DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum T.J. Ward

A lot of hot wind. I don't see the plan.

But whatever, as long as you guys are happy.

I approve your message. Nicely said.

I dunno, I think it's much simpler than that. They got rid of Ward and DQ because they didn't fit the system. I suppose you can call that a plan, but it's really much simpler than that.

Pettine won't use Ward the same way that Horton did. Ward won't be playing up near the LoS as much in Pettine's D, which gets him away from what he does best. So we let him walk.

DQ wasn't as effective in a 3-4 alignment. We all know this, and yet we still whine and moan that he wasn't brought back.


I have to say that I'm more disappointed that we didn't bring in a #2 CB and/or a guard. We need both, but just one of those would've made me much happier. The better guards all got snapped up pretty quick (did any of them make it past their first team visits?). CB, we probably could've been more aggressive.

Perhaps we had less urgency because of the volume of draft picks. If that's the case, I hope we are aggressive in trading up into the 2nd and 3rd rounds to get some guys that can compete for starting positions. I don't think we need to take 10 guys in this draft.

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Pettine won't use Ward the same way that Horton did. Ward won't be playing up near the LoS as much in Pettine's D, which gets him away from what he does best. So we let him walk.

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But in an interview with Whitner, he said the defense has plans for him to do this very thing.

I agree with everything except the coaching staff changes. And I'll tell you my reason.

The FO didn't give the staff much to work with. Then they took the RB away. That I don't mind since he's not that great (TRich) but they replaced him with an over the hill guy and expected great results. If you take a tool away, you need to replace it with one that works better or as well. If you replace it with a lesser tool, expect a drop in production.

Now, having said that, The owner wants results. I don't blame him, He spent a billion bucks on this team and he should demand excellence.

So, when you buy something (a business) and it's under performing you have only a few choices. Stay the course with tweaks or rip it apart and get new people that you believe in. He's apparently done that.

So now we wait and see.

I may not like the Chud move, But the fact is, bad players or not, he didn't stem the stupid losses or the collapses by the Defense.

The plan is what they said it was all along.

We will use free agency to fill holes, but not necessarily to build the team long term. We will examine playes roles and "fit" within the team and use that, but just money, to determine whether or not they fit.

They decided that DQ wasn't a fit, and let him walk. They did so before they had to pay him a massive bonus, one that was more than his worth to the team. They planned to bring in a better fit in Dansby, even though he is an older player. I think that is a massive upgrade. Dansby gits the 3-4. DQ does not.

They let Ward walk, really without much protest. They had a plan to bring in Whitner as a replacement. They felt that he was a better fit.

Both of these guys are strong leaders as well. Often a single player can change the direction of a unit on a team just by virtue of his leadership. We gained 2 strong, vocal leaders on day 1.

We then added Ben Tate, who pretty much universally has lauded as a great fit. I like the fact that we picked up a high quality guy who can take it the distance on any play, and did so for a very reasonable price. I have to laugh, because last season, when it was said that the Browns would pursue Tate in the coming off-season, almost everyone was super excited about the possibility. I said that I didn't want to pay too much for a RB, because often they aren't worth a huge deal. We got him at a price I am thrilled with. It was a smart move. He also has been extremely vocal about his excitement in being here. That seems to be a theme with these guys we signed, They see a challenge, and have taken it up as their own. They didn't come here to lose. Will they make the difference? I can't say 100% ..... but I like the way they are approaching things so far.

We also added a slot receiver, and one who has premiere quickness and agility. He has huge YAC numbers, better than any other receiver in the NFL. It was a small sample size last year, but he seems to break defenders down very well. He also wanted to come here.

We then added a couple of pieces .... a backup TE and a special teams CB.

Overall, we added 3 starters, 1 key substitute, and 1 primary backup. That's a huge haul in free agency. We spent, but didn't spend every last penny. We saved cap space for re-signing key players like Haden, Cameron, and others. We added vocal leaders to the team. WE replaced guys who were in key positions on a losing team, with guys who have seen and been part of turning a team around. That can be so important. They have done it, and know that it can be done. Whitner went to a Niners team that had lost for many years before he got there. Dansby went back to Arizona last year, a team that had struggled since Warner retired, and saw it reborn, winning 10 games. That is somewhat impressive, but look at the division in which they played. Seattle, San Francisco, and St Louis.St Louis would have probably been a 10 win team in our division. Arizona probably would have won 12 games in our division. That's a damn good division, yet the Cardinals turned their fortunes around anyway. That experience is really important in my opinion. If I have a bad team, then I want a few players who have been part of turning around another bad team. I think that we have that in Whitner and Dansby. These are 2 veterans who can tell other players that it can be done, if they all work hard, because they have done it. I really think that was a missing piece of this team.

We also have 10 draft picks coming up. 3 of those are thanks to shrewd trades by Banner. We have some major holes to fill, but draft picks to fill those holes. I would say that our primary holes are QB, WR2, ILB, G, and CB2. Secondary needs are RB2, FS, C, and G2. We should be able to address the top 5 needs in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft. This draft is very deep. (from everything I have read) We didn't blow all of our free cash in free agency, when we have the tools to reshape a significant part of the roster with the draft. Again, we need to start plugging in more draft picks, because we are going to have to start re-signing players this year (Mack) and next.

I fully expect that we will sign 3 or 3 additional players ..... maybe 1 or 2 who are currently on other rosters right now. We have looked at a few players who no one else has signed yet, and haven't made huge offers. We took a look at Carrington, and McQuistan, and Moats, and Berry. These are probably fall back type players, based on what they do in the draft. I doubt that we offer any of them huge deals, and it seems like none of them are finding huge deals in free agency. McQuistan might be a backup swing type to replace Cousins, but that's about it. Frankly I wish that we would have signed a Guard in free agency, but we can't sign everyone, and in fact, we can't even get everyone to visit.

I am content with what Farmer has done so far. He plugged gaping holes. I want to see what he does with the draft, and the period after the draft to the opening of the season, where he can add players who are released by other teams, and also make trades.

I think that we, as fans, want a perfect team. and there are very few of those, It takes a perfect storm to even afford such a thing. The Seahawks are probably about as close as can be, and they hit on a ton of late round picks, and found their QB in the 3rd round, and watched him lead the team to a Super Bowl win in his 2nd season. That is rare. Very rare.

If we get the QB right, then we'll look better in a lot of positions. That is Farmer's primary concern. We need to also land a couple of impact players in the draft, preferably (to me) a CB and an ILB. I think that we can find a WR2, given the depth available. If we do that, then I will be ecstatic. Will we still need a Guard? Yep. However, maybe we find one in the period after the draft. Maybe we draft a guy. We have so much flexibility right now. Frankly, I like what Farmer has done so far, and want to see how the whole picture looks when it is done. Right now we are looking at a painting in its sketch stage. The draft will add the large swaths of color, and some details, and the period after the draft will add all of the small details that make a painting look incredible.

I know that you know where we are in the process, as does DJ. No one wins a Super Bowl in free agency. Hell, the Broncos signed Peyton Manning, and that didn't win them a Super Bowl. If we draft well, we'll succeed long term. If not, then we'll fail.

For a guy who complains about others' lack of football discussion on the board...I say you get out what you put in.

Happy? Whatever.

What do you want me to reply to? You didn't present a plan.

How are they going to build the team? Inside out? Outside in? Randomly? Is QB the number one spot? How are they going to address the OL? Are we going to be a speedy team? A power team? A finesse team? Are we going to be more brains than brawn or vice versa? Do they want a young team? A veteran team? An mixed bag?

I don't know what the heck their plan is? And you didn't help me understand their plan any more than what I knew before.

So yeah, whatever.

Look................I am NOT saying they don't have a plan. I just don't see what it is they are doing.

And I am extremely concerned about the offensive line. We need more athletic blockers and we did absolutely nothing to improve that. We did sign a couple of questionable skill guys, though. Of course, the masses love that, just like how they loved the TRich and Weeden draft. They loved the Leon pick. They loved the K2 pick.

Hopefully, the new guys will have a great draft. And all of this will be forgotten. But, how much you wanna bet that there is a very good chance of people complaining about our poor run blocking again next year? And there is also a chance that we are going to hear how we need a franchise qb.

LOL..............it never ends........

Probably like most teams we will see those questions answered as the season enfolds.

We will see the characteristics that the plan dictates usually from drafted players. Most teams wish to build through the draft and want some veteran leadership. We are not a team ready to win and bolster our roster with as many FA players as we can to push the envelope in the short window we have. I think we are a team that is pretty confident that we have at least a Bridge QB in Hoyer...so far it seems like the case. I am 99% sure we have a QB that we like and will be going for him. When I don't know.

We sort of know the O we are looking to run. I think FA didn't have the speed at the OL position that we covet. This is one of the overall top speed I've ever seen in an OL class. So I expect us to busy there.

The defense I'll understand more after I see it.

Vers sometimes you are over skeptical with the new guys...then you believe in their plan usually right when we are getting rid of them sad but true. I think you are miss understood that way. You are not a trusting guy but once you buy in. You are loyal.

The only thing about this that I don't understand is that Banner although had some good ideas and plans was ruining this team and its reputation with the NFL coaches and players. But I know you're going to like Pettine...again a guy who was here in NY and we get so much press here - my goodness we get farts reported and what kind of beans were involved...lol

He is your kind of coach. I do think we back doored into it but we are back on track and a team of destiny. Once we get through this year and the players believe 100% we will be there.

jmho

The depth got better directly at RB, WR, and TE due to new starters where we had backups who were starting.

The improved depth at ILB and SS occurred because we got better starters than the ones we let walk...that allowes backups like Poyer, Bademosi et al to REMAIN as backups and not get thrust into starting roles.

DQ was awful. Dansby allows us to NOT have to start ILB3. Trufant is a serviceable dime guy and STer...no more Chris Owens types at CB-last.

We filled holes that existing on our roster BEFORE DQ and Ward walked.

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They better NAIL the draft if that's their plan...good luck with that banking on 5+ rookie starters

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At what 5+ positions do you say we need new starters? Interesting that we will get to choose 5 of the top 96 players in the draft...provided we don't get stupid and package those valuable picks to move up.

I like much of what we did, I don't think that Trufant is anything but a special teams guy.

I read something about Trufant's coverage, and it was far less than stellar ..... something like he allowed almost every pass attempt against him last year to be completed. I think that he's a special teams guy, and that's about it.

That's a bunch of semantics BS and I hope you at least know it...

We still have the same backups we had during last season at those spots, EXACTLY the same. No depth improved. Dansby over DQ doesn't make Robertson a better ILB2 or Carder a better ILB3, they're still the same. What kind of logic is that, lol?

What you're saying is "at best" that we filled a need that was created because we let someone else walk, but those players NEVER were starters to begin with....maybe you're fooling yourself with this virtual depth chart ping pong to make yourself feel better about it, but certainly not me.
The depth at said positions is the SAME as it was at the beginning, during and end of the 2013 season...that's pretty much a fact...and your twisting of words won't change that.

j/c:

I can see this is going nowhere. A lot of guys who hated Banner are now automatically loving Farmer. Sound logic.

tab----------I like Pettine's toughness. No doubt. But, I prefer Banner's brains over Farmer's. The guy has sounded like an idiot thus far. To be fair, it may all be a smokescreen, but I sure as hell hope he doesn't believe the nonsense he is spewing.

I am not saying I am right. I am not saying what we have done thus far dooms us. I am saying I don't see the plan. We should have addressed the OL in free agency. We need more athletic blockers, there were several available, and yet we did not sign one of them. Instead, we threw big money at a WR who has done nothing and a RB who is always hurt. Those of you who know me know that I have never approved of that strategy.

Pinky, Grecco, and Schwartz in a zone blocking scheme? Ouch. That sounds like lack of planning rather than sound planning. We'll see.

Of course, it will be like everything else. Only a couple of us are complaining about this. Just watch...........during the season.......all kinds of posters will come out saying we should have addressed the OL. Just like all the people who never liked TRich or Weeden. LOL

Oh, that reminds me of the guy who stalks me. What say you, Daman? Should the Browns have addressed the OL in FA or is the "plan" sound?

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----I like Pettine's toughness. No doubt. But, I prefer Banner's brains over Farmer's. The guy has sounded like an idiot thus far. To be fair, it may all be a smokescreen, but I sure as hell hope he doesn't believe the nonsense he is spewing.

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I just want to add this about that. It's not really fair to judge Farmer vs. Banner. That is comparing the GM to the CEO. Two totally different positions and responsibilities. Or at least they're supposed to be. Unless we're comparing Farmer the GM to Banner the GM (which he was never supposed to be) it's and unfair comparison.

In a way, that's how crazy, mixed up the "consensus" was in my opinion. Here we're comparing the new GM to the old CEO as a logical sequence. But it's not.

To be honest, I think Banner made himself the face of the franchise. He spoke for everybody.

I doubt very much Farmer will try to fill that role. I doubt the team wants him to do that. I think this time around that duty will fall to the HC with infrequent and brief pressers from Farmer and the team Pres. and now and then from Jimmy.

Of course, I liked and will miss the shrewdness of Banner in how he spoke on whatever topic he had to address. He chose his words very carefully and spoke succinctly.

Farmer is in the middle of FA and heading into the draft. As you mentioned his comments and statements my be smokescreens and I believe that's exactly what it is at this point.



I'm not satisfied with "the plan" thus far either. Maybe they'll draft a QB at #4 and then 9 OL.

Regime after regime has taken a token glance at our OL like they don't see the importance in it. That's one of the reoccurring mistakes our FO, whomever they've been, has made over the years. Sure, Savage drafted Joe but even he admitted Joe was the safest pick in the draft. Mangini drafted Mack, too high I thought, but he turned out very well. Where they all miss the boat is at RT and both guard spots. Savage did bring in some FA help at times and signed Stieny but nothing was ever done to consistently keep building on that.

Now these guys seemingly ignore the OL once again. Pinky or Grecco goes down and we'll be dog paddling just to stay afloat.

Maybe this draft is deep in athletic OL. I don't know. But maybe it is and they have enough of those players targeted that they're certain they can get one or two of them. We do have some ammo to move up in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds.

I gotta tell ya. Most years I think I can figure out their plan well enough to lay it out and make sense of it. Of course, in the end I'm always proven wrong at nearly every step. This year I can't begin to figure them out. Maybe that's a good thing.

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Now these guys seemingly ignore the OL once again. Pinky or Grecco goes down and we'll be dog paddling just to stay afloat.

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Do you really think either of those guys are zone blocking guards? Are both of the agile?

Man, it was a pressing need. A huge need!!!! We ignored it, even though there were at least three zone blocking guards available. Instead, we concentrate on a WR who hasn't done squat in the NFL and a backup RB who is often injured.

I am not impressed.

A difference of opinion.

Glad you are happy. Done arguing about it for now.

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Do you really think either of those guys are zone blocking guards? Are both of the agile?

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No they aren't, which makes me think we had two ways to go. Change the players or change the scheme.

It is a lot to ask to suddenly, in one offseason, to change out both guards for players of the skill set to do an average or better job as zone blocking guards which makes me think Shanny is going to have to fudge his scheme a bit to fit the players he has to work with. I don't expect to see a full-fledged zone blocking OL in 2014. We just won't have the guards to do that.

I'm certain Shanny had plenty of opportunity to speak-up and petition for guards heading into FA. He probably did and also has probably evaluated those players before. It makes me think that he's accepted what the team can and cannot do this off season and is working on a way to tweak his offense to fit his players.

Of course that would be in a perfect world. But I just can't imagine a scenario in which he's screaming for zone blocking guards and is being told to shut up.

I have a question for those who are upset that we signed Dansby and let DQ go ..... and say that we didn;t sign another ILB to replace Robertson ......

Who else did you want us to sign at ILB?

Moats? He is still available. Who knows what his contract demands were? Also, how good is Moats? He is listed as an OLB for the Bills. Cam he play inside? Last year was his high in tackles, with 54, and he had 1 pass defensed. He forced no fumbles, had no sacks, intercepted no passes.

Who else was available at ILB that we could have signed? We signed one starter, and I am sure that we will address the ILB position in the draft. We may, and probably will, even address it twice.

Free agency is for filling holes, not for building a team. We filled holes with talent and leadership. I think that is every bit as important. We have 10 draft picks, thanks to savvy trades by Banner, and can fill holes in the draft.

As I said earlier, there are 4 stages to the off-season, and we are only in the 1st (and most expensive) stage. There is plenty of action yet to come, The 1st week of free agency is like the opening drive of a game .... scripted, with certain goals ...... trying to set a tone ...... but it's not the whole game, and you don't necessarily win or lose the game there.

I could be wrong, but I thought that Greco was considered to be a good fit for this scheme. Isn't he more of an athletic/technique guy than a power mauler? Those are the guys we're looking for, right?

Honest question, someone correct me if I'm wrong. The way I see it, we only need to find 1 guard (RG). Greco at LG will be just as good, if not better with the new scheme.

Greco is not a mauler.

He does have good feet and can move well - he is highly football intelligent.

Need? No not to replace he is there. But what we want to do - at least putting myself in the OL coach's place. Is I got a guy...now lets see if we can upgrade on him and I would campaign hard for guys in the draft that are on my list...from Overall #4 pick all the way to our last.

IN my eyes we have 5 starters...Joe T, Greco, Mack, Pinkston, Schwartz - now our task regarding OL is to upgrade or get prospects who can develop and become upgrades.

This is the fastest group of OL I have seen in a draft up to date. I know the thought out there might be - who cares what a big fatty runs in the 40. Its not just that - the 10 yard speeds are fast as well. Also for me when I see 40 speed in an OLman that indicates to me Athleticism - Also I've always been a believer in MASS x Speed = POWER! I think we can make some picks from 4th - 7th rounds that could develop into Upgrades on all our interior OLmen. OT for the most part you got to take them early. I include Mack cause for my thought process I am counting on him being here ONE MORE SEASON...we sign him long term - Fantastic. But counting on him to be here past 2014. Best to plan ahead.

jmho

Thanks for your input on this ddub.

I see things exactly as you do about the OL.

I wanted to jump in on it, but didn't want to sound like I had a mob mentality against the new bunch in charge here. You have a way of making your point without doing that.



So my best response would be to agree with you 100% and leave it at that!

I kind of see it the way you do Tab but somewhat different.

I look at guys like Jerry Rice who had a slow 40 time, but very good feet. I know it's a WR but I believe the point is the same. Straight line speed isn't a clear indicator of how well a guys lateral movement is.

Other than that I agree with you.

Straight line speed isn't a clear indicator of how well a guys lateral movement is.

Just for the record...I stated that its an Indicator (most times than not) of Athleticism.

I still look for technique. Burst out of the stance. G-pulls, Trap-pulls, Skip pulls. Scoop steps. angles, leverage, knee bend, etc. What I'm saying if I'm building an OL for an Outside zone blocking scheme and it won't be done in ONE YEAR. Hoping that all involved FO n fans understand got to make do with what we got and BUILD TOWARDS IT. I'm locking on lets say 5 guys who fill my needs in the above area...but I will end up taking the guy with the most speed. Short Shuttle, 10 yard and 40 as a general rule. Also noting that this draft has the numbers in the speed area and to evaluate their skill set.

Its a good year to add youth to the OL for an Outside Zone blocking Scheme.

jmho

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Vers. You're transparent and you love to be controversial. It appears that much of your thought process is dictated by what YOU are construing to be Farmers disinterest in your #1 QB in Teddy B. You went soured after hearing his talk of QB's and Banner was history. You've said it yourself.

You guys freak out when we don't go landing multiple FA's every single year. Could we do it with our Cap Space? Sure. But we DO NOT NEED TO.

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So, you are saying I am making up the concern about our guards because I don't believe Farmer will draft Teddy?

Nice post, bro.

I really hope we don't change the scheme. I love zone blocking schemes. Brains, technique, and cohesion over brawn. I wonder if you are right? That is something I hadn't even considered. Nice job of bringing something new to the table, other than "you just hate the FO."

An aside: A couple of you mentioned Grecco's feet. I think he could probably play RG in a zone blocking scheme, but I wonder if he has the agility to play LG in that scheme.