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http://news.yahoo.com/putin-signs-treaty-making-crimea-part-russia-121247941.htmlMOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin and two Crimean leaders signed a treaty on Tuesday on making the Ukrainian Black Sea peninsula a part of Russia. The signing in the Kremlin came two days after Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine and join Russia in a referendum condemned by the Ukrainian government, the United States and the European Union as illegitimate. Crimea's accession still requires the approval of Russian parliament, parliamentary officials say. (Writing by Steve Gutterman, Editing by Timothy Heritage)
Meh.
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Meh.
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~ Legend
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Probably nothing, and that's for the best. Crimea has now left Ukraine so Ukraine now has an overwhelming majority who are pro EU instead of the 50/50 split we had before. That was best case scenario for us.
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thanks!
I was wondering how this would change things.
Meh.
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I could see other parts of Ukraine and parts of Moldova next, and who knows beyond that.
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Russia doesn't want to expand that way, it taxes them way too much.
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Quote:
We'll see...
Well, why would they attack them?
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Nobody said anything about attacking anyone.
Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. There are other parts of Ukraine and parts of Moldova that I can see doing the same.
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And if the majority vote praises the move, then so be it. It's what "they" want, so we need to just mind our own business. Besides the more Obama talks, the more weak we look.
Give the people what they want and if that's being a part of Russia/Putin, then so be it... what is it our business to say they can/can't do if the majority vote says that is what they want, huh? We are not Judge Judy of the world.
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There is probably a load uproar of laughter in the Kremlin every time the phone rings and somebody says "hey Vlad the call is for you, it's Obama.
GO BROWNS!
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.. Germany lost land ( end of WW1 ) to a number of other countries. Alsace-Lorraine was returned to France, Eupen and Malmedy were given to Belgium, North Schleswig was given to Denmark. Land was also taken from Germany and given to Czechoslovakia and Poland. The League of Nations took control of Germany's colonies
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Guess what excuse Hitler used to instigate WW2 ?... Just Historical thought !
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I guess that "reset button" didn't work out too well for Obama. web page
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Quote:
I guess that "reset button" didn't work out too well for Obama.
web page
It worked perfectly. We're fighting the Cold War all over again.
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What this whole situation shows me is how ineffective the UN is as a body for settling problems.
With the permanent members of the Security Council having absolute veto power, the Security Council itself becomes worthless. There is no means of overriding a veto by one of the permanent members of the Security Council, which means that any one member of the Security Council can literally thwart the will of the entire world.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What is see is a community organizer vs. a strong thug world leader, no contest. When Assad crossed our "red line" and nothing was done this was the beginning of current situation. Our community organizer makes Carter look like Teddy Roosevelt. Being weak energizes our enemies even more and we get weaker with each tepid response to a world crisis.
As for this not being our business, we did sign a defense treaty with the Ukraine. Doing nothing makes our word worthless and we lose even more character.
Remember when Romney warned that Russia was the biggest geopolitical group facing America and Obama quipped " the 1980's are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back"? Well community organizer, welcome back to the 80's.
I'm not saying we put troops in play, but nothing says we can't arm the Ukraine with something like the new anti-tank weapons we are getting from Sweden an maybe placing some anti aircraft systems there.
The Constitution shall never be construe to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams
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And our economy and unemployment rate continues to plunge as' well! Good times...  Quote:
What this whole situation shows me is how ineffective the UN is as a body for settling problems.
Isn't this the truth.
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While I don't think that Obama has done a great job with regards to Russia, I really don't see a whole lot more he could do at this point.
We aren't going to directly confront them militarily. We don't have a united enough front with out allies to put sanctions in place. Too much of Europe, as well as China, depend upon Russian oil. We can't just decide to move militarily in a unilateral fashion. He's in a really tough position. (and I an by no means an Obama fan)
I am unsure how Obama's pledge works with regards to an internal Ukrainian problem, where the Crimea region has voter to secede from Ukraine. Do we send US troops to settle an internal problem inside Ukraine? Like it or not, the people in Crimea want to return to Russia. That is an issue that probably needs to be settled with strong diplomacy, not military force.
I do agree with you that Obama was rather short sighted in not seeing the threat presented by Russia as posed by Romney. This is absolutely a case where he was 100% wrong, and Romney was right. I still don't know how we fix the situation though.
One possibility might be to make Ukraine a full NATO member. That would make Russia completely irate, and would offer NATO protection to the Ukraine. The US is scheduled to have a military exercise in Ukraine in June or July .... I can't recall which ...... but I would move that up if I were in charge. Maybe bring in NATO for joint maneuvers inside Ukraine, just to send a message. Beyond that ..... it's a really difficult situation, that requires a lot of careful decisions.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Obama gets steamrolled. Even as others criticized the vote as a fraud, Mr. Putin moved quickly on Monday to recognize its result, which he called “more than convincing” with nearly 97 percent of voters in favor of seceding from Ukraine. By Tuesday he signed a treaty of accession with the region’s new leaders to make Crimea and the city of Sevastopol the 84th and 85th regions of the Russian Federation. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0
GO BROWNS!
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What exactly do you want Obama to do? Obama and the EU already started the revolution and now they've taken Ukraine. We clearly won this without a doubt.
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Obama is getting steam rolled... however as much as I really don't care for Obama - I don't see any other President being able to do much better given the same exact situation. I am just being blunt and honest. The UN isn't really expressing much either.
Putin wins this one in my book.
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Agreed.
He should've kept his mouth shut. Any threats were going to be empty. Other than that, not much he can do.
The U.S. not about to get into military conflicts with heavyweights. We pick on small fries.
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Quote:
And our economy and unemployment rate continues to plunge as' well! Good times...
Quote:
What this whole situation shows me is how ineffective the UN is as a body for settling problems.
Isn't this the truth.
Factually, the U.N. is also operating EXACTLY as designed. It doesn't protect one member from aggression from another. Curiously, Ukraine itself is an security council member and could veto the U.N. from proceeding on anything. That is, in theory, this is the case.
The U.N. can't do anything because they never intended to do ever do anything to prevent this type of aggression.
As for what's next, my guess is that the Baltic states (Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania) should be viewing this very closely.
Germany could, using Putin's logic, lay claim to Kaliningrad and move forces into it.
The next move should then be to start acknowledging every claim by any country with a claim on 'Russian' territory and to move in military forces to protect them.
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Quote:
Obama is getting steam rolled... however as much as I really don't care for Obama - I don't see any other President being able to do much better given the same exact situation. I am just being blunt and honest. The UN isn't really expressing much either.
Putin wins this one in my book.
And when Putin makes a claim on Alaska, Obama will give it up too.
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Quote:
Factually, the U.N. is also operating EXACTLY as designed. It doesn't protect one member from aggression from another. Curiously, Ukraine itself is an security council member and could veto the U.N. from proceeding on anything. That is, in theory, this is the case.
Ukraine is not currently a member of the security council:
http://www.un.org/en/sc/members/
Also, only the permanent members (P5): US/UK/France/China/Russia have veto power. The other nations can vote against a bill from the security council, but they can't actually veto a bill unilaterally. Effectively only the P5 have power, because if they all agree on something, they can almost certainly convince 3 of the smaller countries to agree too.
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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When it comes to Foreign Policy the Obama team has no clue and no guts. He is remember, a street corner organizer. Putin on the other hand was a KGB agent. It boils down again and again to leadership, and the rest of the world now knows the USA lacks leadership. For those who say what else could Obama or anybody do to resolve this crisis? I say if we would have had strong leadership and a solid foreign policy, we would be far better off than we are now. From Lybia, Iran, Syria, Egypt,Afghanistan and now Ukraine it is just getting worst without any leadership or plan in place.
GO BROWNS!
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I believe Afghanistan should have taught us you just don't go around supporting people for the sake of change.
To help put someone else in power who is even worse, or more extreme doesn't help us in the long run.
You had a long list of things it seems you felt we "should have been more involved in", yet from the ones we were involved in, the outcome seems as bad or worse.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
From Lybia, Iran, Syria, Egypt,Afghanistan and now Ukraine it is just getting worst without any leadership or plan in place.
All I see here is our nation's debt increasing at the expense of not really gaining much in return for our nation out of the millions/billions in aide/etc that we have so easily gave away to the above. We should just take away John Kerry and Obama's smartphone and maybe they would start to just ignore these foreign matters that don't necessarily pertain to the US.
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Quote:
Quote:
Obama is getting steam rolled... however as much as I really don't care for Obama - I don't see any other President being able to do much better given the same exact situation. I am just being blunt and honest. The UN isn't really expressing much either.
Putin wins this one in my book.
And when Putin makes a claim on Alaska, Obama will give it up too.
I know you feel a need to force Obama into the idea of him that you expected when he took office, but what exactly did you expect him to do here? Put boots on the ground in Ukraine? Bomb Russia?
As far as I can see, the only mistake he made here was dropping empty threats. He should've just shut up and let the matter play out.
Other than that.. what exactly did he do wrong?
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JC
Obama is doing what the vast majority of American People want him to do. Just like he did on Syria.
In terms of finding WMD, "Weak Looks" appear more effective than Trillion Dollar Wars.
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Quote:
The next move should then be to start acknowledging every claim by any country with a claim on 'Russian' territory and to move in military forces to protect them.
But Russia didn't run in and invade Crimea just for taking a piece of the Ukraine back for the taking. If anything, it was the opposite. Ukraine was under some severe civil distress. A good portion of the country didn't like the current leadership that had close ties with Russia, so a mini-revolt broke out. Crimea is a very heavy pro-Russia area, so Russia moved in to protect them. Crimea eventually voted to become part of Russia, and Russia took them in.
It wasn't like Russia saw some weakness, invaded, and took Crimea kicking and screaming back into the Russian Republic. It's a pretty pro-Russian area.
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I disagree with you on that one. I think Obama had to do something to look like he was doing something. These moves are all symbolic though and hold literally no meaning.
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Quote:
Quote:
Factually, the U.N. is also operating EXACTLY as designed. It doesn't protect one member from aggression from another. Curiously, Ukraine itself is an security council member and could veto the U.N. from proceeding on anything. That is, in theory, this is the case.
Ukraine is not currently a member of the security council:
http://www.un.org/en/sc/members/
Also, only the permanent members (P5): US/UK/France/China/Russia have veto power. The other nations can vote against a bill from the security council, but they can't actually veto a bill unilaterally. Effectively only the P5 have power, because if they all agree on something, they can almost certainly convince 3 of the smaller countries to agree too.
Oh. LOL Back when it was the USSR, they had a vote on the security council. My bad. Did they give that up? Did we ask them to relinquish it?
I've learned something new today. Thanks. 
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Quote:
Quote:
The next move should then be to start acknowledging every claim by any country with a claim on 'Russian' territory and to move in military forces to protect them.
But Russia didn't run in and invade Crimea just for taking a piece of the Ukraine back for the taking. If anything, it was the opposite. Ukraine was under some severe civil distress. A good portion of the country didn't like the current leadership that had close ties with Russia, so a mini-revolt broke out. Crimea is a very heavy pro-Russia area, so Russia moved in to protect them. Crimea eventually voted to become part of Russia, and Russia took them in.
It wasn't like Russia saw some weakness, invaded, and took Crimea kicking and screaming back into the Russian Republic. It's a pretty pro-Russian area.
I think your timeline and actual facts of the situation are a bit skewed from the truth, but I won't belabor the point.
Maybe Mexico can make a claim on California. They might even get a majority of 'citizens' to agree to it. Don't think it can happen? Look up Aztlan and look at the groups proposing it's return to Mexico.
There are all sorts of claims that could be made and none of them should be honored and every one of them should be rejected militarily, if necessary.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The next move should then be to start acknowledging every claim by any country with a claim on 'Russian' territory and to move in military forces to protect them.
But Russia didn't run in and invade Crimea just for taking a piece of the Ukraine back for the taking. If anything, it was the opposite. Ukraine was under some severe civil distress. A good portion of the country didn't like the current leadership that had close ties with Russia, so a mini-revolt broke out. Crimea is a very heavy pro-Russia area, so Russia moved in to protect them. Crimea eventually voted to become part of Russia, and Russia took them in.
It wasn't like Russia saw some weakness, invaded, and took Crimea kicking and screaming back into the Russian Republic. It's a pretty pro-Russian area.
I think your timeline and actual facts of the situation are a bit skewed from the truth, but I won't belabor the point.
Maybe Mexico can make a claim on California. They might even get a majority of 'citizens' to agree to it. Don't think it can happen? Look up Aztlan and look at the groups proposing it's return to Mexico.
There are all sorts of claims that could be made and none of them should be honored and every one of them should be rejected militarily, if necessary.
so your advocating going over to a country we have no business with in the first place?
when i get my deployment orders to go "defend" ukraine, you can take my spot, how about that?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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This is going to sound terrible, and I don't mean it that way, but: You weren't drafted, you signed up. That means you signed up to be part of the team, and being part of the team means you do what you are told, doesn't it?
You accept your paycheck, right? You accept the GI bill, right?
Hey, how about my good friend - ex marine. He did what he was told to do. Didn't like it, but he did it.
After he got out, he joined the reserves. Got married. Had 3 kids. He's been to afghanistan as a reserve - leaving his job, his wife, and his kids behind. He didn't bitch about it. As he said "hey, I knew when I joined I might get called."
And NO, I am not advocating going to war, so please don't say that or insinuate that.
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So are you advocating that we send military men to die to overrule a democratically elected movement?
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Just to expound... What's next? The answer could be Estonia. Moscow signals concern for Russians in Estonia (Reuters)By Robert Evans GENEVA Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:03pm EDT (Reuters) - Russia signaled concern on Wednesday at Estonia's treatment of its large ethnic Russian minority, comparing language policy in the Baltic state with what it said was a call in Ukraine to prevent the use of Russian. Russia has defended its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula by arguing it has the right to protect Russian-speakers outside its borders, so the reference to linguistic tensions in another former Soviet republic comes at a highly sensitive moment. Russia fully supported the protection of the rights of linguistic minorities, a Moscow diplomat told the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva, according to a summary of the session issued by the U.N.'s information department. "Language should not be used to segregate and isolate groups," the diplomat was reported as saying. Russia was "concerned by steps taken in this regard in Estonia as well as in Ukraine," the Moscow envoy was said to have added. The text of the Russian remarks, echoing long-standing complaints over Estonia's insistence that the large Russian minority in the east of the country should be able to speak Estonian, was not immediately available. But amid the growing Crimea crisis, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - which like Ukraine were all parts of the old Soviet Union - have expressed growing apprehension over Moscow's intentions. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden is currently in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius as part of a trip to reassure the three countries, all European Union and NATO members, of Washington's support. Ukraine told the rights council that U.N. experts had found no credible evidence of mistreatment of its Russian minority as alleged by Moscow -- one of whose pro-Kremlin newspapers said this week there was "bloodshed almost like in Syria" in the east of the country. The new government in Kiev, a Ukrainian envoy declared, was reinvigorating its promotion and protection of the rights of minorities "to the highest international standards". The envoy asked what measures could be taken to protect Ukrainian, Crimean Tatar and other minority groups in Crimea "whose rights are being violated under the Russian occupation." Responding, the Russian delegate said there were no violations of minority rights in Crimea and minorities were not being persecuted. The new Russian-backed government there had guaranteed protection of the Tatars.
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Quote:
This is going to sound terrible, and I don't mean it that way, but: You weren't drafted, you signed up. That means you signed up to be part of the team, and being part of the team means you do what you are told, doesn't it?
You accept your paycheck, right? You accept the GI bill, right?
Hey, how about my good friend - ex marine. He did what he was told to do. Didn't like it, but he did it.
After he got out, he joined the reserves. Got married. Had 3 kids. He's been to afghanistan as a reserve - leaving his job, his wife, and his kids behind. He didn't bitch about it. As he said "hey, I knew when I joined I might get called."
And NO, I am not advocating going to war, so please don't say that or insinuate that.
but thats exactly what you're doing.
i've deployed 3 times, 4 if you count another 6 months. i never complained about afghanistan because that was the enemy.
iraq...i had my opinion, but i executed. i did what i had to do. war on terror and all that.
but this? arch, there's a REASON we haven't sent troops over there, or sent troops to fight in georgia.
because it simply would be a waste of american lives. you know it, i know it, our government knows it.
so yes, i WILL complain about going to war we have no business fighting. if that was to happen, that would be a strictly political war, defending ukraine over a region that voted to join russia already.
theres no benefit for us. so yes, if you would support that arch, than you're as much to blame as the government you constantly trash talk.
don't talk to me about what or why i signed up. i've already walked the walk.
man...so many people are about military action, yet so few people actually join the military to be PART of the action.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Putin signs treaty on making
Crimea part of Russia. Now what?
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