DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Ukraine on the brink

The problem with all of that is stability.

You have a nation and a leader that begs to question if the one who you are dealing with will even have any say in the future.

The deals you make are only as good as the people you are making the deals with.

American Prestige won't keep right wing fascists in power.
Russian Prestige won't keep left wing fascists in power.

Let's be honest here, you're talking about instilling fear into other countries. That is what makes terrorists.

Nice twist and you are correct. But if history should have taught us anything, it should have taught us that making deals with unstable people and or unstable governments pays no dividends in the end.

Ukraine’s Leader Flees Palace as Protesters Widen Control (NY Times)

By ANDREW HIGGINS and ANDREW E. KRAMERFEB. 22, 2014

KIEV, Ukraine — Opposition leaders took control of the presidential palace outside Kiev on Saturday, as Ukraine’s president, Viktor F. Yanukovych, fled the capital and Parliament, beginning to chart what appeared to be a new course for the former Soviet republic, called for elections to replace him.

Members of an opposition group from Lviv called the 31st Hundred — carrying clubs and some of them wearing masks — were in control of the entryways to the palace Saturday morning. They watched as thousands of citizens strolled through the grounds during the day, gazing in wonder at the mansions, zoo, golf course, enclosure for rare pheasants and other luxuries, set in a birch forest on a bluff soaring above the Dnepr River.

“This commences a new life for Ukraine,” said Roman Dakus, a protester-turned-guard, who was wearing a ski helmet and carrying a length of pipe as he blocked a doorway. “This is only a start,” he added. “We need now to make a new structure and a new system, a foundation for our future, with rights for everybody, and we need to investigate who ordered the violence.”

Mr. Yanukovych appeared on television Saturday afternoon, saying that he had been forced to leave the capital because of a “coup,” and that he had not resigned, and did not plan to. He said he understood that people had suffered in recent days. “I feel pain for my country,” he said. “I feel responsibility. I will keep you informed of what we will do further, every day.”

He also said that he was traveling to the southeastern part of the country to talk to his supporters — a move that carried potentially ominous overtones, in that the southeast is the location, among other things, of the Crimea, the historically Russian section of the country where a Russian naval base is located.

But Parliament subsequently declared Mr. Yanukovych unable to carry out his duties and set a date of May 25 to elect his replacement.

A spokeswoman for the imprisoned opposition leader and former prime minister, Yulia V. Tymoshenko, said Ms. Tymoshenko would be released within hours from the prison hospital in eastern Ukraine where she was being held.

Protesters said they had seen helicopters and cars leaving the palace compound Friday night and Saturday morning, and Mr. Yanukovych said that his car had been fired upon.

With political authority having collapsed, protesters claimed to have established control over Kiev. By Saturday morning they had secured key intersections of the city and the government district of the capital, which police officers had fled, leaving behind burned military trucks, mattresses and heaps of garbage at the positions they had occupied for months.

In Parliament opposition members began laying the groundwork for a change in leadership, electing Oleksander Turchynov, an ally of Ms. Tymoshenko, as speaker.

Underscoring the volatility of the situation and the potential power vacuum, Oleg Tyagnibok, the leader of the nationalist Svoboda party, asked the country’s interior minister and “forces on the side of the people” to patrol the capital to prevent looting.

On Friday Mr. Yanukovych and opposition leaders, with the help of France, Germany, Poland and Russia, ,had reached an accord that reduced the power of Mr. Yanukovych, an ally of Moscow. But Russia then refused to sign the accord, stirring fears that Moscow might now work to undo the deal through economic and other pressures, as it did last year to subvert a proposed trade deal between Ukraine and the European Union. But American officials said that President Vladimir V. Puton told Mr. Obama in a telephone call on Friday that he would work toward resolving the crisis.

The developments cast a shadow over the hard-fought accord reached that also mandates early presidential elections by December, a swift return to a 2004 Constitution that sharply limited the president’s powers and the establishment within 10 days of a “government of national trust.”

In a series of votes that followed the accord and reflected Parliament’s determination to make the settlement work, lawmakers moved to free Ms. Tymoshenko; grant blanket amnesty to all antigovernment protesters; and provide financial aid to the hundreds of wounded and families of the dead.

Except for a series of loud explosions on Friday night and angry chants in the protest encampment, Kiev was generally quiet with the streets largely calm on Saturday. And the authorities, although previously divided about how to handle the crisis, seemed eager to avoid more confrontations.

In Independence Square, the focal point of the protest movement, however, the mood was one of deep anger and determination, not triumph. “Get out criminal! Death to the criminal!” the crowd chanted, reaffirming what, after a week of bloody violence, has become a nonnegotiable demand for many protesters: the immediate departure of Mr. Yanukovych.

When Vitali Klitschko, one of three opposition leaderswho signed the deal to end the violence, spoke in its defense, people screamed “shame!” A coffin was then hauled on a stage in the square to remind Mr. Klitschko of the more than 70 people who died in violence on Thursday, the deadliest day of political mayhem in Ukraine since independence from the Soviet Union more than two decades ago.

The violence escalated the urgency of the crisis, which began with protests in late November after a decision by Mr. Yanukovych to spurn a trade and political deal with the European Union and tilt his nation toward Russia instead.

It was difficult to know how much of the fury voiced on Friday night in Independence Square was fiery bravado, a final cry of anger before the three-month-long protest movement winds down or the harbinger of yet more and possibly worse violence to come.

Vividly clear, however, was the wide gulf that had opened up between the opposition’s political leadership and a street movement that has radicalized and slipped far from the already tenuous control of politicians.

“We gave chances to politicians to become future ministers, presidents, but they don’t want to fulfill one condition — that the criminal go away!” he said, vowing to lead an armed attack if Mr. Yanukovych did not announce his resignation by 10 a.m. on Saturday. The crowd shouted: “Yes! Yes!”

Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, a coalition of hard-line nationalist groups, reacted defiantly to news of the settlement, drawing more cheers from the crowd.

“The agreements that were reached do not correspond to our aspirations,” he said. “Right Sector will not lay down arms. Right Sector will not lift the blockade of a single administrative building until our main demand is met — the resignation of Yanukovych.”

He added that he and his supporters were “ready to take responsibility for the further development of the revolution.” The crowd shouted: “Good! Good!”

By early afternoon, the presidential compound of brick paved pathways, beautifully landscaped in hedges, and all set in a birch forest on a bluff overlooking the Dnepr River, was filled with hundreds of people. Some outbuildings were open; men carrying ax handles and other clubs guarded the entrances to others, lest looting begin. Around noon gunshots or explosions rang out but it was unclear what had happened.

One member of the Lviv Hundred walked onto a gazebo decorated with plastic urns, removed his green military helmet and gazed out at the park and the river below.

Another pair in soot-smeared clothing and carrying baseball bats walked into an outbuilding apparently used for summer barbecues, and sat in chairs of plush blue and gold upholstery decorated in a floral print. They pulled large yellow drinking glasses from a cabinet and photographed one another on their cellphones as if saying toasts.

“We hoped for this but didn’t expect it,” said Roman Dakus, wearing a ski helmet and carrying a length of pipe, who guarding one doorway. He had been in Independence Square, known as Maidan, off and on for three months, he said. “It was very, very difficult to stay on the square in the cold at night,” he said. “But we warmed one another with our hearts and our souls.”

“This commences a new life for Ukraine,” he said, waving his pipe to take in the overrun presidential residence. “People really changed their mind-set because of these events. Before, people thought, ‘Nothing really depends on me.’ They preferred to say that and to think like that. But after this situation, they think differently. They believe in their struggle when they are all together.”

...

and

...

Ukraine crisis: Opposition asserts authority in Kiev (BBC)

22 February 2014 Last updated at 08:54 ET

Ukraine's opposition has asserted its authority over Kiev and parliament in a day of fast-paced events.

MPs have replace the parliamentary speaker and attorney general, appointed a new pro-opposition interior minister and voted to free jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko.

Police appear to have abandoned their posts across the capital.

Protesters in Kiev have walked unchallenged into the president's official and residential buildings.

President Viktor Yanukovych and opposition leaders signed a peace deal on Friday after several days of violence in which dozens of people died in a police crackdown on months of protest.

But the deal failed to end the protests and huge crowds remain in Independence Square, the Maidan.

The opposition have called for elections before 25 May, earlier than envisaged in Friday's peace deal.

The president's whereabouts are unclear - his aides say he is in Kharkhiv, close to the border with Russia.

Presidential aide Hanna Herman said he was due to give a televised address later.

A gathering of deputies from the south-east and Crimea - traditionally Russian-leaning areas - is taking place there, but Ms Herman said the president had "no intention" of attending, nor of leaving the country.

An opposition figure has announced to the protest crowds in Independence Square that the president has resigned. This has not been confirmed, but the crowds reacted with huge cheers.
'Rapid change'

Ms Tymoshenko was sentenced to seven years in prison in 2011 for abuse of power. Her supporters had always maintained this was simply Mr Yanukovych taking out his most prominent opponent, and her release has always been a key demand of the protest movement.

She is expected to be released in Kharkiv later on Saturday.

Her daughter, Yevheniya Tymoshenko, said she was thankful "to all Ukrainians, the democratic world, and the lawmakers who have just released her".

"We must go there now very quickly to ensure that nothing happens to her and to free her together," she said.

On Saturday morning as parliament met, speaker Volodymyr Rybak resigned, citing ill health. He has been replaced by Oleksandr Turchynov, an ally of Ms Tymoshenko.

Another Tymoshenko ally, Arsen Avakov, has been appointed interim interior minister. He replaces Vitaly Zakharchenko, who was sacked on Friday after being blamed for the deaths of civilians in last week's crackdown on protests.

Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition Udar party, repeated his demand for the president's immediate resignation.

The protests first erupted in late November when Mr Yanukovych rejected a landmark association and trade deal with the European Union in favour of closer ties with Russia.

On Thursday, in the worst violence since the unrest began, police opened fire on protesters who were occupying Independence Square in central Kiev. The health ministry says 77 people - both protesters and police - have been killed since Tuesday.

For a second day, funerals are being held in the square.

The BBC's Kevin Bishop in Kiev says journalists and protesters were able to enter freely the previously heavily guarded presidential complex.

The protesters have not entered the offices themselves. They said they were protecting the buildings from looting and vandalism.

"He's not here, none of his officials or anyone linked directly to the administration are here," said Ostap Kryvdyk, a protest leader, referring to the president.

Correspondents say police appear to have abandoned posts across the city, while the numbers gathered in the Maidan are growing.

Hundreds of people have also entered the grounds of the president's official residence, the Mezhyhirya, about 15km (10 miles) north of the city centre.

In a statement, the interior ministry said the police force was "at the service of the people and completely shares its aspirations for rapid changes".

"We pay homage to the dead," it added.
Leaders booed

The political pact was signed on Friday by President Yanukovych and opposition leaders after mediation by EU foreign ministers, and approved by Ukraine's parliament.

It restores the 2004 constitution - reducing the powers of the presidency - and says a unity government will be formed and elections held by the end of the year.

All but one of the 387 MPs present voted in favour, including dozens of MPs from Mr Yanukovych's own Party of Regions.

The deal has been met with scepticism by some of the thousands of protesters who remain in the square. Opposition leaders who signed it were booed and called traitors.

The US and Russian presidents have agreed that the deal needs to be swiftly implemented, officials say.

Russia's Vladimir Putin told Barack Obama in a telephone conversation on Friday that Russia wanted to be part of the implementation process, a US state department spokesperson said.

Why a new Ukraine is the Kremlin's worst nightmare

The domino effect of democracy on Russia's border threatens the entire system Putin has built since 2000 - and he will not let it go lightly

Andrew Wilson
Sunday 23 February 2014



The details still need to be decided, but the revolutionaries have won in Ukraine. Some elements of the old regime may survive, but that is precisely why the protesters on the “Maidan” (Kiev’s main square) don’t trust the mainstream politicians who claim to be negotiating on their behalf.

The politicians in suits can do the donkey work – writing a new constitution to improve on the old one they have just restored, and trying to save the collapsing economy. But the Maidan leaders in the fatigues and helmets will set the agenda on justice – dismantling the militia and reworking the corrupt legal system, so that the many guilty end up behind bars. And there are credible reports that the snipers who killed more than 70 on Thursday were based in the government buildings that are already being occupied by protesters combing for evidence. Once the world knows who gave the deadly orders, justice will decapitate the old regime. And the “official” opposition will be radicalised by the need to compete with the moral authority of the Maidan.

All of which is the Kremlin’s worst nightmare. When the protests started back in November they were about a trade deal with the EU. Russia was ecstatic that it had persuaded Ukraine to walk away from that deal, and was picking off the other states in the EU’s “Eastern Partnership” programme (Armenia caved in September, Georgia and Moldova were expected to come under enormous pressure in 2014). Russia hoped to drag them into its alternative Eurasian Union instead, which is due to be launched in January 2015.

But this is 10 times worse than Brussels expanding its bureaucracy to Russia’s borders. A real democracy in Ukraine is an existential threat to the entire system that Vladimir Putin has built since 2000. Ironically because Putin is right – most Russians regard Ukraine as a kin state, or not really a different state at all. They are used to stepping in tandem; so if something changes in Ukraine, why not in Russia too? And now the dominoes might fall in the other direction. Other Maidans might appear in other neighbouring states – maybe first in Moldova where the Russia-backed Communist Party was hoping to return to power in elections due in November.

Putin marginalised his own protest movement after the last Russian election cycle. He does not want to see that flare up again. So far, the Russian opposition has been quiet. Few have supported the Ukrainian Maidan, even fewer sound inspired to copy it – for now. But Putin will need to come up with something more convincing than the scattergun propaganda the Russian media has pumped out to date.

None of the favourite Russian myths – the protesters are all crazy nationalists, which is why they are also backed by the Americans, the young guys throwing rocks are really only interested in promoting gay rights – make much sense in the long run.

So the new government in Ukraine, however it’s made up, will be given the briefest of ritualistic honeymoons before Russia uses every instrument at its disposal to try to make it fail. Unfortunately, Russia holds most of the economic cards. Ukraine’s coffers are almost empty, and the old guard is busy looting what is left. It has less than $18bn (£10.9bn) in hard currency reserves, its currency is dropping and immediate debt-repayment needs are more than $10bn.

Russia tied Ukraine to a $15bn bailout deal in December, which is parcelled out by the month to maximise leverage, and periodically suspended whenever the opposition looked like getting the upper hand. But Russia’s real aim was to provide just enough money to support the old semi-authoritarian system (helping Viktor Yanukovych pay the police) and keep Ukrainian society post-Soviet, that is, still dependent on government. So Ukraine’s new leaders will have to be honest and say their aim is to dismantle both. They cannot declare victory now, but will have to plead for popular support during what will be two or three difficult years.

And if the West is serious about an alternative deal, Ukraine needs a lot of money fast. Fortunately, the West would no longer be throwing it down the black hole created by the old regime. Instead the money would support the kind of kamikaze leader Ukraine has never had in the past. Politicians were reluctant to make difficult choices and lose elections, because they’d never get back into power. Now Russia and the old regime will back any populist who promises to keep government subsidies flowing; but an honest kamikaze might just win the long-term credit and at least write his place in the history books.

Russia has talked a lot about its “soft power” in recent years. It isn’t particularly soft. The new Ukraine will pay more for gas, which will be regularly cut off for “technical reasons”. Russia’s crazy “food safety” agency will declare that everything that comes out of Ukraine is radioactive. Ukrainian migrant workers will be sent home now they have finished helping to rebuild Sochi.

Worst of all, Russia will work hard to try to re-corrupt the political system. The Kremlin used to boast that it could exploit Ukraine’s old-style “democracy” – meaning that, just like Yanukovych, they could launch their own puppet parties and buy agents of influence in the honest ones. The Ukrainian Front, a bizarre alliance of hooligans and bikers with a vaguely pan-Slavist ideology that appeared in the eastern city of Kharkiv two weeks ago, was backed by the Russians. Skinheads and sportsmen with the money to spend on propaganda are not a natural combination. Similar groups may pop up in Crimea and elsewhere, where the last elements of the old regime may try and regroup.

But Russia’s ultimate problem is the same as Yanukovych faced. The Kremlin simply can’t understand that protesters would be motivated by ideology rather than by money or foreign support. The Russians were good at manipulating the old system, but dealing with real revolutionaries is a different matter. Ukraine is starting a very bumpy ride.

More Western propaganda.

Ukraine did have a working democracy. Before they elected their recent president they had one from the other party.

Svoboda, who is the leader of a large (about 1/3) group of protesters who believe Ukraine is being ran by Jewish-Russian mafia members. He also led a march a few months ago for a Nazi war contributor. Hopefully Eastern Ukraine fights back and a solid middle ground is formed between the two regions that doesn't involve authoritative Presidents.

But the article is right about Putin not wanting this to happen. Ukraine, if the West wins, could possibly end up being a NATO nation which would freak out Russia and take away one of their major bases in the Black sea.

Russia calls Ukraine's new government 'gun-toting mutineers'



Sucks for the Russian overlords to have the Ukrainian peasants rise up against them, doesn't it?

I figure you have me on ignore or you don't want to have an actual conversation about this situation, but I'll just post because this topic interests me.

I don't think the "gun toting mutineers" will be in power that long. Eastern Ukraine will strike back within the next few years. While Germany and France would like to expand their global powers, I don't think they can take another net loss. I suppose they'll give Ukraine some good words for a bit.

The ex-PM they recently released is just as corrupt and polarizing as the rightful president. I just hope that the other 2 parties in this revolution quickly denounce right sector soon though. Maybe something good can come of this.

Ukraine's new deputy Prime Minister is a Neo-Nazi.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abraham-h-foxman/in-ukraine-new-government_b_4875833.html

Welp. At least we got rid of a democratically elected president and replaced him with a host of people, some of which are neo-nazis. But hey, we're the good guys here.

Following Obama's response to Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008, Palin said that Ukraine would be next. Foreign Policy magazine said it was 'extremely far-fetched' scenario that Russia would invade Ukraine.

Well, are they now eating a gigantic plate of crow? Will they finally admit that she was 1000% correct?

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/10/22/russia_might_invade_ukraine_if_obama_wins_palin_warns

somebody tell anarch i'm not trying to make an account just to read one damn article. he has me on ignore.


anyway,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26388057

Could Russia intervene militarily in Crimea to safeguard its strategic interests? Or, to put the question a different way, has Russia already intervened?

Nobody yet knows the identities of the armed men who seized control of Simferopol airport.

But their equipment, their vehicles and their behaviour all signal that this is a trained military unit, not a rag-tag group of pro-Russian loyalists.

"These men look like a formed and organised body of troops. They appear to be disciplined, confident and uniformly dressed and equipped," says Brigadier Ben Barry, a land warfare expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

Continue reading the main story
Crimea

Autonomous republic within Ukraine
Transferred from Russia in 1954
Ethnic Russians - 58.5%
Ethnic Ukrainians - 24.4%
Crimean Tatars - 12.1%
Source: Ukraine census 2001

What is so dangerous about Crimea?
Ukraine's next flashpoint?
Crimea profile
"Irregular militia may obtain bits of official kit but they tend to look like a military jumble sale."

All we know is that what looks to be a military unit has secured the airport in Simferopol, the Crimean regional capital.

This comes against a background of deepening tensions, with the Russians working through a predictable play-book of threats and menaces aimed at the new interim authorities in Ukraine.

Combat aircraft in areas bordering Ukraine are on alert. Snap military exercises have been held to demonstrate the readiness of Russian forces.

Misleading comparisons
There have been economic threats too, for example to increase customs duties at the two countries' border along with widespread rhetoric warning of the threats to Russian minorities, orthodox religious shrines and so on.

An unidentified armed man patrols a square in front of the airport in Simferopol
Nobody yet knows who the armed men at Simferopol airport are
So far, it looks much like the preliminaries to the Russian assault on Georgia back in 2008.

Then, of course, the Georgian military did the Russians the favour of moving first into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia sparking a furious Russian response.

But comparisons can be misleading.

Georgia was a small country that had deeply irritated Moscow and one that could do little to respond against Russia's overwhelming military might.

Many experts believe a similar full-scale Russian intervention in Ukraine is unlikely.

Given the size of Ukraine and the divisions within its population, it would simply saddle Russia with involvement in what might rapidly become a bitter civil war.

Russian pressure at the moment serves a different goal.

Ukraine is heading towards bankruptcy. It needs outside funding. Moscow knows that Western financial institutions must play some kind of role.

Its concern is to underline in as clear terms as possible that any future Ukrainian government should tilt as much towards Moscow as it does to the EU.

Russia's bottom line is that Kiev should resist any temptation to draw towards Nato.

________________

palins prediction? i'm glad she isn't involved in actual foreign policy.

do her, and people on this board even KNOW the reasoning behind the Georgia-Russia War in 2008? or do all you see is "big ole russia bullying a smaller country".

once again, people need to use some facts before arguing anything. palin wasn't right about jack squat.

All I know is this ..... Putin is asking is Parliment for permission to enter Ukraine with military forces to "stabilize the situation", and "help the people there". However, I have this feeling that once Russian troops are there, they will never leave ....... and any UN resolution protesting their presence, or requiring them to leave, will die a veto death.

I see little good that can come in this situation. I do not envy Obama, because this one is really fraught with significant danger.

Quote:

---

Lawmakers allow Putin to use military in Ukraine

http://t.news.msn.com/world/lawmakers-allow-putin-to-use-military-in-ukraine

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Russia's parliament granted President Vladimir Putin permission to use the country's military in Ukraine and also recommended Saturday that Moscow's ambassador be recalled from Washington over comments made by President Barack Obama.


The unanimous vote in an emergency session formalized what Ukrainian officials described as an invasion of Russian troops in the strategic region of Crimea. With pro-Russian protests breaking out in other parts of Ukraine, Moscow now could send its military elsewhere in Ukraine.

"I'm submitting a request for using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine pending the normalization of the socio-political situation in that country," Putin said before the vote.

Putin's call came as pro-Russian demonstrations broke out in Ukraine's Russian-speaking east, where protesters raised Russian flags and beat up supporters of the new Ukrainian government.

Russia's move sharply raised the stakes in the conflict following the ouster of Ukraine's pro-Russian president last week by a protest movement aimed at turning Ukraine toward the European Union and away from Russia. Ukraine has accused Russia of a "military invasion and occupation" — a claim that brought an alarming new dimension to the crisis, and raised fears that Moscow is moving to intervene on the strategic peninsula where Russia's Black Sea fleet is based.

President Barack Obama warned Moscow on Friday "there will be costs" if Russia intervenes militarily. In Saturday's parliamentary session in Moscow, one Russian legislator said Obama had crossed a "red line" and the upper house recommended the Russian ambassador in Washington be recalled. It will be up to Putin to decide whether that happens.

In Crimea, the pro-Russian prime minister who took office after gunmen seized the regional Parliament claimed control of the military and police there and asked Putin for help in keeping peace, sharpening the discord between the two neighboring Slavic countries.

Ukraine's acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov, said the election of the election of Sergei Aksyonov as prime minister of Crimea was invalid.

It was the latest escalation following the ouster of Ukraine's pro-Russian president last week by a protest movement aimed at turning Ukraine toward the European Union and away from Russia.

Ukraine's population is divided in loyalties between Russia and Europe, with much of western Ukraine advocating closer ties with the European Union while eastern and southern regions look to Russia for support. Crimea, a semi-autonomous region of Ukraine, is mainly Russian-speaking.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk opened a Cabinet meeting in the capital, Kiev, by calling on Russia not to provoke discord in Crimea.

"We call on the government and authorities of Russia to recall their forces, and to return them to their stations," Yatsenyuk was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency. "Russian partners, stop provoking civil and military resistance in Ukraine."

---

Well this doesn't look good....Here we go again......There is a very grave danger this who thing could get out of hand in a hurry....I just hope the US stays out of this one...the last thing we need is to get involved in this.

I think it's important to keep in mind the majority of Ukraine is pro-Russia, so it's not like the majority wouldn't support it.

http://rt.com/news/russia-crimea-sieze-gunmen-344/

The President of Crimea is saying that Kiev militants are trying to take over a Crimea building.

I just hope the imports of chicken kiev doesn't dry up. I'd miss that.

Those Ukrainians sure do make good chicken.

we've been the world police for decades, thats been us for ever now, it will never change. ever.

like who?

you keep saying he isn't a leader? how?

man somebody tell this dude to take me off ignore.

Putin gets parliament permission:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/01/...estoring-peace/

it'll be the same thing they did with Georgia.

protecting the people that supports Russia.

What exactly should he do? Send more troops to fight another needless proxy war?

We could spend our manpower, time, effort, and energy doing more productive things at home.

I think we're a little early in the process for that.

Firstly my understanding is that they're calling for new elections. If that's the case, there really isn't a new government installed to deal with is there?

And what do we know about those who will be in charge? I think you first have to know with who you're dealing with and what it is exactly they stand for before you make any such actions.

If history has taught us anything, it may be that we should be more careful about who we align ourselves with.

JMHO

Posturing for starters , I would have called home our Ambassador .. There is some kind of old treaty ( 1937 I think ) that allows us two ships in the Black see #2 .. Something !

Obama reminds me of Neville Chamberlain ..

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-over-ukraines-crimea-region-200052097.html

it's already done.


honestly, like as a straight up man, i wish we could go just go to war with russia so when can finally end this dick measuring contest once and for all.

look at the pics in that link. the only advantage man to man would be that i hate cold weather and would freeze my balls off. thats it.

now the smart part of me.....just leave it alone. russia did the same thing with a pro-russia province in georgia. its not worth getting involved as far as military actions go.

Some of you youngin's are going to have to deal with Russia sooner or latter .. Spent time around them ( to much ) and they are ( as a whole ) an aggressive people ( my lowly opinion ) ..

they are. they rarely smile. everything is depressing with them. my wife(german) has some russian friends. man...i wanna shoot myself when they came over.


i just think, the crap with North Korea is whatever, they've been running their mouths for decades. but the threat with russia is still very much real.