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The debate has already started in the VaTec thread but instead of derailing that one I figured I'd start this . I am adamantly opposed to gun control.
Campus killings may restart gun violence debate By Matthew Bigg
Mon Apr 16, 3:10 PM ET
ATLANTA (Reuters) - The killings at Virginia Tech university on Monday will stir fresh U.S. debate over gun control and what drives people to go on shooting rampages through schools and colleges.
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The killer's identity and motive were not immediately known, but as the death toll rose, it became the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history, the latest in a string of spree killings.
It was the worst since Charles Whitman went to the top of a tower at the University of Texas on August 1, 1966, and opened fire. He killed 15 people, including his mother and wife the night before, and wounded 31 others.
Last October, a gunman shot 10 Amish girls at a one-room schoolhouse in Pennsylvania, killing five before turning the gun on himself.
In April 1999, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, armed with guns and homemade bombs, killed 12 fellow students and a teacher at Columbine High School in Colorado in a long-planned spree.
School shootings have prompted changes to school safety rules and sparked debate over the availability of guns.
They also have prompted an outpouring of academic studies on the causes of stress, depression and violence in young people and novels such as the award-winning "We Need to Talk About Kevin" by Lionel Shriver, about a school massacre.
People who commit killings in schools and colleges are sometimes motivated by a specific grievance against that institution or people within it, said Nadine Kaslow, a professor and chief psychologist at Emory School of Medicine.
They are sometimes mentally ill and may equally be reacting to a trauma, either real or imagined, that they have suffered, and decide to take that trauma out on everyone else, Kaslow said in an interview.
"Some of these people -- I don't want to use the word 'snap' -- but they just go over the edge. All the rest of us have a conscience that says: 'don't do this,"' she said stressing she was new to the Virginia Tech case.
The way in which the media play up cases such as Columbine may make the idea of committing such a crime to achieve notoriety attractive to certain individuals, she said to explain why such killings appear more prevalent in the United States than in other Western countries.
GUN CONTROL?
Advocates of wider gun controls said the availability of guns in the United States had made it easier for people to commit murder everywhere, including in schools and colleges.
"What have we done as a nation in the 8 years since Columbine about this problem? We compound the trade of the day by our failure to deal with the proliferation of guns in our country," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.
Helmke said that since Columbine, which happened eight years ago this week, there had been no new legislation on control of guns and he said a ban on assault weapons was allowed to expire in September 2004.
Advocates of gun freedom such as the National Rifle Association argue that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the U.S. constitution and dispute efforts to link the incidence of gun crime with access to firearms.
Many recent studies have looked at student-on-student violence and its causes and after Columbine intense scrutiny focused on the lives and backgrounds of the two gunmen, who committed suicide.
It also focused on school bullying, social cliques and the potential effects of the music they listened to and the video games they played. Experts also looked for ways to spot warning signs of violence.
Kaslow said that violence in U.S. schools was a bigger problem than was reported because of the high incidence of bullying, hitting and sexual offenses. Shootings were just an extreme form of that violence, she said.
"We are bombarded with violent images in our culture. We have a culture of violence here (in the United States). Kids will go home and watch this on TV," she said.
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It's not the gun that kills, it's the person who pulls the trigger. I know tons of people who have guns and they're not wackos.
And when I get older I plan to buy a gun myself, mainly for sport, but if the time comes when I need to protect myself, I will.
Oh god, I just flipped to MSNBC and they're talking about videogames and Goldeneye on N64...here we go again......
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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Legend
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If you want to see real shooting, try to take the guns.
You will have the good guys behind bars and the bad guys will still have their guns.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Well... If we ALL wore guns this guy would have been dead after he shot the first person. I can make a simple gun from stuff at a hardware store, gun "control" would stop nothing. Lets outlaw cars too because drunk drivers are killing our kids...
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i question the methods that were used, or not used, to evacuate people...
there were 2 hours between the shootings, what was going on then?
but as far as gun control, there is nothing you can do...
if someone wants to commit an act like we saw today, they'll find a way...
it's horrible, because you're powerless against it...
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Aren't there somewhere in the area of 100 million firearms in this country ? How would they plan to fight that number ? Aside from that gunowners have something even more powerful than a gun ....a vote and the politicians know it.
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I was listening to Glenn Beck a couple of weeks ago and he was discussing the gun contol issue, and how there would be outrage if guns were taken.
Eventually he went national scale and commented that if all guns were being taken there would be a civil war, or some sort of huge uproar.
Could you imagine if government agents came to your house and asked to take away your own gun?
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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Quote:
Could you imagine if government agents came to your house and asked to take away your own gun?
The outcome would make news in my neck of the woods I can assure you.
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The UK has banned guns and it DID NOT help. I need to find the stats, but people of the UK I know have stated that gun crimes have increased.
I lost my brother-in-law a year ago to four pieces of excrement who robbed him, shot him in the stomach, and put him into the trunk of my sisters car. The gun didn't do the crime. The four punks did the crime. It could have been a knife or a baseball bat. If he was "packing" under conceal carry, he might be alive. We'll never know.
Go through the history of serial killers. It doesn't take a gun. Jack the Ripper never needed one.
"My signature line goes here."
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Quote:
The UK has banned guns and it DID NOT help. I need to find the stats, but people of the UK I know have stated that gun crimes have increased.
I lost my brother-in-law a year ago to four pieces of excrement who robbed him, shot him in the stomach, and put him into the trunk of my sisters car. The gun didn't do the crime. The four punks did the crime. It could have been a knife or a baseball bat. If he was "packing" under conceal carry, he might be alive. We'll never know.
Go through the history of serial killers. It doesn't take a gun. Jack the Ripper never needed one.
that's horrible, i'm relly sorry to hear that
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I usually avoid political issues. However I can't help but relay a story I was witness to: In my hometown the local sheriff was among a group of folks and the gun control issue came up. Someone asked him; 'what if they totally replealled gun ownership, would you go door-to-door to get all the guns?' He replied; 'yes, I would have no problem coming in and taking your guns from your home.' One of the other gentlemen spoke up and said, 'you better bring more than you and your deputies, because you will only take it from my dead body after a helluva shootout first.'
The sheriff was quite obviously shaken by the response, but even more so when most, if not all the others spoke up and agreed. Additionally, it was pointed out that they would probably only get to four or five homes before there would not be enough, or anyone left to come take the guns.
The sheriff politely excused himself and did not broach the topic again.
I think that this would be more likely than people think, and doubt (and hope) it ever comes to that.
It was overall a rather amusing exchange, no one got angry or bent out of shape, it was all matter-of-factly stated. 
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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All Pro
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I cant remember what country it is...but they have minimal gun control laws, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Guns dont kill people, people kill people.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Gun Control is hitting your target.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I cant remember what country it is...but they have minimal gun control laws, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Guns dont kill people, people kill people.
Correlation does not equal causation. But I agree with your second statement. Personally, I would like to take every gun in the world and replace them with flowers, but it is just not going to happen. More regulation? I am open to ideas, but any plan of elimination is just not practical nor will it solve anything.
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The problem with regulation is that it really only affects law abiding citizens. Criminals don't abide by laws as it is---why would they abide by new laws?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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You are right about that but what is the alternative? No regulation? I don't see any problem with stricter regulation as long as law-abiding citizens can still purchase guns. Ultimately, I agree regulation is not going to stop these shootings.
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you can regulate the sale and registration of guns, but you'll never be able to stop people from buying them on the street...
the only thing you can do is better prepare yourself, and even that guarantees you nothing
pretty horrible feeling, huh?
people are going to want to point fingers, and maybe they have a case when it comes to what happened in those 2 hours between shootings, and why there wasn't more control of the campus after a double murder had occured, but this could not have been stopped
the thing that scares me the most is these things sometimes happen in bunches, i really hope we don't hear about another one of these in a few weeks at some other school...
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Quote:
The way in which the media play up cases such as Columbine may make the idea of committing such a crime to achieve notoriety attractive to certain individuals, she said to explain why such killings appear more prevalent in the United States than in other Western countries.
Not sure about this. I'm positive that Australian media would be all over a similar situation if it happened here as would the UK press if it happened there.
For me that question hasn't been answered. Why is this such a prevalent occurence in the US??
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Advocates of wider gun controls said the availability of guns in the United States had made it easier for people to commit murder everywhere, including in schools and colleges.
Thank you Captain Obvious......
#gmstrong
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Well... If we ALL wore guns this guy would have been dead after he shot the first person.
I think Peen alluded to this in the other thread (aplogies in advance if i took your quote out of context Peen)
But are you guys seriously advocating the use of firearms in schools?  Sending little Johnny off to school with a glock in his lunchbox? What the hell is wrong with you? 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I lost my brother-in-law a year ago to four pieces of excrement who robbed him, shot him in the stomach, and put him into the trunk of my sisters car.
First up, sorry about your loss. There are a lot of fruitcakes out there no mistake.
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The UK has banned guns and it DID NOT help. I need to find the stats, but people of the UK I know have stated that gun crimes have increased.
Seriously, i wouldn't want to compare gun crime in the UK with gun crime in the US per head per capita as a means to strengthen your argument. I have no stats at hand but i'm pretty sure that it's less....a lot less.
If there's increases in gun crime i wonder out loud how much that has to do with undesirable immigrants illegal and otherwise entering the country. (I know the port town of Dover has a major problem with violent Kosovans right now.)
If an incident like this latest one happened in a British School you'd here about it on the anniversary every year for the next 50. How long will America be talking about this? Maybe as long as you talked about Columbine (clue: until the next time it happens.)
Ask yourself this, is anyone surprised at this news? I mean yes it's an abhorrent crime on a larger scale than what you've seen before but you have seen this before right? Will you be surprised in 6 months, 1 year or 2 years from now when it happens again??
I mean you only have to look at the 2 threads running and some of the articles posted. Do we blame guns and how easy it is to access them. Do we blame Video games, bullying or violence on TV? Is it a Cultural/Society thing?
Just what has been done since the last big one (Columbine, but there are plenty of US school shootings since then) to prevent re-occurrence?
I don't know what the answers are, but i acknowledge that there should at least be some questions.
#gmstrong
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Just what has been done since the last big one (Columbine, but there are plenty of US school shootings since then) to prevent re-occurrence?
Is there an answer to that? I think the predictable reaction will be that people will expect the government to step up laws and be responsible for tightening security in schools. Depending on the government to protect us from this is not the answer. The government will fail us. Just like the government failed to protect the citizens of New Orleans after Katrina. People in NO realized it and went out and got the means to defend themselves.
Gun control is an oxymoron. Most places have signs saying no weapons allowed. well, thats just fine, it keeps the law abiding citizens from bringing guns into a building, but it does squat for stopping those that want to get a gun into a building to kill people. It is indeed a valid question to ask, what would the outcome be if people were allowed to carry guns in th school?
Am I surprised? Nope. We've gotten off easy in the past on this sort of thing. I look at something like Columbine, where someone runs into a building and shoots and a crowd full of defensless people. How so few died at Columbine compared to what could have been killed. We've been fortunate in the past. These things will only get worse.
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I have a closet full of guns, yet I have killed no one. I have rifles, shotguns, and pistols. They never just go off on their own and kill. I also play video games, and I even (along time ago) played D&D. I guess my partents were both active in my life, and taught me right from wrong.
You cannot take legal registered guns away from the people. Usually the folks that have legal registered firearms are not the ones that use them to commit crimes.
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Quote:
I have a closet full of guns, yet I have killed no one. I have rifles, shotguns, and pistols. They never just go off on their own and kill. I also play video games, and I even (along time ago) played D&D. I guess my partents were both active in my life, and taught me right from wrong.
So what? You and millions like you. You ain't the problem.
The problem maybe the EASE of which such weapons are available. Thats how they get into the hands of nutjobs and the black market.
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You cannot take legal registered guns away from the people.
You can't. You're too far gone for that as a nation.
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Usually the folks that have legal registered firearms are not the ones that use them to commit crimes.
Correct, but you know what? The process to obtain those weapons is exactly the same for the nutjob or criminal i'm guessing. If that is the case is that a system that you are comfortable with?
#gmstrong
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Are you implying that this person used legally obtained weapons to commit his crime?
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#gmstrong
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Some of you are finally starting to give a damn about your rights? What did you expect?
You have been bending over for years now! Your right to privacy? You've gladly given up in "the name of safety".
Allowing arrests without speedy trials? You've given that up too................
Now all of a sudden you're alarmed? Why? You should have been alarmed a LONG TIME AGO! Once you start giving up your rights,you play hell ever getting them back.
They CAN'T get all of my guns. NEVER!
Unless they can figure out where guns and ammo are buried,they'll never get all of mine. Of course I've been raising hell about us loosing our rights ever since 9/11 while many have laid spread open in submission. Well boys,you reap what you sew.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I find it absolutely staggering that we've witnessed yet another School Massacre in the States and so many peoples' first notion is
"Let 'em come and try to take my guns. "
The first notion should be,"What the hell is wrong with my society that makes people go crazy and start shooting up the joint on such a regular basis."
But call me Mr Narrow Minded......
#gmstrong
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I think maybe you missed my point, and maybe I missed yours. I was trying to say you cannot blame the gun for the crime, you have to blame the person.
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In case you missed it,there's a HUGE thread about the killings. And this is a side issue that was given its own thread.This was NOT the first response,but an after thought. We have hearts and souls. But we also understand the aftermath of such occurrences. The grief of man is used as a tool as a means to an end. It happenned after 9/11 while our government slowly eroded our rights in the name of freedom. It's becoming far more common in America. It does seem nobody gives a damn though untill it comes to their guns. At least they still have enough common sense to draw the line somewhere!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I've never owned a gun.... I have shot one a time or two.. Didn't find any big deal with it personally.. No joy in mudville for me with guns at all..... But here's the deal, I like feeling that if I want one, I can go to the store and buy one. Since 9/11, so many things have changed.. So many of the freedoms that we have taken for granted in the USA have been altered or taken away completely.. To a great extent, I understand all the airport security.. but this gun thing... I don't know. Are we to react to every nutbag out there.. This is a guy(s) that just went off his rocker.. because of that are we to take all the guns that are owned by good people away? Sorry, I can't go for that. Again, this is coming from a guy that could care less about owning a gun personally. No desire to do so ever! But like I said, I like the idea of being able to buy one if I so choose! Peen, I'll stand with you on this,,,,,,(can you lend me a weapon please,,load it, cause I have no clue how to do that  )
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
The UK has banned guns and it DID NOT help. I need to find the stats, but people of the UK I know have stated that gun crimes have increased.
Got some stats for you bro.
web page
Britain's tough gun laws
By Philip Johnston
Last Updated: 6:33am BST 17/04/2007
British gun laws are said to be among the world's toughest.
Semi-automatic and pump-action centrefire rifles were banned following the massacre in Hungerford, Berks, in August 1987. Michael Ryan, 27, armed with a semi-automatic AK47, a Beretta handgun and a fragmentation grenade, killed 16 people, including his own mother, and wounded 15 others.
It has also been illegal to own a handgun, even for sporting purposes, following laws introduced after the Dunblane shooting in March 1996 when Thomas Hamilton shot dead 16 young children and their teacher at the Scottish town's primary school.
Handguns were outlawed in Britain in 1997 and some 160,000 were surrendered to police. Even Britain's Olympic shooters fall under this ban, meaning the pistol-shooting team must train outside the country.
Possessing a firearm carries a minimum sentence of five years. For those aged between 17 and 21, the minimum is three years.
A report by the Centre for Defence Studies at King's College, London, last year found that illegal handguns were being used more frequently in crimes. The number involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 21,521 in 2005/06.
After shootings in London and Manchester in February, Tony Blair ordered another review of the law and pledged to rush through new powers for the police.
A Home Office report published just before Christmas said illegal guns are not easy to obtain for most people. But well-connected criminals could buy automatic weapons such as machine guns on the streets for £4,000, although the cheapest went for just £800.
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Possessing a firearm carries a minimum sentence of five years. For those aged between 17 and 21, the minimum is three years.
Good deterrent. Minimum of 5 years for just posession.
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The number involving firearms in England and Wales increased from 13,874 in 1998/99 to 21,521 in 2005/06.
There's the stats. It's evolution baby. Comparable to population growth maybe? Who knows.....I know there was a problem with Yardies in the Inner cities starting in London at the tail end of the 90's and spreading to Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol and even my home town of Newport. (My dad was in one of the Regional crime squads.  )
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After shootings in London and Manchester in February, Tony Blair ordered another review of the law and pledged to rush through new powers for the police.
Maybe English can help me out on these. Black on Black crime, drug turf related but affecting innocent by-standers if memory serves me? Maybe a drive by?
The reason it's shocking is that it's the exception in the UK. Not so on the streets of L.A.
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A Home Office report published just before Christmas said illegal guns are not easy to obtain for most people.
True enough, if i wanted one i'd have no idea where to start.
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But well-connected criminals could buy automatic weapons such as machine guns on the streets for £4,000, although the cheapest went for just £800.
There's a kicker....i'm guessing jilted love sick fruit-cakes might not fall in to the "well-connected criminal" category.
Obviously there are other issues here guys, but gun availability and ease of access is an undeniable factor in these spree killings and the amount of damage they wreak. JMO
#gmstrong
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I think Peen alluded to this in the other thread (aplogies in advance if i took your quote out of context Peen)
But are you guys seriously advocating the use of firearms in schools?
NO.....you are taking my comment out of context.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Boiling that down, does this mean that in Britain, they banned lots of different guns and the use of guns in crimes went up? Did I understand that correctly?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
In case you missed it,there's a HUGE thread about the killings. And this is a side issue that was given its own thread.This was NOT the first response,but an after thought.
We have hearts and souls. But we also understand the aftermath of such occurrences.
Fair enough, i stand corrected. Apologies.
The bigger issue for me (of which gun control or strict measures need to be enforced) is the alarming regularity at which this happens in US schools,
Let's look at this, a timeline from the BBC, not quite a 10 year period. I wonder how many smaller incidents were omitted?
Linky
Timeline: US school shootings
The BBC News website charts the history of gun violence in US schools.
April 2007: A gunman shoots dead at least 20 people at the campus of Virginia Tech university in Virginia.
October 2006: A 32-year-old gunman shoots dead at least five girls at an Amish school in Pennsylvania, before killing himself
September 2006: Gunman in Colorado shoots and fatally wounds a teenage schoolgirl, then kills himself; two days later a teenager kills the headteacher of a school in Cazenovia, Wisconsin
November 2005: Student in Tennessee shoots dead an assistant principal and wounds two other administrators
March 2005: Minnesota schoolboy kills nine, then shoots himself
May 2004: Four people injured in shooting at a school in Maryland
April 2003: Teenager shoots dead head-teacher at a Pennsylvania school, then kills himself
March 2001: Pupil opens fire at a school in California, killing two students
February 2000: Six-year-old girl shot dead by classmate in Michigan
November 1999: Thirteen-year-old girl shot dead by a classmate in New Mexico
May 1999: Student injures six pupils in shoot-out in Georgia
April 1999: Two teenagers shoot dead 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine School in Colorado
June 1998: Two adults hurt in shooting by teenage student at high school in Virginia
May 1998: Fifteen-year-old boy shoots himself in the head after taking a girl hostage
May 1998: Fifteen-year-old shoots dead two students in school cafeteria in Oregon
April 1998: Fourteen-year-old shoots dead a teacher and wounds two students in Pennsylvania
March 1998: Two boys, 11 and 13, kill four girls and a teacher in Arkansas
December 1997: Fourteen-year-old boy kills three students in Kentucky
October 1997: Sixteen-year-old boy stabs mother, then shoots dead two students at school in Mississippi, injuring several others
I don't think you get such violence in schools in 3rd world countries.
I know you've welcomed my "partisan" non-American view in the past The reaction to this in the office today was mostly non-plussed. "School shooting in America.....whats new?"
That not scary?
Now maybe taking away Pit's guns won't solve anything and i don't profess to have all the answers....in fact i haven't got any! But i sure as hell know summats wrong in your society and if i lived there i would welcome any suggestions which might prevent re-occurrence of such mind-numbing tragedies.....and thats the big picture.
#gmstrong
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I actually had a class in high school ("Outdoor Education") where part of the class we learned gun safety, and took 2-3 weekly "field trips" to the police station and fired live rounds in their firing range. At the conclusion, we additionally had another trip to the Cuyahoga County Outdoormans Association, where we shot skeet with 12 & 24 gauge shotguns, and shot targets with .22 rifles, black powder rifles, and handguns. No one died, and to be honest with you, I think they still offer the class, 12 years later (anyone here from North Royalton High School to confirm?). Class was open to all 10-12th grade students.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Did I understand that correctly?
Like i said D, it's evolution baby. Like the cost of living. It'd be interesting to compare the increase in gun crime with the increase in population over 10 years to see if comparable.
I know that no-one has gone on a spree through sleepy market country towns with AK-47's since the 80's thats for damned sure.
...and i'll take 21,521 in a population of over 60 million any day of the week and twice on Sundays. 
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
If you want to see real shooting, try to take the guns.
You will have the good guys behind bars and the bad guys will still have their guns.
Thank you....hat off to ya peen...
If someone whats to harm somebody they will find a way, it isnt the weapon it's the act, like blaming a pencil for spelling errors, not to make light of the subject but it's true.
take the gun he grabs a knife, take the knife he grabs a tire iron, take that he grabs a rock, when does it stop, it wont, it dosent.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
If someone whats to harm somebody they will find a way, it isnt the weapon it's the act,
No doubt, but why make it easy for crackpots by gift wrapping semi-automatic weapons?
Quote:
take the gun he grabs a knife, take the knife he grabs a tire iron, take that he grabs a rock,
If i were a betting man, this latest nut job doesn't massacre 30 plus and injure scores more with a tyre iron in like 3 hours or whatever time it was......
Be interesting to find out details on how he came by these weapons and what the vetting process was, if any.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,682 |
Quote:
The first notion should be,"What the hell is wrong with my society that makes people go crazy and start shooting up the joint on such a regular basis."
It is my first though after thinking about the people killed. I think about that often.
My comments about guns are only response to the birdbrains who invariably proclaim that guns are the problem and how we need to gather them.
As a person who respects the law, I also know many don't. Gathering guns will only do 2 things. First, it will keep arms in the hands of the violent people who wouldn't turn them in. Second, it would turn massive amounts of law abiding citizens into criminals who wouldn't turn them in either......just as I wouldn't.
I believe in the Constitution. What it says and what it represents. Many people have died protecting that ideal.....including more than a few Aussies my friend.
I am willing to give up a few rights....or modifications to some rights as the world culture changes......but this isn't one of them. No way, no how....or as some would say, over my dead body.
The day only governments and police have weapons is the day it all ends.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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