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if a teen is the child of a mother that had him at 17-18 years old, no father, and the grandparents are rarely there,
who's fault is that? THATS my whole point. we keep saying there's always a way out, when the root of the problem is kids who don't know any better.
and thats a society problem. we as a society keep trying to put bandaids on the problem instead of getting knee deep in surgery to fix the root of the issue.
Because I'm someone who makes enough to pay federal income tax, this problem becomes mine.
But whose fault is it? It's the 17-18 year old girl who got pregnant with a boy. Because that's what someone who is older who doesn't take care of their responsibilities is, nothing but a boy. To me, the measure of a man is how he takes care of his responsibilities. Not how tough you are, how many girls you impregnate, whether you can dunk a basketball or impress anyone. You want to impress me, take care of your responsibilities. And you can't take care of those responsibilities in prison. So the life of crime is a life for kids.
So it should be her problem and his problem, not my problem. But that's whose fault it is. The government won't fix this issue. This is a problem that needs to be fixed in these communities. Males need to step up and be men, and girls need to find men and realize that getting pregnant with low down losers does no one any good.
The government will never fix this. Families and communities need to fix this.
A strong family structure will generate more success than the government ever will.
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some say the education system is fine because we throw money at it.
let me tell you how crap excuse and dodging of the problem that is. in high school, i went to JFK, cleveland municipal school district.
I'd like to see the amount of education tax dollars per student in Cleveland's school district. As someone who has experience in the education system, as I said before, I've found that inner city schools are funded well. The money might not be budgeted correctly, but they spend as much as anyone else when it comes down to how many students there are. Now if that money isn't being spent correctly, then the mayor, city council, board of education, etc. needs to be thrown out of office. Cleveland does receive 6 million dollars in ear marks from state funding I believe. Just read that on the internet trying to find statistics on what I said. Couldn't find the stats easily, but I found that. I did find statistics of Chicago earlier, and as I said, they fund their schools better than the rest of Illinois, how that's budgeted is another question.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 04/04/14 10:58 AM.
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The problem has been pretty well nailed down to the young girls irresponsibly having babies. This happens in all races, but is noticeably worse in some, but not all, minorities.
It is accepted, and even recommended, in some communities moreso than others. That needs to stop. This change must occur WITHIN the affected communities.
We, as a society, have made this behavior financially rewarding. We pay them money to have these babies. This also needs to stop. Cut off all such finds, and the problem will solve itself within a single generation. Instead of seeing their older friends with their own apartment, an income, and several kids, younger poor girls would be attending the funerals of these women's neglected children.
That's what used to happen in the days before it was decided that "help" needed to be provided. Unmarried minors with babies were fairly rare.
Some will call this unduly harsh. We are making the problem WORSE every single day. Every tick of the clock adds another child almost certainly doomed to the problems outlined so thoroughly already in this thread. We are NOT going to have enough "encounter farms", or whatever program you wish to dream up, to even make a dent until we address the root of the problem.
Lots of you can now complain about my proposed solution. I say that unless you've got another one that will work, you are wasting your time, and mine, and adding to the problem. Tick, tick, tick.
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Quote:
The problem has been pretty well nailed down to the young girls irresponsibly having babies. This happens in all races, but is noticeably worse in some, but not all, minorities.
But I don't think it's fair to blame this all on young girls. Plenty of blame needs to fall on the males who make the babies as well. It does take two to tango after-all.
The male role model in the inner city poor community is pretty much non-existent. It's very very sad. Men who completely neglect their responsibilities. That is a major issue. And once again, a community issue. These girls need to also see what a real man is and what to look for in a man.
Boys have no one to look up to, and girls have no one to give an example as to what to look for
But I do agree, the system creates abuse and complacency. I just think that blaming the whole reason on girls is wrong, as it takes two to make a baby
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I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are a lot of inner city Black young men who tie up a large part of their self esteem in how many children they have. (White and Hispanic young men may as well, but I haven't seen that as much in my own experience)
This mindset has to change for the rest to change.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Lots of you can now complain about my proposed solution. I say that unless you've got another one that will work, you are wasting your time, and mine, and adding to the problem. Tick, tick, tick.
The way you phrase this presupposes your solution would be effective.
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It worked in the past, as I stated. It is also the opposite of what we are doing now, which clearly is not working.
If you have some legitimate reason to state that it would not work, put it forward and I will dissect it for you.
If you simply wish to continue your established pattern of trolling, lying, and being morally bankrupt, then carry on.
As for putting the burden on the young men, as well, if you simply consider fairness, then there is a point to be made there. However, if you understand the nature of the human animal you realize that this is wasted effort. The men can walk away from the problem, the women can't. There is a reason that it has been up to the woman to say "no" for several thousand years. Human nature just isn't politically correct.
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If you simply wish to continue your established pattern of trolling, lying, and being morally bankrupt, then carry on.
If it's all the same, I'd like to hear more about your plan to starve children to death.
We can get back to my moral bankruptcy after that.
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Since it needs to be covered, I'll give it a go.
When some irresponsible young girl has her third or fourth child, and society as a whole refuses to take care of it for her, society, and the individuals composing it, are said to be "starving the child". In actuality, they are no more "starving the child" than they are depriving it of air. No overt act occurs, no effort is made to PREVENT food from reaching this child.
It is a recognition of where the responsibility lies, which is not with society but with the mother who has made some very poor decisions. "I'm sorry YOU PICKED a bum, how is that my problem?" Now, to absolve that mother of the responsibility, to completely relieve her of her obligations as a parent, is to Teach, Train, and Create More irresponsible parents. There is simply no downside to their behavior, and significant reward.
It has been pretty well established that young, single, unskilled, irresponsible mothers usually create a negative environment for their children. Very highly likely to be poor, have short lives, an unpleasant existence, and many die violently. We already have a couple generations in to this and are headed for several more. How many will die, and how many will suffer, over the next 50 years? What conceivable mechanism do you propose which will act to end, minimize, or even prevent from growing, this cycle?
Cut of all the money completely. Some children, whose parents fail to feed them, may die. The cycle will be ended. There will be no profit motive in having babies, there will be no way to shirk or be unaware of the responsible behavior required to be a parent. Acceptable behavior will be clearly defined, no longer by the community, which has completely failed to do so, but by society as a whole. Society is completely failing to define acceptable parenting, as well.
Compare the numbers of dead over a short time period versus the numbers of dead over 100 years of "helping", I believe my plan comes out ahead. Add in the lesser likelihood of impoverished upbringing, the increase in "good parenting", which will reduce crime and improve schools just because the parents give a crap instead of not caring, I think it's pretty obvious.
When some northern state cut off over 10,000 people from Welfare, many were whining that "children would starve". Adults, too. "These people NEED our help! They can't survive without us!" Not one single, solitary individual starved. Not one.
If you want someone to act like an adult, the first thing you have to do is stop treating them like a child.
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The point of welfare isn't to help people, or get them back on their feet.
Is there a percentage of the population that uses it as such a tool?
Yes, but it's a very small number.
Welfare is a placation tool of the marginalized. We don't want or need about 10-15% of the population in our economy. They're not equipped for it, and we don't intend to equip them. We have no use for them in our economy. Welfare is a carrot for them to stay down and shut up.
Your plan isn't only illogical and against the point of the exercise, but it's also depraved and borderline insane (which isn't really a surprise).
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The culture has to change, Swish.
You are not going to be generationally successful if you sell drugs. You can be successful throughout generations if you accept education as your savior. It truly is w/out dispute. Those who keep relying on illegal methods to survive will thrive for awhile, but will ultimately fail.
It's about education, Swish. It's about morals. It's about work ethic. Until that changes, nothing will change.
That might sound racist. That may sound like I am a Republican. That may sound like I have never experienced poverty on the front line. None are true.
I have hope for the poor. They can work their way up. The corrupted rich capitalists that CHS spoke of................well...........I have no hope for.
i get what you're saying, but perhaps you not quite getting what i'm saying.
some poor kids, even if their white, sometimes have no choice but to sell drugs to support their family.
I don't think you get what I am saying.
They do have a CHOICE!!! I have provided examples of having a choice. My wife had a choice. Her sister had a choice. Her brother had a choice. Heck, I had a choice. You had a choice.
We all have choices. Some families educate their children to make better choices. Other families are more interested in their own personal gratification than in raising their children properly.
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race plays little to no part in it.
I don't know.................it sure as heck did when I was a kid. African Americans faced terrible discrimination. I remember a time when a black family moved into our all-white neighborhood. The first day, all the white kids played w/the A. Am. boy and girl. The next day, the rest of the white kids in the neighborhood were not allowed to play w/the black kids. My brother and I went to my mom and dad and asked what should we do. Our parents asked if the black kids were bad. Did they cuss? Were they bullies? We answered, "no." They asked if they were good kids? We answered, "yes." They then asked if there was any good reason why the other white kids were not permitted to play w/the black kids? We said, "no." We said, "but if we play w/the black kids, we will lose our white friends." They replied, "If so, are they really your friends?"
They then said, "We won't tell you what to do, other than to do the right thing." My brother and I chose to keep playing w/our black friends.
On the other hand, I actually think that blacks have more rights today than other groups. I see it in school every day. I see how California has passed a law saying that students should not be written up if they cuss out a teacher because the majority of the students being written up for this offense were black. Say what?
Sorry, my man...............but I see too many black people w/their hands out. I see them being given all sorts of opportunities and not taking advantage of them and still crying about racism. It's old. It's tired. It's over. Time to start taking accountability for your own actions.
With that said, my pupils are are 70% black. Most of them are hard-working and good citizens. They don't blame race. They just work.
Please don't blame the system for the problems of the poor. I actually think we give too much support to the poor. Heck, we had kids arrive via taxi cab from 20 miles away at my last school. It's part of the "Homeless Act." Really? You can ride a bus to a school in your area, but if you say you are homeless, a taxi will pick you up and deliver you to another part of town? Really?
We provided free tutoring service to kids who failed the End of Grade tests. We gave them snacks at first. All kinds of computer programs. Tons of books. Manpower. Later, we also fed them dinner. Who pays for that? Meanwhile, they throw food on the floor, are disrespectful, and still fail the tests...........because they don't give a damn. It's called "entitlement."
In my experience, it is the very rich and the very poor who demand to be entitled. They are the ones who refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. The middle class pays the bills. And the upper middle class are the ones who continually strive to make the world a better place.
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sorry if i'm not quite understanding this.
so you're upset because the homeless kids are being taxi'd to school? what are they suppose to do? not go? you know some parts of the country, school buses won't even go because the area where some kids live at is too dangerous.
i get where you're coming from when it comes to poor people, but i'm sorry, there's no way you can place the blame on the kids. kids don't have a choice to be poor.
most of the blacks in the inner city/poor areas are entitled. but most of the blacks in the suburbs aren't. the reason i say race doesn't play such a big part is because i'm personally seeing more and more mix up of races in the hood because of the economy. everybody is living in the same crap hole, whites, blacks, hispanics.
see the problem is you say we give too much support for the poor, but i hope we never cut it, just monitor it better, because less support means more homeless kids. i just can't accept that. not everybody can be saved, but a lot sure can.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I am upset because they are not really homeless. They live w/grandma and claim to be homeless and instead of going to the school in there neighborhood, you know, on the bus........they claim they are homeless and are taxied to the top school in the district. Who do you think pays for that? It's dishonest. Do you understand that?
I am placing the blame on the parents, not the kids. They are not raising their kids properly.
The kids do have a choice. Every day, I tell them about choices. You can choose to work or you can choose to be lazy. You can choose to behave or misbehave. You can choose to be a good citizen or not. You have choices. Choose wisely.
I did not say that. I am saying that the poor receive more help than the middle class kids. The schools in the ghetto have better technology than in the middle class neighborhoods. They get free breakfast and lunch. They get after school tutoring programs.
My kids never got that. I never got that.
Why? Because we weren't poor? Is that fair?
You really have no idea how biased it is. You think you know. You wanna make a case for rich vs poor and black vs white, but you have no clue as to how much our educational system w/the backing of our government favors the poor and blacks and discriminates against the middle class and suburbian whites.
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Phil, you got nothing but a one-track rebuttal, you offer absolutely nothing as an alternative, and you suggest we are essentially maintaining the marginalized as some sort of pets or livestock?
Well, at least you're off the small penis kick, that was getting old. Still the same old troll, you got nothing new in the tank and you're just boring instead of amusing.
People are becoming more aware of the problem, and what the real, practical solutions are. IMO the money will run out before enough have the guts to do what is necessary, but with no more money it happens anyway and the question is moot.
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I don't think the situation is as easy to escape as you're making it, Vers. That's what I tried explaining in my PM.
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j/c
If a woman has a child that she cannot provide for - for whatever reason - then she should not be permitted to have another child. Tubal ligation or implant...take your pick.
If a man fathers a child that he cannot provide for - for whatever reason - then he should not be permitted to father another child. Vasectomy or castration...take your pick.
Those are the only answers to this problem that could work...self-accountability and common sense went out the window long ago.
If society is left to deal with the problem, then society should be allowed to fix the problem.
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Phil, you got nothing but a one-track rebuttal, you offer absolutely nothing as an alternative, and you suggest we are essentially maintaining the marginalized as some sort of pets or livestock?
Well, at least you're off the small penis kick, that was getting old. Still the same old troll, you got nothing new in the tank and you're just boring instead of amusing.
People are becoming more aware of the problem, and what the real, practical solutions are. IMO the money will run out before enough have the guts to do what is necessary, but with no more money it happens anyway and the question is moot.
I don't think what he is saying is that far off base at all. I don't agree with him to the extent that the near sole purpose of welfare is to keep that particular sector perpetually isolated, but I do agree that it is probably the biggest underlying purpose.
The way I read your solution, it presupposes that the mothers will simply allow themselves/their children to starve. Looking at human instinct though, when it comes down to survival, you will do what you believe you need to do to survive. If you don't have food, you set your mind on getting food. A true deprivation of welfare to that particular demographic would have an inverse effect on costs in other areas (crime, etc.). That demographic would no longer keep its mouth shut in Phil's analogy.
So, say for instance, a Mother and her children don't get any welfare/benefits. She steals or engages in other illegal activity to make money/get food. She gets arrested. Now the crime rate is higher and Children Services becomes flooded with kids - still costing society.
Would you rather just leave the kids to fend for themselves after their mom gets arrested?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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j/c
I've wrestled with this problem for a very long time. I have no real idea what the solution is. On one hand I've considered the possibility of having a "max benefit" when it comes to government assistance. Where with one child you get the maximum allowance of assistance.
With each additional child, your benefits actually decrease. With a one time cash bonus option of having your tubes tied after the birth of one child. I know it sounds like quite a hand out to actually give someone a cash payout for such a thing.
Yet in the grand scheme of things, such a program would eliminate the need to support multiple children that are not properly cared for in a continuing revolving door for the course of their lifetime.
You can't simply starve children and we can't continue this vicious cycle generation after generation. I'm not saying this is a rational solution, but at some point options must be brought to the table.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But, that's what financial aid advisors/coordinators are for at college. And the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so you just bother a financial aid person until you get your answers/figure out what you want
College financial aid is right up there with the "Scooter Store". If you got federal dollars we'll sell you anything.
The students who got aid often did their university a favor as well as themselves.
Student loans on the other hand are just plain and complete rip-offs. The majority are still paying off loans with low paying jobs, because they were told all through school that to get a good job to had to graduate college.
Of course one major reason is those jobs no longer exist in this country.
Last edited by rockdogg; 04/05/14 09:34 AM.
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Well, at least you're off the small penis kick, that was getting old.
I'm asking earnestly, and not out of condescension, as I'm not exactly sure what your grasp on reality is...
...but you are aware that it was you, not me, who went on nonsensical rants about ice cream cones and small penises, yes?
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Student loans on the other hand are just plain and complete rip-offs. The majority are still paying off loans with low paying jobs, because they were told all through school that to get a good job to had to graduate college.
Of course one major reason is those jobs no longer exist in this country.
Agreed. The idea is to go to college with a plan to get you where you want to go. Sometimes you're better off going to community college for the simple courses, working (and paying off some of that tuition), getting some life experience, and then moving on to the major universities.
Getting an education isn't going to cut it anymore, and you have to think rationally about what you're gonna do and the situation you're in.
I went to a private college, 38 grand a year after financial grants or whatever, and I was lucky enough to be an only child that had parents who had planned all along to pay for my undergrad. I did go through with a plan, to be a history teacher, and found out about 3 years into school that's not what I wanted to do. Too late (I didn't want to embarrass myself by being a "super senior" and not graduate with my friends), so I stuck with it, I got my degree, I taught for a year and realized it still wasn't what I wanted. 160 grand of education to become a teacher (dumb), and find out that's not even what I wanted to do (even worse). Luckily, that's a hit my parents took. I was blessed. Although I like to think that if I had to pay my own way, I'd have come up with a better plan.
Anyway, I had to start over again with my masters. And from there, I realized that I need to specialize in what I wanted to do. It's worked out very well. I went to a school that has one of the highest job placement rates in the country. Something most people don't think about. (I went into the maritime industry, I got a third mate's license, and I work on a boat now, working 180 days a year and making 90k. More than enough to work on a 10 year plan of paying off my student loans, live comfortably, help take care of my g/f, and save up for a solid down payment on a house. All this while being able to go to Cubs and Bulls games occasionally and go out to a decent dinner once a week.)
FYI: If anyone has kids looking for what they might want to do, check out the maritime academies. There's a lot of money to be made in the Gulf of Mexico right now and the petroleum industry. It is something not discussed on the news, but we will be one of the biggest oil producers in the world VERY soon. There's a ton of oil being found with these deep water rigs and such. Between that and the shale, we will export far more than we import. And pretty soon, we should simply put a tarrif on all imported oil. But that's something else. Anyway, it's a huge, growing industry. And it pays well. Just working on an oil rig will start you at 20$ an hour plus food and board. It's hard work, more dangerous than working at a desk, but there's upward mobility and it's specialized.
Anyway, biggest point being. I realized that you have to be specialized in this economy and balance tuition vs outcome when selecting your course of action. Don't go to an expensive school to be a teacher. And don't go to an expensive school, paying full tuition (if you can't afford it), to get a degree in English. My buddy did that. Went to Boston University, 50 grand a year to get an English degree. And now he volunteers and works at an afterschool program. Pretty big waste of money.
Having a plan, thinking it over, making sense of the tuition that you'll be paying, and following through is what's going to lead to success. Not just going to college for the sake of going to college.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 04/05/14 11:32 AM.
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