Carr lovers - DawgTalkers.net

Flippa 2: The Sequel? Pray to God, no! Really not nuts about any Schaub deals. I would like to see Guyson for camp, and draft two in the draft. Garapalo (sp.?) still intrigues me.

Derek Carr has it all going for him. He has put up real good numbers. He looked great at the Senior Bowl practices. He showed athleticism at the combine. He has a real good arm with a quick release. He has mobility. He has a brother who was the number one pick in the draft to mentor him. He is a smart kid with good leadership skills. He gives a great interview. He says all the things you want a quarterback prospect to say. Threw the hell out it on his pro day.

However, the "game tape" shows how he plays the game of football:

He backs off his throws. His timing is poor. He misses throws that are layups. His accuracy is inconsistent. The reason is because his footwork is all over the place. The reason his footwork is poor is because he moves his feet when he "senses" pressure; not when pressure is necessarily there. He lacks poise and instinct.

Compare his game tape to Bridgewater's game tape. No comparison really. Bridgewater is a natural. He plays the game with poise and confidence. He is extremely instinctual. He reads the game around him. He moves with purpose. He reads the defense. He is accurate to all parts of the field. He displays vision and can go through progressions. He handles pressure with calmness and makes good decisions.

But damn, he missed some throws on his pro day, in shorts, under no pressure, with nobody covering the receivers. He threw 65 passes at his pro day. Even though he completed 57, because he missed badly on some ( and those were shown a hundred times) and because "some" of the media thought he should have done better well "his stock is slipping".

Three years of game film with continuous improvement over that time. Bowl game MVP's, highest accuracy rating, documented toughness, leadership confirmed by all players and coaches, zero off field incidents. White board master by all accounts. Shows exceptional knowledge of the game by all accounts.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/19956...e-the-no-1-pick

Wash all that away he didn't look so good on his pro day.

Quote:

He has a brother who was the number one pick in the draft to mentor him.

Funny, I think this is one of the things he has going against him.

I really, really liked Carr at the start of all this. I think he has a good family situation, I think he has the arm strength and I think he has the smarts. Nothing however scares me more than hearing a guy is afraid to get hit. You know who was terrified of getting hit, Weeden. He also had a strong arm, also came from a spread, one read system.

I'd be leery of carr.

Also, if we pass on a top QB for a freaking WR, I don't care how talented he is, I am going to throw up and throw a temper tantrum.

Quote:

Quote:

He has a brother who was the number one pick in the draft to mentor him.

Funny, I think this is one of the things he has going against him.

in fans eyes, I think that is going against him. I would hope that teams/scouts are not taking that into consideration.

I don't mean in terms of perception... I see him slinking around the sidelines in his sunglasses going over and getting in his ear at different points and it seems like Derek wants him to go away. I also would not be surprised if that's who advised him to not throw at the combine.

j/c...

I only saw one game of Carr as his name was coming up late in the season and wanted to see who this great QB was.

I was not impressed at all. But it was one game.

One thing I'm pretty sure of - he will sit and get a lot of work on his technique including his foot work, Drops, hitch step - a lot of the other things he'll have to play a little to work on. But some technical stuff he can fix and become a better QB.

If that is the plan I'll see it. This is the first time we would draft a QB with a guy we feel comfortable with as the starter so said QB will not be rushed. Not talking about BQ he's an exception I guess many teams just didn't believe in him and maybe a worse pick than Weeden even.

Vers - don't wish to renew the wars so I will be very brief with this statement. Tim Couch never had an underbelly of a pocket to throw in...Never in his career here. If he stepped up he was killed. Look at his injuries all from the Lack of a pocket what so ever. Guts or not...I would go there if he was still on this team. He is not, so whatever you wish to say on that...no big deal.

Quote:

Never, ever draft a QB who lacks guts and is not willing to stand in the pocket to deliver tough throws.

We have done it multiple times and it has killed us each time. Timid, BQ, and Weeden.

Carr is a wuss! He has skills, but he is afraid. Others will take the blame for him just as they did w/the three fraud qbs I mentioned earlier.

Cancerous.

If Vers is right, then all the "upside" yada yada doesn't really mean anything. Anything but another wasted 3-5 years.
He is right. I've watched Carr for four years. Watched DA live in college for two years. These guys are who they are. They don't just change! Harbaugh did perform a miracle with Kapernick, but those instances are very far and few between. Brady, Kap, we are all hoping and the odds are really against us.

Trade out and get somebodies #1 next year, and then draft at least 3-4 real football players with the remaining picks we have. That is my plan. My plan, and a buck fifty will get you a bus ride anywhere in Cleveland.

If we get Teddy or Johnny with #4 I will support until the last breath, but I want a 6 4' guy who is a real quarterback and is mobile -- not named Bortles.

No homo, but I'm in love with Carr. I was high on him at the start of the season and he has proved me right. I think he can be had at 26 and sit and learn this year. People want to say "he can't change, gunslinger, afraid of contact, blah blah blah" but I really like this kid.

He has a super quick release and when his mechanics are good he is one of the most accurate QBs around. Let him sit for a year and work on his mechanics.

Yes, I love Carr and I hope we draft him at 26.

For anybody that cares about pro days, he did pretty darn good and was IN THE HOSPITAL with the flu the night before: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...rsdays-pro-days

I especially like the comment at the end "Carr is the most polished passer from the pocket."

Quote:

No homo,

Please tell me you're younger than 16.

Quote:

Quote:

No homo,

Please tell me you're younger than 16.

They say the key to grabbing the interest of readers is to have an interesting opening. This qualified.

I think he reminds me of a Jay Cutler type, and would have to sit for a couple years for a learning curve.

Who the none homo?

The Carr situation reminds me a lot of Tannehill. The media appear afraid to say that the kid is a top 10 pick. Most dont have him as a first rounder and yet I think he very well could be the top QB off the board. They are equally afraid to downgrade the guy they had #1 for the year. Really makes no sense but in the next few weeks as team interest peaks, you will see him jump into top 5 in mocks. I think he is a strong consideration at 4 to the Browns and 5 to the Raiders. Would not get past the Vikings at 8.

Yeah I thought he was a lock to the raiders until i saw how much bradley seemed in love with him at the senior bowl. I think he goes #3.

I think 1 QB will go in the top 10 and then maybe one more in the 1st round. There are too many teams seeing that they can find as good a talent at qb in round 2. Just an over all lousy qb class. Makes sense since its the first one we have had ammunition to move up and get one.

I can see farmer waiting till round 2 to grab a qb this year while setting up trade downs to get more picks next year to go after the QB he likes in Mariota who he admits he would have taken this year over everyone else.

Just saying dont be surprised if he tries to play the we wanted to give Hoyer a chance to prove himself line to justify it.

Quote:

I think 1 QB will go in the top 10 and then maybe one more in the 1st round. There are too many teams seeing that they can find as good a talent at qb in round 2.

So you're saying nobody will draft QBs in the first round because there will be QBs in the second round? That's only if nobody drafts QBs in the first round.

I've never been a fan of Tautologies.

Oh yeah, and I think there will be at least 3 QBs drafted in the top 5 and maybe 4.

JC

I'm no QB evaluator, but at this point, I want nothing to do with Carr. In fact, I'm not sure if I want anything to do with the QBs early.

And this is coming from a guy that was screaming do whatever is necessary to grab your perceived best QB prospect.....not so sure anymore.

I'm in the same boat. I was all in favor of doing what it takes to get our guy but this group of QBs seems to be pretty unimpressive... weak year. Especially when you compare them to how stacked all the other positions are this year.

Admittedly, some of the reports about pro days, seeing mock drafts from analysts, etc have swayed me a bit but those outlets have only reinstated what I've begun to think about the QB recently. Again, no guru, but I am beginning to think where the "biggest bang for our buck" at #4 really is.

I still kinda hope they take a QB at #4 and that guy shuts everyone up....including me.

NFL Network reported that the GMs and other talent evaluators are NOT placing much importance on Teddy's Pro Day, but the media is.

Take it for what it's worth.

There are also reports that many NFL teams didn't like Bridgewater before the Pro Day.

Quote:

They are equally afraid to downgrade the guy they had #1 for the year. Really makes no sense

Well of course it does. If you have a guy rated as the top QB all year due to his play, his readiness and system, then change your draft board because of the way guys throw the ball around in shorts, you would look pretty foolish.

LOL..............not only would you look pretty foolish, you would be pretty foolish.

This happens almost every year. Guys climb because they look good. They have height. They are built well. They have a big arm. They do great at the Combine. They awe people at their Pro Days.

They get drafted way higher than they should and then people are surprised when they bust.

Carr is a guy who will more than likely bust because he stinks under pressure. Well, QBs in the NFL get pressured. We've seen it absolutely destroy guys like Timid, Carr's brother, BQ, and Weeden. They can't read coverages and then lack the guts to stand in the pocket and either take needless sacks or become Captain Check Down.

But a large percentage of posters, in their infinite wisdom, want to draft YET another WR at the top of the draft and grab a stiff like Carr later.

couch and carr went to expansion teams that had horrible offensive lines and that is pretty much the end of that argument, the lines couldnt protect on a 3 step drop. Quinn's problem was accuracy. Weeden's problem was horrible mistakes at the worst time, no clutch to him at. He was the reverse Manziel.

We are officially at the point in the off-season where people just regurgitate the same point over and over.

The draft can't come soon enough!

Quote:

couch and carr went to expansion teams that had horrible offensive lines and that is pretty much the end of that argument, the lines couldnt protect on a 3 step drop. Quinn's problem was accuracy. Weeden's problem was horrible mistakes at the worst time, no clutch to him at. He was the reverse Manziel.

Charlie Casserly was the GM that drafted Carr and after the fact, he said the exact same thing. either don't draft the QB or sit him for a year and get the rest of the pieces in place to protect him.

I listened all last year about how good this QB class was going to be. There were guys saying we should wait till this year for a QB. Now we have guys saying the same thing. Wait until next year and get Winston or Mariota. Lets face it boys, drafting a QB is a crap shoot .Petine and Farmer have to take the guy they like and hope for the best.... What have the QBs done that turned everybody against them?

End of the story?

Why didn't other teams show much interest in either Timid or Carr after they were cut?

They sucked. Both held the ball way too long and their offensive lines took all the blame.

That just about nails it !

couch got a pretty sweet contract from GB even when he had a dead arm. Carr played for a few teams there at a nice salary. I forgot what a great OL the Browns and Texans had during their early expansion days. They were just amazing. Never seen blocking quiet like it. I mean they were giving such great protection they allowed Couch to sit his rookie year being the 3rd strong qb.

Quote:

I listened all last year about how good this QB class was going to be. There were guys saying we should wait till this year for a QB. Now we have guys saying the same thing. Wait until next year and get Winston or Mariota. Lets face it boys, drafting a QB is a crap shoot .Petine and Farmer have to take the guy they like and hope for the best.... What have the QBs done that turned everybody against them?

I wasn't one of those espousing this QB class as something great but I actually think, unlike most, that there are some good quality QBs in this draft. Most of them aren't figuring to be of the 'top 3' by most talking heads. I've already stated that I like Bortles. I also like Carr, Mettenberger, Fales and Murray. All of these could be starting caliber QBs in the NFL and I would take all of them over Bridgewater or Manziel.

There are aspects to Brett Smith's game that I like too. He's a lot like Manziel in some respects. He reads the defenses reasonably well although he might get some dyslexia now and then and read the wrong thing. If he reads correctly, he can get the ball out very quickly, but if he doesn't he can make some mistakes. When improvising after the read he made proves to be wrong, he may throw to a covered receiver or make other bad decisions. But Smith is a football smart QB.

When Timid became available, the majority of the posters on here---including you---said teams would gobble him up. Well, not one team traded for him.

You guys argued that they knew he was going to be released so they were waiting. I said that if they really wanted him, they would have made the trade. Well, teams did not flock towards him when he became a FA. Finally, GB signed him.

No one knew of his arm problems at the time. That is a fact!

The lack of interest was due to his inability to read coverages, how long he held the ball, his lack of guts, his lack of leadership, his inaccuracy, and his propensity to check down way instead of trying to pick up first downs.

The guy was a stiff and Carr is a very similar QB. No wonder you love him. No wonder I don't.

So, in you opinion Tim Couch should have waited to go pro until 2007 when we drafted Joe Thomas

Wow, that was deep.

No, my opinion is that Cleveland should have never drafted him first overall. My opinion is that that he sucked so bad and the fans liked him so much that they blamed all of his woes on his supporting cast.

There was a reason why the team was ready to mutiny if KH wasn't named the starter that one year. They were sick of taking the blame for Timid's deficiencies. And this I know for a fact.

My point is that Carr is the same type of QB. He is a guy who looks like a QB, but his lack of guts and inability to read coverages will resort in people blaming the play calling and the supporting cast...................just like they did when Timid was here.

Thats where you are wrong, before that final year of hooked on gut feeling, I wanted them to trade Couch because I felt he had a dead arm. I saw him in camp that year and it was obvious the arm was gone. Should have traded both while they had value.

Look that was a decade ago and I really dont give a flying !#$!@#$ about any of that crap.

You say Carr is a wuss. Yay carr is a wuss, you win, Hope u feel better. Bridgewater pisses champagne and farts rainbows. Yay you are right again.

Couch sucked the ol was great. Holcomb was a hall of famer.
Gordon sucks, Ward sucks, Heckert was an idiot

try not to strain as you pat yourself on the back or really hurt yourself trying roll yourself into a ball to kiss your own ass.

Well, I will agree with you that he should not have been drafted unless we had an O line, we did not, and that is not Couchs fault . I certainly am no Couch apologist or Carr for that matter, but when an organization invests the cash that they did in those days for a franchise QB and then FAIL to address the O line that is just stupid. When young athletes like Couch and Carr are physically unable to perform their job after about 5 years isn't an indictment of their talent, is is a failure of the organization to protect their investments. This is why we have sucked for so long, lousy decision making at the top. I hope that is deep enough for you. Those guys got killed week in and week out, those are the facts!

J/C

Forget Couch. He sucked.

As for Carr, I get the same feeling. If we don't go for Bortels, Johnny, or Teddy, then take Grappolo in the 2nd. I think with a year or two he can become a fine NFL QB.

If he can become close to the others as far as talent and production, then that is the way to go IMO. Using those two 1st rounders on other position will greatly accelerate our improvement....or at least should..

Quote:

Yay carr is a wuss, you win, Hope u feel better. Bridgewater pisses champagne and farts rainbows. Yay you are right again.

Now that's funny.

Quote:

Tautologies

Sent me to the dictionary with that one.

Quote:

J/C

Forget Couch. He sucked.

As for Carr, I get the same feeling. If we don't go for Bortels, Johnny, or Teddy, then take Grappolo in the 2nd. I think with a year or two he can become a fine NFL QB.

If he can become close to the others as far as talent and production, then that is the way to go IMO. Using those two 1st rounders on other position will greatly accelerate our improvement....or at least should..

This goes the same for round one as round 2.

If Houston and Jax pass on QB's, we may find ourselves needing to move ahead of both for either Carr or Garrop.

Which is fine by me, we've got plenty of picks to manipulate our position.

If we came away with Watkins and Fuller at 4 and 26, then moved up for Garrop, I'd do flips.

J/C

Could anyone explain sometime to me...dumb as I am.

There are guys like Carr and Garrapolo who have their fans. Mourg being the only really ardent Carr fan I know of here, but Gara has a big following.

Why aren't these guys at all in the discussion of being top 10 picks if they are as good as the top 3? (Who each have their own flaws). Why bother with these guys if you don't think they are the cream of the crop? Why aren't Gar and Carr in discussion for the top pick?

Quote:

J/C

Could anyone explain sometime to me...dumb as I am.

There are guys like Carr and Garrapolo who have their fans. Mourg being the only really ardent Carr fan I know of here, but Gara has a big following.

Why aren't these guys at all in the discussion of being top 10 picks if they are as good as the top 3? (Who each have their own flaws). Why bother with these guys if you don't think they are the cream of the crop? Why aren't Gar and Carr in discussion for the top pick?

Two words, "Media Hype". All season long the top three have been receiving media attention whereas you never heard much talk about Carr or Garrapolo until the East/West game and senior bowl. I personally would like the Browns to wait and get Gar, McCarron, or Mettenburg in the second or third round. Then after the draft, look for a back up vet for Hoyer and see what falls out. If the FO targets the high powered weapons and OL this year we can be a legit 7-9 or 8-8 team for once. I'll take that over 4-12 any day. The draft cannot get here soon enough so we can start complaining about how dumb the FO is or become overly optimistic about how we're going to have the perfect record and win the super bowl because of our 6th round pick.

Oh well Go BROWNS!

Quote:

... so we can start complaining about how dumb the FO is or become overly optimistic...

Agreed. Much more productive to argue/debate over who we did pick rather than who we should pick. I'll temper that by saying I don't know who we should pick at #4, but please, not Clowney...

The discussion we hear is from the media that covers the draft. In some cases their coverage is accurate to a degree. However, we do not hear the discussions that take place with the people who are paid to evaluate ie, scouts and GM's.

In addition the guys outside the top three all have some negatives that hold them back from some of the discussions. Jimmy G. played in obscurity for a small school. Carr played in a weak conference and there is game film that shows major flaws. Mettenberger lacks mobility and then tore his acl.

In reference to Jimmy G. Bill Poilan a Hall of Fame GM thinks he is a first rounder. I truly believe if he had gone to one of the "football factories" he would be in the discussion. If you really watch this kid he has a lot of what works in the NFL. Love his quick feet, pump fakes, lightning release, and accuracy.If the Browns do not get Bridgewater Jimmy G is the guy I want.

I never bought into how much improved Weeden would be under Norv, so I researched the QBs hard this year.

Here is a condensed version of how it transpired:

--Teddy was regarded as the top guy going in to last season because of his performance the year before. This is especially true because he lit up the nation's top defense in the bowl game.

--Manziel-------well you know all about him. His performance on the football field won him the Heisman trophy. Many thought he was just a gimmicky QB, but he showed to have a good arm and was fairly accurate in the pocket.

--Bortles was not even on the radar. I lucked out because I was watching a South Carolina game on TV and he was playing. He amazed me. I started writing about him before any of the national guys did. He actually streaked up the charts due to his performance on the field.

--Carr was highly regarded all year. He was on the map before the season as the primary challenger to Teddy as the best QB. He put up huge numbers this year, but a couple of late season performances against better competition highlighted his flaws, which are that he is afraid in the pocket and that leads to inaccuracy and him checking down way to quick. He fell down the boards. However, his post season stuff is helping rise from the dead. You know, he has good size and has a strong arm.

--Mettenberger was considered an early to mid first round pick early this season. However, his performance on the field showed that he lacked mobility, threw w/a front stiff leg that lends itself to injury, was a bit erratic in terms of accuracy, and we already knew about the character concerns. His knee injury made him plummet down the boards. However, now some people who were late to the party act like he is better than the Big 3.

--Jimmy G was relatively unknown. His performance has vaulted him up the charts. He has a quick release, is fairly accurate, and is mobile enough. His issues are that he needs to stop and reset his feet when rolling out and that he forces the ball into tight coverages. He did this against lesser competition and some think that he will throw a lot of interceptions in the NFL because of this flaw.

--Boyd was a hot QB this year. Many thought he was a first rounder. However, he doesn't make good reads and his wildly inconsistent w/his accuracy.

--McCarron gets love because of his record at Alabama and his intelligence. However, his arm is well below average.

--Murray is an interesting guy. He looks great at times. Other times, you look at him and see a Rex Grossman or Matt Flynn type of qb. His injury was really costly.

Thus, I don't think the answer to your question has anything to do w/some people wanting to say the FO is stupid or that they think the Browns will win the Super Bowl. I think the answer to your question is by the QB's performance on the actual football field.

1999 1 Tim Couch * QB Kentucky
2000 1 Courtney Brown * DE Penn State
2001 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida
2002 16 William Green RB Boston College [23]
2003 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame
2004 6 Kellen Winslow II TE Miami (Florida) [24]
2005 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
2006 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State [25]
2007 3 Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin [26]
22 Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame [27]
2008 — No Pick — — [27]
2009 21 Alex Mack C California [28]
2010 7 Joe Haden CB Florida
2011 21 Phil Taylor DT Baylor
2012 3 Trent Richardson RB Alabama
22 Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State
2013 6 Barkevious Mingo OLB LSU
2014 4 _________________????????

Wow, we have made some BAD picks.

Agreed.

Look at the 2nd round, it might be worse

Quote:

1999 1 Tim Couch * QB Kentucky
2000 1 Courtney Brown * DE Penn State
2001 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida
2002 16 William Green RB Boston College [23]
2003 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame
2004 6 Kellen Winslow II TE Miami (Florida) [24]
2005 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
2006 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State [25]
2007 3 Joe Thomas OT Wisconsin [26]
22 Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame [27]
2008 — No Pick — — [27]
2009 21 Alex Mack C California [28]
2010 7 Joe Haden CB Florida
2011 21 Phil Taylor DT Baylor
2012 3 Trent Richardson RB Alabama
22 Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State
2013 6 Barkevious Mingo OLB LSU
2014 4 _________________????????

Wow, we have made some BAD picks.

Dude, that was depressing.

Vers, I gotta agree with Mourn. All I remember about Couch & Carr is them running for their lives. I can't believe that our last 20 QBs sucked. Remember Jeff Garcia? .
He was a pretty good QB until he came here and not to bad after he left. Charlie Frye might have fared better with a better team. I hope Hoyer is our guy. We have a better o-line and better position players now.

Quote:

Look at the 2nd round, it might be worse

Dont look at the 3rd or you will probably slice your wrists. I cant rememeber the last 3rd round pick from the Browns I actually could say nice pickup. Maybe in the 80s?

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If they take Carr at #26 and he doesn't work out? Not as big a deal.

It will be if anybody you passed on at 4 does work out.

Wow, another Weeden?

We didn't pass on anyone at 4 when we took Weeden at 22...

HAD WE... It would of just compounded the mistake...

If you pass on any one of the 3 guys at 4, and take Carr at 26, and those guys stud out, and Carr doesn't, you're getting fired...

The argument can be made if Carr doesn't, you're getting fired anyways... FOs rarely get to draft more than one QB in the first round...

Quote:

When Timid became available, the majority of the posters on here---including you---said teams would gobble him up. Well, not one team traded for him.

You guys argued that they knew he was going to be released so they were waiting. I said that if they really wanted him, they would have made the trade. Well, teams did not flock towards him when he became a FA. Finally, GB signed him.

No one knew of his arm problems at the time. That is a fact!

The lack of interest was due to his inability to read coverages, how long he held the ball, his lack of guts, his lack of leadership, his inaccuracy, and his propensity to check down way instead of trying to pick up first downs.

The guy was a stiff and Carr is a very similar QB. No wonder you love him. No wonder I don't.

Wow, what a pile of crap.

With scrubs at o-line and worse scrubs as receivers he actually scored point while being beaten to a bloody pulp. I can't even count how many hard, brutal hits he took to throw the ball while some guy was fixen to crush him.

Coward give me a friggen break. BS like that shows you don't know what your talking about and just hating.

Yeah, towards the end after years of being beat to death because our front office refused to build an O-line. Same thing happened to Carr and Frye. The most sacked QB's in the NFL. Of course their careers got ended sooner than expected and started suffering from shell shock. you beat a person up enough after a while they will just expect it all the time. None of these QB's got developed the right way or even used right. I mean hell Frye was a third round developmental pick. For us, he because instant start because he was head and heals above a washed up trent dilfer.

Seriously dude stop hating and trashing the QB's just because they got stuck on crap teams. Couch did the best he could with what he had to work with. Not his fault the Browns were totally inept at building a team. Also not his fault they made him play while injured to the point of permanant damage. And for a 3rd round QB Frye did pretty darn good too. He was no Peyten manning and no one ever expected him to be but the kid played his heart out until he lost his nerve taking so many brutal hits which is also why towards the end he just got scared to throw the ball knowing any mistake at all would be his last.

I hope to God we finish up our offensive line for once and stop ruining the careers of every QB that comes here.

Quote:

End of the story?

Why didn't other teams show much interest in either Timid or Carr after they were cut?

They sucked. Both held the ball way too long and their offensive lines took all the blame.

Couch went to GB and couldn't throw the ball more than 10 yards because his arm had been ripped off in Cleveland. Every time he was back to throw the pressure around the end would hit his arm going forward. Shoulder problems were well documented. Name the great offensive line in front of him early in his career before the damage was done.

Back on topic...

If you look at the video, Carr has terrible footwork. I don't know if that can be fixed, but his success in the NFL will be based on the coaching that he receives to address his footwork.

Couch arguments = nothing new to talk about

Here is the thing...........people blame the OL for Couch getting beat up, but the guy held the ball for longer than any QB in the league. I used to time him and it was incredible how many times he held it for over 4 seconds. You simply cannot do that in the NFL. He held it so long because he could not read coverages. Other times, he played scared and checked down too fast.

The elder Carr did the same thing. Weeden did the same thing.

My point is that the younger Carr will do the same thing. Others get blamed for their incompetence. It divides the locker room. It gets coaches fired. Teams keep playing these guys because they were first round picks, but it almost guarantees losing.

Another thing, Timid's arm was crap because of his poor mechanics and not from "taking a beating."

Oh..............and I am not hating on any poster. I am talking about players, so please leave the personal attacks out of the conversation.

Quote:

Here is the thing...........people blame the OL for Couch getting beat up, but the guy held the ball for longer than any QB in the league. I used to time him and it was incredible how many times he held it for over 4 seconds. You simply cannot do that in the NFL. He held it so long because he could not read coverages. Other times, he played scared and checked down too fast.

The elder Carr did the same thing. Weeden did the same thing.

My point is that the younger Carr will do the same thing. Others get blamed for their incompetence. It divides the locker room. It gets coaches fired. Teams keep playing these guys because they were first round picks, but it almost guarantees losing.

Another thing, Timid's arm was crap because of his poor mechanics and not from "taking a beating."

Oh..............and I am not hating on any poster. I am talking about players, so please leave the personal attacks out of the conversation.

Farve held the ball to long and Rothelisberger holds the ball to long. Couch's arm was fine until he got beat down. Are you saying all 20 previous QBs sucked? Only thing in common was bad line play.

Sure he held the ball long the few times he had the chance,because our crap for WR could not get open for a hill of beans. How many of those great WRs had a career once they left the Browns? NONE. Lets be honest here though. He was hit so often after just 2 seconds it was a running joke. I can't even count the times that soon as he snapped the ball he was dodging his own falling offensive linemen.

His arm was plenty strong when we drafted him. He had no problem at all going deep. Matter of fact the encouraged him to.(not saying that was great coaching either) It's also a fact that his throwing shoulder was hurt multiple times from getting nailed. He was bar none THE toughest QB we have ever had and he didn't whine or cry about it till our piece of crap fans embarrassed all the real fans by cheering when he got hurt.

I'd take a player like Couch all day, any day with the talent we have now. With him starting you always knew you had at least a chance to come back and win the game. None of the QB's since have made you feel that way since, except maybe Hoyer and not enough games to know about him yet. That is before Couch got ruined by the Browns. He was the ONLY reason we had any chance at a winning season at all.

You say your not hating but you call him a coward and timid. Neither of which are even remotely true. He might have been a little timid that last season but I think that is because he was suffering from PTSD(shell shock) from being the most most sacked QB in football. Couch was not like that when we drafted him. It's same thing happened to Frye. Frye was fearless when he came here. Then he got the happy feet after getting beat down so bad. Then the fear got a hold of him and he couldn't make quick decisions anymore from the pressure of feeling like he is going to get hit at any time.

This is why I say it over and over and over again. There is no point in drafting a top tier QB until you have an offensive line that can keep him protected. It's not just our history that shows that. It proves true over and over again all across the league. Once a QB can trust that he will have 3 seconds to throw the ball and they have been coached to get rid of the ball by 3 seconds they will blossum into the best they can be. This is why Farmer wants that intelligent fast thinking QB.

Who cares if a QB can throw 60 yards in the air? 90% of all passes are under 20 yards because even if the WR is great most o-lines can't protect long enough for a WR to get open that far downfield anyways. 3 seconds that's what a good offensive line buys a QB sometimes more. How far can a receiver run in 3 seconds especially if the get jammed at the line even once. 20-30 yards at best. If the QB throws with perfect anticipation he can least that WR by a second and give him 4 seconds to get under the ball. Thus the only reason why 40 times are recorded. To see if in a perfect scenario if they can get 40 yards down the field. What should really matter is how fast they can run a 10 and 20 yard route. This is why Hawkins that we signed from the Bengals is exciting because he is great at getting open at under 20 yards. Watkins also runs ankle breakers at times. Man I would love it if we drafted him. Hoyer will have a field day.

If we end up with Carr(I am no fan) Watkins and drafting a Couple of BIG guards and or OT is the best way to get the most from him. Same if we draft my guy Jimmy G. Both have gotten used to poor o-line play and will need a year playing behind a new line they can trust and have their confidence built up to play at their best.

The best example of this was Charlie Frye in 2007. Everyone said that the OL sucked because Frye was sacked all the time, and was getting destroyed in the pocket. He would run and get sacked. He seemingly just couldn't catch a break.

Except to those paying attention.

He ran himself into as much trouble as he ran out of. He had wheels, but would try to run instead of taking a single step up into the pocket. He had zero awareness of what was going on around him.

In the 1st game of the 2007 season, Frye played a little over a quarter and a half, He went 4-10 for 34 yards, with 5 sacks and and INT.

DA then took over, and Frye was dumped the next week. DA was sacked 14 times for the entire season.

Yep ..... Frye was sacked 5 times in 15 times dropping back.. DA was sacked 14 times in 541 times dropping back.

Yep, the line sucked, until we got a QB who could see and understand what was happening before the snap. DA wasn't perfect, but he sure made a fallacy of the whining by some of how the OL stunk. It was such a stark comparison. Frye was the mobile guy, with "escapability", while DA understood how to get the ball out quickly, and how to take a single step to escape pressure.

Who was that poster who swore that Frye was going to be the next great QB under Holmgren in Seattle? lol

Quote:

The best example of this was Charlie Frye in 2007. Everyone said that the OL sucked because Frye was sacked all the time, and was getting destroyed in the pocket. He would run and get sacked. He seemingly just couldn't catch a break.

Except to those paying attention.

He ran himself into as much trouble as he ran out of. He had wheels, but would try to run instead of taking a single step up into the pocket. He had zero awareness of what was going on around him.

In the 1st game of the 2007 season, Frye played a little over a quarter and a half, He went 4-10 for 34 yards, with 5 sacks and and INT.

DA then took over, and Frye was dumped the next week. DA was sacked 14 times for the entire season.

Yep ..... Frye was sacked 5 times in 15 times dropping back.. DA was sacked 14 times in 541 times dropping back.

Yep, the line sucked, until we got a QB who could see and understand what was happening before the snap. DA wasn't perfect, but he sure made a fallacy of the whining by some of how the OL stunk. It was such a stark comparison. Frye was the mobile guy, with "escapability", while DA understood how to get the ball out quickly, and how to take a single step to escape pressure.

Who was that poster who swore that Frye was going to be the next great QB under Holmgren in Seattle? lol

I already explained how Frye got ruined. Yeah, he was horrible by the time we got done with him. He didn't start out that way. Joe Thomas came along too late for him. he was a QB prospect that should have come along slowly. Not been thrown to the wolves his first season just because Dilfer sucked so bad.

DA only did good when he didn't care and had no pressure to deal with. Soon as he had to deal with pressure and something was expected of him he crumbled. You gotta let a gunslinger sling it not try to make him over think it. Several of the games he "won" were won in spite of him, although when he was relaxed I felt he played a much better game.

Mour (or other Carr lovers) - what am I missing?

I've only watched two full Carr games (one was USC, where he was overmatched) -- but what should I be watching for that tells me Carr is a legit NFL QB?

I usually trust most people's opinions on this board (at least, relating to football) - but I'm not seeing it. He does throw a really nice back-shoulder pass. That throw is at NFL quality.

Quote:

really hurt yourself trying roll yourself into a ball to kiss your own ass.

This is going into my Dawgtalkers quote HOF.

ahh, 2014 and still debating the tim couch era in cleveland... that's about right...

couch was surrounded with CRAP during his time in cleveland. that is almost undeniable. no running game, no te's and a couple of 5-10 wr's to throw to.

that being said, he was CLUELESS in the pocket and never stepped up. he was always fading back and throwing off of his back foot. he waited to throw until he saw a guy break wide open and when that didn't happen, he'd throw a check down pass.

so in conclusion, was his surrounding talent bad? heck yes!

was he even worse? heck yes!

we should have taken the saints deal and ran all the way to the bank!

oh, and i wouldn't touch derek carr with a ten-foot pole.

he is a player from a weak conference that wilted in the big games against real competition. that is just FACT.

i'm relieved that bridgewater flunked his pro day, because that just increases the odds that he'll be around at #4.

he is a GAMER that elevated those around him. and he look less than stellar in bad weather games? heck yes! but guess what; he found a way to win a majority of them (example, the game at cincinnati this past year).

the kid is a WINNER, a GAMER and a FOOTBALL JUNKIE. reminds me of another kid from the state of florida who was a special player here.......

Quote:

reminds me of another kid from the state of florida who was a special player here.......

Gerard Warren?

Quote:

Quote:

reminds me of another kid from the state of florida who was a special player here.......

Gerard Warren?

LOL okay, so bernie was from ohio, but i was referencing his college days that the U.

G-Money was fun while he was here; never forget that hit he put on brunell.

Browns to hold private workout with Carr on Monday

Quote:

"I think he's the best natural thrower as far as arm strength and when you're just looking at the guy, natural thrower, in the draft,'' said Pettine. "(He's) very physically gifted. And a lot of times it's hard to bet against the family history as well. You're talking about like a Jake Matthews that it's the old 'don't bet against the genetics.' I think he certainly falls into that category as well.''

Smoke screen? Too much praise for a guy that so much would be perception of where he would be available and who wants him. cause deals to move up and back are made according to those perceptions as in - had to move to 24 cause we knew the Browns would take him at 26...things like that.

jmho...looks like a movie in the 1940's with everyone blowing smoke everywhere!

Hoping this is smoke...

Quote:

Hoping this is smoke...

Browns are visiting Carr for a work out on Monday

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/03/derek_carrs_cleveland_browns_p.html

I will not be happy if we draft Derek Carr with the 26th pick. I will be furious if we draft him 4th overall.

Quote:

Quote:

Hoping this is smoke...

Browns are visiting Carr for a work out on Monday

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/03/derek_carrs_cleveland_browns_p.html

I was just gonna post ^that,^ but now I guess I'm not! lol

J/C

Just wondering, do most that don't like him, do it because of his brother? IMO, his brother got the same beating Couch did. And even if they were not as good as advertised, taking the beating they both did can really ruin a guy.

I don't like Carr because just like his brother and Timid, they all can't read coverages, hold the ball too long or check down too quickly, and play scared. You can't win w/guys like that.

I have read many places that he has happy feet, and folds under pressure. To me that is all I need to say no. We've been down that road too many times. IMO, if Weeden could have handled pressure, he could have been good. But QBs that get nervous fail more than most.

Too many of these college QBs look good until they get a NFL pass rush in their face. If he shows signs of failing under pressure in the college ranks, I want no part of him. It should be red flag number one.

Looking like Carr may be the first QB off the board both the Jags and Raiders appear to be in love with the guy. vikings have been hot on him as well. I think the report on the Browns wanting Carr instead of Manziel was smoke to cover up the fact that Haslam loves Johny Football and he needs Johny football to energize a fan base that believes he is nothing but a turd in a toupee.

Quote:

Too many of these college QBs look good until they get a NFL pass rush in their face. If he shows signs of failing under pressure in the college ranks, I want no part of him. It should be red flag number one.

This is my issue with Carr. I've watched some youtubes with all of his passes from this past season. The one thing I saw, he plays in a one read spread-type offense. Most of his throws are bubble screens.

He's got a great arm, but you can't tell how he'll react to pressure and if he can go through reads under pressure or with time

Quote:

Smoke screen? Too much praise for a guy that so much would be perception of where he would be available and who wants him. cause deals to move up and back are made according to those perceptions as in - had to move to 24 cause we knew the Browns would take him at 26...things like that.

jmho...looks like a movie in the 1940's with everyone blowing smoke everywhere!

Too much praise? That much about him I think is obvious... Except he's not a Hollywood turd like his brother.

I think Carr has loads of talent. I don't think this talent is over hyped at all.

The issue with Carr is his mental toughness. I don't think he has much.

He could still be a good NFL QB but he will need a better offensive line than what we currently have.

I could honestly see a QB not even being taken in the top 15 if teams decide the first tier QB's are not that much greater than the second tier.

All I know is that I like Bridgewater, Jimmy G, and Manziel. I have no worries or concerns if we take Manziel at 26. I think he is worth taking a shot with. I'd even then still take Jimmy G with the next pick. I see nothing wrong with drafting a pair of good QB's and letting them sit behind Hoyer a year or two.

Don't get me wrong I still think Manziel is a high risk, high reward draft pick. But I just like his moxie. Same reason I liked Frye back when we drafted him. His proday gave me reason to have hope he can be a good pocket passer like Vers was saying. I still wouldn't take him at #4 though. If we also traded down and then picked him up I would not be adverse to that either.

If body language means anything, he'd be a 6th round pick...looked horrible in the Gruden 1-on-1

Just clicking.....

I am not against Carr at all...he has deficiencies just like every QB in this draft....but the excuses I am hearing in here are a bit ridiculous......afraid to get hit??? Can't read defenses??? Labeling him with his brother's career before he is even drafted......footwork is horrible...outmatched by USC.....only saw 2 games and didn't impress me........did I miss any??? Probably....

Anyway, lets look at a couple things...some say they only saw a game or two...well if you only saw Tom Brady when we thouroughly confused him, and put a lot of pressure on him.....and a small rookie qb in his second game completed a 34 to 10 win for the Browns.....well if that was the only game you saw Brady play....wouldn't you have said he sucked??? OK...what if you saw Brady's entire college career...wouldn't you have said he sucked??? LOL

What I am trying to say is that there is far more that goes into someone not looking good for a game.....I think a greater body of work is needed.....

Can't read defenses??? Leading the NCAA in yardage and 50 TD's says differently. He read the defenses as they were towards his offensive system....plain and simple....most of those plays I saw in the highlights were not broken plays where everthing breaks down and he gets a little lucky.....no he hits his guy as the system warrants and he got a crap load of tds

Afraid to get hit??? Really??? Do we have to look at this whatsoever.......

Let me tell you what I saw in those different videos.......

First....what I liked was that they showed throws to people under good coverage. Most of these highlights show throws bombs to guys withiut anyone around them for 5 to 10 yards.....Big Deal.....whether the correct decision was made on who to throw to....well it can't be determined in these types of films...you don't have any real idea of whst the coverage showed pre snap or just after where the main decidions are made....but what I saw was a guy who delivered on time to places where his man could make a play.

Next I saw a lot of the physical attributes.....anyone should desire these in a QB....they have been talked about...no need to bring them up here....

I did see things that need to be corrected....granted...it was a SMALL sample....but I want a better pocket presence.....more steps UP into the pocket and less throwing off the back foot. If you don't think NFL QB's do this...including top guys....then you haven't been watching games....but a major difference is when they do this and how often.

Now it may look that I am some Carr pimp....that is not the case.....would I be upset if we drafted him....as long as they plan to sit him a year or better yet two before giving serious considerations to challenging for the starting position.....nope wouldn't be upset at all........I do find it intersting that the one scouting video we are taking many negatives from was made before his last college season....

However.....this does not mean I am PUSHING for him....Personally, if he is still there at 26.....I would consider him....depending on who else is still on the board.....

I really dont care either way as far as Carr is concerned.....I like the kid better than a Manziel and he has advantages over each of the top three....but then again they have advantages as well which is why they are top 3...The point I did want to make is that some of the negatives being looked are mostly point in time issues....looking at microcosms and turning them into things far bigger than they are......and it isn'just wth Carr...it is the season for this silliness....I can't wait for this draft to be over so everyone can . and moan over how much they Hate the picks.......but will root for them because they are Browns.....

Happy feet... he breaks down under pressure. Until someone fixes that, he will be a liability at QB.

Quote:

Happy feet... he breaks down under pressure. Until someone fixes that, he will be a liability at QB.

Far as I know there is no way to fix it in today's nfl. In the old NFL the way to fix it it to make the QB practice throwing the ball while getting hit. You have to do it to him enough to break his fear or flight response. Takes an almost suicidal do or die attitude. Farve had it to spare. Peyten has it. Brady has a little of it though he still crumples a bit.

The only other choice is to build the best offensive line in the game. That one is possible for us. But few front offices have the courage to do it because it takes time and doesn't look sexy enough to the fans.

Give Jimmy G an avg of three seconds and he will carves defense up =)

Quote:

Happy feet... he breaks down under pressure. Until someone fixes that, he will be a liability at QB.

Lots of complaints/negatives about Carr posted here on this thread. For someone who doesn't follow college football... Well? He just doesn't sound too good....

j/c

Carr is "ranked higher" than Jimmy G, but takes way more flak than JG. Does he get the higher ranking because of potential? physical attribues? or what? I have no pretension to recognizing the technical merits of any QB, only an appreciation of the end result.

Quote:

j/c

Carr is "ranked higher" than Jimmy G, but takes way more flak than JG. Does he get the higher ranking because of potential? physical attribues? or what? I have no pretension to recognizing the technical merits of any QB, only an appreciation of the end result.

He just has a stronger arm and comes from a bigger school. Jimmy G is more of an unknown because of the school he comes from. It's a valid complaint. Jimmy is still my favorite QB in this draft though.

j/c

I wish Derek Carr didn't play in a crap system. It's tough to tell if he does panic under pressure or if he's always supposed to get the ball out quick and he just has a crap offensive line...IDK.

His arm is pretty incredible. I can see the attraction. I just wish I had a better look at him in a legitimate system.

Quote:

Can't read defenses??? Leading the NCAA in yardage and 50 TD's says differently.

I think that is BS!

We can all think what we want and I am not saying you should not think that, but I think it is a load of horse crap.

The guy throws a ton of bubble screens. He plays in a gimmciky offense against teams that have terrible defenses. His team is way better than most of the teams he plays. He is a one read qb. He is a sissy in the pocket. Even in the Senior Bowl game, he checked down on an easy TD that was called by the coaches.

I wouldn't draft this guy w/a the 7th round pick. I would not even sign him as a FA. He is a puss. No use for a guy like that.

Derek Carr on his private workout with the Cleveland Browns: "It went exactly how we wanted it to'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/03/derek_carr_on_his_private_work.html

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
on March 31, 2014 at 10:47 PM, updated March 31, 2014 at 11:00 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr, who's high on the Browns' list with their No. 4 pick in the draft, raved about his private workout Monday afternoon with the Browns' key decision-makers.

It was believed to be the first of many private quarterback workouts the Browns will conduct over the next several weeks, including those with Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles.

Carr (6-2, 214) had dinner Sunday night with Browns general manager Ray Farmer, coach Mike Pettine, offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, and quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains, then treated them to a display of his strong arm and pinpoint passing on Monday afternoon at Fresno State.

"They were all out here, so it was good to be able to go to dinner with them last night and work out for them today,'' Carr told Gil Brandt and Alex Marvez on Sirius XM's Late Hits. "Everything went great. It went exactly how we wanted it to and now of course, we just wait until May and see how they're feeling.''

Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.

"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.

"That's one thing: I want every team to feel they got to see everything they wanted when they leave Fresno, so it was a great experience.”

Carr, the younger brother of former No. 1 overall pick David Carr, said the Browns put on his college game film asked his thinking on several plays.

“Absolutely,” Carr answered. “Some teams – I won’t get into who -- give you some of their information and they want you to learn their stuff and then they turn the cut-ups on and say 'okay, where would you throw the ball based on the mini-playbook that we gave you?’ They test you in so many different ways and rightfully so. They should, especially when they’re looking to draft a franchise quarterback. You should take every possible precaution and strategy that you can to see what these guys know about football.”

But Carr didn't have to try to hard to sell the Browns, who've made it clear that drafting a quarterback somewhere -- they have the No. 4, No. 26 and No. 35 picks -- is a high priority. Even before the first forkful of dinner on Sunday night, they were impressed.

"I think he's the best natural thrower as far as arm strength in the draft,'' Pettine said at the NFL Annual Meeting last week. "(He's) very physically-gifted. And a lot of times it's hard to bet against the family history as well. You're talking about like a Jake Matthews (where) it's the old 'don't bet against the genetics.' I think he certainly falls into that category as well.''

Carr, who led the nation in 2013 with 5,085 yards and 50 touchdowns, will also most likely come to Cleveland over the next month for a pre-draft visit.

Question is, will it go exactly how he wants it to on draft day May 8th?

(end)

Quote:

Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.

"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.

So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?

Quote:

Quote:

Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.

"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.

So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?

Just take it at face value. Kyle is the guy that is running the Offense, I'd expect him to take the lead on the coaching staff when it comes to assessing a QB. Now, if Pettine runs the show for any Defensive guy they are considering, they we have something to talk about. But that's JMO

Couldn't we point the same finger at Garcia? What some people are pounding QB's for, specifically holding the ball too long, other folks idolize the same players for ability "to keep the play alive" and "extending the play." Just win, baby. Get this done. Carr seems to feel good. And he didn't have a single "flipper moment" under pressure.

J/c...outside of some obvious guys coming out of college. Payton, Luck and a rare few.

Its hard to take any criticism or praise to the bank - whether its happy feet, btw just what are happy feet...lol or he hit all his passes. All I know is this. Farmer went out and saw all these guys play and practice during the week - usually before n during big games. He was to make the report to Lombardi and Banner as they entrusted this important task to him.

Well he, Pettine as well as Shanahan are checking out all the QBs up close and personal after their review during the past year. See what they have learned how they react to the chalk board, how they react just out with them to dinner. Get a feel.

If after all that they choose Carr. I for one will give him his 3 years before evaluating how he'll be in the NFL. What I also know is that unlike Couch, this team is ready to have a QB - we got the OL not to physically damage him. We have a good underbelly of the pocket which regardless how you felt about Couch...He never had that - he could hardly ever finish a throw with a follow through. We have legitimate weapons and some good talent on the defense where if mistakes happen it not the end. We also have a good Bridge QB not to rush the QB so he will learn, and I can care less where he is taken. I'd like to see him sit...the longer the better cause that means Hoyer is winning. If we are like 1-6 its highly likely the era will begin. I don't wish it to start that quickly.

So if its Carr so be it. I saw him play ONE GAME, I didn't like what I saw - it was mostly dink n dunk. But its just one game.

jmho

Quote:

"Everything went great. It went exactly how we wanted it to and now of course, we just wait until May and see how they're feeling.''

Obviously, they didn't rush him. Because if they did, he would have crapped his pants while throwing a check down.

I really hate that guys move up from these post-season workouts, especially at the QB position.

the guy has tremendous upside and that is why he is going top 10. It is why he was my #1 QB before any workout. I am rarely wrong on these things and I may be on this one but if a team is patient and develops this kid, concentrating on footwork, he can be tremendous.

Of course he does. Then again...............you never quite got the intelligence/vs size and arm strength thing. No offense.

You keep saying that yet you just seem to ignore the reports on Carr that he is blowing people away with his football IQ, maturity and leadership ability. It is just easier to debate the QB I like is a moron with a big arm and that isnt true. You got this hate for Carr that sounds just like Anarchy when he is ranting about Bridgewater.

Carr is a smart kid with a big arm and that is why he is going top 10. Look i like Bridgewater too and he is a smart kid but his arm isnt cut for the AFC North and he is falling like a rock because of a weak arm and a proday performance that was embarrassing.

j/c

This post is a much about Mary Kay as it is Derek Carr. Below is the link to her latest article, in full

Mary Kay on Carr

While the Big Three quarterbacks -- Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles -- are grabbing all of the attention, Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio.

This paragraph here is what really irks me. How is she able to state, as if it were fact, that the Browns would target Carr at the 4 slot? I mean she actually prefaces her assumption with the word fact. Is it carelessness or, lack of respect for the critical thinking ability of her readership? If you're going to make a statement this strongly at least attribute it to some anonymous source. The point being, Farmer and Pettine had gone out of their way to give no signal about their draft intentions but then we get this from Mary K and the PD.

Stepping off my soapbox now...

Quote:

You got this hate for Carr that sounds just like Anarchy when he is ranting about Bridgewater.

I don't hate Bridgewater. I simply don't like him as a QB for the Browns. I'd love him as the QB for the Bengals or some other AFC North team.

His pro day performance exposed him to the world in a very real way. For sure, Bridgewater will get private workouts with teams and he will have to light one of them up to get selected anywhere in the 1st round.

The problem that Bridgewater faces is that he won't get the opportunity to be scripted again. He'll have to go in blind and perform the routine that the team evaluating him puts forth. He'll also have to do it much better than the rest of the QB prospects that will be evaluated by the various teams. If he performs poorly, or not significantly better than the competition (yes, he's in a QB competition already), then his draft stock will fall - perhaps precipitously.

Bortles, Manziel and Carr all performed very well at their pro days and either moved up or put a more firm foundation under their draft position. Bridgewater didn't. His draft position was built on a fault line and the earthquake hit in the form of his pro day. The compound his problem, there are other QBs lurking on the edges that he's now competing with as well for draft position. Garoppolo can probably see a struggling Bridgewater from his vantage point. McCarron too.

I can probably provide some input (although I don't work for the Browns) on why they could be considering him at #4.

1. Bortles may not be there at #4. If he is, they may select him instead if they are intent on drafting a QB there.

2. If they're intent on drafting the best QB (in their view) that is available for them at #4 and Bortles is gone before this, then they could very well take Derek Carr at #4.

I happen to think that the Browns (and just about every NFL team) rates Carr as either the #1 or #2 QB in the class. Ahead of Manziel and Bridgewater.

Those are reasonable propositions. But with all due respect, they remain conjecture. Please don't interpret this as a criticism of Bortles or Carr for that matter. At least you use words like "if" and "may". Its the fact that media and to a lessor extent, posters repeatedly state their opinion as fact with nothing to support it that irritates me.

Education on Carr:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2009298-why-are-experts-so-hot-or-cold-on-derek-carr

It will all come down to NFL Bias...I liked Manziel a lot. Hard not to like, I would not mind at all if we took him at #4. But I know the NFL is biased regarding QBs, Why Wilson went in the 3rd round.

There has never been a QB that went in the first round (modern Era) that was under 6'. Vick was 6' even but close enough to be classed as the only exception.

Will this be the year. I have a feeling Manziel will drop big time. I'm hoping all the way to 26. No clue about Teddy. I always thought he was overall #1 - does that change?

This will be fun and very volatile in this draft.

jmho

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.

"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.

So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?

Just take it at face value. Kyle is the guy that is running the Offense, I'd expect him to take the lead on the coaching staff when it comes to assessing a QB. Now, if Pettine runs the show for any Defensive guy they are considering, they we have something to talk about. But that's JMO

I wouldn't even call it taking the lead. Shanny simply ran the workout. I would suspect our D coordinator will run any defensive player workouts.

Quote:

j/c

This post is a much about Mary Kay as it is Derek Carr. Below is the link to her latest article, in full

Mary Kay on Carr

While the Big Three quarterbacks -- Johnny Manziel, Teddy Bridgewater and Blake Bortles -- are grabbing all of the attention, Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio.

This paragraph here is what really irks me. How is she able to state, as if it were fact, that the Browns would target Carr at the 4 slot? I mean she actually prefaces her assumption with the word fact. Is it carelessness or, lack of respect for the critical thinking ability of her readership? If you're going to make a statement this strongly at least attribute it to some anonymous source. The point being, Farmer and Pettine had gone out of their way to give no signal about their draft intentions but then we get this from Mary K and the PD.

Stepping off my soapbox now...

What do you want beat reporters to report?

I swear that people are never happy. If reporters help conceal secrets leading up to the draft, then they aren't doing their jobs. If they report what they hear, then they are traitors, and not doing their jobs.

She did not say "Browns scouts have Carr written in ink as their #4 pick" ...... she said that they are strongly considering him. Well. he is the 1st QB they have looked at in person as far as a visit goes. "Some scouts have him ranked ahead of the popular trio" doesn't say "Browns scouts" ...... it says some scouts. Given that he Raiders have been reported to really like Carr, why would this be a huge surprise.

This is the stupid season, and reporters do their best to keep up amid rumors and innuendo, misdirection and outright lies. .....

Would it shock me if the powers that be prefer a guy with elite physical tools to one with superior intangibles, but lesser tools? Not really. Most coaches believe that they can coach up a player with talent, but who has flaws.

I would not surprise me at all of a team would have Carr at the top of their list right now. That can change as they have visits with other players, and as the team releases information, either overtly or covertly ...... or even accidentally.

As for how she could report something like she did ..... maybe she has a source inside the team. Most local reporters do.

EO:

This draft really has me going. Even though Clowney has amazing skills; he is not The consensus number one pick. Clowney is the guy though that can change the direction of the draft. He will go top three. But to who is the question? From there things can go all kinds of different ways.

Pure talent not a mock I see it this way: Top ten.

Clowney
Robinson
Watkins
Mack
Matthews
Bridgewater
Evans
Donald
Denard
Mosley

Of course that will not be the way they are drafted.

My hope for the Browns in the first round:

Option One:
Bridgewater and Brandon Cooks (also like Odell Beckham)

Option Two:
Watkins and Garopollo

There are other options I can live with if things do not work the right way. If Watkins and Bridgewater are gone. I could live with Matthews and Garopollo.

I am not big on Bortles because I believe he is a position reach at four especially in this draft.

I know you like Manziel but to me he does not grade out as a first rounder. A sub 6', two year college player with many question marks. In his case though I do not believe the height thing matters at all. He finds throwing lanes. He may worth the 26th pick but really I see him as a second rounder.

Carr's game tape really turns me off. He is potential guy and that scares me.

This draft has got so many great players. There are plenty of guys who will go in the second that have first round grades.

This draft gives the Browns the chance to get to strike gold. I am counting on management to get this right. Maybe it is not my way. But it has to work out.

When the dust settles and the draft is in the books the Browns will either leap forward or fall back.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Carr provided details of the workout, which was conducted by Shanahan.

"Coach Shanahan, he really kind of ran the workout,'' said Carr. "Everyone was standing there and talking of course, giving their input on things they wanted to see. We do their drills, and they really want to tire you out, see how you're feeling, really grind you a little bit. And then you go into throwing routes while you're tired, like a football game. After all that, you do some bootlegs and they want to see how you move on the run when you're tired. Then we do some reads that we have, then they say, 'if you want to see anything else, we'll show you whatever you want to see to make you feel comfortable.

So Kyle ran the show huh? I guess that is typical that the offensive coordinator does that or is it just because Pettine is a defensive minded guy?

Just take it at face value. Kyle is the guy that is running the Offense, I'd expect him to take the lead on the coaching staff when it comes to assessing a QB. Now, if Pettine runs the show for any Defensive guy they are considering, they we have something to talk about. But that's JMO

I wouldn't even call it taking the lead. Shanny simply ran the workout. I would suspect our D coordinator will run any defensive player workouts.

FYI, I was using "Taking the lead" and "Running the workout" as the same thing. And I agree, Pettine seems like the kinda guy that will observe and make final decisions but he also seems like the kinda guy that will want his coordinators to "Take the Lead in Running the workouts"

Quote:

You keep saying that yet you just seem to ignore the reports on Carr that he is blowing people away with his football IQ, maturity and leadership ability. It is just easier to debate the QB I like is a moron with a big arm and that isnt true.

The more I read up on Carr, the more I hear the above statements. Not picking sides or involving myself into the debate, just saying. I've been warming up to the fact that if we don't acquire Bridgewater, I'd make a push to take Watkins and then Carr (which I don't think will go top 10, although I agreed with most other comments). I guess we'll see what happens, but IMO as a backup plan - I'd be very extremely pleased with a Watkins/Carr combo in the first round!

I still think (as I've said since the Senior Bowl) the most-likely place for Carr is Jacksonville at 3. I would be surprised if he gets past the Raiders at 5, even with them trading for Schaub. I'm hoping that Jacksonville will try to get cute at 3 and trade back letting us choose which QB we want at 4.

It's not just people on this board who think the guy is afraid to take a hit. Fans from other teams all seem to have the same sentiment. People I trust for their college evaluations have said the same things about Carr. He is skiddish, like Blaine Gabbert.

I don't spend any time at all watching college football and if I did, I'd probably not watch Fresno.. But I have watched some video (some highlights and some not) with Carr in them. to be honest, I see what Pettine said,, pure passer. I don't see happy feet, I don't see a guy that is scared at all.

Again, this is limited viewing so there probably is something out there that shows him scampering around., I just haven't seen it. Which is very possible.

There is a guy on the Houston Texans message board, I think his name is TK Gamer and his reaction to Carr is very similar to Vers. Happy Feet, runs out of bounds etc.

But it was pointed out, he had a bad Oline at first in Fresno, as it improved his sacks went down. (duh, theres something you never see)

Anyway, while watching the videos it kinda struck me, if we put a running back with him (tate might be the right guy), another receiver across from Gordon and just do a decent job of pass protection, he might be the guy we've been waiting for.

The question is, with his stock seemingly rising As if we always believe those reports he may not even be there at 4.

I guess we'll see.

I agree with you.

Based on actual game film, there's no doubt who the best NFL type QB is in this draft. Nothing trumps how players perform in actual games. Nothing trumps if you can actually witness a QB be successful in an actual NFL style system.

I believe people buy into the changing draft boards and media hype far more than NFL GM's do. At least I would hope so.

If we want Carr, we will have to take him at #4. Reports about Oakland loving this guy, I can't see him falling. If he does fall it won't be out of the top ten. I want Watkins, so maybe someone else will beat us to him.

Ok just giving my observation on how she described the teams intentions. I feel she overstated those intentions. She could have made the same claim on any of the QB prospects and I would have the same issue. Perhaps I made a mountain out of a molehill. I'll try to avoid that going forward. Up to the time I do it again.

Quote:

Those are reasonable propositions. But with all due respect, they remain conjecture. Please don't interpret this as a criticism of Bortles or Carr for that matter. At least you use words like "if" and "may". Its the fact that media and to a lessor extent, posters repeatedly state their opinion as fact with nothing to support it that irritates me.

Oh, I hope that certain members of this message board don't see this post by you. They might call you a liar and since they're on my ignore list, I wouldn't see it unless someone else quoted them.

Here's a Carr Draft that might give him the right weapons:

Round 1 Pick 4: Greg Robinson, OT, Auburn (A)
Round 1 Pick 9 (BUF): Sammy Watkins, WR, Clemson (A)
Round 1 Pick 32 (SEA): Derek Carr, QB, Fresno State (A)
Round 3 Pick 19: Yawin Smallwood, ILB, Connecticut (B+)
Round 4 Pick 6: Craig Loston, SS, LSU (B+)
Round 4 Pick 27: Chris Davis, CB, Auburn (A)
Round 5 Pick 5: Andre Williams, RB, Boston College (A)
Round 6 Pick 4: Dri Archer, WR, Kent State (B-)
Round 7 Pick 3: Trey Millard, FB, Oklahoma (A-)

I think to make Carr successful you need a WR who's dangerous on screens (Watkins is the best), and you need great protection on the line (Robinson at RT) -- then you have the environment to make him successful. Although, at this point you might just want to trade up for Bridgewater/Bortles.

Why do you say you need great protection at the line for Carr? He took 11 sacks in over 540 pass attempts.

Quote:

Why do you say you need great protection at the line for Carr? He took 11 sacks in over 540 pass attempts.

Have you seen any of his games? Hard to find a guy that gets sacked a lot in a montage of screen passes and short throws.

All she said was:

"Carr is quietly gaining steam as a possible top-five pick. In fact, the Browns are strongly considering him at No. 4 and the Raiders are reportedly crushing on him at No. 5. In fact, some scouts have him ranked ahead of those in the popular trio."

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that statement. It seems to mirror what is being reported elsewhere as far as teams near the top of the draft being intrigued by him, and the fact that we have had a one on one visit with him.. (one of our first such visits) That certainly implies some interest.

I just get tired of hearing people run down the media because they don't like what they report. I remember when MKC 1st reported that Browns players were disgusted with Hillis' behavior, and the way he bailed when he had strep. I actually thought that it was overblown ..... but it turns out that it wasn't. She was one of the first, if not the first, to report that the Browns were going to start Hoyer over Campbell. Sure she sometimes makes mistakes, especially when she tries to write an opinion piece instead of reporting facts and reports she has been given by others, (like the "Campbell is a franchise QB" piece) but for the most part, when she reports something, there is smoke, and usually fire.

I probably went a little overboard, but it seems like people start really lambasting the reporters when they report something people don't want to happen ...... even if it truly is something the team is considering.

Quote:

It will all come down to NFL Bias...I liked Manziel a lot. Hard not to like, I would not mind at all if we took him at #4. But I know the NFL is biased regarding QBs, Why Wilson went in the 3rd round.

There has never been a QB that went in the first round (modern Era) that was under 6'. Vick was 6' even but close enough to be classed as the only exception.

Will this be the year. I have a feeling Manziel will drop big time. I'm hoping all the way to 26. No clue about Teddy. I always thought he was overall #1 - does that change?

This will be fun and very volatile in this draft.

jmho

It's not just height man. It's body type. Johnny is tiny. Vick is HUGE compared to him body wise. And Vick can't stay healthy as a running QB. But we're supposed to buy that JM can survive in the NFL? I don't see him being able to hold much more weight either. He could pump up a little, but I don't see him adding 20+ pounds of muscle on that small frame.

Call it bias or whatever, but small little quarterbacks that like to run eventually meet big mean linemen and linebackers that like to HIT.

Quote:

I agree with you.

Based on actual game film, there's no doubt who the best NFL type QB is in this draft. Nothing trumps how players perform in actual games. Nothing trumps if you can actually witness a QB be successful in an actual NFL style system.

I'd argue that it's not clear cut, although I'd say I was more impressed with Bortles than Bridgewater sometimes and more impressed with Bridgewater than Bortles sometimes.

It's not a no doubt thing. They both have flaws.

Quote:

Quote:

Why do you say you need great protection at the line for Carr? He took 11 sacks in over 540 pass attempts.

Have you seen any of his games? Hard to find a guy that gets sacked a lot in a montage of screen passes and short throws.

Stop it. This is just wrong. And by wrong, I mean incorrect. He threw 60 more passes beyond the line of scrimmage than Bridgewater did this past year. Also, a higher percentage of Bridgewater's passes were between 1 and 5 yards beyond the LOS this past year the Carr's, so that gap would increase if you say "downfield."

Please stop repeating the same incorrect statements over and over. It is really irritating. I have debunked this with actual facts over opinions or "impressions" several times. Fresno State threw screens instead of running the ball, not instead of passing the ball.

Here are the number of sacks each QB took over the number of opportunities (pass attampts plus sacks). I do not have access to the number of successful scrambles, so I'm excluding those.

Carr: 11 / 670
Garoppolo: 21 / 589
Bridgewater: 23 / 450
Bortles: 21 / 403
Manziel: 19 / 448

OK, and I've gotten some more numbers from this article that seemed to be so popular to use to propagate this myth: http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum

Excluding the screen passes (33.19% for Carr, 9.84% for Bridgewater, 22.93% for Bortles, 22.09% for Manziel, here are the number of sacks and pass attempts plus sacks minus screen passes (number of sack opportunities... assuming your assumption of no sacks on screens is true)

Sack opportunities: Pass attempts (excluding screens) plus sacks

Carr: 11 sacks on 451 sack opportunities (2.44%)
Bridgewater: 23 sacks on 408 sack opportunities (5.64%)
Bortles: 21 sacks on 315 sack opportunities (6.67%)
Manziel: 19 sacks on 353 sack opportunities (5.38%)

You think Oakland wants to burn their first pick on a QB after acquiring Shaub, in which Dennis Allen has already labeled him the starter? Doubtfully...

Vick and JM just might play a little different. Vick was 3 lbs more than JM at the combine. JM is tough and wiry - I've already seen him take on some licks and he still is ticking.

I don't see him as a run first QB. He show much more discipline in the pocket in 2013 than 2012...what will happen by 2015? I expect him to run that patent Shanahan Boot leg option but I don't remember that getting the QBs killed.

Why don't you liken him to Fran Tarkenton? Cause he was hurt and he had a pretty long and successful career. Cause as for what to expect from JM I hear Tarkenton as a comparison much more than Vick. Who teams game plan was to keep him n the pocket n contain. JM is not a bad QB at all from the pocket.

If he was 6'2 or 6'3...he would be the consensus overall #1 pick. I see his height but that is ok...I'm done arguing little things. I only have history behind me which is why I said what I said.

I'm not going to read a bunch of stats, go watch their games.

Just watch the first 5 minutes of the Nevada game. I can't make it past 3 minutes without wanting to gouge my eyes out. Screen after screen, all of his long throws are off the mark.

Look he is an intriguing prospect but his entire offense was predicated on the screen pass. No stats are going to convince me otherwise. He is like a younger, more mobile Brandon Weeden from a purely physical and tape standpoint. What's between his ears I can't know.

OK, so facts aren't important to you, just feelings of wanting to gouge your eyes out, got it.

Look, if you throw screen passes instead of running the ball , you're going to throw a lot of screen passes. That's like saying any of the other QBs in the discussion's offense is predicated on the run.

Just watched the first three minutes. Not sure what throws you are talking about - 2 bad throws at 1:55 and 2:05, an eh throw at 2:45 -- but everything else is good. The two throws to the corner end-zone are spectacular.

First of all, stats are hardly factual in the context of evaluating football players. Secondly, all they do is run screens, which leads us back to his not getting sacked a lot, yeah that's the point of running all those screens. Which brings us full circle, he's not used to getting hit and everything falls apart when he is threatened with it.

He's not throwing 20 screens per game in the NFL. So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.

Spread, screen system, terrible competition, seems to not like getting hit. He has a ton of question marks, which is why I assume the Browns have been working so hard on evaluating him.

Quote:

So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.

Tom Brady... Peyton Manning...

Quote:

First of all, stats are hardly factual in the context of evaluating football players. Secondly, all they do is run screens, which leads us back to his not getting sacked a lot, yeah that's the point of running all those screens. Which brings us full circle, he's not used to getting hit and everything falls apart when he is threatened with it.

He's not throwing 20 screens per game in the NFL. So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit, start getting hit, historically you get poor results. I'm not naming names but I know you can think of a few.

Spread, screen system, terrible competition, seems to not like getting hit. He has a ton of question marks, which is why I assume the Browns have been working so hard on evaluating him.

No, not all they do is run screens that was the point of my post where I included the numbers, which you immediately said you would ignore because your mind was made up. Carr had 659 pass attempts and was sacked 11 times. 219 of those 659 were screens, which means HE STILL THREW 440 PASSES WHICH WERE NOT SCREENS. Bridgewater (who I'm using as the basis for comparison) threw 385 passes which were not screens, yet was sacked about twice as many times.

Those are facts which invalidate your incorrect assertions. Of course facts don't paint complete pictures of performance, but it can tell you green is green when you are saying green is red.

So he is going to get hit and when guys who don't like getting hit

Don't know Carr enough to get into any discussion. Just thought the above was a little funny. I really don't know too many QBs who LIKE TO GET HIT...lol

Btw is there enough data base to make any assumption of his effects under pressure. Only taking what I read from you where you stated "he's not use to getting hit" ergo he isn't getting hit that much to draw a good data base???

just wondering. don't take it too serious.

You should watch the whole thing. He looks good. Good pocket presence, good touch, good accuracy, nice deep ball, throws a very nice corner route, shows some athleticism, finds the open man, reads the D fairly well and spots and exploits the 1 on 1. He would've looked even better without the 2-3 drops from his WRs. Don't know how you look at that game and want to gouge your eyes out. Was he perfect? No. Was he very good? Yes. Did he win? Yes. 487 yards, 3 passing TDs & 1 rushing TD. 41 points and the win. Would you take that from a CB QB? Yes you would.

Was it Nevada? Yes.

So now it's about Nevada, not his performance. Gotcha.

I didn't watch the video BpG,, and the reason is simple, Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

I'm saying this to you, but in my heart, I'm not completely convinced that Carr is the man.. I think he could be.. but I don't know it.

Right now I feel better about Teddy and Johnny.. Who I might add, have also had bad games..

If we take Carr before the 2nd round. I won't like it. He's a very raw guy, even more so than Bortles...

If we pass on guys like Teddy and Manziel at 4, so that we can take Carr at 26 or in the 2nd round, I really won't like it...

If we take Carr at 4 I don't even know... We better hit on EVERY OTHER PICK. and Hoyer better start, and they better hope he lasts all season...

If you can't tell, I'm not that big on Carr...

Quote:

If we take Carr before the 2nd round. I won't like it. He's a very raw guy, even more so than Bortles...

If we pass on guys like Teddy and Manziel at 4, so that we can take Carr at 26 or in the 2nd round, I really won't like it...

If we take Carr at 4 I don't even know... We better hit on EVERY OTHER PICK. and Hoyer better start, and they better hope he lasts all season...

If you can't tell, I'm not that big on Carr...

Okay!

Quote:

Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

Wow. It wasn't a bad game. Not even close. Most would call it a great game. 487 yds. 3 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD and 41 points for the win. And he looked great aside from several drops, trying to do too much once or twice, and a sack he might have been able to avoid. Other than that, he was on target, read the D well, showed great pocket presence and got the win. So now his argument is: It was against Nevada. Such B.S.

And that's why QB is the HARDEST position to transfer...

If a guy does great against lower competition, how does that compare to a guy who does average against better competition?

I don't think you can look at what they did against who. Just what they did. How they did it, and how you feel it translates to the next level...

Quote:

You think Oakland wants to burn their first pick on a QB after acquiring Shaub, in which Dennis Allen has already labeled him the starter? Doubtfully...

Green Bay drafted Aaron Rodgers with Brett Favre at QB. Good teams try to keep an iron in the fire. when they can.

Quote:

Quote:

Why do you say you need great protection at the line for Carr? He took 11 sacks in over 540 pass attempts.

Have you seen any of his games? Hard to find a guy that gets sacked a lot in a montage of screen passes and short throws.

Do you mean like the ones to Sammy Watkins in Clemson's bowl game vs. the Buckeyes?

Quote:

Quote:

Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

Wow. It wasn't a bad game. Not even close. Most would call it a great game. 487 yds. 3 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD and 41 points for the win. And he looked great aside from several drops, trying to do too much once or twice, and a sack he might have been able to avoid. Other than that, he was on target, read the D well, showed great pocket presence and got the win. So now his argument is: It was against Nevada. Such B.S.

Cal, he said he didn't watch it. He was making the leap that BpG was providing a video of a bad performance by Carr. He should have looked before he lept, but that doesn't dispute his statement.

Don't show BpG a montage of Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl last year. BpG will come away with the thought that he's worse than Brandon Weeden.

Quote:

And that's why QB is the HARDEST position to transfer...

If a guy does great against lower competition, how does that compare to a guy who does average against better competition?

I don't think you can look at what they did against who. Just what they did. How they did it, and how you feel it translates to the next level...

And I think that's what the Browns did by having a private workout with him.

Quote:

Quote:

You think Oakland wants to burn their first pick on a QB after acquiring Shaub, in which Dennis Allen has already labeled him the starter? Doubtfully...

Green Bay drafted Aaron Rodgers with Brett Favre at QB. Good teams try to keep an iron in the fire. when they can.

They may also have thought that spending a 6th to make it look like they weren't taking a QB while getting a veteran placeholder was cheaper than trading up in a bidding war.

I have a question for the the QB gurus:

I know a QB, who throws almost everything 0-10 yards.

Man, last year he threw 15% of his passes behind the LOS, and he threw 52.7% of his passes from 1-10 yards. (in the air)

Yep ..... almost 68% of his passes were behind the LOS to 10 yards.

He completed only 46% of passes 11-20 yards. He completed only 23% of his passes 21 yards and over.

In 2012, he threw 70% of his passes behind the LOT to 10 yards downfield. In 2012, he completed 43% of his passes from 11-20 yards, 34% fro 21-30 yards, and 40% from 31-40 yards. He threw only 68 passes of 31 yards or more. He completed zero of 6 passes of 40+ yards.

Anyone want this guy?

Quote:

Quote:

You think Oakland wants to burn their first pick on a QB after acquiring Shaub, in which Dennis Allen has already labeled him the starter? Doubtfully...

Green Bay drafted Aaron Rodgers with Brett Favre at QB. Good teams try to keep an iron in the fire. when they can.

An excellent quote. (I might have to borrow it from time to time!)

Quote:

Quote:

Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

Wow. It wasn't a bad game. Not even close. Most would call it a great game. 487 yds. 3 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD and 41 points for the win. And he looked great aside from several drops, trying to do too much once or twice, and a sack he might have been able to avoid. Other than that, he was on target, read the D well, showed great pocket presence and got the win. So now his argument is: It was against Nevada. Such B.S.

Like I said, I DID'T WATCH IT.. but if you listen to who posted that link, you'd think he sucked..

I CHOOSE not to be the guy that makes a determination based on ONE GAME.. GOOD OR BAD...

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Quote:

You keep saying that yet you just seem to ignore the reports on Carr that he is blowing people away with his football IQ, maturity and leadership ability. It is just easier to debate the QB I like is a moron with a big arm and that isnt true. You got this hate for Carr that sounds just like Anarchy when he is ranting about Bridgewater.

Carr is a smart kid with a big arm and that is why he is going top 10. Look i like Bridgewater too and he is a smart kid but his arm isnt cut for the AFC North and he is falling like a rock because of a weak arm and a proday performance that was embarrassing.

Mourg, I wasn't being clear. I know he is a smart kid. I heard he is a coaches dream in many ways.

My point is that it all goes out the window when he is pressured. Mourg, QBs who are afraid in the pocket lose their intelligence, their mechanics, their accuracy, and everything else.

That is why I would never want this kid on my team.

And bro, please don't ever compare me to anarchy. LOL

I'll bite. Probably not. Who is it?

Quote:

OK, so facts aren't important to you, just feelings of wanting to gouge your eyes out, got it.

Look, if you throw screen passes instead of running the ball , you're going to throw a lot of screen passes. That's like saying any of the other QBs in the discussion's offense is predicated on the run.

And exactly how have all these types of QBs fared over recent years? Colt, Bradford, Weeden, etc.

You really don't see the correlation?

Seriously?

Quote:

I didn't watch the video BpG,, and the reason is simple, Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

Try watching the USC game.

I am warming up to the idea of Derek Carr. But only if it is with pick 26 and only if he isn't handed the starter role.

Tell us why?

Because of post season workouts? Post season evaluations?

Does it have anything at all to do w/his actual performance?

Do you understand this how we took stiffs like Timid and Weeden?

I believe he has the physical tools to play the position. I also believe he has the mental ability to play the position if given time to learn the craft.

As clevesteve has pointed out, there is a misconception that he threw mostly screen passes and almost no passes past the line of scrimmage.

Carr's USC game, while horrible, was against a very talented defense. The USC defense is much more talented than the Fresno State offense. He saw blitzes he never saw before and injured his shoulder in the second quarter.

If you asked me at gun point, which would be scary, I would say I do not want Carr. I also wouldn't be upset if we picked him at pick 26. I would take a wait-and-see approach. Unlike with Weeden where I hated the pick the whole time.

Warming up to Carr and wanting Carr are two different things.

My preferred QB is Manziel.

Quote:

I'll bite. Probably not. Who is it?

It's Tom Brady. (2012 and 2013)

Brady is the epitome of a short throw QB, but his short area accuracy is exceptional.

I suppose that almost any QB can be competent if he is in the exactly right system. Brady is, obviously, more than competent ...... he's a superstar .... but let's not pretend that he stands in the pocket launching 30 yard strikes. The vast majority of his passes are short, shorter, and shortest, but the team is built to make that scheme work. They take advantage of his exceptional accuracy and ball placement to turn shorter throws into big plays.

Edleman, for example, had 9 pass plays of 20+ yards, and 2 of 40+ yards. Amendola had 8 of 20+, and 1 of 40+. Thompkins had 8 of 20+, and 1 of 40+. Dobson had 6 and 2. Gronkowsli had 10 and 1.

You wouldn't think that by the throws that Brady most often makes. However, their offense is almost a WCO type in the "throw short, run long" aspect, with concepts instead of long, drawn out calls, and quick reads and throws.

When I sold cars, we had a saying that there is a butt for every seat. While I don't believe that all drafted players will succeed, I do think that the offense and scheme makes a huge difference, especially for the QB. In short, there is a best QB for every offense, and a best offense for every QB. That is one reason why I think that they are looking at Carr.He is used to quick reads and quick throws. We'll run more of a WCO offense, with more verbiage, but the concepts are similar ..... throw a lot of short passes, spread the field across rather than deep, and work timing and pre-snap reads heavily. That all seems to fit Carr's game. The more I think about it, the more I can see why they would, at least, take a look at him. He gets the ball out of his hands quickly, and is highly accurate in the short to middle range.

We'll see what happens.

Quote:

Quote:

OK, so facts aren't important to you, just feelings of wanting to gouge your eyes out, got it.

Look, if you throw screen passes instead of running the ball , you're going to throw a lot of screen passes. That's like saying any of the other QBs in the discussion's offense is predicated on the run.

And exactly how have all these types of QBs fared over recent years? Colt, Bradford, Weeden, etc.

You really don't see the correlation?

Seriously?

What are you talking about? Carr was not a screen thrower. He was an everything thrower PLUS a whole lot of screens. He threw two more games worth of NON-SCREEN passes than Bridgewater did, yet people still call him a screen guy.

I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

Seriously?

Quote:

I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.

Quote:

Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater ... there is no talking people off their point.

To be fair, I don't like Manziel very much either. I would probably take a flyer on him in the 4th round, maybe the 3rd. I think that his style of play is going to get him laid out in the NFL and the way that he holds the ball when he runs is going to cause lots of turnovers.

Quote:

When I sold cars...

You just blew your credibility...

Quote:

Quote:

When I sold cars...

You just blew your credibility...

He had credibility?

j/k YTown.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Unless I"m wrong, it's all one game, Right? Anyone can have a bad game..

Wow. It wasn't a bad game. Not even close. Most would call it a great game. 487 yds. 3 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD and 41 points for the win. And he looked great aside from several drops, trying to do too much once or twice, and a sack he might have been able to avoid. Other than that, he was on target, read the D well, showed great pocket presence and got the win. So now his argument is: It was against Nevada. Such B.S.

Like I said, I DID'T WATCH IT.. but if you listen to who posted that link, you'd think he sucked..

I CHOOSE not to be the guy that makes a determination based on ONE GAME.. GOOD OR BAD...

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

I was positioning the point that it wasn't a bad game, that even though he posted it as a bad game (that both and you admitted not watching) that it was in fact a good game, a decent performance, and I posted why it was a good game. I was also making the point that the tired, overused, cliche' platitude that "anyone can have a bad game" had no relevance in this particular discussion because it wasn't a bad game, there was no bad game in evidence, and using the THAT GAME as an example of a bad game was COMPLETE AND UTTER NONSENSE propagated by those WHO ADMITTEDLY DIDN'T EVEN WATCH IT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Throwing the BS Flag Cal.. Sorry man.. I do indeed respect ya, but Damn buddy.. You read me completely wrong... Sorry you don't get it..

Quote:

Quote:

I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.

The point is how he panics under pressure. He gets giddy in the pocket when pressure is applied. To the point that it negatively impacts his decision making and accuracy.

Good QB's stand tall in the pocket under pressure. It's a gift that all good QB's have. That in no way describes Carr.

And that's something almost everyone who supports him seems to refuse to hear.

I'm not a Carr supporter.

But even Brady gets happy feet when pressure is applied to him. He's always been known for that.

If you can get to any QB, you're going to effect the way he throws. Especially if you do it consistently throughout the game.

I feel like we have a better Oline than Fresno State.

I still don't want Carr.

"And that's something almost everyone who supports him seems to refuse to hear."
=======================================================

That is the case on more than the Carr topic. It seems people will listen to what supports their point of view and ignore anything that goes against their opinion.

To the point that defies logic. You can back up every point with links to film, examples that demonstrate, articles written to support; and still people will refuse to be swayed.

When I hear vast swings in who rises and falls on the mock drafts from the combine and pro days I doubt that it really happens inside the organizations. Unless it is injury related or criminal arrests.

The game tape does not change. What did the prospect do on the field over the course of their college careers?

How can a 20 minute workout in shorts against air change a prospect?

Film and trying to get inside the head of the prospect is the key. What does the tape say and how bad does the prospect want it?

Albert Haynesworth a physical force. His true character was later revealed.

I think it would be a good idea for teams to tape all interviews then have them reviewed by professionals. There are many "tells" that the human face can not hide. Interrogation professionals can do amazing work.

I honestly think the Mel Kipers of the world draw up what they think will happen... Then completely move people around, and slowly just move back to where they started...

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I've explained ths close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.

The point is how he panics under pressure. He gets giddy in the pocket when pressure is applied. To the point that it negatively impacts his decision making and accuracy.

Good QB's stand tall in the pocket under pressure. It's a gift that all good QB's have. That in no way describes Carr.

And that's something almost everyone who supports him seems to refuse to hear.

No, the discussion was first about how BpG said Carr in particular would need Greg Robinson to give him the protection he needs to avoid getting sacked a lot, so I showed him how Carr aalmost never gets sacked, then he said some nonsense about how it was because he only throws screen passes, so I showed again about how he threw more non screen pass es than anyone but was still sacked the least, to which BpG said he doesn't care about facts he knows what he saw, and proceeded to post a "crapfest" game of Carr's to which almost everyone who watched the link said was actually a pretty good game by Carr, to which BpG said "yeah,but it's against Nevada", then vers chimed in comparing him to "those kinds of QBs" apparently completely ignoring that Carr is not a screen guy, puncuating it with his go-to rhetorical condescention for those who disagree with his opinions of "Seriously?"

I really liked your post. To me, the actual game footage over the course of a players career is what sets their draft status with NFL GM's. Character issues being the other dominating force.

People seem to forget or overvalue the media who make their living trying to get you to buy into the hype. They try to make you believe the combine and pro day defines a player. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you can find a QB that played in an NFL style system who was highly effective, you have the signs of a successful NFL QB. Once you get to QB's who played in the spread, the water becomes murkier.

A work out in shorts, with no pressure on the field, tells you a guy can play run and catch very well. Nothing more.

My point really had nothing to do with BPG.

My point was what I consider to be the real issue with Carr. He simply crumbles under pressure. He seems scared under pressure.

Someone brought up Tom Brady. Brady may seem scared under pressure, but he delivers in the face of adversity. NFL QB's will receive pressure. Those who can escape the pocket and deliver passes on the move work well. Those who can step up into the pocket and can deliver with pressure in their face work well.

Those who play scared under such a scenario do not fare well. To me, that's the main issue with Carr.

Dude you have taken so much of what I said and made it into something to suit what your argument is, I won't continue to debate it with you. It's seriously embarrassing how far you took things I said and twisted them.

OK so your point in the post where you responded to my post saying "the point is..." was not about the conversation going on, but about a point you wanted to make that was not part of the discussion. I didn't understand that.

I am not an expert .... don't play one on TV ...... and am not going to pretend to be one .....

I have not spent enough time examining this draft class at all.

However, it seems to me that Carr has a skill set that should fit the WCO. He's smart, gets the ball out quickly, and is accurate in the short field with solid placement. (again, from what I have seen, in limited examination of his vdeos) He looks like a QB tailor made to play in the WCO.

What weaknesses would make him a bad fit for a WCO style offense, largely horizontal vs vertical, with screens and slants and quick hit pass pays as the staples of the offense, as opposed to a lot of deep passing? He seems to make quick decisions, and gets rid of the ball quickly. (and appropriately quickly .... not in a panic) He hits hit receivers and allows them to make plays. To me, this seems to be what a team would want in a WCO style QB.

What am I missing?

Quote:

What am I missing?

His brother sucked.

Quote:

Quote:

I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.

I have no knowledge of what scouts are looking for when it comes to drafting a QB. However, as a Fresno State alumni and Browns fan I do have some insight on what he did at Fresno State.

1) Valid points have been made regarding the system that Derek played in for the last two years of his college career and his numbers as a result. It is a spread system that utilizes A LOT of screen passes (the screen has essentailly become Fresno State's running game) and is designed to create yards after the catch. The system was installed by Tim Deruyter after Pat Hill was fired at the end of 2011. However, Derek's first three years were spent learning and playing in a pro-set offense (he started in 2011 as a redshirt sophmore).

His stats in 2011 (in a pro-set offense) were as follows:

13 Games
62.6 Completion Percentage
3544 Yard Passing
26 touchdowns
9 Interceptions
144.51 passer rating

Make what you want of that. Those numbers were compiled while playing within the old WAC conference. However, they also played Cal, Old Miss, and Nebraska that year. I'm not going to sugar coat anything. Fresno State SUCKED in 2011 (4-9). Derek basically had an okay running back, Jalen Saunders (he transferred to Oklahoma in 2012 because Fresno went to the spread) and literally NOTHING ELSE (save for a bad offensive line). The defense was absolute garbage as well. Despite the problems they had, I'd say that Derek had a pretty good season.

Here is a highlight film for 2011. Obviously it is heavily waited to favor Derek, but it will hopefully dispell some of the ideas people seem to have regarding his arm strength and his abilities in the pocket.

http://vimeo.com/34423414

2) In switching to a spread offense in 2012, Derek was basically forced to relearn how to play the position of QB. Depsite having to learn an entirely different system his numbers got better. In 2013, they were even better. This would seem to indicate that he has a pretty high football IQ, is dedicated to study and practice, and isn't afraid of hardwork. Nothing wrong with any of those things IMO.

As a fan who spent the last 5 years watching him develop and play, his issues of concern are his footwork (which I am told can be fixed) and inacurracy under pressure (not so easy to fix). I know these are issues because I saw these things cause him problems at times first hand. A lot of people have brought up the USC game. That isn't really a good gauge of Derek's issues. USC simply had a lot more talent on the field and overmatched Fresno State at every position. A better game is the San Diego State game earlier in the season. San Diego State blitzed him a bunch and he struggled with his accuracy.

His arm strength, his ability to make the necessary throws, his football IQ, his onfield presence, his leadership abitlites, and his courage ARE NOT issues. Derek has those things. His accuracy under pressure......That's something different.

If he fixes the problem, I believe he will be special (what can I say I'm a homer). If he doesn't, his career will be short.

Thanks for the insider viewpoint. I pretty much agree with your opinion of his strengths and weaknesses. I did not stop to think about the new offense aspect, as I remember now that Fresno State used to run the ball a lot.

Hey Derek.. welcome to the board..

j/k ya.. That's probably the best positive analysis on Carr I've seen...

You will be told why you are wrong soon enough.

Quote:

Quote:

What am I missing?

His brother sucked.

Haha! Which makes me think of the Pettine sound bite where he says you have to take into account his genetics

Great post.

he was my #1 QB at the end of the year for the Browns. Shannahan loves the quick slants to set up the mid to deep stuff and no one throws the slant better than Carr at any level to be honest. That is his best throw, he puts it right in the bread basket where the receiver isnt breaking stride. Love it.

I think he throws a good deep ball when he sets his feet and in my honest opinion footwork is his only negative. Big arm and sloppy footwork appear to go hand in hand but it is something that must be corrected or he will never be more than a backup. It would be a mistake to start him as a rookie and that is where the patience to develop a QB is required.

Hell you watch that highlight video I posted on the first page here and you see a guy consistently putting the ball in a tight window and you cant teach that kind of accuracy. These werent passes to guys just running free, he threw guys open. This is where guys like Weeden and McCoy have struggled due to throwing to a spot and usually noone near that spot.

I think he goes in that 3-5 spot as he and Manziel battle to see which is the first QB taken. I think Houston may be the only team that rates Bortles as high as it is being portrayed but hey it only takes one.

Quote:

you see a guy consistently putting the ball in a tight window and you cant teach that kind of accuracy.

To me the best example I've seen of that is the 4th down pass vs USC. I think he's the only QB in the class that makes that throw. The only other guy with the arm to try it is Morris. Bortles, Manziel, or Bridgewater try that and it's a pick 6.

Quote:

Quote:

What am I missing?

His brother sucked.

Yeah, that's all it takes.

I'm glad that the folks that use that never looked into the stats that Andrew Luck's father put up.

For those interested, here they are from the folks at Pro Football Reference.

Well... He was behind Warren Moon afterall...

Quote:

Well... He was behind Warren Moon afterall...

That's true, but he stunk up the joint when he had the opportunity to play. In fact, most of his playing time came before Moon arrived in Houston.

j/c
Returning to the subject of Carr...
I don't love Carr but I don't outright reject him as a prospect either. I have been somewhat reluctant to consider him at 4. But if Clowney is on the board at 4 someone will really want him. Say Atlanta, we could move down to 6 get some additional picks and still take Carr. With Carr and ten more picks the team would absolutely command the rest of the draft. At that point Farmer would be in a position to package one or more picks and get a very good man corner with size to play opposite of Haden. If they wanted to maneuver to select Dennard, Gilbert or Fuller they could without compromising the rest of the draft. In my opinion CB is the second most crucial position to address beyond QB.

The idea of Carr along with an elite CB prospect is very appealing to me.

If we take Carr...

It better be AFTER we take Watkins at 4... Because I don't think Carr can come in and start right away, and he's a guy, that even, maybe IF he can, I still sit him...

Unless a guy like Evans some how drops to 26.. I want Watkins at 4 to help Hoyer this year, and Carr down the road...

Plus an OG in the 2nd round...

I have a question ....

This draft is supposed to be incredibly deep at WR. There are supposed to be numerous guy who can come in and contribute, or even start, immediately.

Does it make sense to draft a WR at 4? Even a great one?

If they really like a QB above all others, then shouldn;t we make that move, even if it's "too early", given the importance of the position?

AJ Green

Yes... you take him. Your team is substantially better for the move.

You take him. . . if you don't already have Josh Gordon.

Solid take man.

Bet you anything that NOONE here even had a clue what Carr and Fresno State ran several years ago. Including ME. Did you know that Vers? You ARE Carr's biggest critic around. Just asking.

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I do not buy this crap about he's AFRAID in the pocket when pressured. That's just BS flat out. I'm reminded of 3 games we've played against 3 of the BEST in the business and what transpired.

Brees. When we beat New Orleans a few years back we rattled him majorly. He was OFF all day.

Manning in Indy. We rattled him numerous games and if we had even a pee-wee offense we would've beaten him 2 or 3 times.

Brady. We rattled him majorly a couple years ago in Cleveland I believe and had him shaking his head all day. And beat him.

Common denominator? PRESSURE.

ANY QB will lose accuracy when consistently pressured.

The biggest thing is when pressured does Carr have the instincts and presence to move about the pocket or even escape the pocket yet KEEP HIS EYES DOWNFIELD?

MOUR? Can you answer that one? What do you see on film?

Quote:

You take him. . . if you don't already have Josh Gordon.

If we are fixated on Carr as our QB going forward, we're going to have to do some manuevering if we want Watkins. I do not think Carr will be around at 26.

Adding Watkins to this offense will immediately give us serious weapons across the board. I mean SERIOUS weapons. It will change the way Defensive Coordinators look at this football team.

This is tough to figure out.

Do we take Watkins at 4 and make a major move up from 26 for Carr?

Do we bite the bullet and COMMIT to Carr at 4 and grab a Beckham or Mathews at 26 or 35?

Or do we move DOWN a bit and grab Carr?

Minnesota at 8 SCARES me if we want Carr. If we have him rated so highly, I think we MUST take him at 4 and not get cute and lose him to Minny.

We gotta have a high probability of getting this right. I sure as hell hope these guys know what they're doing.

If I WAS IN LOVE with Carr, I'd take him at 4. Or ANY QB named Bridgewater, Bortles, Manziel.

Move ahead of San Diego at 25 and land Fuller CB. We have the ammo.

Take Mathews WR at 35.

Borland ILB and the best available OG in round 3 or 4 if we need to give one of the 3rd rounders to move up a couple spots for Fuller.

A draft like that is FRANCHISE CHANGING!

Quote:

I have a question ....

This draft is supposed to be incredibly deep at WR. There are supposed to be numerous guy who can come in and contribute, or even start, immediately.

Does it make sense to draft a WR at 4? Even a great one?

If they really like a QB above all others, then shouldn;t we make that move, even if it's "too early", given the importance of the position?

I would think so!

He gets rid of the ball quickly and that is his primary defense mechanism against the pass rush. He can run but he really gets the ball out in a hurry.

Thanks for your insight. It is always good to get the kind of information that you provided. Inside verified information not a regurgitation of what someone else saw off a highlight tape.

There is no disputing the arm talent and the physical tool set that Carr has. In addition no matter what offense he played in he was productive.

As you pointed out:

"His accuracy under pressure......That's something different. "

You can coach up and improve footwork. Experience and coaching can teach reads on defenses.

All quarterbacks struggle some under pressure. That is why pass rushers are so valuable.

The problem that Carr's tape shows is pressure is one thing but perceived pressure is another. He rattles under perceived pressure. He then losses accuracy.

The NFL is played under constant pressure because the defenses are designed to deceive and gain split seconds to get too the quarterback.

Playing under pressure is the name of the game and that is a problem because that can not be coached.

Quote:

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I disagree.

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.

Quote:

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

Months ago, watching the youtube tape on Carr (all his throws in this game and that game), that's what I came away with. I never saw him move to a second read. He only threw it to his first read every single time.

That gave me absolutely no idea as to how he will do in the NFL. He was pretty successful doing what he did, but he knew where he was going with the ball before he hiked it every time. With Johnny Football and Teddy I've seen them go through their progressions.

That's my biggest fear with Carr also. Folks talk about his footwork, I don't know much about footwork. I just know that he hikes the ball, and it seems like he doesn't go through progressions like a normal QB. That's why Carr has made me nervous this whole time.

I watch Bridgewater's film and I feel much better, same with Johnny Football. I only saw one game of all of Bortles (two months ago) and I wasn't that impressed. But before the draft I think I'm gonna do a bit more research as it looks like we might have a shot at whatever QB we want

Quote:

Quote:

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I disagree.

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.

What about the poster who showed that Car was successful in a pro style offense prior to this past year? (I don't know, because I haven't studied him enough personally, I am just trying to get opinions)

Quote:

Throwing the BS Flag Cal.. Sorry man.. I do indeed respect ya, but Damn buddy.. You read me completely wrong... Sorry you don't get it..

Too late, the entire discussion was already flagged for B.S.

Quote:

I am just trying to get opinions

Well, asking the frog will always get you at least one.

Quote:

Quote:

Throwing the BS Flag Cal.. Sorry man.. I do indeed respect ya, but Damn buddy.. You read me completely wrong... Sorry you don't get it..

Too late, the entire discussion was already flagged for B.S.

Yup

Is it May yet?

Quote:

Is it May yet?

Oh how I wish

The more I think about it, the more I like Carr.

I like Carr, because I don't like Carr.

QB's I dislike as much as Carr typically go on to have pretty damn good success (Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers to name a few).

So let's draft the guy I don't like, cuz he's a pro-bowler

Quote:

Quote:

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I disagree.

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.

You are henceforth banned from QB discussions for your incessant and inaccurate assessments of Jason Campbell. Because Campbell went on to sign with the division rival Cincinatti Bengals, this ban is not permanent. You may rejoin QB discussions in the spring of 2015. Thank you. That is all.

Quote:

The more I think about it, the more I like Carr.

I like Carr, because I don't like Carr.

QB's I dislike as much as Carr typically go on to have pretty damn good success (Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers to name a few).

So let's draft the guy I don't like, cuz he's a pro-bowler

Well, I guess that's as good a way to pick a QB as any

But now that TopDawg likes Carr doesn't that nullify the original postulate that any Qb he doesn't like does well?

Quote:

Quote:

I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?

People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.

You know what.............you can both kiss my behind.

Did you forget that I have been watching the QBs all freaking year long and have posted multiple reports throughout the season?

Did you forget that I brought up guys like Bortles and Fales long before any freaking national media guy did?

I watched the freaking tape. I know what I saw.

Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush. Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush.

That is WHAT I am talking about.

Pisses me off when people accuse me of making crap up.

I could care less of you disagreeing w/me, but I don't freaking make crap up!!!!!

Quote:

Did you forget that I brought up guys like Bortles and Fales long before any freaking national media guy did?

Fales was mentioned as a potential first rounder on some sites before last season started, actually right after last years draft. That's why I watched one of his 2012 games in the off-season. At the beginning of the season after a couple of gamesIIRC you mentioned you got to watch him, you had heard on here that people were concerned about his arm strength but you thought he had plenty of arm. Still think so? Havent heard you mention him lately. I know you know what you saw.

Quote:

Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush.

It takes a man of conviction to stand by his claims when they have already been proven false with facts. It doesn't even bother you a little that the factual truth is in conflict with your opinion?

Quote:

Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush. [

What in the world does Bridgewater have to do with a discussion about whether Carr is just a screen pass guy?

Quote:

Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush. Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush.

That is WHAT I am talking about.

Funny, BpG had to stop watching the Nevada game becuase it started off with too many screens, and others told him he should keep watching because he went on to throw a lot of nice balls.

I've also been watching the QB'S all yr. an if I was going to pick one it would be Mettenburger!
I'm convinced if we don't take him with our 1st pick he won't be there by our 2nd 1st rounder.
He has everything your looking for in a FRANCHISE QB, an if you guys think teams like Pittsburgh,Cincinnati,Minnesota,St. Louis,Dallas,Chicago,& Arizona, aren't looking at him your not paying attention to what his potential is!
He is by far the best QB in this draft hands down!

I just hope he's there when we do pick at #4

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I disagree.

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.

You are henceforth banned from QB discussions for your incessant and inaccurate assessments of Jason Campbell. Because Campbell went on to sign with the division rival Cincinatti Bengals, this ban is not permanent. You may rejoin QB discussions in the spring of 2015. Thank you. That is all.

Well, Poo.

(Does that count as an opinion, Anarchy?

)

Quote:

Thanks for your insight. It is always good to get the kind of information that you provided. Inside verified information not a regurgitation of what someone else saw off a highlight tape.

There is no disputing the arm talent and the physical tool set that Carr has. In addition no matter what offense he played in he was productive.

As you pointed out:

"His accuracy under pressure......That's something different. "

You can coach up and improve footwork. Experience and coaching can teach reads on defenses.

All quarterbacks struggle some under pressure. That is why pass rushers are so valuable.

The problem that Carr's tape shows is pressure is one thing but perceived pressure is another. He rattles under perceived pressure. He then losses accuracy.

The NFL is played under constant pressure because the defenses are designed to deceive and gain split seconds to get too the quarterback.

Playing under pressure is the name of the game and that is a problem because that can not be coached.

Percieved Pressure aka phantom pressure aka ghost rush

There are a few things to wiegh when judging this factor that a LOT of nfl scouts dont take into account. 1 is how the QB is coached to protect the ball. You will read that a fatal flaw in a QB is when then go into a fetal position to avoid getting hit. What they fail to take into account is that a lot of college teams are coaching thier QB's to take that position to prevent the ball from being stripped or fumbled(very bad coaching IMHO as they should be teaching them to throw it away) still it gives the perception the QB is a coward when they are just doing as coached. this can be fixed.

The other major factor is the quality of the o-line protecting them. If a QB is used to getting hit a LOT then they build an instinct to protect the ball or run off. This is the number one reason QB's will feel phantom pressure. QB's can be coached to rectify this but usually require a season or two sitting the bench and gaining confidence they wont get killed. So this is fixable if a bit tedious for a coach to deal with.

Of course sometimes they really are just scared to get hit. It's very hard to teach a coward to have a spine but it is possible. Just usually not worth it.

With Carr my gut tells me its the last one. I can't prove it. I don't claim it as fact. It's just my own humble opinion.

My post count would be a lot higher if I ever knew what I was talking about.

As a social metaphysician here is my breakdown. Call me the hype and dawgtalkers analyst of opinions.

When Lombardi and Banner were running things it looked like we were going for Manziel at 4. People had mixed feelings about it. I believe the general consensus was we'd rather have Bridgewater but the Texans would take him. Bortles was getting more love at this time. Carr and Garrapolo had no ardent supporters.

Lombardi/Banner are gone. Manziel falls off our radar. The new FO makes it sound like they are looking at later QBs not at #4. Garrapolo and Carr pop up on the radar. There is a wave of Garrapolo love which has died down. There is now a wave of Carr love.

Bridgewater bombs at his proday. Carr love intensifies yet oddly no other qb gets extra attention.

Currently there is a debate between Bridgewater at 4 or Carr at ? The problem being Carr is likely to get grabbed in the top 15 if not top 5-10. So between the two quarterbacks we are still talking about who we take at 4 or a hypothetical fairly large trade up from 26.

Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars. There are a few Bortles fans but not much love from the mob. All other qbs are considered projects. A few loony opinions need to just be ignored.

No one is arguing Carr reads the field better than Bridgewater or Manziel or that he displays superior intelligence. I do not see these areas being trumpeted as strengths for him, infact many people view them as his weak spots. So I view him as a sub-par qb option.

If people thought Carr was the superior QB they would be suggesting we trade up to #1 or #2 to draft him. They would be arguing we should take him at #4 over Bridgewater if both are available. I find these sorts of posts to be lacking dramatically which leads me to believe people don't think he is the better qb.

Quote:

Currently there is a debate between Bridgewater at 4 or Carr at ? The problem being Carr is likely to get grabbed in the top 15 if not top 5-10. So between the two quarterbacks we are still talking about who we take at 4 or a hypothetical fairly large trade up from 26.

Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars. There are a few Bortles fans but not much love from the mob. All other qbs are considered projects. A few loony opinions need to just be ignored.

Good post and I particularly loved the last sentence that I quoted.

Quote:

Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars.

I'm not on board (JMHO) with that statement. Jimmy G may sneak into the bottom of the 1st round, and Manziel may go #3 as Jacksonville needs a QB and definitely a main attraction to put people back into the stands...

Quote:

Well, Poo.

(Does that count as an opinion, Anarchy? )

Well, it describes your opinions.

Quote:

But now that TopDawg likes Carr doesn't that nullify the original postulate that any Qb he doesn't like does well?

Perhaps he's mentally trying to reverse the trend of QB's he's not liked?

1st. Who is Derick Carr. Didn't his older brother already play BAD in the NFL.
2nd. My intuition says Derek Carr is going to be a loser loser loser in the NFL, (at least for the Browns,) (Because this kind of guy can't help you in the AFC North)
3rd. I'd rather see the Browns try and find Ryan Leaf, Today! and see if he has anything, than see the Browns bring in Derek Carr!

4th. You Don't draft a franchise Quarterback! You draft a quarterback and they might become a franchise quarterback, if they can be developed.

NOBODY DRAFTS A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK! THEY DEVELOP THEM! THIS GUY CAN'T BE DEVELOPED.

5th. Carr went to Fresno State? Give me a (

) Break! (allow me to explain. Players chose where they go to school. Fres. St. maybe ok for a DB, or a Rb, or a linebacker or something like that, but Quarterbacks ... there is only one per team. So this guy Carr, must have been, 4, 4 and a half years ago, going ...Hmm, where am I going to go to school to show off my top notch QB football player abilities for if I'm so freaking Great, Any top football school in the Country must want me right?

Then you consider, maybe this guy would go to a school in maybe 4 or 5 different states in the Country and pick the top school there. You know, you could argue, Florida has some competition for which college is best for an NFL qb to attend, you have, Miami, Florida St. even in the last 10 years, UCF, USF, and don't forget the Florida Gators.
I mean, just National perception of schools' football programs about 4 years ago. And you can always do this any year.

If the Browns are going to get a QB, get a guy who went to a top school. I mean the military doesn't get generals from "Bob's Big Boy Milatary academy" off Route 66 in Kansas somewhere.
And for Quarterbacks, this is the one position where this kind of thing is the most important.

Then think of it this way. Top 40, count them 40 Qb's that could be going to school in a given year. Ok, top 20. Ok which one do you want to draft, a top 5 guy NO? So top 20- or 40 guys are heading to, / selecting a school and based on national perceptions 4 years ago.
The top guys go to their favorite school best school in the nation, or maybe their favorite one for some reason or best in the state.
2nd level Qb's have to go to a good school that isn't best in the nation because they are 2nd level guys, like someone going to Penn St.
Then you have guys who go to little schools that show promise, guys who go to schools like Vest Virginia, or U Central Florida.
And you have guys who go to Big conference schools, so at least they play in a big conference but on a traditionally BAD football team. Like guys who go to Vanderbilt, or Arizona St. or Purdue.
Then you have the guys who go to Notre Dame, because (since 1988) they want to "feel" like the're in a top school but it's really something they have to settle for.
And Where is Fresno St, on this list.?
It's not even the 3rd best school, football school, going by perception from 4 years ago, in the state of California. USC, Cal, and Stanford. then UCLA, and maybe Fresno St.
With all of this I'm trying to say, that Fresno St. school selection should tell you in 5 seconds or less that this is not (or was not 4 years ago) a top 30 quarterback.
UNLESS! There's always the exception, and the way to "recognize" the exception is to see a guy relatively unknown who has exploded onto the scene, like Justin Bieber 8 years ago, into something really to see greatness in. That would be what you are looking for from someone playing Qb at Fresno St.

But a guy who would , I mean What's his name his brother was already in the NFL playing below average. Has really some explaining to do to tell me why he went to Fresno State.

6th. Derek Carr isn't going to get any better, I really think he is only going to get worse trying to make the jump to the next level. They should stay away from this guy like staying away from something stay awayable.

I already hate Derek Carr and he isn't even a Brown yet!

The plan has worked!

Farmer is the master of obfuscation.

Browns fans are totally confused and will have to wait until May 8 to find out his real motive.

NFL and ESPN ratings will be high that night in Cleveland.

I"m reasonably positive you weren't responding to me,,, BUT:

Quote:

1st. Who is Derick Carr. Didn't his older brother already play BAD in the NFL.

Apparently you are now the spelling police.. Don't ever make a spelling error again because if you do, I'll be there to pick on you.

As for his brother,, Who the hell cares what his brother did in the NFL.. What's that got to do with anything anyway. Quite possibly the dumbest comment ever.

Quote:

2nd. My intuition says Derek Carr is going to be a loser loser loser in the NFL, (at least for the Browns,) (Because this kind of guy can't help you in the AFC North)

That's your opinion, not everyone shares that opinion. You may end up being right.. But for a second, think about what one of the posters on this thread has brought to light about the different offenses he's played in college, think about what kinda players he was surrounded by, think of what his exact strengths and weaknesses are. If you do all that and come up with the same opinion,, fine.

But don't yammer on based on posters that like a different QB that may or may not be attainable

Quote:

3rd. I'd rather see the Browns try and find Ryan Leaf, Today! and see if he has anything, than see the Browns bring in Derek Carr!

OK,, That beats your other dumb comment to hell and back..

Quote:

4th. You Don't draft a franchise Quarterback! You draft a quarterback and they might become a franchise quarterback, if they can be developed.

If you draft a QB high, as in with our 4th pick or trade up to get your guy, you damn skippy you are drafting him to be the franchise QB.. If he's anything less, you failed.

If you take a guy later on, like late 2nd round or later, then you are expecting to develop them and HOPE you get a Franchise QB or someone that can serve as a long term back up.

Quote:

5th. Carr went to Fresno State? Give me a ( ) Break! (allow me to explain. Players chose where they go to school. Fres. St. maybe ok for a DB, or a Rb, or a linebacker or something like that, but Quarterbacks ... there is only one per team. So this guy Carr, must have been, 4, 4 and a half years ago, going ...Hmm, where am I going to go to school to show off my top notch QB football player abilities for if I'm so freaking Great, Any top football school in the Country must want me right?

Big Ben Rothlisberger went to Miami of Ohio,, so freaking what. Lots of really crazy assumptions there...

Did you take your medications today? Just wondering cause something a miss because you brought up Justin Beiber in a football thread..

Quote:

6th. Derek Carr isn't going to get any better, I really think he is only going to get worse trying to make the jump to the next level. They should stay away from this guy like staying away from something stay awayable.

WHAT? OK,, That last part is really

Quote:

The plan has worked!

Farmer is the master of obfuscation.

Browns fans are totally confused and will have to wait until May 8 to find out his real motive.

NFL and ESPN ratings will be high that night in Cleveland.

I agree about Farmer and I think you are right about the Ratings in Cleveland...LOL

Quote:

Quote:

Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars.

I'm not on board (JMHO) with that statement. Jimmy G may sneak into the bottom of the 1st round, and Manziel may go #3 as Jacksonville needs a QB and definitely a main attraction to put people back into the stands...

I'm strictly referring to the ebb and flow of the dawgtalkers board opinion on quarterbacks for our selection. I have no idea how the draft will shake out or how the qbs will actually play once drafted

Quote:

The plan has worked!

Farmer is the master of obfuscation.

Browns fans are totally confused and will have to wait until May 8 to find out his real motive.

NFL and ESPN ratings will be high that night in Cleveland.

charge...I agree, Farmer nor Pettine or Haslam have tipped their hand as to who the Browns might be targeting. I don't know "who" the Browns are targeting, but I believe they will take the best player available at a position of need with the #4 pick..maybe Watkins or Evans.

My opinion of the QBs...the only one that deserves to be picked as high as #4 is Bortles and I think he will be gone before we pick. If he is available, I think Farmer takes him over a WR. If Clowney falls to us, I don't see how we pass someone of his talent.

With the 26 pick, most likely the best QB available would be my best guess. But when we start talking about 2nd tier QBs, there are many who could fall into that category, who might fall well beyond our #26 pick...if Manziel or Bridgewater are available they could be the Browns pick at 26.

If Farmer passes on a QB at 26, it would not surprise me if the Browns go defense (CB,LB) with the pick and wait until the 3rd pick in the 2nd round to take a QB..and I have no idea who it could be.

There are so many ways this draft could go, depending on which teams trade up or down...or if the Browns have different priorities than my guesses...and I'm sure they do.

The truth is, none of us know what the Browns are going to do and those who think they know are just fooling themselves.

I'm not about to sit here and claim or act as if I know better than Farmer or Pettine. I know there will be plenty of grumbling and complaining no matter who the Browns draft.

I'm confident that Farmer and Pettine can build the Browns into a winner and I defer to their judgement...they are the "professionals"...and I'm just a Browns fan, like everyone else on this board.

Thanks Throw, this post is probably enough to make Vers go out and buy a Carr jersey, hell I was having doubts about Carr at 4 but after reading your post, hell i would probably trade up for the guy.

Quote:

I'm not about to sit here and claim or act as if I know better than Farmer or Pettine. I know there will be plenty of grumbling and complaining no matter who the Browns draft.

I'm confident that Farmer and Pettine can build the Browns into a winner and I defer to their judgement...they are the "professionals"...and I'm just a Browns fan, like everyone else on this board.

This is the same poster who bad-mouthed every move the previous regime made. mac, you have always been a phony. You are still a phony. I have zero respect for you.

Cob, Manziel is still my first choice. My original position was one of Carr, Manziel or Bridgewater with our first pick but that we might have to trade up to 2 to get one. Then the NFL bailed PIT, NO and DAL out with an extra $12 million in cap space so the rams no longer had to dump Bradford. Now I'm content to sit at 4 and whichever one is available when we pick.

Quote:

I"m reasonably positive you weren't responding to me,,, BUT:

Quote:

1st. Who is Derick Carr. Didn't his older brother already play BAD in the NFL.

As for his brother,, Who the hell cares what his brother did in the NFL.. What's that got to do with anything anyway. Quite possibly the dumbest comment ever.

Spot on Daman. I don't know if Carr will be good or not but the logic he won't perform because his brother underachieved is crazy.

I guess Indy should not have selected Manning because his brother got deathly ill in college and had to quit football. You can't take a chance Peyton will get it. & Luck's dad was way below average.

Since heredity seems to matter so much I think Aaron Rodgers brother was cut by Jacksonville last year I think. I am guessing he available. WE can sign him for a song and not even have to daft a QB.

Russell Wilson also has an older brother. Let's sign him.

By the same token, should we then say that Farmer's positive comment about his brother is also absurd?

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not about to sit here and claim or act as if I know better than Farmer or Pettine. I know there will be plenty of grumbling and complaining no matter who the Browns draft.

I'm confident that Farmer and Pettine can build the Browns into a winner and I defer to their judgement...they are the "professionals"...and I'm just a Browns fan, like everyone else on this board.

This is the same poster who bad-mouthed every move the previous regime made. mac, you have always been a phony. You are still a phony. I have zero respect for you.

You mean like you are bad mouthing the Current regime for every move they make? Apparently you think you know better than those guys in the FO?

I am not bad-mouthing every move they make. Some are good. Some are bad. The problem exists because small-minded, narrow-thinking individuals don't want to look at things objectively, thus they think that I have "bad-mouthed" every move the new FO has made.

See is you can comprehend this:

I think it is great they went to visit and Mack and want to keep. Is that bad-mouthing them?

I think it is fantastic that they signed Whitner and let Ward walk. Is that bad-mouthing them?

I think getting Dansby was a very good move. Is that bad-mouthing them?

It's called evaluating each move on its own merits. Not that you would understand that.

Quote:

I am not bad-mouthing every move they make. Some are good. Some are bad. The problem exists because small-minded, narrow-thinking individuals don't want to look at things objectively, thus they think that I have "bad-mouthed" every move the new FO has made.

See is you can comprehend this:

I think it is great they went to visit and Mack and want to keep. Is that bad-mouthing them?

I think it is fantastic that they signed Whitner and let Ward walk. Is that bad-mouthing them?

I think getting Dansby was a very good move. Is that bad-mouthing them?

It's called evaluating each move on its own merits. Not that you would understand that.

Good for you...

Quote:

By the same token, should we then say that Farmer's positive comment about his brother is also absurd?

Yes.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.

I disagree.

Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.

If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.

You are henceforth banned from QB discussions for your incessant and inaccurate assessments of Jason Campbell. Because Campbell went on to sign with the division rival Cincinatti Bengals, this ban is not permanent. You may rejoin QB discussions in the spring of 2015. Thank you. That is all.

Mary Kay Cabot said that Jason Campbell is elite. That is all.

Not going to debate too much with you just a couple of things to add in the discussion cause you did bring up some points.

1. I get it about QB factories like Stanford and then a Fresno State. But it seems like a family thing. He I am sure Idolized his big brother who went to Fresno State as well - not a Nobody else wanted me thing. Fresno was where he probably wanted to be.

2. Personally I liked his brother...I know I'll get reemed for that. But I thought he got the crap beaten out of him even more than Couch and he never backed down. But like it has been said - it shouldn't have anything to do with his brother. btw nobody is going to suggest he goes overall #1 like his brother did. He had some skills.

3. Developing...#4, #26, #35...they all need to be developed. We came from the rookie big contract era where you had to start them and develop them on the fly. Now with the controlled contracts you don't have to if you have a Bridge QB in place. They ALL GET Developed. Some have better tools than others coming in.

Which brings us to this and out of your post this is the only thing I will come down on you:
THIS GUY CAN'T BE DEVELOPED

We can all have our opinions on his skill set and try to Predict how they will progress in the NFL. But nobody here can remotely make that statement unless he has a history or a 5 Wonderlick trying or have rep in that regard to be all talent and no football Intelligence.

Actually if our perception scouting is that he can be developed and we are confident in Hoyer so not to rush him. This would have to be my nod on the choice. That they assessed he is very coachable. I think someone like Manziel is destined to excel. I've heard all the its all hype he is too small. But as a layman evaluator. I'm looking at his first year and then his second. Vast improvement in areas that needed improvement, he worked on his pocket passing. Then after the season was over to the Private and school pro day. The improvement in his technique - his history has told me one thing...He is very coachable and the sky is the limit. Carr again I have no idea - I have no history, he seems to have ran exactly what he was told to do and how to do it. How will that transition to the NFL in Development??? I got no clue.

Every QB drafted is in hopes of becoming a Franchise QB...taken higher than others usually means the skill set to succeed is "CONSIDERED" better that is all.

JMHO

Everyone says t hat David Carr was a bust, but remember, he went to a team that had an issue with the Oline. He got clobbered with a ton of Sacks.

Charlie Casserly, the then GM of the Texans has admitted he made mistakes by not getting the Oline first or at the same time. He kinda feels as if he hung Carr out to dry.

I don't have any idea if it would have made any difference in the long run by you never know. Casserly seems to think it would have.

I have been trying to steer clear from saying this but, Carr's older brother had the same disease. The "Ducks from hits" syndrome. Carr was a lot like Couch, bad team or not and yes they took a lot of hits, but they get antsy, jumpy and gunshy about getting hit.

So, while I agree, having a family structure that supports football is a good thing. If we're going to bring up his "pedigree" we can't disregard that his brother "shellshocked" or not, didn't like taking hits (more than most).

Quote:

I have been trying to steer clear from saying this but, Carr's older brother had the same disease. The "Ducks from hits" syndrome.

Just sayin, you would to if you had his Oline....

Report: “Many in football” believe Browns will take Derek Carr
Posted by Mike Wilkening on April 16, 2014, 12:13 PM EDT
2014 NFL Combine Getty Images

Perhaps as much as any other team, the Browns are expected to take a quarterback in the 2014 NFL Draft.

According to a published report, there’s sentiment in league circles that Cleveland has zeroed in on one particular passing prospect.

Bleacher Report’s Mike Freeman reports the Browns “love” Fresno State’s Derek Carr and that “many in football” believe Cleveland will take him with the second of their two first-round picks (No. 26).

PFT’s most recent mock draft has Carr headed to Cleveland, but at No. 4, not No. 26.

Carr, like numerous other QB prospects, has worked out for Cleveland.

Were the Browns to take Carr with their second first-round pick, it would mark the third time in seven years in which they had used the latter of two No. 1 selections on a quarterback. They took Brady Quinn and Brandon Weeden 22nd overall in 2007 and 2012, respectively.
web page

Carr at 26? I can live with, as long as theirs no PLAN to start him right away... Let him earn it if he's better than Hoyer...

Carr at 4? Please no...

I am fine with them taking Carr at 4 ..... if they feel that he is the best possible QB for this team in this draft.

It wouldn't be the move I would make, but given the importance of the position, if they feel that he's the right guy for this team, then take him and don't look back. I see no sense in hanging around 'til 26 and hoping that no one else makes a move to get ahead of us.

I am not saying that I would take Carr, and I am not saying that I wouldn't ...... just that if that is who they feel is our guy, then there is no sense screwing around. One thing I definitely agreed with banner about is that you take the players you like, because if they work out, no one asks why you took them that high. No one is asking why we used a a 2nd round pick on Gordon anymore. No one (well, except the committed haters) asks why Mangini took Mack in the 1st round. When players become Pro Bowl/All Pro, it doesn't matter where they were drafted, they were a good choice. It is even more so with a QB. If he is the right guy, don't mess around that someone else will agree with your appraisal.

What does "many in football" mean in this context?

Quote:

What does "many in football" mean in this context?

Mary Kay and her cats.

Quote:

Quote:

What does "many in football" mean in this context?

Mary Kay and her cats.

Too good not to laugh at....

Quote:

I am fine with them taking Carr at 4 ..... if they feel that he is the best possible QB for this team in this draft.

It wouldn't be the move I would make, but given the importance of the position, if they feel that he's the right guy for this team, then take him and don't look back. I see no sense in hanging around 'til 26 and hoping that no one else makes a move to get ahead of us.

That's what I keep trying to tell myself. They're the football guys, they're the ones making the decisions and they're the ones who have to live with them.

Easy for me to sit here and say that Teddy is the best choice. At the end of the day, my opinion means nothing. If the decision makers feel Teddy is the best choice then that will be their plan A. If they feel Carr is the best choice, as much as I don't, then that will be their plan A. I can sit here and call them idiots, but in reality all I am really saying is that they and I disagreed on the point. Doesn't make them idiots, doesn't make me an idiot.

Same with free agency. I can sit here and wonder why they ignored this guy, or that guy. Fact is, maybe they didn't. Maybe they did their due diligence and figured that the guy really didn't fit the scheme, or would have cost too much, or some other thing that caused the team to not pursue them. Just because there was no report of a scheduled visit does not mean they never considered the guy or did some research.

That said, Carr makes me uneasy. I am worried that he gets skittish in pressure.

That was funny. MK has some judgment issues (her cats are OK, though).

Just dropped in to be a heretic. I like Watkins at 4. No matter who we have at QB, we have multiple targets and a better running game on paper. I see us taking a QB or two in this draft. But maybe in late first, maybe trading up when some dust clears after the first eight picks or so.

The heresy part is this draft a proven franchise QB, gotta get this right, the Man for years to come. How much is a "franchise QB" to achieve, empirically and realistically? I want to suggest that we need something well beyond adequate with flashes of big play ability that improves as he plays multiple seasons.
If our QB is an improved position and minimizes bonehead mistakes, we will compete better. And win more IMO. Is the Man going to need to carry the team, game in and game out, every week of the season for years? I think it only amplifies every mistake and magnifies each weakness. I see a fine QB, with sound judgment helping us mightily. My post, as we continue to flog this to death and revive it for more beatings, simply asks this: Realistically, how much QB do we need? None of them can be all things wonderful all the time. Some of the lower names on the board may be enough, probably not Brady-like, but if they succeed wildly beyond sensible expectations, outstanding! This is just getting to a point where it is blowing out of proportion in front of May, both ways. We need to filter out some of the hype and noise to avoid a BQuinn repeat, but we also need to avoid throwing up irrelevant arguments too. How did his brother do, or uncle or whatever relative has little bearing on a candidate. Some are relative, like Team Matthews maybe. This is not intended to be airtight, and others can pick at it. But some of this speculation is based on personal likes; we are trying to realstically address real need, and part of that has to be degree of need. JMHO.

Quote:

Quote:
I am fine with them taking Carr at 4 ..... if they feel that he is the best possible QB for this team in this draft.

It wouldn't be the move I would make, but given the importance of the position, if they feel that he's the right guy for this team, then take him and don't look back. I see no sense in hanging around 'til 26 and hoping that no one else makes a move to get ahead of us.

That's what I keep trying to tell myself. They're the football guys, they're the ones making the decisions and they're the ones who have to live with them.

Easy for me to sit here and say that Teddy is the best choice. At the end of the day, my opinion means nothing. If the decision makers feel Teddy is the best choice then that will be their plan A. If they feel Carr is the best choice, as much as I don't, then that will be their plan A.

There is logic in those statements. However, just how did it work out when we trusted the FO when they drafted Weeden? How about BQ? Timid?

It amazes me how often NFL teams are wrong. They spend a ton of time and money evaluating these players and they so often make bone-headed moves. Seriously, I gave Weeden a 4th round grade. I didn't like that he was older. Didn't like that he played in a Spread offense while making only one read. Didn't like how he faltered when pressured up the middle. Sure didn't like that he lost his accuracy after being pressured. His big arm and potential made me move him UP to the 4th round. The geniuses that were H and H moved him up the 22nd overall pick.

And we are supposed to unconditionally trust this FO, who doesn't have any previous experience in the draft?

I think Carr is a very similar QB to guys like Timid, BQ, and Weeden. They all look impressive. They look like QBs. Some of them can dazzle w/you w/their arms and in regards to how they converse.

However, all of them wilt under pressure. They lose their accuracy. They either hold it too long and take needless sacks or check it down w/out letting the play develop because they play scared. I am adamant that those flaws kill a football team. Other players get blamed for their shortcomings. Coaches are blamed. It alienates the locker room and you just wasted more time.

I pray that we don't make the same stupid mistake again. I just have the sinking feeling that our new FO will indeed do just that.

j/c

decide for yourselves. outside of USC, this was the best defense he faced last year:

http://www.youtube.com/v/fJzKFuKupbM

Quote:

I pray that we don't make the same stupid mistake again. I just have the sinking feeling that our new FO will indeed do just that.

Don't fret..

All of this chatter from the national pundits is a by product of the NFL's popularity. The typical NFL fan has become a fan of the draft, not just us draftniks. Because of this, the media must spend more time keeping the casual fan involved and interested than ever before. It isn't as simple as spending some extra time talking about the prospects to keep those of us salivating whether they are there or not. The hits on these websites before would have been in the 1000s no matter what the discussion was about. NOW they are getting hits in the millions over the course of 4 months at the end of the previous season, which means more advertising dollars than they ever dreamed they could muster based on the NFL draft alone.

This is a blessing and a curse...Because of this, we are privy to more information than we ever were 10,15, 20 years ago..BUT, we are also subject to keeping the casual fan interested as much as we are. Thus, the casual fan needs more than just information to digest, they need news feeds. News feeds are what drives every single mock draft and Big Board from the websites, and media, both radio and television.

The media needs to report that Teddy Bridgewater is the best QB in college football while he is in college football, because college football fans know it to be true. They would discredit the media as frauds if they reported otherwise.

However, once that player declares for the draft, the real work begins, because many college fans are rabid college fans and don't follow the Pros and vice versa...

So the casual draft fan looks to these outlets as their source for not only education, but for their entertainment...How entertaining is it to read the same exact information daily for 4 months straight? Not very, in fact the web hits would slow to a crawl in the first 2 weeks and the advertising dollars would go even faster.

Doesn't change the facts of tape and what was reported while Bridgewater was in college. Fortunately for us, I don't believe for a second ANY of this information is real and Farmer will be ready for this draft.

My biggest concern at this point (same as it was 3 months ago) is whether or not, the Browns can find a way to get to #2 to get one of the two best players in this draft Bridgewater or Manziel. Because come May 8th in 11 hours, those are the two players that will enter the stage to shake Goodel's hand first...Hopefully one of them will be wearing a Browns jersey with the #1 on it when it happens.

If the Browns can't make a move up...well, then as far as I'm concerned it is anyone's bet who Farmer will mark as his first draft pick of his reign.

Quote:

There is logic in those statements. However, just how did it work out when we trusted the FO when they drafted Weeden? How about BQ? Timid?

Different Front office.. Not the same people.. How do you know they won't get it right?

I know you don't necessarly feel this way, but so far, this front office hasn't really done anything that I totally disagree with. I didn't like losing DQ or Ward, but they put good guys in their places.. so worst case, it's a wash..

Loved bring in Tate, Burleson Ok, Keeping Mack=A+,

Standing on their own, the decisions made sense.

Still not sure that firing Chud was the answer but that's water over the bridge and it wasn't a decision that Farmer made..

So, thus far, the current regime hasn't given me any reason to think they can't get it right.

Quote:

Still not sure that firing Chud was the answer but that's water over the bridge and it wasn't a decision that Farmer made..

In road construction, we prefer when the water flows under the bridge.

Lot's of WR screens and shovel passes.

Watch his feet, especially right after being sacked.

Quote:

Quote:

Still not sure that firing Chud was the answer but that's water over the bridge and it wasn't a decision that Farmer made..

In road construction, we prefer when the water flows under the bridge.

LOL Yes, of course My Bad

He's definitely not a finished product. He is the best thrower in the draft, though.

I wouldn't take him in the 1st round, definitely not at 4. He needs a year or two on the bench before he is ready.

If he reaches his ceiling, I think he's an elite QB. Don't know if he'll get there.

when we trusted the FO when they drafted Weeden? How about BQ? Timid?

just a few quick notes on that.

1. Farmer/Pettine is not the same people as previous GMs...I know I'm stating the obvious but its like saying why take a HC...they all will make the same mistake as our HC's of the past. This group gets the opportunity for their own guy.

2. I don't think BQ nor Weeden was anybodies CHOICE as THE GUY I think both were Reaches for a position of NEED. Both also were the 2nd pick in a round. Its an unwritten thought process that if you have 2 picks in a round you can take a chance on a position of need that is more riskier but you feel strongly they would not be there the next time you pick.

3. Couch...was a mistake regardless of who...Possibly even LUCK would have failed as we never built a team around Couch, we just ignored the OL and made investment in 2nd round WRs like that was going to fix things. Whoever we took at QB as an expansion team would run the risk of being damaged goods before they could WIN for us.

But the picks of BQ n Weeden were just stabs at the Best of the rest BQ to appease maybe? Weeden out of desperation.

This time what is essential is that we HAVE A NUMBER 1 guy in our mind as OUR QB...and I got my preferences but I don't care who they pick as long as its their FIRST CHOICE...if their first choice is gone and they feel a need...my only wish is they don't go for their #2 or #3 choice at 26 or 35...they take a developmental prospect in the mid rounds...NO MORE SLOPPY SECOND for the Browns...sorry for the phrasing but it fit perfect. For the kids its when you get second serving food from the lunch lady they don't care and just slop it on

I want the first choice and if its Carr regardless if Vers n I do not like him much...as long as they are sure and its THEIR GUY - I don't care where they get him. Just get him...not their well he's the best of what is left guy!

So for me I hope we do not take a QB at #26 or 35 cause the odds are he ain't our first choice. Enough of the rest stuff. The odds of a Rodgers being out there is not high...odds are they are a BQ or Weeden type.

jmho

I think carr would be a huge mistake. nuff said. would much rather take murray in the 3rd round

100% agree. Carr is far too risky. Just saying that if he does reach his ceiling, he's going to be a hell of a QB.

But I think he'll get some GM fired.

If Farmer is a worthwhile GM, then he is going to have to get the QB right. If he blows it, then we'll be back to rotating front offices again. I am sure that he has done a ton of work on the QBs, (and all players in general, but particularly the QBs, given their importance) and he believe that there is one right QB for this team.

We'll see what happens. No matter what he does, some will like it, and others will hate it. I just hope that whatever he decides, that it's the right decision.

Quote:

2. Personally I liked his brother...I know I'll get reemed for that. But I thought he got the crap beaten out of him even more than Couch and he never backed down. But like it has been said - it shouldn't have anything to do with his brother. btw nobody is going to suggest he goes overall #1 like his brother did. He had some skills.

Actually, you are right. He suffered more from being on a bad team than having no skills.

I don't want this Carr for other reasons. I'd rather have his wide receiver, Davante Adams, who bailed him out many times by making great catches in the end zone or on long passes.

Quote:

Seriously, I gave Weeden a 4th round grade.

Vers, to be fair, you missed this one. Turned out 4th would have been too high.

It was. I would have taken a flyer on the guy for his physical talents in that round and hoped he would have it mentally. I would have been wrong, but it might have been worth a shot.

Quote:

It was. I would have taken a flyer on the guy for his physical talents in that round and hoped he would have it mentally. I would have been wrong, but it might have been worth a shot.

Nah, I get it. You were thinking right. Was just messin' with you.

With approximately two weeks left before the first round, I'm ready to say that I'm completely comfortable with Carr at pick 26. I've hear all the arguments to the contrary and my eyes tell me he's a solid selection as the second first round selection for the Browns. JMO.