the guy has tremendous upside and that is why he is going top 10. It is why he was my #1 QB before any workout. I am rarely wrong on these things and I may be on this one but if a team is patient and develops this kid, concentrating on footwork, he can be tremendous.
You keep saying that yet you just seem to ignore the reports on Carr that he is blowing people away with his football IQ, maturity and leadership ability. It is just easier to debate the QB I like is a moron with a big arm and that isnt true. You got this hate for Carr that sounds just like Anarchy when he is ranting about Bridgewater.
Carr is a smart kid with a big arm and that is why he is going top 10. Look i like Bridgewater too and he is a smart kid but his arm isnt cut for the AFC North and he is falling like a rock because of a weak arm and a proday performance that was embarrassing.
While the Big Three quarterbacks -- Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles -- are grabbing all of the attention, Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio.
This paragraph here is what really irks me. How is she able to state, as if it were fact, that the Browns would target Carr at the 4 slot? I mean she actually prefaces her assumption with the word fact. Is it carelessness or, lack of respect for the critical thinking ability of her readership? If you're going to make a statement this strongly at least attribute it to some anonymous source. The point being, Farmer and Pettine had gone out of their way to give no signal about their draft intentions but then we get this from Mary K and the PD.
Quote: You got this hate for Carr that sounds just like Anarchy when he is ranting about Bridgewater.
I don't hate Bridgewater. I simply don't like him as a QB for the Browns. I'd love him as the QB for the Bengals or some other AFC North team.
His pro day performance exposed him to the world in a very real way. For sure, Bridgewater will get private workouts with teams and he will have to light one of them up to get selected anywhere in the 1st round.
The problem that Bridgewater faces is that he won't get the opportunity to be scripted again. He'll have to go in blind and perform the routine that the team evaluating him puts forth. He'll also have to do it much better than the rest of the QB prospects that will be evaluated by the various teams. If he performs poorly, or not significantly better than the competition (yes, he's in a QB competition already), then his draft stock will fall - perhaps precipitously.
Bortles, Manziel and Carr all performed very well at their pro days and either moved up or put a more firm foundation under their draft position. Bridgewater didn't. His draft position was built on a fault line and the earthquake hit in the form of his pro day. The compound his problem, there are other QBs lurking on the edges that he's now competing with as well for draft position. Garoppolo can probably see a struggling Bridgewater from his vantage point. McCarron too.
I can probably provide some input (although I don't work for the Browns) on why they could be considering him at #4.
1. Bortles may not be there at #4. If he is, they may select him instead if they are intent on drafting a QB there.
2. If they're intent on drafting the best QB (in their view) that is available for them at #4 and Bortles is gone before this, then they could very well take Derek Carr at #4.
I happen to think that the Browns (and just about every NFL team) rates Carr as either the #1 or #2 QB in the class. Ahead of Manziel and Bridgewater.
Those are reasonable propositions. But with all due respect, they remain conjecture. Please don't interpret this as a criticism of Bortles or Carr for that matter. At least you use words like "if" and "may". Its the fact that media and to a lessor extent, posters repeatedly state their opinion as fact with nothing to support it that irritates me.
It will all come down to NFL Bias...I liked Manziel a lot. Hard not to like, I would not mind at all if we took him at #4. But I know the NFL is biased regarding QBs, Why Wilson went in the 3rd round.
There has never been a QB that went in the first round (modern Era) that was under 6'. Vick was 6' even but close enough to be classed as the only exception.
Will this be the year. I have a feeling Manziel will drop big time. I'm hoping all the way to 26. No clue about Teddy. I always thought he was overall #1 - does that change?
This will be fun and very volatile in this draft.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.
"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.
So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?
Just take it at face value. Kyle is the guy that is running the Offense, I'd expect him to take the lead on the coaching staff when it comes to assessing a QB. Now, if Pettine runs the show for any Defensive guy they are considering, they we have something to talk about. But that's JMO
I wouldn't even call it taking the lead. Shanny simply ran the workout. I would suspect our D coordinator will run any defensive player workouts.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
While the Big Three quarterbacks -- Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles -- are grabbing all of the attention, Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio.
This paragraph here is what really irks me. How is she able to state, as if it were fact, that the Browns would target Carr at the 4 slot? I mean she actually prefaces her assumption with the word fact. Is it carelessness or, lack of respect for the critical thinking ability of her readership? If you're going to make a statement this strongly at least attribute it to some anonymous source. The point being, Farmer and Pettine had gone out of their way to give no signal about their draft intentions but then we get this from Mary K and the PD.
Stepping off my soapbox now...
What do you want beat reporters to report?
I swear that people are never happy. If reporters help conceal secrets leading up to the draft, then they aren't doing their jobs. If they report what they hear, then they are traitors, and not doing their jobs.
She did not say "Browns scouts have Carr written in ink as their #4 pick" ...... she said that they are strongly considering him. Well. he is the 1st QB they have looked at in person as far as a visit goes. "Some scouts have him ranked ahead of the popular trio" doesn't say "Browns scouts" ...... it says some scouts. Given that he Raiders have been reported to really like Carr, why would this be a huge surprise.
This is the stupid season, and reporters do their best to keep up amid rumors and innuendo, misdirection and outright lies. .....
Would it shock me if the powers that be prefer a guy with elite physical tools to one with superior intangibles, but lesser tools? Not really. Most coaches believe that they can coach up a player with talent, but who has flaws.
I would not surprise me at all of a team would have Carr at the top of their list right now. That can change as they have visits with other players, and as the team releases information, either overtly or covertly ...... or even accidentally.
As for how she could report something like she did ..... maybe she has a source inside the team. Most local reporters do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
This draft really has me going. Even though Clowney has amazing skills; he is not The consensus number one pick. Clowney is the guy though that can change the direction of the draft. He will go top three. But to who is the question? From there things can go all kinds of different ways.
Pure talent not a mock I see it this way: Top ten.
Clowney Robinson Watkins Mack Matthews Bridgewater Evans Donald Denard Mosley
Of course that will not be the way they are drafted.
My hope for the Browns in the first round:
Option One: Bridgewater and Brandon Cooks (also like Odell Beckham)
Option Two: Watkins and Garopollo
There are other options I can live with if things do not work the right way. If Watkins and Bridgewater are gone. I could live with Matthews and Garopollo.
I am not big on Bortles because I believe he is a position reach at four especially in this draft.
I know you like Manziel but to me he does not grade out as a first rounder. A sub 6', two year college player with many question marks. In his case though I do not believe the height thing matters at all. He finds throwing lanes. He may worth the 26th pick but really I see him as a second rounder.
Carr's game tape really turns me off. He is potential guy and that scares me.
This draft has got so many great players. There are plenty of guys who will go in the second that have first round grades.
This draft gives the Browns the chance to get to strike gold. I am counting on management to get this right. Maybe it is not my way. But it has to work out.
When the dust settles and the draft is in the books the Browns will either leap forward or fall back.
Quote: Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.
"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.
So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?
Just take it at face value. Kyle is the guy that is running the Offense, I'd expect him to take the lead on the coaching staff when it comes to assessing a QB. Now, if Pettine runs the show for any Defensive guy they are considering, they we have something to talk about. But that's JMO
I wouldn't even call it taking the lead. Shanny simply ran the workout. I would suspect our D coordinator will run any defensive player workouts.
FYI, I was using "Taking the lead" and "Running the workout" as the same thing. And I agree, Pettine seems like the kinda guy that will observe and make final decisions but he also seems like the kinda guy that will want his coordinators to "Take the Lead in Running the workouts"
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: You keep saying that yet you just seem to ignore the reports on Carr that he is blowing people away with his football IQ, maturity and leadership ability. It is just easier to debate the QB I like is a moron with a big arm and that isnt true.
The more I read up on Carr, the more I hear the above statements. Not picking sides or involving myself into the debate, just saying. I've been warming up to the fact that if we don't acquire Bridgewater, I'd make a push to take Watkins and then Carr (which I don't think will go top 10, although I agreed with most other comments). I guess we'll see what happens, but IMO as a backup plan - I'd be very extremely pleased with a Watkins/Carr combo in the first round!
I still think (as I've said since the Senior Bowl) the most-likely place for Carr is Jacksonville at 3. I would be surprised if he gets past the Raiders at 5, even with them trading for Schaub. I'm hoping that Jacksonville will try to get cute at 3 and trade back letting us choose which QB we want at 4.
It's not just people on this board who think the guy is afraid to take a hit. Fans from other teams all seem to have the same sentiment. People I trust for their college evaluations have said the same things about Carr. He is skiddish, like Blaine Gabbert.
I don't spend any time at all watching college football and if I did, I'd probably not watch Fresno.. But I have watched some video (some highlights and some not) with Carr in them. to be honest, I see what Pettine said,, pure passer. I don't see happy feet, I don't see a guy that is scared at all.
Again, this is limited viewing so there probably is something out there that shows him scampering around., I just haven't seen it. Which is very possible.
There is a guy on the Houston Texans message board, I think his name is TK Gamer and his reaction to Carr is very similar to Vers. Happy Feet, runs out of bounds etc.
But it was pointed out, he had a bad Oline at first in Fresno, as it improved his sacks went down. (duh, theres something you never see)
Anyway, while watching the videos it kinda struck me, if we put a running back with him (tate might be the right guy), another receiver across from Gordon and just do a decent job of pass protection, he might be the guy we've been waiting for.
The question is, with his stock seemingly rising As if we always believe those reports he may not even be there at 4.
I guess we'll see.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Based on actual game film, there's no doubt who the best NFL type QB is in this draft. Nothing trumps how players perform in actual games. Nothing trumps if you can actually witness a QB be successful in an actual NFL style system.
I believe people buy into the changing draft boards and media hype far more than NFL GM's do. At least I would hope so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
If we want Carr, we will have to take him at #4. Reports about Oakland loving this guy, I can't see him falling. If he does fall it won't be out of the top ten. I want Watkins, so maybe someone else will beat us to him.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
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Ok just giving my observation on how she described the teams intentions. I feel she overstated those intentions. She could have made the same claim on any of the QB prospects and I would have the same issue. Perhaps I made a mountain out of a molehill. I'll try to avoid that going forward. Up to the time I do it again.
Quote: Those are reasonable propositions. But with all due respect, they remain conjecture. Please don't interpret this as a criticism of Bortles or Carr for that matter. At least you use words like "if" and "may". Its the fact that media and to a lessor extent, posters repeatedly state their opinion as fact with nothing to support it that irritates me.
Oh, I hope that certain members of this message board don't see this post by you. They might call you a liar and since they're on my ignore list, I wouldn't see it unless someone else quoted them.
I think to make Carr successful you need a WR who's dangerous on screens (Watkins is the best), and you need great protection on the line (Robinson at RT) -- then you have the environment to make him successful. Although, at this point you might just want to trade up for Bridgewater/Bortles.
"Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio."
Personally, I see nothing wrong with that statement. It seems to mirror what is being reported elsewhere as far as teams near the top of the draft being intrigued by him, and the fact that we have had a one on one visit with him.. (one of our first such visits) That certainly implies some interest.
I just get tired of hearing people run down the media because they don't like what they report. I remember when MKC 1st reported that Browns players were disgusted with Hillis' behavior, and the way he bailed when he had strep. I actually thought that it was overblown ..... but it turns out that it wasn't. She was one of the first, if not the first, to report that the Browns were going to start Hoyer over Campbell. Sure she sometimes makes mistakes, especially when she tries to write an opinion piece instead of reporting facts and reports she has been given by others, (like the "Campbell is a franchise QB" piece) but for the most part, when she reports something, there is smoke, and usually fire.
I probably went a little overboard, but it seems like people start really lambasting the reporters when they report something people don't want to happen ...... even if it truly is something the team is considering.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: It will all come down to NFL Bias...I liked Manziel a lot. Hard not to like, I would not mind at all if we took him at #4. But I know the NFL is biased regarding QBs, Why Wilson went in the 3rd round.
There has never been a QB that went in the first round (modern Era) that was under 6'. Vick was 6' even but close enough to be classed as the only exception.
Will this be the year. I have a feeling Manziel will drop big time. I'm hoping all the way to 26. No clue about Teddy. I always thought he was overall #1 - does that change?
This will be fun and very volatile in this draft.
jmho
It's not just height man. It's body type. Johnny is tiny. Vick is HUGE compared to him body wise. And Vick can't stay healthy as a running QB. But we're supposed to buy that JM can survive in the NFL? I don't see him being able to hold much more weight either. He could pump up a little, but I don't see him adding 20+ pounds of muscle on that small frame.
Call it bias or whatever, but small little quarterbacks that like to run eventually meet big mean linemen and linebackers that like to HIT.
Based on actual game film, there's no doubt who the best NFL type QB is in this draft. Nothing trumps how players perform in actual games. Nothing trumps if you can actually witness a QB be successful in an actual NFL style system.
I'd argue that it's not clear cut, although I'd say I was more impressed with Bortles than Bridgewater sometimes and more impressed with Bridgewater than Bortles sometimes.
Quote: Why do you say you need great protection at the line for Carr? He took 11 sacks in over 540 pass attempts.
Have you seen any of his games? Hard to find a guy that gets sacked a lot in a montage of screen passes and short throws.
Stop it. This is just wrong. And by wrong, I mean incorrect. He threw 60 more passes beyond the line of scrimmage than Bridgewater did this past year. Also, a higher percentage of Bridgewater's passes were between 1 and 5 yards beyond the LOS this past year the Carr's, so that gap would increase if you say "downfield."
Please stop repeating the same incorrect statements over and over. It is really irritating. I have debunked this with actual facts over opinions or "impressions" several times. Fresno State threw screens instead of running the ball, not instead of passing the ball.
Here are the number of sacks each QB took over the number of opportunities (pass attampts plus sacks). I do not have access to the number of successful scrambles, so I'm excluding those.
Excluding the screen passes (33.19% for Carr, 9.84% for Bridgewater, 22.93% for Bortles, 22.09% for Manziel, here are the number of sacks and pass attempts plus sacks minus screen passes (number of sack opportunities... assuming your assumption of no sacks on screens is true)
Sack opportunities: Pass attempts (excluding screens) plus sacks
Carr: 11 sacks on 451 sack opportunities (2.44%) Bridgewater: 23 sacks on 408 sack opportunities (5.64%) Bortles: 21 sacks on 315 sack opportunities (6.67%) Manziel: 19 sacks on 353 sack opportunities (5.38%)
You think Oakland wants to burn their first pick on a QB after acquiring Shaub, in which Dennis Allen has already labeled him the starter? Doubtfully...
Vick and JM just might play a little different. Vick was 3 lbs more than JM at the combine. JM is tough and wiry - I've already seen him take on some licks and he still is ticking.
I don't see him as a run first QB. He show much more discipline in the pocket in 2013 than 2012...what will happen by 2015? I expect him to run that patent Shanahan Boot leg option but I don't remember that getting the QBs killed.
Why don't you liken him to Fran Tarkenton? Cause he was hurt and he had a pretty long and successful career. Cause as for what to expect from JM I hear Tarkenton as a comparison much more than Vick. Who teams game plan was to keep him n the pocket n contain. JM is not a bad QB at all from the pocket.
If he was 6'2 or 6'3...he would be the consensus overall #1 pick. I see his height but that is ok...I'm done arguing little things. I only have history behind me which is why I said what I said.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I'm not going to read a bunch of stats, go watch their games.
Just watch the first 5 minutes of the Nevada game. I can't make it past 3 minutes without wanting to gouge my eyes out. Screen after screen, all of his long throws are off the mark.
Look he is an intriguing prospect but his entire offense was predicated on the screen pass. No stats are going to convince me otherwise. He is like a younger, more mobile Brandon Weeden from a purely physical and tape standpoint. What's between his ears I can't know.
OK, so facts aren't important to you, just feelings of wanting to gouge your eyes out, got it.
Look, if you throw screen passes instead of running the ball , you're going to throw a lot of screen passes. That's like saying any of the other QBs in the discussion's offense is predicated on the run.
Just watched the first three minutes. Not sure what throws you are talking about - 2 bad throws at 1:55 and 2:05, an eh throw at 2:45 -- but everything else is good. The two throws to the corner end-zone are spectacular.
First of all, stats are hardly factual in the context of evaluating football players. Secondly, all they do is run screens, which leads us back to his not getting sacked a lot, yeah that's the point of running all those screens. Which brings us full circle, he's not used to getting hit and everything falls apart when he is threatened with it.
He's not throwing 20 screens per game in the NFL. So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.
Spread, screen system, terrible competition, seems to not like getting hit. He has a ton of question marks, which is why I assume the Browns have been working so hard on evaluating him.
Quote: So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.
Tom Brady... Peyton Manning...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: First of all, stats are hardly factual in the context of evaluating football players. Secondly, all they do is run screens, which leads us back to his not getting sacked a lot, yeah that's the point of running all those screens. Which brings us full circle, he's not used to getting hit and everything falls apart when he is threatened with it.
He's not throwing 20 screens per game in the NFL. So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.
Spread, screen system, terrible competition, seems to not like getting hit. He has a ton of question marks, which is why I assume the Browns have been working so hard on evaluating him.
No, not all they do is run screens that was the point of my post where I included the numbers, which you immediately said you would ignore because your mind was made up. Carr had 659 pass attempts and was sacked 11 times. 219 of those 659 were screens, which means HE STILL THREW 440 PASSES WHICH WERE NOT SCREENS. Bridgewater (who I'm using as the basis for comparison) threw 385 passes which were not screens, yet was sacked about twice as many times.
Those are facts which invalidate your incorrect assertions. Of course facts don't paint complete pictures of performance, but it can tell you green is green when you are saying green is red.
So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit
Don't know Carr enough to get into any discussion. Just thought the above was a little funny. I really don't know too many QBs who LIKE TO GET HIT...lol
Btw is there enough data base to make any assumption of his effects under pressure. Only taking what I read from you where you stated "he's not use to getting hit" ergo he isn't getting hit that much to draw a good data base???
just wondering. don't take it too serious.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
You should watch the whole thing. He looks good. Good pocket presence, good touch, good accuracy, nice deep ball, throws a very nice corner route, shows some athleticism, finds the open man, reads the D fairly well and spots and exploits the 1 on 1. He would've looked even better without the 2-3 drops from his WRs. Don't know how you look at that game and want to gouge your eyes out. Was he perfect? No. Was he very good? Yes. Did he win? Yes. 487 yards, 3 passing TDs & 1 rushing TD. 41 points and the win. Would you take that from a CB QB? Yes you would.
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