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A big credit goes to Hoyer and his preparation and having the team going into the game with the WILL TO WIN...with the BELIEF that they will win. A little credit goes to Thursday National football to keep the life going to.
LOL. This is the most ridiculous attempt to pump up a player I've ever read on here, man.
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and insult my intelligence when I stated why I think what I think - without some counter logic besides he played one quarter and we were behind 7-0.
You insult our intelligence with your above "logic" and yet wish to refute the fact that Hoyer was LOSING the game when he went out, and despite his efforts at such, without him on the field at all, we came back to win?
Give us all a break.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Hoyer doesn't prepare the game plans.
Is this a comedy routine...just where did I say he prepares the game plan. What he does is help prepare the team to EXECUTE the game plan.
I deleted the next few paragraphs...not cause of foul language. But I thought I would teach you something. But all I will get is another Hissy fit. Yeah thanks for the football...it must be I have a "LOVE AFFAIR" with Hoyer. So I'll stop here. Enjoy your ignorance....yep We won that Buffalo game Despite Hoyer.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I heard Hoyer also put a magic spell on the Bills to help us win.
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Here's the way I see it.
Hoyer deserves a chance to start. He'll either be an above average starter or the best back up we've had since Testaverde!
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You're cracking me up Tab. Why so serious?  If you want to believe that in addition to Hoyer learning the game plan and preparing himself that he also got everyone else prepared to play winning football then fine. That's your opinion. I think it's a laughable opinion but whatever... you have every right to believe that. Personally, I think the coaches did FAR more of the preparing players to win than Hoyer did. In fact, I think the coaches helped prepare Hoyer to try to win. Unfortunately, Hoyer was LOSING before he got hurt but let's not dwell on the technicalities. Maybe Hoyer prepared Weeden to win too? Man, I think we need to get Hoyer a headset and just let him be the coach... guy is A.... MAZING! 
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Here's the way I see it.
Hoyer deserves a chance to start. He'll either be an above average starter or the best back up we've had since Testaverde!
I agree that he deserves a chance to start, just like Alex Tanney deserves the same shot. I'm still confused by the lovefest (not targeted at any specific member) for Hoyer on these boards. In one game, he threw 3 TDs, 3 INTs, and took 3 sacks. In his second game, he threw 2 TDs, 0 INTs, and took 3 sacks. In his third game, he got injured so early that he had no impact on the outcome one way or another. I didn't see anything from him during his short time on the field that leads me to believe he is starter caliber. He looked like an average NFL QB who could be relied upon as a quality backup. We are all so starved for good QB play that I think a lot of board members have blown his performance up way too much and are comfortable with heading into the season with him as the anointed starter based on false memories of greatness. Let's look at Hoyer's time in the NFL and what he's done in his limited appearances.
2013--Already mentioned above
2012--30/53, 330 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 4 sacks in 2 games
2011--1/1 in 1 game
2010--7/13, 1 TD in 1 game
2009--8/12, 1 sack in 1 game
I desperately hope the team drafts a QB early with the intention of that player being their franchise QB for years to come while Hoyer is the backup because Hoyer hasn't done one thing to make me think he's anything more than that.
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It's just what we saw, man, just what we saw. I saw a guy who point blank made me feel like Brian Sipe was back! So that's all I got for you. I for one enjoyed every down he played due to that feeling.
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OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD
There is no love fest for Hoyer.
There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.
Nothing more than that
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD
There is no love fest for Hoyer.
There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.
Nothing more than that
Yeah, there is a lovefest. You may not be part of it, but I have seen it many times.
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Completely agree with that. It did feel so much better having a competent QB playing for us. Really was night and day compared to what we've had in the recent past. That I think is the problem. A quality back-up QB will look like a pro bowler compared to what we've had here recently. Can Hoyer eventually be the guy? YES. Are the odds in his favor? NO. lol.
I'm hoping for the best but I try not to talk myself into believing I can somehow already know Hoyer is the guy based on his limited playing time with us. Perfect example is some peeps trying hard to get us to believe Hoyer won 3 games... that's a joke man. He didn't even play 3 games. It's just a joke.
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See that's where you're being hypocritical Tab. It seems you feel if we disagree with you "we live in ignorance"? Since when was an opposing opinion living in ignorance? You know as well as I do, that we've seen LOTS of back up QB's, both here and on other teams, come in and light it up for a couple of games and then fall apart. It's happened over and over again in the NFL. IF Hoyer were " a complete QB" in all phases of the game, I may tend to agree with you. But that's not what I saw. It's about perception Bud. I saw a kid with average skills that played average football. Which is all we really needed to win "some games". After witnessing horrendous play by Weeden, it did help the team win and did seem to help the attitude on the field. But to claim when that QB crumpled on the field, that "his presence was still felt" is quite a reach IMO. While we feel differently about this, it doesn't mean either of us are "living in ignorance" and I've actually come to expect a little more from you than that. But I've been disappointed before so I'll live. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD
There is no love fest for Hoyer.
There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.
Nothing more than that
Yeah, there is a lovefest. You may not be part of it, but I have seen it many times.
There are how many posters on this board, 200 or so. What do you see, 2 or 3 guys saying they love hoyer? I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..
I think you just hurt Tab's feelings. 
 
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I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game? A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game? A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready
Actually, what folks are trying to point out with those things is that we don't know enough to have any real context on him... BECAUSE he's only finished two games.
Some people are super high on him, and in the process they are ignoring that while he was markedly better than what he replaced, he really wasn't all that great in his short spell.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game? A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready
Actually, what folks are trying to point out with those things is that we don't know enough to have any real context on him... BECAUSE he's only finished two games.
Some people are super high on him, and in the process they are ignoring that while he was markedly better than what he replaced, he really wasn't all that great in his short spell.
+1
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So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?
Which is exactly the point. nobody said to throw him out. Nobody said he won't be a success.
But stating what we've seen thus far isn't a bad thing. And no matter how you or anyone else wishes to spin it, there have been many back-up QB's who have came in and played well for a few games, then folded like cotton sheets.
That doesn't mean Hoyer will. What it does mean as there is as much or more of a chance this will happen than won't.
While nobody is advocating that Hoyer be "thrown out" as you seem to claim, some are putting a lot of stock in two complete games. One even wishes to give credit to Hoyer when he left the game with the Browns behind for the third win.
As you have pointed out, some middle ground should be used in regards to Hoyer. Since you claim you need to see a full season worth of starts before you know, surely you're not suggesting people be sold on him with two complete games under his belt are you?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Brian Hoyer isn't a rookie. This isn't some highly touted 1st round pick that just got to the NFL and we are all knee jerk judging on 3 games (2 games actually). There is history here and as hard as it is to succeed in the NFL it is even harder to bump around from multiple different teams and then turn into a franchise QB. Just so rare. Oh, and he's coming off a major injury but whatever lol. Ok, so let's stop playing with words and put a number to our optimism/pessimism. Then we'll really know where we each stand... I'll go first. As of today, I think Hoyer has a 20% chance of being our guy. A 1/5 chance is really not that low given Hoyer's history so I consider myself an optimist. I like the kid but I just think it's a long shot. If Hoyer ends up being the guy I won't have been wrong (by the way). This is about probability and I think he has a real shot. Where are you at (said to all posters)?
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So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?
I haven't seen anyone saying to throw him out.
What have you been reading?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Ok...I'll bow down to your - "AIN'T SO DEBATE"
you tell me smart ass...just why did we win the 3 games he started in a 4-12 season???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Since you claim you need to see a full season worth of starts before you know, surely you're not suggesting people be sold on him with two complete games under his belt are you?
Oddly enough yes  How else are we gonna know what we got? I do think we should draft a QB, just not in the first round. I feel like any QB we could get in this draft will need a least a yr, maybe two before they would over take BH. Now if we could get him at a good spot then yeah, your always looking to upgrade. BH is still young enough to last another 5 yrs. maybe more. Hope it all works out.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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I'll ignore your name calling for the moment.. the other Refs may not.
Simple answer: We played better than (at the time) bad opponents.
Vikings: Hoyer did good, but he also threw three INT's. We got LUCKY to be able to overcome that (them having three turnovers to our four was big), and Josh Gordon coming back and going off certainly helped. Catching them off guard with Spencer Lanning throwing a TD pass helped, too.
Cinci: Hoyer had a GREAT game. Simply outstanding defense holding Cincy to 6 points
Buffalo: Weeden, Gordon, the D keeping Buffalo out of the end zone in the 4th. I can GUARANTEE that we didn't win because of some mystical preparation by Hoyer "getting the team ready".
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What have you been reading?
I guess the comments about how we need to draft the next big QB and give BH the back-up spot. Anyone we draft this yr. will not be ready to take over for at least a yr. maybe more IMO. We are better served to go with BH until we can be sure of what we have in a Rookie. The feeling among some is that Teddy B or Johnny Football is gonna come in and light it up, hey hope it happens, but I'm not holding my breath.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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..and the myth of Saint Hoyer keeps being spread
What? I said that we have to draft a rookie QB high in the first round and that his body of work was too small to be able to count on him.
Am I not allowed to evaluate what I saw in the games he played? Do I have to "only" criticize like some of you are?
Am I not allowed to look at both the positives and negatives in order to not being one of the Hoyer Myth Builders?
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Hoyer was impressive. More impressive than his stats indicate. The shame of the entire thing is that his body of work is way, way too small. For this reason, we must draft a QB high. I really feel bad for the kid. I root for underdogs and he is certainly that. What a bad freaking break.
I do think he can succeed because of some of the things he displayed last year, but we simply can not count on that to come to fruition.
Oh...........and as far as the number of wins go.............who really cares?
I threw the "who cares how many games he won" comment in at the end of my post in response to all the arguing over if he should be credited w/2 or 3 wins. I didn't want to make two posts on the subject at that time.
But again, who cares? Really?
Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, this quote seems very much like a contradiction in terms.
You state that his body of work was too small. That we can't count on some of the things he had shown last year to come to fruition, then ask who cares how many games he won.
To me they're directly connected. Had Hoyer remained healthy and done well, we wouldn't have any of these questions. His body of work wouldn't have been small and he would have won more games.
To me those are all connected.
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J/C ..... kinda.  When I look back at the Minnesota game, and some things really jump out at me. Hoyer really seemed to understand the offense better, and made very quick decisions./throws. Those throws weren't always 100% on target. We had traded Trent, and the perception was that we were tanking. Other teams should never take an opponent for granted, but when it's all over ESPN that the Browns had given up ... that had to have an impact. Hoyer threw 3 INT in that game. The Vikings had only 12 INT all season long. We had a pair of trick special teams plays that directly led to a TD. Without both of those, we probably lose. We still looked more competent with Hoyer at QB. I cannot just move past that. He really seemed to understand what was going on everywhere. As far as the Bengals game, Hoyer did play a much better game. However, let's not forget that 3/4 of the Bengals defense was out for that game. That has to have had a major impact. The defense really stifled the Bengals offense, and that's really the predominant reason why we won that game. However, Hoyer played well, and again seemed to understand exactly what was going on all around him on the field. I think that his ball placement was better in this ball, but obviously he had fewer big plays. I love the leadership that Hoyer showed. I think that his on field presence is so far above any other QB we put on the field last year that it's like High School vs College. He also showed amazing pre-snap ability, and understanding of the play. He was able to make sure that everyone was lined up properly, and move players when they weren't. His ball placement on short throws was, for the most part, excellent. He threw some slants that were absolutely perfect. (one was the slant that Gordon dropped in the Bills game, that would have been a huge play) However, the further down the field a play goes, the less accurate he seemed to be with his placement and timing. Maybe that improves with time and experience, and maybe not. However, I do worry that he might be a guy who is somewhat a one trick pony, like Kelly Holcomb was. Holcomb could make the pre-snap reads, and quick throws, but that was about it. Once teams caught on to that, they finished him, I am absolutely not saying that this is the path Hoyer will take, but there is some concern that it could happen. (for me, anyway) I think that Hoyer deserves to be in the conversation for starting QB, and I think that he will be, but we absolutely cannot, and should not, pin 100% of our hopes on him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.
That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?
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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.
That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?
There are NO QBs in this draft who are NFL ready...no Andrew Luck or RGIII caliber QBs in this draft. Manziel completed only two seasons in college while Bridgewater and Bortles are juniors coming out early.
I expect the Browns to sign a veteran QB (maybe Grossman) as well as draft a QB, with both competing with Hoyer for the starting job. But after the final pre season game, I would not be surprised if the QB depth chart had the rookie ranked as the #3 QB with the veteran ranked #2 and Hoyer the starter...barring injury.
jmo
Last edited by mac; 04/02/14 06:25 AM.
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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.
That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?
Like I said, unless the rookie is head and shoulders above Hoyer, I think Hoyer should get the nod at this point.
My reason is that I don't think that this year is about this year.. I think that no matter who we draft, they should be given a year to acclimate to the league, to the pace of the game, etc...UNLESS they play so well as to make it impossible for the coaches to do that. If it isn't THAT cut and dry, then sit him. If there is a debate on who is better, or you have to draw straws or flip coins.... sit him.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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We got LUCKY to be able to overcome that
Could have sworn Hoyer led a late drive to have us win that game. Possibly my memory is bad.
Cinci - great game against a good team.
Buffalo - we came in that game with full confidence that we could win - mostly due to Hoyer and the anticipation of his play. We were ready, Coaches try to get us ready every game. But we executed the offense. Weeden didn't lose the game. Fact is we had a new QB after Hoyer went down for future games and the team ON O as well as D just didn't execute. They didn't FOLD or Quit, they simply didn't believe they were going to win. They experienced a totally different vibe out there with Hoyer preparing. I mean you can Laugh at that all you want. Was there not a different VIBE on the field with Hoyer in? Why is it hard to believe that there was a different vibe in practices all through the week.
Football is a very emotionally driven game. And I got news for you - IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN WIN...not Rah Rah stuff...I MEAN deep down Believe. YOU WILL NOT WIN!
I'll give you the Vikings game in that preparation the team was probably curious - as in hey this is a bit different and hey this has a good flow. Ooops another word I should not use FLOW. So so important for an offense. The team feels the FLOW and reacts to it. Defense gets more excited and more determined to make stops to make plays! I guess the word LEADERSHIP should not be used also on the board - we should laugh at that concept too after all its hard to see. And like the earth being flat...IF WE CANNOT SEE IT THEN IT DOESN'T EXIST. So laugh all you want. INSULT me - way much more btw than anything I said. All you want. But guess what...The Earth is Oval.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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I'm just shaking my head here.
I cannot believe that you typed up that much to try to give credit for a win to a guy that barely even appeared in the game, had a 50% completion rate (2 of 4) and only 25 yds passing.... when we were losing with a completely ineffective offense when he went out of the game.
You know what... suuuure. Hoyer won that one for us.
Good job, Hoyer, lol!!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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OP
Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..
I think you just hurt Tab's feelings.
Tabber has a love fest going with Hoyer? Well, if that's the case, then I know ONE.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
They experienced a totally different vibe out there with Hoyer ...
I am taking this slightly out of context, but there was indeed a positive "vibe" with Hoyer under center. It was particularly apparent when Hoyer went down; the "vibe" dramatically changed. And yes, there was improved "FLOW" with Hoyer...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Obviously he didn't play much in the game...shake your head all you wish - not my problem if you cannot grasp what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is statistically they give him the win as he started. But you and others are saying NO HE IS ONLY 2-0 that I n others have NO RIGHT to say 3-0.
I'm saying he was a big part in us winning that game. It is no "COINCIDENCE" that our team played to win - played believing they would win the game.
Its no "Coincidence" that after that game without Hoyer - the team played flat. the team could not finish games. The team simply didn't believe in Weeden nor Campbell. When you say you are SMH - are you then saying this just didn't happen. That this was simply a COINCIDENCE. That the mind set from the preparation for the game with Hoyer as the Leader/QB. That the Defense seemed to play Better. This was not fact but just a Coincidence???
I'm not saying he gets sole credit for that win. I'm saying that if he was not the QB in the Viking game, in the Bengal game and of course not in the Buffalo game - I don't think we have a rats chance of winning that game.
I'm saying to those like yourself who wish to MAKE UP YOUR OWN STATISTIC and say - Correct your post to say what I THINK not what you think, That btw is a BS way to state your opinion. That he was only 2-0 and had nothing to do with that win. Im like hold on here. He had a lot to do with getting that team ready to not only play but to win. But I see discussion is not allowed - Ignorance once again prevails because you cannot make a valid discussion on the subject and logic given...I'm all for discussion. But when you say ITS MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY and even INSULT ME FOR KNOWING WHAT I KNOW.
just do me a big favor. Don't fix any of my opinions. If I stated an incorrect fact please advise me and go ahead and fix it. But you MADE UP YOUR OWN FACT...not me. Cause it indeed is Hoyer 3-0 as starter of the Browns. If you fix it at least give me your reasoning besides .25 played.
there is more to football than that.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,175
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,175 |
Quote:
I'm saying he was a big part in us winning that game. It is no "COINCIDENCE" that our team played to win - played believing they would win the game.
You know... you're right. They did play to win in that game... once he went out. They were playing to lose while he was in there.... glad he fired them up by leaving the game!
He gets 3-0 on a technicality simply because the NFL is stupid in how they record that. Baseball at least realizes truth and gives the credit where it belongs.
Quote:
The team simply didn't believe in Weeden nor Campbell.
I know, that's why they totally folded when Weeden came in after playing SO stellar while Hoyer was in . MmmmmHmmmm. Yup.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Not to mention a QBs won loss record is pretty meaningless to me. It's not like baseball where the pitcher can shut down the other team or hockey where the goalie can play like a brick wall and shut out opponents.
Any way you cut it, unlike the others mentioned, a QB can't overcome poor play by the other members of the team.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Dawg Talker
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Statistically, he was given that third win. Common sense and logical thinking say he got 2 wins.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer says he'll be ready
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