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It's sad when you think about it, really. From my perspective, I just don't understand how someone could walk out like that.
My son is 1.5 years old, and sure, getting him to this point has been the most difficult, taxing, sleep-depriving experience of my life, but it's also been the absolute greatest experience of my life, by far.
He's my little buddy, and I wish I could spend every minute with him. I can't imagine the opposite.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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My father has rejoined our lives, (well, mine, and my brother who lives in town) starting a few years ago. I never thought that I would ever be able to forgive him, but eventually I have been able to do so. (even though I cannot forget what he did) However, I have come to the conclusion that I am perfectly happy with who I grew up to be, (except for my back, obviously) and I might not be the same person today if he had stuck around.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
i'm still searching for the answer as to why this is evening happening in our communities. hell, its reaching bad in you guys(white) as well.
fathers just bouncing out. having to hunt them down through court to pay child support. what the hell is the cause of that?
A lot of people are quick to blame the mom. "She shouldn't have kids..."
I'm white and my dad skipped out. He was college-educated, had a great job. Textbook Christian Marriage. He left and dodged child support.
Then consider welfare...my mom had no chance of supporting herself and 2 young kids. Her job experience was a homemaker. Her education was helping my dad while he got his degree. We needed welfare for a few years. Since then my mom has worked 30 years and my brother and I have worked our entire adult lives.
Some folks call us "Takers." But That's 60 years (and counting) of repayment for 2 years of food stamps and awful housing.
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I hear ya, YTown.
I've stayed in contact with my dad all along, but I quickly learned I was better off not having him around.
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Quote:
Then consider welfare...my mom had no chance of supporting herself and 2 young kids. Her job experience was a homemaker. Her education was helping my dad while he got his degree. We needed welfare for a few years. Since then my mom has worked 30 years and my brother and I have worked our entire adult lives.
Some folks call us "Takers." But That's 60 years (and counting) of repayment for 2 years of food stamps and awful housing.
That's the way the system is supposed to work. You use it if you need it, and do everything to get off the system. I know several people who have been on benefits and gotten out of the system, myself included after an extended unemployment session of my life.
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I disagree, as I don't think anyone would call you "takers" after hearing your story. I think they'd applaud you and your family for digging yourselves out of a really crappy situation, that isn't your doing. Definitely applause for that.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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I'd really like to see the numbers.
How many folks have a backstory like Don C's... and what % are the true 'takers?'
For years, I've suspected that "welfare cheats" constitute a much smaller % of the total number of folks 'on the dole' than we've been scared into believing.
No sane person can deny that cheats exist, but I also believe that there is also a good deal of 'dog whistle politics' that have pushed this angle for at least 2 generations.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Quote:
I'd really like to see the numbers.
How many folks have a backstory like Don C's... and what % are the true 'takers?'
For years, I've suspected that "welfare cheats" constitute a much smaller % of the total number of folks 'on the dole' than we've been scared into believing.
No sane person can deny that cheats exist, but I also believe that there is also a good deal of 'dog whistle politics' that have pushed this angle for at least 2 generations.
I certainly wouldn't call coyote a "taker". Not by any stretch. The system is there for exactly what his mom used it for: To help people at least get by until they can improve their situation. Hey, that's what it's for.
However, I disagree with you that the number of "takers" is smaller than what we've been told and/or led to believe. I base that only on what I see here (and KNOW), and what I've seen in small areas (and been told by people living there) in other areas.
I could give specifics, but probably won't. And I know I'm talking about just a few examples. Take it for what it's worth.
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all good. Our conversation is precisely WHY I'd like to see some "official" numbers. Too much of what we think/feel/believe is based on 'perception'... and I've been misled in the past. That's why I like hard data... I HATE believing something that turns out to be false (or half-true, or innocently erroneous, or....) 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Quote:
I'd really like to see the numbers.
How many folks have a backstory like Don C's... and what % are the true 'takers?'
For years, I've suspected that "welfare cheats" constitute a much smaller % of the total number of folks 'on the dole' than we've been scared into believing.
No sane person can deny that cheats exist, but I also believe that there is also a good deal of 'dog whistle politics' that have pushed this angle for at least 2 generations.
I suppose that it depends on what you consider a welfare cheat, or an unemployment cheat for that matter.
I have knows a lot of people who went on unemployment, for example, and who decided that they would take a little vacation, so they went out and filled out applications, got their forms signed, and told employers that they had accepted a job when they called for an interview. I had numerous people come into my restaurants and ask me to "just sign off" on their job form ..... you know .... to save everyone time. They didn't even want to take the time to fill out an application. I told them no, and if they did fill out an application, it went in my "do not hire" file .... but I made them do what they were supposed to do to get the signature. I am sure that some forged the information, or had someone forge it for them, because that was easier than actually doing what they were supposed to do. I always loved getting a call from the Unemployment Bureau, or Jobs and Family Services, usually during a busy time, asking me if I remember a certain person coming in.  yeah, I remember them all. I always asked if they could read my signature, because if they could, then I didn't sign it. 
I know a lot of women who live with their boyfriends, in direct opposition to their housing agreements, and/or their benefit statements. When they apply for benefits, they are supposed to declare the income for everyone in the household. Many don't, and just pretend that the boyfriend, whose fancy car they drive around in, doesn't really exist.
I think that there is a lot of cheating ...... but that much is "smaller" cheating, like the examples I just gave. There is also outright fraud,for example, I know of many people who owned corner stores in the city who used to buy food stamps left and right. They couldn't turn them in with their receipts, because they had to show that they were used for eligible items, but they would go to other stores, and buy pop on sale to re-sell at their stores, and so on. I always had to gringe when I would see a guy who owned one of those little corner store at a grocery store, buying pop by the cartload ..... and paying with food stamps. However, when you pay 40-50 cents on the dollar, it makes it cheaper to supply your store that way than buying it all through the distributor. That is certainly cheating. I don't know how much of that goes on today with the food stamp cards, but I bet that there is a fair amount. When someone wants to cheat the system, they usually find a way.
Some of that may even be understandable, for example, if a woman needs TP for her kids, but has no cash, the store owner who lets her use food stamp dollars, even at a 50% rate of exchange, is doing her a favor. I actually think that a person receiving food stamps should be able to use a small portion of their benefit for emergency paper supplies, soap, or tooth paste. However, as the system currently works, that is illegal.
I know of people who had section 8 housing, who let other people move in with them if they "split the rent". (which is against the rules) That's cheating. I know of another girl who sublet her section 8 unit because she moved in with her boyfriend. (to his house) It is amazing some of the stuff you hear working at a store that draws heavily from the inner city.
I am firm in my belief that there is a great deal of cheating going on, because I have seen it with my own 2 eyes. While much of it is relatively minor, it is still cheating. Other is really big time cheating, that should send someone to jail. (anything where fraud is committed, like buying food stamps, or subletting a section 8 unit)
It is not everyone. There were many people almost desperate for a job. They wanted to work, and would have done any job I had available, and worked any hours. Unfortunately, (for them) I usually had a maximum of 1-4 positions open at any time (after my initial hiring spree) and hundreds of active applications. Part of me can see how.why people would give up and try to cheat, but that really doesn't excuse the behavior.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My guess (and that's all it is) would be somewhere in the middle of you and Clemmy.
I also have a feeling that outright welfare "fraud" is lower than what folks will scream about on TV, but that there is quite a bit of "cheating" (the minor stuff that is innocent or might not be worth pursuing).
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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Sadly, I would doubt any "official" numbers - because, well, it would probably make gov't. look bad
And as for my "experience", if you want to call it that - they are all white people (had to throw that in for swish.)
Were you aware that if you go out, have a drink, and get sideswiped on your way home, even though you didn't do anything wrong........that very well will be labeled as an "alcohol related" accident?
Do you believe the number of rapes reported is accurate? I don't. And I'm not talking the "fuzzy" rapes.......I'm talking the rapes - true rapes, that aren't even reported.
I guess I'm getting cynical in my old age. I don't believe any "official" gov't. number. After all, if it makes the gov't. look bad, their solution is "we just need more money"
OR, take the unemployment rate - if it makes the gov't. look bad, they simply change how they calculate unemployment.
Take our debt - what business is allowed to keep 3 or more different sets of books? None. Well, other than the federal gov't. (hey, how do you think Clinton had an almost balanced budget? Took from s.s., AND turned turned private debt (owed to other countries) and turned it into public debt (owed to ourselves), and called it a surplus that reduced the debt - even though it didn't.)
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There are some good posts on this thread. And others are are revealing for their lack of commitment.
Clem, your story moved me. You'll always be my friend.
I think Petey's post is correct. I am a teacher, too. The inner city schools actually do get more funds than suburban schools. We were always taught it was the other way around.
I am of the opinion that all children are afforded a wonderful opportunity to educate themselves and make a better life. I sure as heck do not blame the system for their failures.
I look at my wife's situation. She is Hispanic. They receive more prejudice than any other current group in our country. Her father left when she was 2. Her mother ran around. She was passed around from one family member to another after her grandparents were killed in a fire they started after drinking the night away. She was sexually abused by an uncle. Her sister is on welfare and we send her an extra $1,000 a month. Her brother has had so many DUI's and driving w/out a license, etc that the last time I saw him he was wearing an ankle bracelet and he got drunk anyway and took off in someone's car. We send him money several times a year to bail him out of jail or to pay his rent. We send my wife's mother money all the time and recently spent over $30,000 to upgrade her home, which was falling apart.
My wife's siblings fell prey to the trappings of poverty. My wife had different ideas while growing up. She wore newspapers as her shoes. She walked to school and passed a shoe store every day. She vowed she would go in there one day and buy shoes w/out ever looking at the price tags.
Believe me, she has realized that goal......LOL.......hundreds of shoes. Is that shallow? Perhaps? But, she had a goal and she has achieved it. She realized early on that education was her way out. She earned outstanding grades and kept her nose clean. She earned a full scholarship to Pitt. She went to nursing school and later anesthesia school. She makes over $300,000 a year and can do what she wants to do. I am very proud of her and I hold her in high regard for her character.
Why am I telling you this story? No, it's not to brag about my wife. We don't even get along that great. But, I respect the hell out of her. And I want to tell you that the opportunities are there for ANYONE who desires to improve himself or herself.
This country is flawed in many ways. Yet, it is the greatest country in the world because we can start from nothing and end up at the top of the world.
It demands effort. It takes initiative. It requires perseverance. It calls for flexibility in dealing w/life's challenges, but daggone it............it can be done if you are strong enough and willing to overcome the challenges that life has presented you.
It's not about race. It's about wanting to succeed and not fall prey to the same mistakes that your ancestors have fallen to. Are things tougher for someone like my wife? Heck yeah, but success is not unachievable.
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Nice post Vers. My mom taught elementary school (everything from K-5, severe behavior classes, learning disability classes) 27 years in Toledo Public Schools and some of the stories I have heard over the years are astonishing. And as usual Clem, incredible post - you are an amazing individual. Hope you can make it to a game sometime again and hang out with us at our tailgate.
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God Bless your Mother! Teaching Severe Behavior Classes is more challenging than any other job I have seen. She must be an amazing woman!
And yeah..................Clem is also amazing! He is a really cool guy.
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J/C I've struggled with posting a reply in this thread. Atticus Finch sums it up nicely for me. Quote:
“You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.”
Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird
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That's one of my all-time favorite books!! Well done.
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Quote:
Why am I telling you this story? No, it's not to brag about my wife. We don't even get along that great. But, I respect the hell out of her. And I want to tell you that the opportunities are there for ANYONE who desires to improve himself or herself.
This country is flawed in many ways. Yet, it is the greatest country in the world because we can start from nothing and end up at the top of the world.
It demands effort. It takes initiative. It requires perseverance. It calls for flexibility in dealing w/life's challenges, but daggone it............it can be done if you are strong enough and willing to overcome the challenges that life has presented you.
It's not about race. It's about wanting to succeed and not fall prey to the same mistakes that your ancestors have fallen to. Are things tougher for someone like my wife? Heck yeah, but success is not unachievable.
I agree with all of this. As I feel, people are dealt a hand. Not everybody has the same luck in that sense, but you still play your cards to win (meaning succeeding in your goals and dreams). You don't fold in the game of life.
We have this mentality that we can throw money at problems and that'll fix them. That's not how it works. Not at all. People need to recognize that there are opportunities out there, and with hard work they can achieve their goals. One major thing I've recognized, is that half the battle is finding the path to success. Just how to do it. Once that's set in place, you just have to follow the path.
Also Vers. I like that you have a successful Hispanic Wife from an upbringing that wasn't necessarily easy. Something we have in common, as I've done some teaching (I much prefer tugboating and tankering, which is moving petroleum on and off the barge). My g/f is also Hispanic, and she came with very little to this country at the age of 13. Including not speaking English (which speaking wise, she's better at than me. Writing I still win, I'm good at writing a paper). While I make more than she does, but she can certainly support herself and if she wanted to she could make more. She's well educated and a very capable person. Her family lives near the projects, but she is one of those that came here, made the most of her opportunity, and unless something seriously goes wrong, she will be better off than her mom.
People can achieve all that they want, they just have to do it. As I said with my buddy/brother (and he's African American, if that pertains to other difficulties he's had growing up, seeing as this thread is called "Race"). Jail for 3 years. Ex-Drug Dealer, and he's a violent felon. His mother was a prostitute with AIDS, grew up in the projects. Yet after getting out of jail at the age of 21, he goes to community college (got his GED in jail) and interviews at job after job at the same time to become a book keeper. He worked his butt off. After 3-4 years and an associates degree he gets into UConn. He's been at Uconn for 2.5 years, and now in six months he'll have his bachelor's and masters in accounting and that CPA thing. While many major companies wouldn't hire him because of his record (GE Capital and some others), he has a solid job lined up for him right when he gets out of school.
Now imagine if he didn't get in trouble, got better grades in high school, and went to college at the age of 18. Woulda been a much easier road, but either way, through all that adversity, he's reaching his goal. People can achieve. All the resources are there. Libraries, schools, scholarships. The internet. You just have to be willing to work for it and go out and get it.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Excellent post.
A couple of things:
The story about your girlfriend made me think about something. My parents weren't rich. My dad was a steelworker and mom was a housewife. They taught my brother and I the value of hard work and honesty. They wanted us to be better than them.
My wife and I wanted our kids to be better than us.
It's a natural progression that parents need to foster in their kids. We may not have been rich, but our house was clean. My dad didn't miss work. Our meals weren't fancy, but we ate every night. And though out it all, my parents stressed the significance of education.
Think back to the time when a white man could be arrested for educating a black man and the black man could be whipped in public for allowing the white man to educate him. What does that tell you? Knowledge is power! And the whites of that time desperately tried to keep the black man down by not allowing him to be educated.
I find it impossibly ironic when black people do not value education after what has transpired in their past generations. Education is a way out. The opportunities are there. Seize them.
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You know what pays more than "education"? Drugs.
People will always do something illegal if it gets them more money in the short term than something like college.
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The problem w/that is you can get shot in one of your deals. You can also be arrested and be Bubba's .............
I would suggest education.
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Quote:
Some people who make bad decisions will always do something illegal if it gets them more money in the short term than something like college.
Fixed.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Capitalists will always do something illegal if it gets them more money in the short term than something like college.
Fixed.
Fixed.
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Quote:
The problem w/that is you can get shot in one of your deals. You can also be arrested and be Bubba's .............
I would suggest education.
its hard to be educated when you can't afford it. a lot of kids in the hood sell drugs to support families.
i'm not directing this part of the comment to you vers, but people need to stop thinking there's always a way out, or a different option. sometimes, there just isn't.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Touche 
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J/C
Easy for most of us to see tomorrow and the future because we know things will work out in the end.
Take Atticus Finch's advice. Imagine dropping yourself into the shoes of someone who doesn't know if they have a warm meal to eat tonight, a heated home to keep them warm as they sleep, or even a home for them to reside in. Life quickly changes with many unexpected road bumps. It may be easy for most of us to say "Pick yourself up by the bootstraps" when we know the most likely outcome. The reality most of us face isn't the reality most of those living in poor socioeconomic conditions live.
Many of us were blessed in our upbringings. We knew what we could count on. Not many of those in poor socioeconomic conditions know who and what they can count on. You need a solid base to support a resilient attitude. This is what's lost on most. I've seen too many crumble with my own eyes because of a lack of support.
That's as personal I'll be in this thread.
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JC
Some great comments and stories in here.
Yes, there are plenty of cheats. As YTown mentioned, that includes unemployment. I know several people that have gotten it, and all of them milked it the whole way. Many have side income or under the table gigs and make more $$ than they did before. I still support the program, but I think we should reduce the benefit each week to motivate people and reduce the cost.
I'm pretty sure welfare is supposed to be administered at the local level. I've lived in Red States and Blue States. The Scene is the same. I don't think the fraud is a Lib/Rep thing, more a complete lack of accountability.
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The welfare and unemployment systems would be so much improved if we required recipients to do a certain amount of work each week that benefits the community, (like picking up trash, shoveling snow, sweeping sidewalks, cleaning windows in government buildings, helping fix roads, and so on) combined with a program that helps teach those receiving aid job skills, writing skills, conflict resolution, teamwork, etc.
It could be as little as 10 hours of each per week, but it would help pay their way, and also help them develop skills that could help them get, and keep a job. If a person doesn't show up, then they don't get any financial help.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Absolutely. That would be a win-win. Citizens would get a little back for their tax dollars and the scamsters would run for the hills.
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Color me naive... I don't think I know a single person who has scammed the system as described. No one in my family has ever done such a thing.
My wife received unemployment relief for about 4 months when she was 'downsized' out of a job, but never stopped looking for another gig. Her new job paid less, but we felt liberated as soon as her paychecks started rolling in. We HATED taking that money, even though we'd both 'paid into the system' for years.
I guess we're lucky... we simply don't know the kinds of people who'd do such a thing.
Wow.
[shakes head slowly]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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j/c Having moved to Tennessee just recently, I have learned about a bill advocated by the Gov. I think such things may go a long way in helping those who actually feel a higher education may be beyond their grasp, reconsider their options. I applaud Gov. Haslam for such a plan and it seems to be getting bi-partisan support. Tennessee governor wants to make community college free http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govb...y-college-free/
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Where at in Tennessee, Pit?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Smyrna. About 15 miles SE of Nashville.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850 |
Cool we will be heading down that way in Oct. for ten days. Maybe we can meet up and watch the Browns game at a local watering hole
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I'll be in Knoxville for about 2 weeks at the end of May. Not sure if I will be able to visit, though.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
The culture has to change, Swish.
You are not going to be generationally successful if you sell drugs. You can be successful throughout generations if you accept education as your savior. It truly is w/out dispute. Those who keep relying on illegal methods to survive will thrive for awhile, but will ultimately fail.
It's about education, Swish. It's about morals. It's about work ethic. Until that changes, nothing will change.
That might sound racist. That may sound like I am a Republican. That may sound like I have never experienced poverty on the front line. None are true.
I have hope for the poor. They can work their way up. The corrupted rich capitalists that CHS spoke of................well...........I have no hope for.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I will start with your direct question.. Quote:
does race have an advantage in this country?
Yes. I do believe that all things being equal, your socio-economic starting point in life is more important to your future success than race but race does play a part.
That's where the train leaves the tracks because your socio-economic starting point in life is highly influenced by many decades where your ancestor's economic success WAS based on race. So in short, black people collectively are starting with a disadvantage, not as much because they are black in 2014.. but because their family has been black forever so they are less likely to have the same starting point as the average white person.
From the day we are born in this country, in theory, we have the same opportunity.. and I generally believe that to be true but we certainly don't all have the same odds of success.
I had middle class parents, a mom and a dad, all 4 of my grandparents within a few miles who had decent jobs, a decent house, never went hungry, saw my father work 1, 2, sometimes 3 jobs to provide for us and so my mom wouldn't have to work, took vacations, they were involved in my school work, they never missed one of my games, they knew all of my teachers by name, it was assumed from the day I was born that I would go to college, they knew my friends and my friends parents.
Somewhere, on the same day that I was born, a black baby was born to a 17 year old, single, inner city mother with no real job skills... to say we had the same "opportunity" is ridiculous. Is it possible that black baby grew into a successful business person who makes as much or more than I do? Yea, it's possible but it's not likely.
A black baby and a white baby born in 2014 into nice families who live in the same nice neighborhood and have access to the same schools right now have a reasonable chance at an equal outcome... and that is why I say socio-economic factors are far more important in this day and age than is race.
Disclaimer: Racism still exists, I just don't believe it's a huge limiting factor to economic success if all other things are equal.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
What an excellent post. Absolutely spot-on.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,336
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,336 |
Quote:
Disclaimer: Racism still exists, I just don't believe it's a huge limiting factor to economic success if all other things are equal.
100% agreed
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991 |
Quote:
So in short, black people collectively are starting with a disadvantage, not as much because they are black in 2014.. but because their family has been black forever so they are less likely to have the same starting point as the average white person.
Please define 'average white person'. Do you mean a man like me, who grew up the son of an enlisted man, and lived in base housing most of his young life. (I honestly didn't know there was such a thing as a civilian until I was 10, which is the first time my dad bought a house) Possibly you mean the kid that was brought up in a 4 bedroom home, never shared a room, and had a college fund from birth.
I grew up poor, and I'm not rich now. I have worked all my life for what I have, and I've been kicked about by life some too. Through it all, I've kept my ethics, try to do my best at my job, and look for better opportunities. I try to increase my level of education, but I've only got a two year degree. My parents were neither rich nor poor enough to send me to college, so I did it myself. Am I that much more special because I'm white? No one has ever given me anything because I'm white. I'd like to know exactly what an average white person is.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Race(bring your honest opinion)
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