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I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?
People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.
I have no knowledge of what scouts are looking for when it comes to drafting a QB. However, as a Fresno State alumni and Browns fan I do have some insight on what he did at Fresno State.
1) Valid points have been made regarding the system that Derek played in for the last two years of his college career and his numbers as a result. It is a spread system that utilizes A LOT of screen passes (the screen has essentailly become Fresno State's running game) and is designed to create yards after the catch. The system was installed by Tim Deruyter after Pat Hill was fired at the end of 2011. However, Derek's first three years were spent learning and playing in a pro-set offense (he started in 2011 as a redshirt sophmore).
His stats in 2011 (in a pro-set offense) were as follows:
13 Games
62.6 Completion Percentage
3544 Yard Passing
26 touchdowns
9 Interceptions
144.51 passer rating
Make what you want of that. Those numbers were compiled while playing within the old WAC conference. However, they also played Cal, Old Miss, and Nebraska that year. I'm not going to sugar coat anything. Fresno State SUCKED in 2011 (4-9). Derek basically had an okay running back, Jalen Saunders (he transferred to Oklahoma in 2012 because Fresno went to the spread) and literally NOTHING ELSE (save for a bad offensive line). The defense was absolute garbage as well. Despite the problems they had, I'd say that Derek had a pretty good season.
Here is a highlight film for 2011. Obviously it is heavily waited to favor Derek, but it will hopefully dispell some of the ideas people seem to have regarding his arm strength and his abilities in the pocket.
http://vimeo.com/34423414
2) In switching to a spread offense in 2012, Derek was basically forced to relearn how to play the position of QB. Depsite having to learn an entirely different system his numbers got better. In 2013, they were even better. This would seem to indicate that he has a pretty high football IQ, is dedicated to study and practice, and isn't afraid of hardwork. Nothing wrong with any of those things IMO.
As a fan who spent the last 5 years watching him develop and play, his issues of concern are his footwork (which I am told can be fixed) and inacurracy under pressure (not so easy to fix). I know these are issues because I saw these things cause him problems at times first hand. A lot of people have brought up the USC game. That isn't really a good gauge of Derek's issues. USC simply had a lot more talent on the field and overmatched Fresno State at every position. A better game is the San Diego State game earlier in the season. San Diego State blitzed him a bunch and he struggled with his accuracy.
His arm strength, his ability to make the necessary throws, his football IQ, his onfield presence, his leadership abitlites, and his courage ARE NOT issues. Derek has those things. His accuracy under pressure......That's something different.
If he fixes the problem, I believe he will be special (what can I say I'm a homer). If he doesn't, his career will be short.
Last edited by 86wascool; 04/03/14 04:01 PM.
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Thanks for the insider viewpoint. I pretty much agree with your opinion of his strengths and weaknesses. I did not stop to think about the new offense aspect, as I remember now that Fresno State used to run the ball a lot.
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Hey Derek.. welcome to the board..  j/k ya.. That's probably the best positive analysis on Carr I've seen... You will be told why you are wrong soon enough.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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What am I missing?
His brother sucked.
Haha! Which makes me think of the Pettine sound bite where he says you have to take into account his genetics
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Great post.
he was my #1 QB at the end of the year for the Browns. Shannahan loves the quick slants to set up the mid to deep stuff and no one throws the slant better than Carr at any level to be honest. That is his best throw, he puts it right in the bread basket where the receiver isnt breaking stride. Love it.
I think he throws a good deep ball when he sets his feet and in my honest opinion footwork is his only negative. Big arm and sloppy footwork appear to go hand in hand but it is something that must be corrected or he will never be more than a backup. It would be a mistake to start him as a rookie and that is where the patience to develop a QB is required.
Hell you watch that highlight video I posted on the first page here and you see a guy consistently putting the ball in a tight window and you cant teach that kind of accuracy. These werent passes to guys just running free, he threw guys open. This is where guys like Weeden and McCoy have struggled due to throwing to a spot and usually noone near that spot.
I think he goes in that 3-5 spot as he and Manziel battle to see which is the first QB taken. I think Houston may be the only team that rates Bortles as high as it is being portrayed but hey it only takes one.
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you see a guy consistently putting the ball in a tight window and you cant teach that kind of accuracy.
To me the best example I've seen of that is the 4th down pass vs USC. I think he's the only QB in the class that makes that throw. The only other guy with the arm to try it is Morris. Bortles, Manziel, or Bridgewater try that and it's a pick 6.
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What am I missing?
His brother sucked.
Yeah, that's all it takes.
I'm glad that the folks that use that never looked into the stats that Andrew Luck's father put up.
For those interested, here they are from the folks at Pro Football Reference.
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Well... He was behind Warren Moon afterall...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Well... He was behind Warren Moon afterall...
That's true, but he stunk up the joint when he had the opportunity to play. In fact, most of his playing time came before Moon arrived in Houston.
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j/c
Returning to the subject of Carr...
I don't love Carr but I don't outright reject him as a prospect either. I have been somewhat reluctant to consider him at 4. But if Clowney is on the board at 4 someone will really want him. Say Atlanta, we could move down to 6 get some additional picks and still take Carr. With Carr and ten more picks the team would absolutely command the rest of the draft. At that point Farmer would be in a position to package one or more picks and get a very good man corner with size to play opposite of Haden. If they wanted to maneuver to select Dennard, Gilbert or Fuller they could without compromising the rest of the draft. In my opinion CB is the second most crucial position to address beyond QB.
The idea of Carr along with an elite CB prospect is very appealing to me.
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If we take Carr...
It better be AFTER we take Watkins at 4... Because I don't think Carr can come in and start right away, and he's a guy, that even, maybe IF he can, I still sit him...
Unless a guy like Evans some how drops to 26.. I want Watkins at 4 to help Hoyer this year, and Carr down the road...
Plus an OG in the 2nd round...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I have a question ....
This draft is supposed to be incredibly deep at WR. There are supposed to be numerous guy who can come in and contribute, or even start, immediately.
Does it make sense to draft a WR at 4? Even a great one?
If they really like a QB above all others, then shouldn;t we make that move, even if it's "too early", given the importance of the position?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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AJ Green
Yes... you take him. Your team is substantially better for the move.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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You take him. . . if you don't already have Josh Gordon.
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Solid take man.
Bet you anything that NOONE here even had a clue what Carr and Fresno State ran several years ago. Including ME. Did you know that Vers? You ARE Carr's biggest critic around. Just asking.
His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.
I do not buy this crap about he's AFRAID in the pocket when pressured. That's just BS flat out. I'm reminded of 3 games we've played against 3 of the BEST in the business and what transpired.
Brees. When we beat New Orleans a few years back we rattled him majorly. He was OFF all day.
Manning in Indy. We rattled him numerous games and if we had even a pee-wee offense we would've beaten him 2 or 3 times.
Brady. We rattled him majorly a couple years ago in Cleveland I believe and had him shaking his head all day. And beat him.
Common denominator? PRESSURE.
ANY QB will lose accuracy when consistently pressured.
The biggest thing is when pressured does Carr have the instincts and presence to move about the pocket or even escape the pocket yet KEEP HIS EYES DOWNFIELD?
MOUR? Can you answer that one? What do you see on film?
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You take him. . . if you don't already have Josh Gordon.
If we are fixated on Carr as our QB going forward, we're going to have to do some manuevering if we want Watkins. I do not think Carr will be around at 26.
Adding Watkins to this offense will immediately give us serious weapons across the board. I mean SERIOUS weapons. It will change the way Defensive Coordinators look at this football team.
This is tough to figure out.
Do we take Watkins at 4 and make a major move up from 26 for Carr?
Do we bite the bullet and COMMIT to Carr at 4 and grab a Beckham or Mathews at 26 or 35?
Or do we move DOWN a bit and grab Carr?
Minnesota at 8 SCARES me if we want Carr. If we have him rated so highly, I think we MUST take him at 4 and not get cute and lose him to Minny.
We gotta have a high probability of getting this right. I sure as hell hope these guys know what they're doing.
If I WAS IN LOVE with Carr, I'd take him at 4. Or ANY QB named Bridgewater, Bortles, Manziel.
Move ahead of San Diego at 25 and land Fuller CB. We have the ammo.
Take Mathews WR at 35.
Borland ILB and the best available OG in round 3 or 4 if we need to give one of the 3rd rounders to move up a couple spots for Fuller.
A draft like that is FRANCHISE CHANGING!
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Quote:
I have a question ....
This draft is supposed to be incredibly deep at WR. There are supposed to be numerous guy who can come in and contribute, or even start, immediately.
Does it make sense to draft a WR at 4? Even a great one?
If they really like a QB above all others, then shouldn;t we make that move, even if it's "too early", given the importance of the position?
I would think so!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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He gets rid of the ball quickly and that is his primary defense mechanism against the pass rush. He can run but he really gets the ball out in a hurry.
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Thanks for your insight. It is always good to get the kind of information that you provided. Inside verified information not a regurgitation of what someone else saw off a highlight tape.
There is no disputing the arm talent and the physical tool set that Carr has. In addition no matter what offense he played in he was productive.
As you pointed out:
"His accuracy under pressure......That's something different. "
You can coach up and improve footwork. Experience and coaching can teach reads on defenses.
All quarterbacks struggle some under pressure. That is why pass rushers are so valuable.
The problem that Carr's tape shows is pressure is one thing but perceived pressure is another. He rattles under perceived pressure. He then losses accuracy.
The NFL is played under constant pressure because the defenses are designed to deceive and gain split seconds to get too the quarterback.
Playing under pressure is the name of the game and that is a problem because that can not be coached.
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His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.
I disagree.
Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.
If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.
Months ago, watching the youtube tape on Carr (all his throws in this game and that game), that's what I came away with. I never saw him move to a second read. He only threw it to his first read every single time.
That gave me absolutely no idea as to how he will do in the NFL. He was pretty successful doing what he did, but he knew where he was going with the ball before he hiked it every time. With Johnny Football and Teddy I've seen them go through their progressions.
That's my biggest fear with Carr also. Folks talk about his footwork, I don't know much about footwork. I just know that he hikes the ball, and it seems like he doesn't go through progressions like a normal QB. That's why Carr has made me nervous this whole time.
I watch Bridgewater's film and I feel much better, same with Johnny Football. I only saw one game of all of Bortles (two months ago) and I wasn't that impressed. But before the draft I think I'm gonna do a bit more research as it looks like we might have a shot at whatever QB we want
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Quote:
Quote:
His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.
I disagree.
Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.
If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.
What about the poster who showed that Car was successful in a pro style offense prior to this past year? (I don't know, because I haven't studied him enough personally, I am just trying to get opinions)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Throwing the BS Flag Cal.. Sorry man.. I do indeed respect ya, but Damn buddy.. You read me completely wrong... Sorry you don't get it..
Too late, the entire discussion was already flagged for B.S. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I am just trying to get opinions
Well, asking the frog will always get you at least one.
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Quote:
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Throwing the BS Flag Cal.. Sorry man.. I do indeed respect ya, but Damn buddy.. You read me completely wrong... Sorry you don't get it..
Too late, the entire discussion was already flagged for B.S.
Yup 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Is it May yet? 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Is it May yet?
Oh how I wish
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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The more I think about it, the more I like Carr. I like Carr, because I don't like Carr. QB's I dislike as much as Carr typically go on to have pretty damn good success (Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers to name a few). So let's draft the guy I don't like, cuz he's a pro-bowler
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Quote:
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His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.
I disagree.
Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.
If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.
You are henceforth banned from QB discussions for your incessant and inaccurate assessments of Jason Campbell. Because Campbell went on to sign with the division rival Cincinatti Bengals, this ban is not permanent. You may rejoin QB discussions in the spring of 2015. Thank you. That is all.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
The more I think about it, the more I like Carr.
I like Carr, because I don't like Carr.
QB's I dislike as much as Carr typically go on to have pretty damn good success (Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers to name a few).
So let's draft the guy I don't like, cuz he's a pro-bowler
Well, I guess that's as good a way to pick a QB as any 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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But now that TopDawg likes Carr doesn't that nullify the original postulate that any Qb he doesn't like does well?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Quote:
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I've explained this close to 20 times on this board and you still don't get it?
People hear what they want. If it doesn't sound good they ignore it. Whether it is anarchy with Bridgewater or Versatile with Carr, there is no talking people off their point.
You know what.............you can both kiss my behind.
Did you forget that I have been watching the QBs all freaking year long and have posted multiple reports throughout the season?
Did you forget that I brought up guys like Bortles and Fales long before any freaking national media guy did?
I watched the freaking tape. I know what I saw.
Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush. Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush.
That is WHAT I am talking about.
Pisses me off when people accuse me of making crap up.
I could care less of you disagreeing w/me, but I don't freaking make crap up!!!!!
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Quote:
Did you forget that I brought up guys like Bortles and Fales long before any freaking national media guy did?
Fales was mentioned as a potential first rounder on some sites before last season started, actually right after last years draft. That's why I watched one of his 2012 games in the off-season. At the beginning of the season after a couple of gamesIIRC you mentioned you got to watch him, you had heard on here that people were concerned about his arm strength but you thought he had plenty of arm. Still think so? Havent heard you mention him lately. I know you know what you saw.
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Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush.
It takes a man of conviction to stand by his claims when they have already been proven false with facts. It doesn't even bother you a little that the factual truth is in conflict with your opinion?
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Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush. [
What in the world does Bridgewater have to do with a discussion about whether Carr is just a screen pass guy?
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Carr made his living off of those bubble screens AFTER he received any kind of pass rush. Teddy was NEVER afraid of the pass rush.
That is WHAT I am talking about.
Funny, BpG had to stop watching the Nevada game becuase it started off with too many screens, and others told him he should keep watching because he went on to throw a lot of nice balls.
Last edited by clevesteve; 04/04/14 10:54 PM.
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I've also been watching the QB'S all yr. an if I was going to pick one it would be Mettenburger! I'm convinced if we don't take him with our 1st pick he won't be there by our 2nd 1st rounder. He has everything your looking for in a FRANCHISE QB, an if you guys think teams like Pittsburgh,Cincinnati,Minnesota,St. Louis,Dallas,Chicago,& Arizona, aren't looking at him your not paying attention to what his potential is! He is by far the best QB in this draft hands down! I just hope he's there when we do pick at #4
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
His footwork seems to be a LOCK as to his biggest negative. And that's fixable.
I disagree.
Over the last several months I've watched everything I could find on all the top QB's. To put it in very simple terms, Carr is a one-read QB who is just as likely to fire the ball in there regardless of what he sees because he doesn't process information quickly at all.
If we pass on the likes of Bridgewater and settle for Carr...I suppose that actually wouldn't surprise me one bit after more than a decade-and-a-half of idiotic decisions.
You are henceforth banned from QB discussions for your incessant and inaccurate assessments of Jason Campbell. Because Campbell went on to sign with the division rival Cincinatti Bengals, this ban is not permanent. You may rejoin QB discussions in the spring of 2015. Thank you. That is all.
Well, Poo.
(Does that count as an opinion, Anarchy?  )
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thanks for your insight. It is always good to get the kind of information that you provided. Inside verified information not a regurgitation of what someone else saw off a highlight tape.
There is no disputing the arm talent and the physical tool set that Carr has. In addition no matter what offense he played in he was productive.
As you pointed out:
"His accuracy under pressure......That's something different. "
You can coach up and improve footwork. Experience and coaching can teach reads on defenses.
All quarterbacks struggle some under pressure. That is why pass rushers are so valuable.
The problem that Carr's tape shows is pressure is one thing but perceived pressure is another. He rattles under perceived pressure. He then losses accuracy.
The NFL is played under constant pressure because the defenses are designed to deceive and gain split seconds to get too the quarterback.
Playing under pressure is the name of the game and that is a problem because that can not be coached.
Percieved Pressure aka phantom pressure aka ghost rush
There are a few things to wiegh when judging this factor that a LOT of nfl scouts dont take into account. 1 is how the QB is coached to protect the ball. You will read that a fatal flaw in a QB is when then go into a fetal position to avoid getting hit. What they fail to take into account is that a lot of college teams are coaching thier QB's to take that position to prevent the ball from being stripped or fumbled(very bad coaching IMHO as they should be teaching them to throw it away) still it gives the perception the QB is a coward when they are just doing as coached. this can be fixed.
The other major factor is the quality of the o-line protecting them. If a QB is used to getting hit a LOT then they build an instinct to protect the ball or run off. This is the number one reason QB's will feel phantom pressure. QB's can be coached to rectify this but usually require a season or two sitting the bench and gaining confidence they wont get killed. So this is fixable if a bit tedious for a coach to deal with.
Of course sometimes they really are just scared to get hit. It's very hard to teach a coward to have a spine but it is possible. Just usually not worth it.
With Carr my gut tells me its the last one. I can't prove it. I don't claim it as fact. It's just my own humble opinion.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
My post count would be a lot higher if I ever knew what I was talking about.
As a social metaphysician here is my breakdown. Call me the hype and dawgtalkers analyst of opinions.
When Lombardi and Banner were running things it looked like we were going for Manziel at 4. People had mixed feelings about it. I believe the general consensus was we'd rather have Bridgewater but the Texans would take him. Bortles was getting more love at this time. Carr and Garrapolo had no ardent supporters.
Lombardi/Banner are gone. Manziel falls off our radar. The new FO makes it sound like they are looking at later QBs not at #4. Garrapolo and Carr pop up on the radar. There is a wave of Garrapolo love which has died down. There is now a wave of Carr love.
Bridgewater bombs at his proday. Carr love intensifies yet oddly no other qb gets extra attention.
Currently there is a debate between Bridgewater at 4 or Carr at ? The problem being Carr is likely to get grabbed in the top 15 if not top 5-10. So between the two quarterbacks we are still talking about who we take at 4 or a hypothetical fairly large trade up from 26.
Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars. There are a few Bortles fans but not much love from the mob. All other qbs are considered projects. A few loony opinions need to just be ignored.
No one is arguing Carr reads the field better than Bridgewater or Manziel or that he displays superior intelligence. I do not see these areas being trumpeted as strengths for him, infact many people view them as his weak spots. So I view him as a sub-par qb option.
If people thought Carr was the superior QB they would be suggesting we trade up to #1 or #2 to draft him. They would be arguing we should take him at #4 over Bridgewater if both are available. I find these sorts of posts to be lacking dramatically which leads me to believe people don't think he is the better qb.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
Quote:
Currently there is a debate between Bridgewater at 4 or Carr at ? The problem being Carr is likely to get grabbed in the top 15 if not top 5-10. So between the two quarterbacks we are still talking about who we take at 4 or a hypothetical fairly large trade up from 26.
Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars. There are a few Bortles fans but not much love from the mob. All other qbs are considered projects. A few loony opinions need to just be ignored.
Good post and I particularly loved the last sentence that I quoted.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,946 Likes: 70
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,946 Likes: 70 |
Quote:
Manziel, Garrapolo currently off most radars.
I'm not on board (JMHO) with that statement. Jimmy G may sneak into the bottom of the 1st round, and Manziel may go #3 as Jacksonville needs a QB and definitely a main attraction to put people back into the stands...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Well, Poo.
(Does that count as an opinion, Anarchy? )
Well, it describes your opinions. 
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