losing on their own.
I pretty much agree..... I think.
It's obvious they were planning to win now; I just thought it was foolish and short sighted. At least I've been consistent with that. At the end of the day a 30 win season when trying isn't any more exciting to me than a 20 win season while "building for the future". And actually the former is a lot more frustrating because it's pathetic when the team tried this hard in this bad of a conference and they still suck.
I know that the team had won a lot of regular season games in the past when the best player of our generation was in the early-prime part of his career. He covered up a lot of incomptence in ownership, the front office, and coaching. Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland? Oh and Gilbert hired Mike Brown......... wait for it......... twice.
I do find it funny that Bulls fans are puffing their chests out about a win in the regular season... My how far Bulls fans have come...
The national media loves them, it was a lovefest on twitter last night. Pretty hilarious for a team that will get swiped in 5 games by either Miami or Indy in the playoffs.....
Joakim Noah, Carlos Boozer, etc... Those guys NEVER show up in the playoffs but somehow always get love. I don't get it. Is it because the jersey says Chicago?
Quote: We have improved from dead last, or damn close, in defense last year, to the middle of the pack this year.
However, when your guards can't guard anyone cutting to the basket, then it blows up your entire defense.
I think that has less to do with mike brown and the fact that we have played some really really bad teams. Add in a healthy andy and Deng who is a plus level defender for the most part which they didn't have last year. I'm not even close to giving mike brown any credit for the "defense" this year.. everything else reeks and that's on mike brown. But I doubt we will ever know for sure becuase if Gilbert sticks with Brown, I can see all the decent players on this team going elsewhere. I'll admit i expected atleast playoffs this year just from the simple fact that we had another year with the young guys together and a pathetic east.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Quote: Joakim Noah, Carlos Boozer, etc... Those guys NEVER show up in the playoffs but somehow always get love. I don't get it. Is it because the jersey says Chicago?
What is not to get? The Bulls play harder than anyone and with more passion. Noah is a mad man right now. As is Taj Gibson.
Quote: Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland?
Please enlighten me on what moves Ferry & Co could have done to land another All Star...
Did they wiff on some pics? Yeah... But once your winning 60 games a year hitting on the 30th player in the draft is just dumb luck..
So yeah, what detailed, laid out plans, did we not go through to bring specific talent here?
I'm not going to go too deep into this. I know there are always a thousand excuses why the team couldn't land players. I say that they just had to do their jobs better over the course of 6 or whatever drafts, free agency periods, and trades.... i.e. don't pick Luke Jackson, sign Larry Hughes, trade for an over the hill, broken down Shaq, etc.
Quote: Joakim Noah, Carlos Boozer, etc... Those guys NEVER show up in the playoffs but somehow always get love. I don't get it. Is it because the jersey says Chicago?
What is not to get? The Bulls play harder than anyone and with more passion. Noah is a mad man right now. As is Taj Gibson.
I just always thought if we are going to judge the upper echelon of players by what they do in the playoffs, then we should judge everyone that way. Those 2 have been no shows in the playoffs throughout their careers.
Quote: Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland?
Please enlighten me on what moves Ferry & Co could have done to land another All Star...
Did they wiff on some pics? Yeah... But once your winning 60 games a year hitting on the 30th player in the draft is just dumb luck..
So yeah, what detailed, laid out plans, did we not go through to bring specific talent here?
I'm not going to go too deep into this. I know there are always a thousand excuses why the team couldn't land players. I say that they just had to do their jobs better over the course of 6 or whatever drafts, free agency periods, and trades.... i.e. don't pick Luke Jackson, sign Larry Hughes, trade for an over the hill, broken down Shaq, etc.
If you don't sign Larry Hughes, then you are either not spending money or bringing in a guy like Bobby Simmons who also would have done nothing. I don't know why people continue to think that Ray Allen or Michael Redd were going to take a 20m paycut to come to Cleveland.
Like the move or not, which most of us in hindsight don't, Larry Hughes was the best option for them that year. Overall it was a bad signing, but Mike Brown did actually have him playing really good defense in that 2007 run..
The failures of the Cavs in the Lebron era probably rest on those first two years where they were still in the lottery but struck out on getting that 2nd guy.
And also, for all the talk of how Lebron had nobody around him, they did go 60 wins back to back, which even for a regular season accomplishment, that's impressive... They also had a 2-1 advantage in that Boston series after handing them their worst home playoff loss in team history. Then game 5, and then game 6, which people always forget, was very winnable, and I believe Lebron had 9 turnovers in that game. He also takes his blame for that era.
You will never hear all that from a national outlet, because they only see it as Lebron had nobody and that's the end of it. Just like how they see the Cavs as a horrible team but Kyrie Irving is awesome and needs to go. They aren't watching these games, because he takes his blame in this mess as well.
Pretty funny how the national media molds their stories and angles...
Quote: Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland?
Please enlighten me on what moves Ferry & Co could have done to land another All Star...
Did they wiff on some pics? Yeah... But once your winning 60 games a year hitting on the 30th player in the draft is just dumb luck..
So yeah, what detailed, laid out plans, did we not go through to bring specific talent here?
I'm not going to go too deep into this. I know there are always a thousand excuses why the team couldn't land players. I say that they just had to do their jobs better over the course of 6 or whatever drafts, free agency periods, and trades.... i.e. don't pick Luke Jackson, sign Larry Hughes, trade for an over the hill, broken down Shaq, etc.
Which is pretty much the cop-out answer everyone gives when they get asked this question. I agree with the bad draft picks part though, and most of that falls on Jim Paxson. He was terrible.
The things like signing Larry Hughes things just look terrible in hindsight, but pays no attention to what was going on at the time the deal was signed. At the time, Lebron was one year away from signing an extension or bailing to free agency. The Cavs were sitting on a ton of cap space and the prevailing opinion was that the Cavs needed to spend it, otherwise Lebron would see no commitment to winning, and leave for Free Agency. Unfortunately, it was a weak free agent class. The two best choices (Ray Allen, Michael Redd) opted to resign with their current teams, which meant the Cavs had to overpay Hughes to ensure that they would get SOMEONE that was considered a top free agent. They also picked up Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones, which were the two best three point shooters available.
They turned out to be terrible contracts, but at the time, it was pretty much "spend your cap space, or watch Lebron walk".
I'd say DG should have bought the team 2 years earlier so that maybe they could have gotten Jim Paxson out of there, but we don't really know if Danny Ferry would have done better. His entire tenure was nothing but late picks. Although he did pick Danny Green who has turned himself into a really good player.
Quote: If you don't sign Larry Hughes, then you are either not spending money or bringing in a guy like Bobby Simmons who also would have done nothing. I don't know why people continue to think that Ray Allen or Michael Redd were going to take a 20m paycut to come to Cleveland.
I've always kind of wanted to write an App that was called something like "2005 Cavs GM" ... you'd get the cap space and options that Ferry did, and it's your chance to "bring Lebron" talent. Of course, if you don't make Lebron happy enough with your moves, you'd get a "Lebron has entered Free Agency/Game-Over" screen.
Don't sign Larry Hughes and opt to hold onto your cap-space for another year? "Lebron sees no commitment to winning and has left for Free Agency!"
Don't want to give Z a huge extension for another few years? "Lebron feels organization has betrayed a beloved teammate and has opted for Free Agency!"
Don't make a last-ditch trade for a broken-down Shaq? "Cavs get past Boston but destroyed once again by Dwight Howard. Lebron leaves for Free Agency!"
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, signed a few overrated stiffs in free agency to keep the young guys on the bench and keep them from developing, and shipped off 5 picks in the middle of the year for a couple half year rentals so we could make a push to 30 wins and make guys like Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker a pipe dream.
